Spreading misinformation will absolutely not be tolerated. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite victim blaming. Be very wary of what you post.
On July 21 2020 14:15 RandomPlayer416 wrote: Okay I'm not sticking up for Avilo, he clearly has issues and his idea of a relationship between 2 people is pretty wacked out. But this girl is to blame as well. If you look at the screen shots Avilo posted, clearly she was playing with him or leading him on. Maybe not to a regular person but to someone as weird as Avilo, he would cling to the things she says and cherish the thought of fooling around with a woman.
This girl saying her mental health was deteriorating?? I call BS on that. Blocking someone takes literally 1 second on any platform. The fact she couldnt find a way to get this parasite out of her life is on her 100%.
Correct, but you're going to have a really hard time getting reasonable people to validate that point. It's just kinda how it works with unlikeable streamers.
If I understand the case correctly Avilo can't take "NO" for an aswer. I can understand trying to change her mind about the first one, but 50th? C'mon.
Bottom line is, if you look at the timeline and the imgurs you can clearly see that at some point in time Atira was obviously either 1) playing along, or 2) using avilo as a means to gain followers/viewers. She clearly was interested at some point.
It's mere speculation on my part, simply because I have no way to validate if the accounts shown in the imgur are actually her accounts or not.
Regardless, I don't think Avilo has anything to lie about, and I know for a fact that people will often times try to be in cahoots with a streamer in one way or another to use them for exposure.
What I don't like, is seeing forums like reddit and others who clearly don't read or look at the evidence presented and just dismiss it because they tuned into his stream for 5 minutes and instantly didn't like the person.
There is good evidence here that shows atira was either playing a long OR was actually trying to have a relationship with Avilo.
I think any reasonable person would simply block the user on social media if they truly wanted the "harassment" to stop.
Yes its very clear Atira was in a relationship and or going along with Avilo at one point.
It is also very clear that Atira said no more and stop.
The block button does nothing when someone makes hundreds of alt accounts.
On July 21 2020 18:38 Jockmcplop wrote: Avilo faking evidence?
Anyway one thing I definitely agree with Atira about is avilo getting a job. The guy needs to get a job that doesn't involve him having 'fans' (incredibly toxic fans). He needs a boss and a fucking routine and all that other stuff that crushes ego.
On July 21 2020 19:52 -NegativeZero- wrote: the police thing is legit - i remember someone posting a link to the official public record of the court case when it happened, although i don't feel like looking for it
Some guy remembers some other guy posting the evidence, somewhere, so it's legit. Can't be bothered to find it though.
That summarizes the tone of this discussion that I have a problem with.
Look up avilo's name in Maryland court records. I'm not going to post it here.
On July 21 2020 20:56 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: Ofc this Atira girl pushed his buttons. But he didn't have any control over his actions? Stalking and harassing her for months after she said leave me alone?
Pretty easy to block his main. Good luck with the 1000s of alts he is creating to harass you now. He is a monster but in his head he thinks he is right.
I think it goes a little deeper than just pushing buttons. I have yet to see any evidence that he's creating alts to harass her, rather she's just letting him contact her under HER alts.
You're going to take Avilo's word that all those alts are Atira's ?
We need to be done with the ridiculous victim blaming.
Comments like these:
On July 21 2020 11:54 ProTech wrote: While I don't think Avilo is all there psychologically, that 41 page thesis about what happened does look rather compelling and makes you wonder if this was just a stunt from atira to gain followers/subs/donators.
I don't quite know how you would confirm the validity of the screenshots but either way, I don't really think Avilo has much to lose at this point, and as far as I know all the criminal charges were dropped in his case.
I think it's about time people start looking at the other side of the story, rather than incriminating him because you simply don't like him.
are particularly fucked up. Everything is well-documented and corroborated by many people (at tournaments, on streams, in private conversations, etc.), not merely fabricated by Atira. It's also absurd to assume that anyone who concludes that Avilo is a trash person based on all this abuse fallout merely has a biased agenda because they already hate him. That's not necessarily true at all; it's certainly not true for me, for example, who never really followed Avilo drama before this.
On July 21 2020 04:17 TelecoM wrote: I may grab a bag of popcorn for this 41 page Avilo explanation, this has got to be good. I wish someone would read it / summarize it in a video in a humorous way instead. =P
Ew. I don't mind anyone wanting to go over this in a serious and factual manner but this guy looks like a legit creeper who's just getting off on the whole thing and trying to use the opportunity to make himself look cool. When he replays the vid showing Atira's first reaction to that horrific painting commissioned by Avilo and goes "God, getting like a little second hand over here. I feel like she loves me", he looks like he's watching porn: https://youtu.be/xmnWMW8AAeI?t=5872
On July 21 2020 11:54 ProTech wrote: While I don't think Avilo is all there psychologically, that 41 page thesis about what happened does look rather compelling and makes you wonder if this was just a stunt from atira to gain followers/subs/donators.
I don't quite know how you would confirm the validity of the screenshots but either way, I don't really think Avilo has much to lose at this point, and as far as I know all the criminal charges were dropped in his case.
I think it's about time people start looking at the other side of the story, rather than incriminating him because you simply don't like him.
are particularly fucked up. Everything is well-documented and corroborated by many people (at tournaments, on streams, in private conversations, etc.), not merely fabricated by Atira. It's also absurd to assume that anyone who concludes that Avilo is a trash person based on all this abuse fallout merely has a biased agenda because they already hate him. That's not necessarily true at all; it's certainly not true for me, for example, who never really followed Avilo drama before this.
Feel free to share what is well documented. Private conversations do not prove anything. There is nothing wrong about ProTechs comments. This is not victim blaming because word of mouth does not decide who is the victim. Hearsay about someone who is already not popular is not evidence. If you have any evidence, bring it to court and nail him down. If you don't, then admit that all you have is conjecture and dont make yourself guilty of libel.
I can't say for sure which side is right because I have yet to see convincing evidence. But I do hate witchhunts.
On July 21 2020 22:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: We need to be done with the ridiculous victim blaming.
Comments like these:
On July 21 2020 11:54 ProTech wrote: While I don't think Avilo is all there psychologically, that 41 page thesis about what happened does look rather compelling and makes you wonder if this was just a stunt from atira to gain followers/subs/donators.
I don't quite know how you would confirm the validity of the screenshots but either way, I don't really think Avilo has much to lose at this point, and as far as I know all the criminal charges were dropped in his case.
I think it's about time people start looking at the other side of the story, rather than incriminating him because you simply don't like him.
are particularly fucked up. Everything is well-documented and corroborated by many people (at tournaments, on streams, in private conversations, etc.), not merely fabricated by Atira. It's also absurd to assume that anyone who concludes that Avilo is a trash person based on all this abuse fallout merely has a biased agenda because they already hate him. That's not necessarily true at all; it's certainly not true for me, for example, who never really followed Avilo drama before this.
Feel free to share what is well documented. Private conversations do not prove anything. There is nothing wrong about ProTechs comments. This is not victim blaming because word of mouth does not decide who is the victim. Hearsay about someone who is already not popular is not evidence. If you have any evidence, bring it to court and nail him down. If you don't, then admit that all you have is conjecture and dont make yourself guilty of libel.
I can't say for sure which side is right because I have yet to see convincing evidence. But I do hate witchhunts.
Fortunately this is not a court of law and private companies/internet companies are free to ostracize whomever they want according to behavior they have OBSERVED, without reaching the judicial bar of 'beyond reasonable doubt'. avilo has not been able to demonstrate that Atira is lying about the substance of what he has said or done to her. If such evidence existed, he is free to present it.
If you are never going to take the victim's word for anything that happened to them in a private relationship, I'm not sure how you expect to ever be convinced of anything. What the hell does "private conversations do not prove anything" even mean? What kind of evidence do you want? Why is your default position that someone who has subjected themselves to avilo's visibly toxic and aggressive fanbase is lying?
On July 21 2020 22:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: We need to be done with the ridiculous victim blaming.
Comments like these:
On July 21 2020 11:54 ProTech wrote: While I don't think Avilo is all there psychologically, that 41 page thesis about what happened does look rather compelling and makes you wonder if this was just a stunt from atira to gain followers/subs/donators.
I don't quite know how you would confirm the validity of the screenshots but either way, I don't really think Avilo has much to lose at this point, and as far as I know all the criminal charges were dropped in his case.
I think it's about time people start looking at the other side of the story, rather than incriminating him because you simply don't like him.
are particularly fucked up. Everything is well-documented and corroborated by many people (at tournaments, on streams, in private conversations, etc.), not merely fabricated by Atira. It's also absurd to assume that anyone who concludes that Avilo is a trash person based on all this abuse fallout merely has a biased agenda because they already hate him. That's not necessarily true at all; it's certainly not true for me, for example, who never really followed Avilo drama before this.
Feel free to share what is well documented. Private conversations do not prove anything. There is nothing wrong about ProTechs comments. This is not victim blaming because word of mouth does not decide who is the victim. Hearsay about someone who is already not popular is not evidence. If you have any evidence, bring it to court and nail him down. If you don't, then admit that all you have is conjecture and dont make yourself guilty of libel.
I can't say for sure which side is right because I have yet to see convincing evidence. But I do hate witchhunts.
This isn't a court of law, and everything's been talked about in depth across multiple threads, including the sexual harassment thread. If you or ProTech came late to the party and want to catch up on the reading, I think that's a great idea. But accusing an abuse survivor of making it up - even if you haven't spent the time to educate yourself yet - is extremely inappropriate.
Edit: I just realized ProTech got tempbanned, so he won't be able to respond. Hopefully, he learns his lesson.
After reading this thread, I'm under the impression that we are back in the darkest human age. Too much hate for a person that can't even (isn't allowed anymore to) defend himself.
If everything has been talked about already, perhaps its a good idea to close the thread.
For all we know, he really is very ill and/or psychotic. This thread might make him even worse. If we are dealing with mental illness here and everything has been talked about already then perhaps its a good idea to end it here?
On July 21 2020 23:03 Zealously wrote: Fortunately this is not a court of law and private companies/internet companies are free to ostracize whomever they want according to behavior they have OBSERVED,
Sure, but what's going on in here and on twitter is beyond "ostracizing".
On July 21 2020 23:03 Zealously wrote: avilo has not been able to demonstrate that Atira is lying about the substance of what he has said or done to her. If such evidence existed, he is free to present it.
He has presented his side of the story, which was about 41 pages. I'm not going to take it all at face value since it's mostly "he said she said" material.
On July 21 2020 23:03 Zealously wrote: If you are never going to take the victim's word for anything that happened to them in a private relationship, I'm not sure how you expect to ever be convinced of anything. What the hell does "private conversations do not prove anything" even mean? What kind of evidence do you want?
Video evidence of wrongdoing is convincing, long enough to provide context. Victims of abuse can have their injuries examined and documented by professionals, which is also convincing. Just as I'm not convinced by the "he said she said" material he presented, I'm not convinced by it presented by anyone else either. Stuff that hold up in court, hold up for a reason, and that would be enough to convince me.
On July 21 2020 23:03 Zealously wrote: Why is your default position that someone who has subjected themselves to avilo's visibly toxic and aggressive fanbase is lying?
This questions implies bias against him. My default position is not that she is lying. My default position is that until convincing evidence has been provided to prove the guilt I'm not going to talk shit about either side. Avilo took a lot of shit already before all of this, and some people are gleefully taking it too far.
On July 21 2020 23:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: This isn't a court of law, and everything's been talked about in depth across multiple threads, including the sexual harassment thread. If you or ProTech came late to the party and want to catch up on the reading, I think that's a great idea. But accusing an abuse survivor of making it up - even if you haven't spent the time to educate yourself yet - is extremely inappropriate.
I never claimed it's a court of law, but dogpiling on a person without any credible evidence to back it up is... questionable. I'm not going out there to accuse her of lying, but I am presenting the possibility that Avilo is not guilty of everything he is being accused of. Using some abstract thinking you can see the difference. While Protech did not word it exactly that way, it may be what he meant.
I'd love to catch up on reading. Someone said to look through the Maryland court records, but I could not find anything.
On July 21 2020 23:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Edit: I just realized ProTech got tempbanned, so he won't be able to respond. Hopefully, he learns his lesson.
What was he banned for? I remember there being a thread somewhere on TL detailing this, but when i checked the automated ban list I only saw ban discussions, so it might not be the thread I remember.
I can't believe people are trying to defend avilo's behavior. He has been doing it in public for years but nobody cared enough to do something about it. Now the girl says avilo won't leave her alone despite calling the cops on him and it's her fault.
Who cares if the girl flirted with him? At some point she asked him to stop and he didn't. TBH if a girl cheated on me 10+ times I wouldn't brag about it and I would even pack her shit to send her off.
On July 21 2020 23:32 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: I can't believe people are trying to defend avilo's behavior.
No one is doing that.
Just because some people don't join in on the dogpiling does not mean they are defending him. Please, read carefully. Nobody said that what he has been accused of is acceptable behaviour, nobody said that it's all a ploy of the girl to get publicity, etc.
On July 21 2020 23:32 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: I can't believe people are trying to defend avilo's behavior. He has been doing it in public for years but nobody cared enough to do something about it. Now the girl says avilo won't leave her alone despite calling the cops on him and it's her fault.
Who cares if the girl flirted with him? At some point she asked him to stop and he didn't. TBH if a girl cheated on me 10+ times I wouldn't brag about it and I would even pack her shit to send her off.
I dont think anyone is really defending Avilo here. What he did, no matter what she did, was wrong because as you said he didnt accept the "No" which did happen at some point.
Some people including me just have a problem with her side of the story.
On July 21 2020 14:15 RandomPlayer416 wrote: Okay I'm not sticking up for Avilo, he clearly has issues and his idea of a relationship between 2 people is pretty wacked out. But this girl is to blame as well. If you look at the screen shots Avilo posted, clearly she was playing with him or leading him on. Maybe not to a regular person but to someone as weird as Avilo, he would cling to the things she says and cherish the thought of fooling around with a woman.
This girl saying her mental health was deteriorating?? I call BS on that. Blocking someone takes literally 1 second on any platform. The fact she couldnt find a way to get this parasite out of her life is on her 100%.
Correct, but you're going to have a really hard time getting reasonable people to validate that point. It's just kinda how it works with unlikeable streamers.
If I understand the case correctly Avilo can't take "NO" for an aswer. I can understand trying to change her mind about the first one, but 50th? C'mon.
Bottom line is, if you look at the timeline and the imgurs you can clearly see that at some point in time Atira was obviously either 1) playing along, or 2) using avilo as a means to gain followers/viewers. She clearly was interested at some point.
It's mere speculation on my part, simply because I have no way to validate if the accounts shown in the imgur are actually her accounts or not.
Regardless, I don't think Avilo has anything to lie about, and I know for a fact that people will often times try to be in cahoots with a streamer in one way or another to use them for exposure.
What I don't like, is seeing forums like reddit and others who clearly don't read or look at the evidence presented and just dismiss it because they tuned into his stream for 5 minutes and instantly didn't like the person.
There is good evidence here that shows atira was either playing a long OR was actually trying to have a relationship with Avilo.
I think any reasonable person would simply block the user on social media if they truly wanted the "harassment" to stop.
Yah - people can say what they want about Avilo (I personally have never been able to stand anything about him) - but if you read any of what he posted that girl should receive equal treatment from the esports industry and court of public opinion. This is exactly why people don't take "me too" issues as seriously as they should - because you have psychos like this girl using it as a platform to fuck over somebody she had a change of heart about. It's probably moot though since such a large majority of the community is made up of sexually frustrated nerds who see an attractive girl and have a seizure. Twitch won't do shit - and everyone will continue on flaming avilo (which he deserves - but not for this).
That kinda the problem IMO though. Twtich ended up banning his account, and gave him absolutely no way to tell the other side of the story aside from platforms where he's hated like TL or Reddit.
However, to say with conviction that she should be treated the same way is kind of a hard thing to do, because for all I know Avilo could be photo shopping and cropping images, I don't know how to validate the usernames in those imgurs.
In my mind its pretty likely that he isn't lying because he's probably already come to terms with the fact that even if the truth does get out, he'll probably not get unbanned from twitch.
I just don't see what he has to lose.
I don’t see why he should get to on these platforms at this point.
Let’s concede even if hypothetically Atira did behave pretty shoddily, in the timeframe she was friendly with Avilo. Interpersonal relationships especially with any romantic component can go sour pretty quickly.
Her only consistent request for rather quite some time now is for him to leave her alone and to say he hasn’t respected that is rather an understatement.
Scenario A - Avilo recognised that their relationship is toxic, she’s crazy and manipulative as he claims and steps back from it. Gets back to his life and perhaps explains the situation in a less lurid and more vague way. Stays out of her way.
Scenario B - Avilo does what he has done. Which is continue to try to interact with her in various ways even as she’s trying to get a restraining order, disparaging her in various ways, compiles huge dossiers of messages etc etc until he gets bans all over the place. Any interaction from the SC community advising him to leave well alone is met with either hostility or the same warped narrative about Atira and her army of fans who fabricate all sorts of evidence in their quest to bring down the mighty Avilo.
If he’d just left it alone and gone with some variant of scenario A the community, tournaments and Twitch would have been fine with him doing his thing.
Doesn’t mean many of us would like him but he’d merely be a balance whiner with an inflated sense of his skill. It’s this continued poor behaviour around Atira that has been going on for absolutely ages now that is the problem.
Even a cursory glance at his Twitter appearances around it show he’s still not getting it. I’m not particularly active but I saw for example a respected guy in the community like Catz say even if Atira did do you wrong, she’s told you to leave her alone, Avilo’s response was his standard ‘her bots have turned the community against me’ and complete lack of self-awareness.
Perhaps Atira does donate 150 dollars to herself via a smurf purporting to be Avilo and break down crying and end a day’s streaming. I’d hazard a guess with a high degree of certainty that she does not.
Atira said she "had heard about Avilo and what he is known for but didn't pass judgement on it because she never saw that behaviour on stream." Now this I have a really hard time believing. I used to watch Avilo's stream because at times he was the only terran player and he was almost always being toxic in some way. Nothing he ever said was funny or interesting. He is not an attractive person, he was not and is not liked by the community at any point during his "Sc2 career". All of this leads me to believe she saw him as an easy target and used him to get her name out in circulation.
Lets be real, she is a gold/plat level player. Why would any fan of starcraft want to tune in and watch that? Oh because shes kind of cute?? So she is attracting weak minded, desperate people who latch on to things and will do anything to try and maintain it. Thats who Avilo is and she knew it.
TL DR: -Avilo is socially awkward -Atira was unknown, became involved with avilo one way or another -Atira realizes she can use avilo's popularity to gain attention for herself. -Avilo can't handle rejection from real relationship, loses his mind -community involvement causes avilo to become paranoid and increases his outlandish behaviour -Atira exposes him, ruins his "SC2 Career" -Atira gains viewership, avilo gets banned.
I really dont think its fair what happened to him, eventhough the way he reacted to everything was his own fault. He probably saw Atira as the best he would ever do in a relationship and had a meltdown when he watched it slip away. Its kind of sad really. Trolls in the community probably played a part in this as well one way or another.
On July 21 2020 23:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: This isn't a court of law, and everything's been talked about in depth across multiple threads, including the sexual harassment thread. If you or ProTech came late to the party and want to catch up on the reading, I think that's a great idea. But accusing an abuse survivor of making it up - even if you haven't spent the time to educate yourself yet - is extremely inappropriate.
I never claimed it's a court of law
My comment was a response to you saying "If you have any evidence, bring it to court and nail him down." We're not talking about that; we're talking about massive corroboration of the extremely abusive behavior and dangerous actions that Avilo has been doing, from harassing people online to literally, physically stalking them (to the point where law enforcement needed to get involved). We don't need an actual legal case to decide it's in the community's best interest to take a stand against abusers like him.
On July 21 2020 23:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Edit: I just realized ProTech got tempbanned, so he won't be able to respond. Hopefully, he learns his lesson.
What was he banned for? I remember there being a thread somewhere on TL detailing this, but when i checked the automated ban list I only saw ban discussions, so it might not be the thread I remember.
ProTech's most recent ban is for doing exactly what everyone (including the moderators) warned him to be careful of... victim blaming and not doing his due diligence before defending Avilo. Here's the thread for all bans; this page includes ProTech's: https://tl.net/forum/closed-threads/32696-automated-ban-list-latest-moltkewarding3?page=2396 Here is the explanation... "Reason: Since we know that Atira did in fact block avilo and that harassment continued, it seems you should think long and hard about how YOU assess evidence and public statements in the future. In case you haven't been involved on TL recently, I want to make it extremely clear that we do not condone shifting blame onto victims in these situations. Please do not do it again."
Anyways, this isn't the time or place to talk about ProTech, as there are real injustices pertaining to actual harassment and abuse that we should be focusing on.
EPT
