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I have an idea to fix this game:
- Hire a balance team that plays this game at high GM level for years, preferably also played broodwar before too, so they can understand what makes a good RTS meta game. (StarCraft2 has no unit balance anymore, its all about early/mid game economic damage. Units are all about avoiding arrmy and killing workers, sure gives us 50% win ratio, but feels broken).
Army vs Army at even economy is super imbalanced right now.
- Undo the last 3 years of changes. Fix the game from there.
No offense meant, I just feel like patch after patch, more gimmicks are added that break the game.
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Gah i did it again, quote instead of edit, sorry
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I was doing an analysis of Protoss units comparing BW units to Protoss units:
These are the differences that were noteworthy:
-BW Zealots have 10 extra shields (Although SC2 Zealots get charge)
-BW Dragoons do 7 extra damage and have 20 extra shields(though they have have blink)
-BW High Templar do 32 extra damage, have 50 extra shields, build ~5 seconds quicker(though Warpgate covers this), and have the amulet upgrade
-BW Archons have 5 extra damage
-BW Carriers have 4 Armor instead of 2 in SC2, although they do take 24 seconds longer to build. Also BW Intereceptors healed when they returned to the Carrier, and Interceptors automatically retreat into the Carrier at 1/4 shields (or 10 shield points).
In general, BW Protoss units were much beefier, but my assumption is it did take longer to create the ultimate Protoss Army, and the other race's goal was to prevent that in a way. Also in SC2, Protoss have Immortals, Sentries, and Colossus, so thats probably why the other gateway units arent as beefy.
The only opinion I have, since Carriers and Tempests are so similar, we should bring the beefier BW Carrier back. It would certainly help Protoss in their lategame. This is in comparison withe the BW Battlecruiser which actually took longer 20 seconds longer to build and had 50 less health (and can't jump) when comparing to the SC2 Battlecruiser
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On August 30 2020 13:08 AssyrianKing wrote:
In general, BW Protoss units were much beefier, but my assumption is it did take longer to create the ultimate Protoss Army, and the other race's goal was to prevent that in a way.
What's funny is that even in BW with stronger units, Protoss is the least scary at max out/max upgrades. To be fair, vs Carriers Terran is usually trying to hit a timing push before too many are out, but even the "ultimate" Protoss army is more about positioning and good use of spells than raw power.
On August 30 2020 07:20 Snakestyle11 wrote:
StarCraft2 has no unit balance anymore, its all about early/mid game economic damage. Units are all about avoiding arrmy and killing workers, sure gives us 50% win ratio, but feels broken).
I mostly agree with this, but Blizzard thinks it's more exciting this way and are unlikely to change things, unfortunately.
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On August 30 2020 13:08 AssyrianKing wrote:
I was doing an analysis of Protoss units comparing BW units to Protoss units:
These are the differences that were noteworthy:
-BW Zealots have 10 extra shields (Although SC2 Zealots get charge)
-BW Dragoons do 7 extra damage and have 20 extra shields(though they have have blink)
-BW High Templar do 32 extra damage, have 50 extra shields, build ~5 seconds quicker(though Warpgate covers this), and have the amulet upgrade
-BW Archons have 5 extra damage
-BW Carriers have 4 Armor instead of 2 in SC2, although they do take 24 seconds longer to build. Also BW Intereceptors healed when they returned to the Carrier, and Interceptors automatically retreat into the Carrier at 1/4 shields (or 10 shield points).
In general, BW Protoss units were much beefier, but my assumption is it did take longer to create the ultimate Protoss Army, and the other race's goal was to prevent that in a way. Also in SC2, Protoss have Immortals, Sentries, and Colossus, so thats probably why the other gateway units arent as beefy.
The only opinion I have, since Carriers and Tempests are so similar, we should bring the beefier BW Carrier back. It would certainly help Protoss in their lategame. This is in comparison withe the BW Battlecruiser which actually took longer 20 seconds longer to build and had 50 less health (and can't jump) when comparing to the SC2 Battlecruiser
No warp gates. No warp prisms. 12 units selected max.
Units from ALL races were stronger. Lings were stronger, hydras were stronger, siege tanks were stronger.
But yea, protoss problems all come from the power of warp-prisms + warp--gates.
They were almost on the right path to fix this a few years ago, then backed off because of a few reddit posts.
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On August 30 2020 14:36 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 13:08 AssyrianKing wrote:
I was doing an analysis of Protoss units comparing BW units to Protoss units:
These are the differences that were noteworthy:
-BW Zealots have 10 extra shields (Although SC2 Zealots get charge)
-BW Dragoons do 7 extra damage and have 20 extra shields(though they have have blink)
-BW High Templar do 32 extra damage, have 50 extra shields, build ~5 seconds quicker(though Warpgate covers this), and have the amulet upgrade
-BW Archons have 5 extra damage
-BW Carriers have 4 Armor instead of 2 in SC2, although they do take 24 seconds longer to build. Also BW Intereceptors healed when they returned to the Carrier, and Interceptors automatically retreat into the Carrier at 1/4 shields (or 10 shield points).
In general, BW Protoss units were much beefier, but my assumption is it did take longer to create the ultimate Protoss Army, and the other race's goal was to prevent that in a way. Also in SC2, Protoss have Immortals, Sentries, and Colossus, so thats probably why the other gateway units arent as beefy.
The only opinion I have, since Carriers and Tempests are so similar, we should bring the beefier BW Carrier back. It would certainly help Protoss in their lategame. This is in comparison withe the BW Battlecruiser which actually took longer 20 seconds longer to build and had 50 less health (and can't jump) when comparing to the SC2 Battlecruiser
No warp gates. No warp prisms. 12 units selected max. Units from ALL races were stronger. Lings were stronger, hydras were stronger, siege tanks were stronger. But yea, protoss problems all come from the power of warp-prisms + warp--gates. They were almost on the right path to fix this a few years ago, then backed off because of a few reddit posts.
Interesting but I would keep prism as harrasing potential. Same as drop overlords
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On August 30 2020 15:43 followZeRoX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 14:36 Snakestyle11 wrote:On August 30 2020 13:08 AssyrianKing wrote:
I was doing an analysis of Protoss units comparing BW units to Protoss units:
These are the differences that were noteworthy:
-BW Zealots have 10 extra shields (Although SC2 Zealots get charge)
-BW Dragoons do 7 extra damage and have 20 extra shields(though they have have blink)
-BW High Templar do 32 extra damage, have 50 extra shields, build ~5 seconds quicker(though Warpgate covers this), and have the amulet upgrade
-BW Archons have 5 extra damage
-BW Carriers have 4 Armor instead of 2 in SC2, although they do take 24 seconds longer to build. Also BW Intereceptors healed when they returned to the Carrier, and Interceptors automatically retreat into the Carrier at 1/4 shields (or 10 shield points).
In general, BW Protoss units were much beefier, but my assumption is it did take longer to create the ultimate Protoss Army, and the other race's goal was to prevent that in a way. Also in SC2, Protoss have Immortals, Sentries, and Colossus, so thats probably why the other gateway units arent as beefy.
The only opinion I have, since Carriers and Tempests are so similar, we should bring the beefier BW Carrier back. It would certainly help Protoss in their lategame. This is in comparison withe the BW Battlecruiser which actually took longer 20 seconds longer to build and had 50 less health (and can't jump) when comparing to the SC2 Battlecruiser
No warp gates. No warp prisms. 12 units selected max. Units from ALL races were stronger. Lings were stronger, hydras were stronger, siege tanks were stronger. But yea, protoss problems all come from the power of warp-prisms + warp--gates. They were almost on the right path to fix this a few years ago, then backed off because of a few reddit posts. Interesting but I would keep prism as harrasing potential. Same as drop overlords
What is sad about the Warp prism is that the success or failure of a Protoss push depends so much on keeping it alive. The weaker units are balanced by having near-instant frontline reinforcements.
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On August 30 2020 14:36 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 13:08 AssyrianKing wrote:
I was doing an analysis of Protoss units comparing BW units to Protoss units:
These are the differences that were noteworthy:
-BW Zealots have 10 extra shields (Although SC2 Zealots get charge)
-BW Dragoons do 7 extra damage and have 20 extra shields(though they have have blink)
-BW High Templar do 32 extra damage, have 50 extra shields, build ~5 seconds quicker(though Warpgate covers this), and have the amulet upgrade
-BW Archons have 5 extra damage
-BW Carriers have 4 Armor instead of 2 in SC2, although they do take 24 seconds longer to build. Also BW Intereceptors healed when they returned to the Carrier, and Interceptors automatically retreat into the Carrier at 1/4 shields (or 10 shield points).
In general, BW Protoss units were much beefier, but my assumption is it did take longer to create the ultimate Protoss Army, and the other race's goal was to prevent that in a way. Also in SC2, Protoss have Immortals, Sentries, and Colossus, so thats probably why the other gateway units arent as beefy.
The only opinion I have, since Carriers and Tempests are so similar, we should bring the beefier BW Carrier back. It would certainly help Protoss in their lategame. This is in comparison withe the BW Battlecruiser which actually took longer 20 seconds longer to build and had 50 less health (and can't jump) when comparing to the SC2 Battlecruiser
No warp gates. No warp prisms. 12 units selected max. Units from ALL races were stronger. Lings were stronger, hydras were stronger, siege tanks were stronger. But yea, protoss problems all come from the power of warp-prisms + warp--gates. They were almost on the right path to fix this a few years ago, then backed off because of a few reddit posts.
How did they almost fix it ? Never heard this before
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Poll: Do you think warp-gate should :be removed (5) 45% increase cost regarding teleport distance ? (4) 36% revert, i.e increase cooldown regarding teleport distance ? (1) 9% be less effective (1) 9% 11 total votes Your vote: Do you think warp-gate should : (Vote): revert, i.e increase cooldown regarding teleport distance ?
(Vote): increase cost regarding teleport distance ?
(Vote): be less effective
(Vote): be removed
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
On August 30 2020 14:36 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 13:08 AssyrianKing wrote:
I was doing an analysis of Protoss units comparing BW units to Protoss units:
These are the differences that were noteworthy:
-BW Zealots have 10 extra shields (Although SC2 Zealots get charge)
-BW Dragoons do 7 extra damage and have 20 extra shields(though they have have blink)
-BW High Templar do 32 extra damage, have 50 extra shields, build ~5 seconds quicker(though Warpgate covers this), and have the amulet upgrade
-BW Archons have 5 extra damage
-BW Carriers have 4 Armor instead of 2 in SC2, although they do take 24 seconds longer to build. Also BW Intereceptors healed when they returned to the Carrier, and Interceptors automatically retreat into the Carrier at 1/4 shields (or 10 shield points).
In general, BW Protoss units were much beefier, but my assumption is it did take longer to create the ultimate Protoss Army, and the other race's goal was to prevent that in a way. Also in SC2, Protoss have Immortals, Sentries, and Colossus, so thats probably why the other gateway units arent as beefy.
The only opinion I have, since Carriers and Tempests are so similar, we should bring the beefier BW Carrier back. It would certainly help Protoss in their lategame. This is in comparison withe the BW Battlecruiser which actually took longer 20 seconds longer to build and had 50 less health (and can't jump) when comparing to the SC2 Battlecruiser
No warp gates. No warp prisms. 12 units selected max. Units from ALL races were stronger. Lings were stronger, hydras were stronger, siege tanks were stronger. But yea, protoss problems all come from the power of warp-prisms + warp--gates. They were almost on the right path to fix this a few years ago, then backed off because of a few reddit posts.
is not like they were stronger, units damage output vs health was good , what i mean is, units from BW would take longer to be kill therefore more micro management and stuff, in sc2 units die way to fast imo
all units ALL UNITS SHOULD GET A 10% DAMAGE REDUCTION IN SC2.
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On August 30 2020 07:20 Snakestyle11 wrote:
- Hire a balance team that plays this game at high GM level for years, preferably also played broodwar before too, so they can understand what makes a good RTS meta game.
Unfortunately, I don't think gamers are good game designers. It's not that easy to find somebody as talented as Rob Pardo. SC2 would need a very good game designer with a strong vision... but for a 10 years old game , like sc2, I don't think any big changes will happen anyway.
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On August 31 2020 00:34 heqat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 07:20 Snakestyle11 wrote:
- Hire a balance team that plays this game at high GM level for years, preferably also played broodwar before too, so they can understand what makes a good RTS meta game. Unfortunately, I don't think gamers are good game designers. It's not that easy to find somebody as talented as Rob Pardo. SC2 would need a very good game designer with a strong vision... but for a 10 years old game , like sc2, I don't think any big changes will happen anyway.
That makes me sad.. Indeed, there s for sure a place for an old school rts, slower, with no rapid fire and map-control oriented. Not sure also that the final form of the game suits to the oldest players, built in TvZ around the foolish feature of the impossible split... built with spells without cooldown (creep tumors as an obvious lack of professionnalism) and with half of the population dedicated to gather ressources. I only enjoy to watch the strongest players, i.e 5 or 6 TOP EU, with a little bit interest on the divide between KOR and EU.
On August 30 2020 07:20 Snakestyle11 wrote:
- Undo the last 3 years of changes. Fix the game from there.
I don t enjoy your comments sometimes but i agree on this main idea. Then you could also fire two useless workers from start
We deserve to see infested terrans back
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Northern Ireland27351 Posts
On August 30 2020 16:18 AssyrianKing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 14:36 Snakestyle11 wrote:On August 30 2020 13:08 AssyrianKing wrote:
I was doing an analysis of Protoss units comparing BW units to Protoss units:
These are the differences that were noteworthy:
-BW Zealots have 10 extra shields (Although SC2 Zealots get charge)
-BW Dragoons do 7 extra damage and have 20 extra shields(though they have have blink)
-BW High Templar do 32 extra damage, have 50 extra shields, build ~5 seconds quicker(though Warpgate covers this), and have the amulet upgrade
-BW Archons have 5 extra damage
-BW Carriers have 4 Armor instead of 2 in SC2, although they do take 24 seconds longer to build. Also BW Intereceptors healed when they returned to the Carrier, and Interceptors automatically retreat into the Carrier at 1/4 shields (or 10 shield points).
In general, BW Protoss units were much beefier, but my assumption is it did take longer to create the ultimate Protoss Army, and the other race's goal was to prevent that in a way. Also in SC2, Protoss have Immortals, Sentries, and Colossus, so thats probably why the other gateway units arent as beefy.
The only opinion I have, since Carriers and Tempests are so similar, we should bring the beefier BW Carrier back. It would certainly help Protoss in their lategame. This is in comparison withe the BW Battlecruiser which actually took longer 20 seconds longer to build and had 50 less health (and can't jump) when comparing to the SC2 Battlecruiser
No warp gates. No warp prisms. 12 units selected max. Units from ALL races were stronger. Lings were stronger, hydras were stronger, siege tanks were stronger. But yea, protoss problems all come from the power of warp-prisms + warp--gates. They were almost on the right path to fix this a few years ago, then backed off because of a few reddit posts. How did they almost fix it ? Never heard this before
It’s certainly news to me.
I’ve been banging the drum about various tweaks to warp gate or outright removal for nearly a decade now, and I’ve never heard anything to the effect that Blizz were actually looking into making radical changes.
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What kind of radical changes would you like ? Excepted those i proposed above in the poll, i don t see something else ... I would like to hear which changes could be added cause i don t think it s necessary to remove this feature.
Why ? Because it gives an uniqueness feature to the protoss race but it feels as if they had done anything... Why don t give to the player the option to increase his speed recovering max population without the warp-gate, i.e less cooldown when you build units from your gateway.
I don t understand the logic beside that
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On August 31 2020 01:53 Wombat_NornIron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 16:18 AssyrianKing wrote:On August 30 2020 14:36 Snakestyle11 wrote:On August 30 2020 13:08 AssyrianKing wrote:
I was doing an analysis of Protoss units comparing BW units to Protoss units:
These are the differences that were noteworthy:
-BW Zealots have 10 extra shields (Although SC2 Zealots get charge)
-BW Dragoons do 7 extra damage and have 20 extra shields(though they have have blink)
-BW High Templar do 32 extra damage, have 50 extra shields, build ~5 seconds quicker(though Warpgate covers this), and have the amulet upgrade
-BW Archons have 5 extra damage
-BW Carriers have 4 Armor instead of 2 in SC2, although they do take 24 seconds longer to build. Also BW Intereceptors healed when they returned to the Carrier, and Interceptors automatically retreat into the Carrier at 1/4 shields (or 10 shield points).
In general, BW Protoss units were much beefier, but my assumption is it did take longer to create the ultimate Protoss Army, and the other race's goal was to prevent that in a way. Also in SC2, Protoss have Immortals, Sentries, and Colossus, so thats probably why the other gateway units arent as beefy.
The only opinion I have, since Carriers and Tempests are so similar, we should bring the beefier BW Carrier back. It would certainly help Protoss in their lategame. This is in comparison withe the BW Battlecruiser which actually took longer 20 seconds longer to build and had 50 less health (and can't jump) when comparing to the SC2 Battlecruiser
No warp gates. No warp prisms. 12 units selected max. Units from ALL races were stronger. Lings were stronger, hydras were stronger, siege tanks were stronger. But yea, protoss problems all come from the power of warp-prisms + warp--gates. They were almost on the right path to fix this a few years ago, then backed off because of a few reddit posts. How did they almost fix it ? Never heard this before It’s certainly news to me. I’ve been banging the drum about various tweaks to warp gate or outright removal for nearly a decade now, and I’ve never heard anything to the effect that Blizz were actually looking into making radical changes.
I remember people calling for warpgate changes since 2010 but I was never convinced it was needed. Now I'm definitely for something like making wapgate late game tech and just buffing gateway units.
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Northern Ireland27351 Posts
On August 31 2020 02:01 Vision_ wrote:
What kind of radical changes would you like ? Excepted those i proposed above in the poll, i don t see something else ... I would like to hear which changes could be added cause i don t think it s necessary to remove this feature.
Why ? Because it gives an uniqueness feature to the protoss race but it feels as if they had done anything... Why don t give to the player the option to increase his speed recovering max population without the warp-gate, i.e less cooldown when you build units from your gateway.
I don t understand the logic beside that
Some kind of risk/reward tradeoff with gates producing better vs the reinforcement potential of warp gates was something I have pondered over the years, amongst many other things.
Without going down that rabbit hole my post was more about never hearing that Blizzard had ever really looked at the fundamentals of warp gate than discussing my thoughts on the mechanic.
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Didnt they consider making warp prism slow warp-ins at some point and adding an upgrade to unlock faster warp-ins or a requirement? I could be wrong about this, but im pretty sure it was considered but then they backed off because ppl said it would ruin most protoss builds, which is true, but would be a good first step in the direction to buff protoss units and high tech production.
My idea is:
Rework warp gates entirely:
Make it a hero building that starts with 4 charges, with an upgrade to get 6 charges( can be higher numbers, just placeholder).
Make gateways the main production building, warpgates would be a harass tool. You can then buff gateway units, and bring back the templar upgrade to start with 75 energy; if made from gateways.
Could also possible allow immortals to be made from gateways once you have robo support bay or something.
I would also remove abduct, and make so neural can work on 4 supply units maximum. I would then buff broodlords and ultras.
Next step would be making banelings 1 supply (can be made from a larva, or 2 zerglings combined like archons).
Widowmines would need to be nerfed for this to be possible tho, this is the trickier change.
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I always promote a redesign (radical change) when paramaters doesn t feel hasardous. Why 4 ? why not 5 ? 6 ? why not +7 ? +8 ? +5 ? with upgrade ? If it s a core mecanic, it feel your idea a bit "binary" even with an the help of an upgrade imo. To be sure, just take the example of larva injection, which change has impacted deeply the meta game after HotS. The more and more you re using fixed numbers, the less flexible your game will be.
I super agree also with the Banes / WM which is really necessary (i would like a tag applied on units touched by acid to prevent an over accumulation of damage). Also agree with neural parasite.
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Bisutopia19384 Posts
Artosis talked about how Terran can raise buildings to seal walls versus zerg, but protoss can't. I often find that walling from ling runbys in the midgame has been a tough problem to deal with. But in WoL and HoTs protoss could always wall of with a sentry if needed. Ravagers have been a major nerf to the sentry forcefield. So if we are talking about changes in response to what he said, I'd love to see forcefields readdressed in a future patch. Like others said previously in this thread, forcefield HP might be the best solution.
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One of the things I was really happy to realize (only 1 month ago) when I came back to LotV, is that Warpgate did get quite a few changes. For example, you have to warp at a pylon connected to WG/Nexus in order to warp in quick to get the max speed, and they made it warp in 5 seconds now and not take double damage which helps deal with Bio drops + Mutas. And if you warp in at a proxy pylon around the map, that it will take much longer, so if you want to do some kind of push you need to tech to Warp Prism first.
What I'm a bit confused about, is that they reworked base Warpgate tech which is great, but Warp Prism still gives them quick access to reinforce just like the old proxy pylons did. Sure, you need a bit more tech now and can't just do a Gateway-only all-in like back then, and you can't warp in units around the map for harass as quickly without a WP. But in a way doesn't this also limit early game pressure PvZ because you need to wait for a WP? And that is a reason why Protoss has trouble pressuring Zerg early now because there's no threat of early Warpgate timings?
Did they have to allow WP to still give Protoss quick frontline warpins because there really is no way to just buff Protoss units instead?
I guess it kind of makes sense, just I was hyped to see Warp was reworked which does address some things, but WP is still needed.
I still feel like giving Guardian Shield 1-2 damage block vs Melee could do wonders and let Protoss walk about more often without worry of losing hard to straight up lings. Targeting Sentries down could be more of a thing. Terran has Hellion/Banshee to go around early on, Protoss have Adepts/Stargate but it's not the same.
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EPT
