Tackling #MeTooV2 on Ep.#97 of ThePylonShow ft. @ThatBronzeGirl, @NeuroZerg & @Artosis
This week's show is about a more serious topic and as such there is no code word or sponser plugs.
00:01:43 Welcome back / Show road map / Guest introductions 00:04:38 Why we are talking about this? 00:14:38 Thinking critically about everyone, even our own friends 00:25:36 When and how we should stand up / What is a good apology? 00:37:28 Good is something we do, not something we are 00:42:39 How do we start moving forward from here? 00:50:40 Be your best self / Networking correctly 01:00:30 How to communicate online effectively and respectfully 01:06:48 Story time / Keeping a respectful balance 01:13:31 Repeated offenses - offenders / How to grow ourselves and support each other 01:18:52 Fatigue in dealing with many heavy things / Recharge ourselves 01:29:28 Be excellent to each other 01:31:29 Patreon Q&A 01:32:16 What can we do to make our community safer? 01:36:56 How to be a force of safety and security amongst your peers? / Protect, support and hold each other accountable 01:40:54 What can the community do about a streamer who harasses another streamer? 01:43:17 How does the MeToo relate to StarCraft? 01:47:37 Thoughts on what has been happening? 01:51:10 Final thoughts / Wrap up / Thanks for watching
Could someone please clue me in as to what it is that happened last week prior to the Pylon Show last week? Watched the YouTube video and 10 minutes in no really has brought up and to what it is that 'happened'... I feel so lost.
On July 08 2020 06:15 MoonyD wrote: Could someone please clue me in as to what it is that happened last week prior to the Pylon Show last week? Watched the YouTube video and 10 minutes in no really has brought up and to what it is that 'happened'... I feel so lost.
On July 08 2020 06:15 MoonyD wrote: Could someone please clue me in as to what it is that happened last week prior to the Pylon Show last week? Watched the YouTube video and 10 minutes in no really has brought up and to what it is that 'happened'... I feel so lost.
Did someone get abused recently?
Not sure about Starcraft specifically, but in the past couple weeks in the gaming/eSports world, a shockingly large number of people have come forward with stories of sexual misconduct against prominent community members/commentators/players, ranging from simply poor decision making all the way up to forcible rape.
On July 08 2020 18:11 Marl wrote: SJWism kills viewership
If it means we lose the viewers forever, that don t care about those topics, I m fine with that. As that would mean the community is cleansed and going to be a safer place, once offline events are back up.
Imagine if just talking about this topic was all you needed to get rid of these sorts of people. The world would be a much safer place!
I appreciated the discussion in this episode. Overall some good points were made, and I learned something. I appreciated the recommendations on reducing these sorts of incidents.
Here is some feedback to the show runners and the community. I agree with Marl here in that SJWism kills viewership. Like, I tune in for starcraft. Not to hear some influencer or influencers talk about morals. If i wanted/needed lessons in morals, i'd probably goto church instead or read a book. Besides, why do you think its your responsibility to groom someone else's morals?(nope, i'm not defending the crapheads either, but maybe just report them to the proper authorities and be done with it instead of trying to groom random users morals over the internet who had nothing to do with the issue?) Like, it's their channel and I understand that they can use their platform for whatever they want but, you know, i'll just probably tune in less. At times I really wish the sc2 community didn't have some much in common with cults. I think you guys are heavily towing the line. It wasn't like this 10-11 years ago. My 2 cents in under 2 minutes.
i'm just anti-drama. its unneeded drama and it makes me not want to tune in. Like, 2 people do bad stuff and all the sudden the entire community needs a moral lesson via a livestream? Yeah I don't think so. Seems a bit extreme and over the top.
On July 09 2020 08:03 h20Fanatic wrote: i'm just anti-drama. its unneeded drama and it makes me not want to tune in. Like, 2 people do bad stuff and all the sudden the entire community needs a moral lesson via a livestream? Yeah I don't think so. Seems a bit extreme and over the top.
We need to have conversations about stuff like this. Otherwise harassers and abusers will be free to do whatever they want in silence.
On July 09 2020 08:03 h20Fanatic wrote: i'm just anti-drama. its unneeded drama and it makes me not want to tune in. Like, 2 people do bad stuff and all the sudden the entire community needs a moral lesson via a livestream? Yeah I don't think so. Seems a bit extreme and over the top.
It's an issue in gaming generally, hell in the world generally. It's easy to look the other way when it comes to harassment but awareness and support *is* important.
Laugh and the world laughs with you, weep and you weep alone.
On July 09 2020 08:03 h20Fanatic wrote: i'm just anti-drama. its unneeded drama and it makes me not want to tune in. Like, 2 people do bad stuff and all the sudden the entire community needs a moral lesson via a livestream? Yeah I don't think so. Seems a bit extreme and over the top.
We need to have conversations about stuff like this. Otherwise harassers and abusers will be free to do whatever they want in silence.
O I don't think we do, I insist that you do not include me in whatever mission you are on, i'm not apart of it. I don't consent to your personal mission. I can only suggest maybe it is best to have those conversations with the actual offenders or just report the crime and let the proper authorities handle it? Me refusing to participate in moral discussion does not enable harassers to be free and roam to do whatever they want. I'm not responsible for someone else's actions. The people that were aware of those situations for years that did nothing about it, I suggest those are the people that you might want to speak with if you are on a personal mission. You know, the company employees that knew about the behavior and permitted the behavior to continue over a span of many years. Maybe the company should be legally held accountable for permitting a hostile work environment to exist over a span of years instead of lecturing the community on morals for something they weren't apart of and had nothing to do with?
On a side note to respond to another user here, Correlation does not imply causation. It's a select few individuals that happen to play games with other people and post on forums/use discord. It's not related to gaming it all, it's not even part of gaming culture, its as simple as a few people just doing bad crap.
Lets pretend for a moment that in your town, there are a couple of bad apples that go around stealing tires off cars. They eventually get handled. Does this mean the town's population has a problem stealing tires? No. Does this mean that the entire town has a culture problem? No. Does this mean that the town leaders need to host a 1-2 hour sermon on not stealing tires? No. Does this mean that because of 2 bad apples in the sc2 community that now the sc2 community has a culture problem? The answer again is no. It's just a few bad apples.
The following week, a band that plays regularly in your town decides to host a 1-2 hour sermon on morals against stealing tires instead of playing a regular show. Why would anybody want to attend? We just listen to their music for entertainment.
Now I get that people want to impact the world and make a difference in positive ways. I'm one of those people. But i think there are boundaries/limits. Like okay, you want to shape someone else's morals/beliefs/behaviors? Well does that person's mind belong to you, is it your property? Nope. Is it your responsibility to shape their morals or belief system? Not unless they asked you to or unless you are a preacher in a pulpit or unless they are your kids. Are you their legal guardian in any shape or form? Chances are no unless they are your kids etc. See what i'm saying? There are boundaries/limits.
There's no such thing as true escapism; the worlds problems don't disappear because you're looking for entertainment. The worlds problems affect this community like any other. Gaming in particular has a big culture problem and sc2 is a part of that. You personally may not contribute but on a community level it's important to engage with these issues as they do not go away by themselves. No one likes to feel uncomfortable. You may not feel like it's an issue much in the sc2 community and I'd tend to agree! The sc2 community is honestly pretty great in comparison to a lot of others. Still - we are not isolated from the rest of the ecosystem or the rest of the world. Harassment is a big societal issue especially for women. Know the saying "act locally, think globally"? This is that.
On July 09 2020 09:49 johnnywup wrote: There's no such thing as true escapism; the worlds problems don't disappear because you're looking for entertainment. The worlds problems affect this community like any other. Gaming in particular has a big culture problem and sc2 is a part of that. You personally may not contribute but on a community level it's important to engage with these issues as they do not go away by themselves. No one likes to feel uncomfortable. You may not feel like it's an issue much in the sc2 community and I'd tend to agree! The sc2 community is honestly pretty great in comparison to a lot of others. Still - we are not isolated from the rest of the ecosystem or the rest of the world. Harassment is a big societal issue especially for women. Know the saying "act locally, think globally"? This is that.
2 people committing crimes unrelated to starcraft or videogames does not mean the starcraft community has a culture problem. It literally just means 2 people did some bad crap. It's not a reflection of the "community" or "gaming community". Why exaggerate the situation.
To group everyone and say gaming has a culture problem is kind of nonsense and an insult to gamers. It's a few aggressors and employees who failed to keep a safe work environment. I think the company who runs the events needs to be held accountable, afterall they are responsible for maintaining a safe work environment for their employees. Where is the real accountability? Yet people think its a better idea to lecture the community for 2 hours? Makes no sense. They preaching to the wrong people lol. If people want real change, there needs to be accountability. Lecturing and blaming the sc2 community for a company's and its employees' actions of permitting a hostile work environment to exist is handling the situation extremely poorly. Way to pass the buck.
On July 09 2020 10:05 h20Fanatic wrote: 2 people committing crimes unrelated to starcraft or videogames does not mean the starcraft community has a culture problem. It literally just means 2 people did some bad crap. It's not a reflection of the "community" or "gaming community". Why exaggerate the situation.
On July 09 2020 10:05 h20Fanatic wrote: 2 people committing crimes unrelated to starcraft or videogames does not mean the starcraft community has a culture problem. It literally just means 2 people did some bad crap. It's not a reflection of the "community" or "gaming community". Why exaggerate the situation.
And that's only what has been shared publicly. More than likely, there are many more stories which are unknown to the public.
If "real accountability" is really what you value, then what are you doing to demand such accountability?
Yeah I saw that. Again, it's not a community problem, its an individual problem. A few bad apples does not equate to "the community". It's odd that community leaders would rather lecture the community than seek real accountability for a company and its employees that permitted a hostile work environment to exist within their scene for years. Why is that?
A few bad apples does not equate to "the community".
Did you actually read the stories? It should be obvious that this is more than "a few bad apples." Even *if* it were only one or two cases, the fact that the wrong-doers were able to get away with such behavior without consequence is proof that we have a larger, community-wide problem.
On July 09 2020 10:05 h20Fanatic wrote:
It's odd that community leaders would rather lecture the community than seek real accountability
You are creating a false choice between talk and action. In fact, I would argue that talking about problems is a necessary first step towards fixing them. Artosis dedicating an entire show to this topic is a step in the right direction. This is not mutually exclusive with "seek[ing] real accountability."
The fact that we are having this discussion is proof that the episode worked. If we refused to talk about anything except for Starcraft in the literal sense, then we would never get anywhere with problems such as these.
When things that you consider problems are systematically occurring either you should want the system change or you don't really care about the problem.
The community has no problems holding members of the community accountable for their bad behavior by giving a chance for correction or kicking them out if the individual refuses to change, or just immediate expulsion if it was some crazy stuff. How come they don't hold the company accountable for facilitating an environment for this behavior to persist? Why aren't they rallying for safer work conditions? Why do they decide to lecture the community instead? Is there is a financial conflict of interest at hand or something?
It's almost like everyone responding to me is ignoring the fact that there are laws in place for this sort of thing, they were violated and that you are ignoring that if an organization had been following the law, multiple abuses in a linked thread wouldn't have occurred. How come you are okay with holding people accountable but fine with an organization facilitate a hostile work environment for years, in this very gaming scene. Why is that? Do you think there is a financial conflict of interest at hand?
I agree with some of what you said (ie. the show could've focused a little more on forming company/organization policies and less about lecturing the Starcraft community about consent, etc.) but you're not going to be taken seriously with your overly confrontational tone, using incendiary terms like "SJWism," and starting your argument by giving yourself black-and-white labels like being "anti-drama" over a topic like this. Clearly you're not actually "anti-drama" and have strong opinions over this when you're typing up a bunch of paragraphs.
On July 09 2020 12:44 JohnDelaney wrote: I agree with some of what you said (ie. the show could've focused a little more on forming company/organization policies and less about lecturing the Starcraft community about consent, etc.) but you're not going to be taken seriously with your overly confrontational tone, using incendiary terms like "SJWism," and starting your argument by giving yourself black-and-white labels like being "anti-drama" over a topic like this. Clearly you're not actually "anti-drama" and have strong opinions over this when you're typing up a bunch of paragraphs.
I think you must be mistaken, i'm very civil here. I'm asking questions. I believe in staying on topic instead of judging forum users for asking questions. I can understand that i'm asking very serious hard hitting questions. Questions that probably make you feel unsettled and maybe unsure of what to say. You don't have to mistake simple questions for an "overly confrontational tone", it's okay i forgive you. much love. I'm just asking questions.
On July 09 2020 13:30 johnnywup wrote: You can tell someone has an empathy problem when they're more irritated at being exposed to an issue than the issue itself
It's a real shame that people did bad stuff to other people and It leaves us with serious questions left to be asked that should probably be answered. It super sucks that there are victims of abuse, i wish them a speedy recovery and hopefully they have receive the comfort and love from the their friends and family to bring them through the tough times to heal.
Do you think organizations/companies should be held accountable for facilitating a hostile work environment since it is against the law? Why did it go on for so long? Do you think there is a financial conflict of interest at hand as to why influencers aren't demanding a safer work environment or accountability for the company/organization involved in a incident in a linked thread. i'm also curious if you also might have any answers for the questions i asked earlier the thread as well. This is interesting to discuss with you.
On July 09 2020 13:30 johnnywup wrote: You can tell someone has an empathy problem when they're more irritated at being exposed to an issue than the issue itself
It's a real shame that people did bad stuff to other people and It leaves us with serious questions left to be asked that should probably be answered. It super sucks that there are victims of abuse, i wish them a speedy recovery and hopefully they have receive the comfort and love from the their friends and family to bring them through the tough times to heal.
Do you think organizations/companies should be held accountable for facilitating a hostile work environment since it is against the law? Why did it go on for so long? Do you think there is a financial conflict of interest at hand as to why influencers aren't demanding a safer work environment or accountability for the company/organization involved in a incident in a linked thread. i'm also curious if you also might have any answers for the questions i asked earlier the thread as well. This is interesting to discuss with you.
Is everything you type just attempts at deflection? The failures of various organizations or companies to properly address harassment does not mean that the community doesn't have a role in enabling all this, or that the community can't foster an environment where harassment is less often ignored. Additionally the Pylon Show is a talk show aimed at the community, and as such it addresses things that can be done at the community level. The fact that the Pylon Show covered this issue does not mean that people aren't also trying to improve things at organizational levels. Your speculation about "financial conflict of interest" is just bullshit you're coming up with to derail things.
You seem quite set on the idea that the Pylon Show should not discuss this despite the fact that the Pylon Show covers basically all large Starcraft related news or discussion, and whether you like it or not this is Starcraft news. However, no one is forcing you to watch.
Here I am thinking we on TL . Net widly agreed in this topic and made a dumb, sarcastic reply to an even dumber comment. Just to come back to this, where someone, who s "Anti-drama" created a new Account just to discuss this
Talking about it for more awarness in the community and taking reactions on corporate Level are NOT mutually exclusive. Apollo, Who s in charge of the SC2 Major tournament organisation, tweeted about it and I m 100% sure je will put policies and authorities in place when Offline Events are Back. So that everyone visiting a Sc2 event can be mich more safer. But it doesn t stop there. In some of the stories thatcame to light, a more aware community would have helped a lot, so this "just talking about it" defnatly helps as well.
And if people like you whom are uninterestet in following a sport, that tries to be more inclusive and safe for everyone, are leaveing it for good, that s more a good thing than a bad thing as well.
On July 09 2020 15:12 dbRic1203 wrote: Here I am thinking we on TL . Net widly agreed in this topic and made a dumb, sarcastic reply to an even dumber comment. Just to come back to this, where someone, who s "Anti-drama" created a new Account just to discuss this
Talking about it for more awarness in the community and taking reactions on corporate Level are NOT mutually exclusive. Apollo, Who s in charge of the SC2 Major tournament organisation, tweeted about it and I m 100% sure je will put policies and authorities in place when Offline Events are Back. So that everyone visiting a Sc2 event can be mich more safer. But it doesn t stop there. In some of the stories thatcame to light, a more aware community would have helped a lot, so this "just talking about it" defnatly helps as well.
And if people like you whom are uninterestet in following a sport, that tries to be more inclusive and safe for everyone, are leaveing it for good, that s more a good thing than a bad thing as well.
I prefer to stay on topic. After all, the influencers did do a section on accountability in this very video so I believe the questions I asked are valid. you want things to be safer, I couldn't agree more, i'm with you buddy. That's why I am asking where is accountability for an organization/company that facilitated a hostile work environment for years? What new company policies do these organizations plan to put in place to maintain and facilitate a safe work environment and how do they plan to enforce them? We're all concerned about the safety of everyone here ans we should also need to think of the employees and the work environment. What do they plan to do about that? How come the influencers didn't talk about that? Why aren't they demanding accountability for an organization/company, according to a linked thread by another user, in which multiple abuses took place in? Organizations are responsible for keeping a safe work environment. Is it possible that there is a financial conflict of interest at hand as to why influencers stayed silent/didn't touch on this specific portion of the subject of accountability? I'm very curious as this pertains specifically to a topic they covered in the video, accountability.
On July 09 2020 15:12 dbRic1203 wrote: Here I am thinking we on TL . Net widly agreed in this topic and made a dumb, sarcastic reply to an even dumber comment. Just to come back to this, where someone, who s "Anti-drama" created a new Account just to discuss this
Talking about it for more awarness in the community and taking reactions on corporate Level are NOT mutually exclusive. Apollo, Who s in charge of the SC2 Major tournament organisation, tweeted about it and I m 100% sure je will put policies and authorities in place when Offline Events are Back. So that everyone visiting a Sc2 event can be mich more safer. But it doesn t stop there. In some of the stories thatcame to light, a more aware community would have helped a lot, so this "just talking about it" defnatly helps as well.
And if people like you whom are uninterestet in following a sport, that tries to be more inclusive and safe for everyone, are leaveing it for good, that s more a good thing than a bad thing as well.
I prefer to stay on topic. After all, the influencers did do a section on accountability in this very video so I believe the questions I asked are valid. you want things to be safer, I couldn't agree more, i'm with you buddy. That's why I am asking where is accountability for an organization/company that facilitated a hostile work environment for years? What new company policies do these organizations plan to put in place to maintain and facilitate a safe work environment and how do they plan to enforce them? We're all concerned about the safety of everyone here ans we should also need to think of the employees and the work environment. What do they plan to do about that? How come the influencers didn't talk about that? Why aren't they demanding accountability for an organization/company, according to a linked thread by another user, in which multiple abuses took place in? Organizations are responsible for keeping a safe work environment. Is it possible that there is a financial conflict of interest at hand as to why influencers stayed silent/didn't touch on this specific portion of the subject of accountability? I'm very curious as this pertains specifically to a topic they covered in the video, accountability.
I love following esports . Go Go team liquid
We should be asking what organizations are going to do about it going forward. We should also discuss the personal experiences these people have suffered in these situations and support them. These are not mutually exclusive. There doesn't need to be some grand conspiracy about conflict of interest. There's no need to draw lines about this sort of thing. It is disgusting that these people suffered these offenses. It isn't "SJWism" to discuss people being sexually harassed and calling out people for doing that sort of thing. It also isn't "SJWism" to ask organizations to also do their part in ensuring these sorts of environments aren't fostered. EVO is currently in the process of excising their tumors as it were. I'm sure others will follow suit, and it can't hurt to ask them why they aren't. If you want to do your part, why don't you go on twitter and ask them what their plan is moving forward?
On July 09 2020 15:12 dbRic1203 wrote: Here I am thinking we on TL . Net widly agreed in this topic and made a dumb, sarcastic reply to an even dumber comment. Just to come back to this, where someone, who s "Anti-drama" created a new Account just to discuss this
Talking about it for more awarness in the community and taking reactions on corporate Level are NOT mutually exclusive. Apollo, Who s in charge of the SC2 Major tournament organisation, tweeted about it and I m 100% sure je will put policies and authorities in place when Offline Events are Back. So that everyone visiting a Sc2 event can be mich more safer. But it doesn t stop there. In some of the stories thatcame to light, a more aware community would have helped a lot, so this "just talking about it" defnatly helps as well.
And if people like you whom are uninterestet in following a sport, that tries to be more inclusive and safe for everyone, are leaveing it for good, that s more a good thing than a bad thing as well.
I prefer to stay on topic. After all, the influencers did do a section on accountability in this very video so I believe the questions I asked are valid. you want things to be safer, I couldn't agree more, i'm with you buddy. That's why I am asking where is accountability for an organization/company that facilitated a hostile work environment for years? What new company policies do these organizations plan to put in place to maintain and facilitate a safe work environment and how do they plan to enforce them? We're all concerned about the safety of everyone here ans we should also need to think of the employees and the work environment. What do they plan to do about that? How come the influencers didn't talk about that? Why aren't they demanding accountability for an organization/company, according to a linked thread by another user, in which multiple abuses took place in? Organizations are responsible for keeping a safe work environment. Is it possible that there is a financial conflict of interest at hand as to why influencers stayed silent/didn't touch on this specific portion of the subject of accountability? I'm very curious as this pertains specifically to a topic they covered in the video, accountability.
I love following esports . Go Go team liquid
We should be asking what organizations are going to do about it going forward. We should also discuss the personal experiences these people have suffered in these situations and support them. These are not mutually exclusive. There doesn't need to be some grand conspiracy about conflict of interest. There's no need to draw lines about this sort of thing. It is disgusting that these people suffered these offenses. It isn't "SJWism" to discuss people being sexually harassed and calling out people for doing that sort of thing. It also isn't "SJWism" to ask organizations to also do their part in ensuring these sorts of environments aren't fostered. EVO is currently in the process of excising their tumors as it were. I'm sure others will follow suit, and it can't hurt to ask them why they aren't. If you want to do your part, why don't you go on twitter and ask them what their plan is moving forward?
No one said anything about a conspiracy. But really...influencers talk about accountability in the video. But what about accountability for the organization/company? How long did this permit. Are you aware a company has a duty to maintain a safe work environment? Many things i'm reading in the thread that happened are against the law. Do you think these people and organization(s)/company(ies) should get off scott free? Or do you think they should be held accountable for breaking the law? I asked a lot of other adults in my neighborhood the same thing, they like wait what? Some thing is fishy going on there they said, possibly even a financial conflict of interest when it comes to the influencers not mentioning anything about company accoutability they said. These people need to speak up they said.
EDIT: These parents aren't happy to see whats going on. Ya'll may have to deal with outrage from these parents of children in the community, I think they are starting to question as to whether or not online streamers are attempting to raise and influence their kids without parental consent as if the kids were their own. They also mentioned they were worried whether or not their kids are being groomed.
Standing up against abuse is not "SJWism", it's supposed to be common sense. Abuse can also be a crime.
Personally, I'm very happy that the Pylon Show doesn't only talk about Starcraft. Of course, Starcraft should be the main focus, but imho, it's childish to pretend that the game isn't part of a bigger ecosystem.
It appears that everyone dodges the "tough" questions about the situation. It's almost like people are hiding something and are afraid to answer questions. So how long did the abuse go on at the organization? How many prominent figures of the community knew about it? How long did they know? What reason did they have for waiting till after someone publicly breaks their story to talk about holding each other accountable.
What are the plans to hold them accountable? What about the employees? What about the organization? Should people and the organization just be let off scott free and not suffer consequences for the actions that caused such pain and distress? The organization can be legally held accountable for this in addition to individuals responsible for the abuse(though that is under way if i'm not mistaken). There can be real true justice across the entire scope of issues at hand.
Ya'll want real change, well, you gotta do things right and hold them all accountable, right? Or do you guys n gals prefer selective enforcement of laws?
On July 09 2020 17:42 h20Fanatic wrote: No one said anything about a conspiracy. But really...influencers talk about accountability in the video. But what about accountability for the organization/company? How long did this permit. Are you aware a company has a duty to maintain a safe work environment? Many things i'm reading in the thread that happened are against the law. Do you think these people and organization(s)/company(ies) should get off scott free? Or do you think they should be held accountable for breaking the law? I asked a lot of other adults in my neighborhood the same thing, they like wait what? Some thing is fishy going on there they said, possibly even a financial conflict of interest when it comes to the influencers not mentioning anything about company accoutability they said. These people need to speak up they said.
EDIT: These parents aren't happy to see whats going on. Ya'll may have to deal with outrage from these parents of children in the community, I think they are starting to question as to whether or not online streamers are attempting to raise and influence their kids without parental consent as if the kids were their own. They also mentioned they were worried whether or not their kids are being groomed.
You are specifically drawing lines exactly like a conspiracy theorist, and drawing conclusions not only about organizations, but others in the thread.
At no point had I stated I was okay with organizations getting off scott free, and yet here you are making those accusations. You're completely derailing the conversation. Again, as I stated, and you so kindly ignored, these are not mutually exclusive questions. As I stated, you need to go on twitter and ask these organizations what they plan on doing, but you dodged that entirely. Which is funny considering;
It appears that everyone dodges the "tough" questions about the situation.
You dodge any sort of personal responsibility to proactively work towards a future where people in e-sports don't have to worry about these awful experiences. Therefore, I don't think you're arguing in good faith. Which shouldn't be surprising considering your first post on TL.net had "SJWism" in it.
The guy is literally propping up a strawman argument that no one is making then poking holes into his own premise lol. Sorry cancel culture has you all bent out of shape. I can imagine debating this guy on things like BLM and the existence of White Privilege, he'd probably flip his shit.
On July 10 2020 06:40 Zidane wrote: The guy is literally propping up a strawman argument that no one is making then poking holes into his own premise lol. Sorry cancel culture has you all bent out of shape. I can imagine debating this guy on things like BLM and the existence of White Privilege, he'd probably flip his shit.
On July 09 2020 11:58 h20Fanatic wrote: How come you are okay with holding people accountable but fine with an organization facilitate a hostile work environment for years, in this very gaming scene.
Let me answer that question... even though that lacks a question mark...
Not a single person said it was okay. You're trying to manipulate people and use false equivalency to prove something. That only works on fools. And it is only spouted by fools.
That's why it's a strawman. I'm seriously impressed with the rest of the people here. TL is the best forum, it's too good for people like me honestly.
I was expecting a rather one-sided discussion when I saw that Pylon show. I really shouldn't have, because I don't know much about Neuroswarm or ThatBronzeGirl. I think I'm just a tad cynical about internet shows and complex issues. The LiquidDota & TL threads on accusations/corroboration was bad for most of it's pages.
It was very even handed. Most of the counterarguments I always seen passed over were brought up, and discussed. It even brings up that nasty subject of how nerdy gamers going through the early stages of learning/failing to learn social interactions that aren't romantic interactions (The old joke is that Incels & Excel incorrectly assume everything is a date). Major props to ThatBronzeGirl for a balanced take.
On July 10 2020 06:40 Zidane wrote: The guy is literally propping up a strawman argument that no one is making then poking holes into his own premise lol. Sorry cancel culture has you all bent out of shape. I can imagine debating this guy on things like BLM and the existence of White Privilege, he'd probably flip his shit.
My great grandparents migrated from italy in the 60s. My family tree has zero ties to slavery, at all. we also lived in a black and white neighborhood. everyone had the same "privilege". Growing up, there was always black and white people around me. Everyone received the same level of opportunities. Did i experience white privilege? no. Do i think its real? It could be, in other places around the states. I protested already and put my life on the line to risk being killed by cops to represent equality(yup they are beating up and killing white people too out there durign the protests). Go do something other than sitting behind a keyboard and don't you ever judge me again.
Any adult that reads this thread will be able to see that i've asked hard hitting questions that coincide with the sc2 scene's abuse narrative. All original posts got screenshotted for my records. They can also see that each person responding was aggressive in responding and that several users attempt to cyber bully me in response to asking questions. Why does it bother you so much that I ask these questions that you feel the need to personally attack a person on an internet forum? I thought the whole point of the anti-abuse movement was to stop that behavior in the community. Why are you setting a bad example for your peers?
How come the influencers didn't speak a single word about holding the company accountable where multiple abuses took place? They even did a section on accountability but neglected to mention what the plan is for holding the company accountable. After all, that company is involved in their scene. Is there a financial conflict of interest at hand as to why they wouldn't say anything? Are any of you familiar with the legal term aiding and abetting?
*Entire sc2 scene dodges all questions**
So there you have it folks, An opportunity for actual justice. Yet nobody is taking that opportunity. It's interesting to see that when there is a real opportunity for justice, the social justice warriors don't even take it. It's as if justice isn't their intention at all. To those who think it's their duty to lecture others on morals....
On July 10 2020 06:40 Zidane wrote: The guy is literally propping up a strawman argument that no one is making then poking holes into his own premise lol. Sorry cancel culture has you all bent out of shape. I can imagine debating this guy on things like BLM and the existence of White Privilege, he'd probably flip his shit.
On July 09 2020 11:58 h20Fanatic wrote: How come you are okay with holding people accountable but fine with an organization facilitate a hostile work environment for years, in this very gaming scene.
Let me answer that question... even though that lacks a question mark...
Not a single person said it was okay. You're trying to manipulate people and use false equivalency to prove something. That only works on fools. And it is only spouted by fools.
That's why it's a strawman. I'm seriously impressed with the rest of the people here. TL is the best forum, it's too good for people like me honestly.
I've been impressed by the number of people who have been involved to tell the person they were wrong, yet also avoid taking the strawman bait. I don't think anyone's actually fallen for that trap here at all which is impressive.
It’s one show out of a houndred, it’s not a big deal. I didn’t watch it either because I kind of agree that it has nothing to do with me, but it isnt worth getting so upset about.
Thanks for all the work you are putting into this pylon show and starcraft in general
Good discussion. I would have liked to hear more about power imbalances, hierarchies and structural problems inside gaming communities that enable this sort of behavior and less about dating and life advice, because I don't think harassment is about dating. Artosis did ask if there are any best practices to avoid this sort of thing happening in the future but sadly the discussion was on a very personal level, which is important of course, but surely there are also some structural things to be done to e.g lower the threshold of reporting harassment or lower the threshold to hold someone accountable. Because there are no effective ways to act on those accusations within the community the only option is usually to go public. You did touch on the subject of power and how some people disguise their hidden agenda into a business venture and from what I've gathered harassment is more about power trip than socially awkward approaches and whatnot.
EPT
. Go Go team liquid 
