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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 27 2020 08:13 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 07:49 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 07:46 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 07:41 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 07:39 Oukka wrote:On June 27 2020 07:36 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 07:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 07:20 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 07:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 07:11 mcgormack wrote:
[quote]
And where do you draw the line? If I had my own community forum? I would try to make the space a place where victims could feel comfortable coming forward with accounts of harassment, and not turn away from the tough, serious discussions that need to be had in order to address systemic issues of abuse and discrimination. But regardless of my hypothetical forum and your hypothetical forum, we're on the TL forum and they already have some rules in place: https://tl.net/forum/articles/17911-tlnet-10-commandments (The word "tribunal" doesn't appear in those TL rules, btw.) I'm not talking about censorship and rules, and I don't know why you bring that up. I don't think anything should be censored. What types of stories do you think of someone who did something wrong should be discussed, and what stories do not deserve to be discussed and debated publicly? You're telling people that story X should be made public but story Y shouldn't be made public, despite them both clearly corroborating against Rapid. I have no problem discussing the full spectrum of stories so that they can be properly explored and assessed and used to inform us all on what is and isn't appropriate, but I'm not interested in speaking further on what I would personally, hypothetically allow. That's irrelevant. This thread is about sexual harassment and abuse in StarCraft, and if you insist on being the arbiter of what's appropriate or not to post, then I can only hope that you get recalled out of here. I'm saying WE, as a community, should give public importance to this story, and WE should not give public importance to this other story. Anyone can say whatever they want. What if I say that WE as a community should should give public importance to both of the stories? Welcome to the last 5 pages of this thread. Untrue originally you were arguing nothing was illegal and now instead of admiting you were wrong youve moved the goal posts to whatever this is. I originally said : Not sure how to feel about this one.
The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public.
In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum.This is everything I stood for from the beginning. He never did anything illegal to her, never said otherwise. It corroborates the other accusations though. Apropos of nothing, I would say that perhaps it’s on the borderline of what should be in the public domain. On the back of these harassment accusations it is merely ‘here are my experiences that are similar with the same individual.’ I don’t understand why this one crosses a particular line.
I presented this point earlier and it was ignored, so I'll just chime in to say I agree with this.
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Northern Ireland25824 Posts
On June 27 2020 08:37 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 08:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 27 2020 07:49 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 07:46 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 07:41 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 07:39 Oukka wrote:On June 27 2020 07:36 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 07:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 07:20 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 07:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:[quote] If I had my own community forum? I would try to make the space a place where victims could feel comfortable coming forward with accounts of harassment, and not turn away from the tough, serious discussions that need to be had in order to address systemic issues of abuse and discrimination. But regardless of my hypothetical forum and your hypothetical forum, we're on the TL forum and they already have some rules in place: https://tl.net/forum/articles/17911-tlnet-10-commandments (The word "tribunal" doesn't appear in those TL rules, btw.) I'm not talking about censorship and rules, and I don't know why you bring that up. I don't think anything should be censored. What types of stories do you think of someone who did something wrong should be discussed, and what stories do not deserve to be discussed and debated publicly? You're telling people that story X should be made public but story Y shouldn't be made public, despite them both clearly corroborating against Rapid. I have no problem discussing the full spectrum of stories so that they can be properly explored and assessed and used to inform us all on what is and isn't appropriate, but I'm not interested in speaking further on what I would personally, hypothetically allow. That's irrelevant. This thread is about sexual harassment and abuse in StarCraft, and if you insist on being the arbiter of what's appropriate or not to post, then I can only hope that you get recalled out of here. I'm saying WE, as a community, should give public importance to this story, and WE should not give public importance to this other story. Anyone can say whatever they want. What if I say that WE as a community should should give public importance to both of the stories? Welcome to the last 5 pages of this thread. Untrue originally you were arguing nothing was illegal and now instead of admiting you were wrong youve moved the goal posts to whatever this is. I originally said : Not sure how to feel about this one.
The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public.
In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum.This is everything I stood for from the beginning. He never did anything illegal to her, never said otherwise. It corroborates the other accusations though. Apropos of nothing, I would say that perhaps it’s on the borderline of what should be in the public domain. On the back of these harassment accusations it is merely ‘here are my experiences that are similar with the same individual.’ I don’t understand why this one crosses a particular line. I presented this point earlier and it was ignored, so I'll just chime in to say I agree with this.
I saw and your point was well made. It seemed to be ignored so I thought it right to reiterate it.
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Has Rapid made a statement yet?
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On June 27 2020 08:35 Oukka wrote:A lot of the good of MeToo has been that people have been slightly more willing to speak up, and I think putting a bar too high would do more harm to that.
We still have to put a bar somewhere, don't you think?
I agree that anyone should be free to speak up. I'm almost an extremist pro free speak.
But then, if we're to collectively judge someone that belongs in the community, we also need to determine what we should judge him on. Surely we can all think of some information and allegations that wouldn't matter here.
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On June 27 2020 09:08 raptor11234 wrote:
Has Rapid made a statement yet?
He's still quiet. I expected something from him days ago.. I would really like to hear his side of the story.
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The bar is don't be a bad person.
And it is obvious.
You failed to argue the bar should be "where the justice system draws it"
You have succeeded wasting a lot of time and hopefully you have failed to convert anyone into whatever shifting sand position you take next.
You fail to account for the fact that a real person has had their experience called nothing of importance by you, and you argued, literally and specifically against her of testimony being public because is it nothing. You have said that spread out over your pages of bullshit.
I am done playing nice. You are a malicious and bad person.
You are pro the freedom of speech in the same thread you are against freedom of speech.
Fuck your bullshit.
User was warned for this post.
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Northern Ireland25824 Posts
On June 27 2020 09:10 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 08:35 Oukka wrote:A lot of the good of MeToo has been that people have been slightly more willing to speak up, and I think putting a bar too high would do more harm to that.
We still have to put a bar somewhere, don't you think? I agree that anyone should be free to speak up. I'm almost an extremist pro free speak. But then, if we're to collectively judge someone that belongs in the community, we also need to determine what we should judge him on. Surely we can all think of some information and allegations that wouldn't matter here.
Why wouldn’t it? In combination with the harassment allegations
A guy being a dumbass and overstepping boundaries happens, especially if they don’t receive negative feedback.
If the same individual exhibits emotionally manipulative behaviour in a relationship situation, then the harassment behaviour is thrown into a different light.
It’s entirely relevant here. A dumbass lacking social skills overstepping a few lines into harassment territory is a totally different proposition from a person who is a calculating emotional manipulator even with a significant other.
Not saying these are definitely proven, but there’s a link between public and private behaviour and when behaviour is questioned it’s useful contextual information.
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On June 27 2020 09:10 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 08:35 Oukka wrote:A lot of the good of MeToo has been that people have been slightly more willing to speak up, and I think putting a bar too high would do more harm to that.
We still have to put a bar somewhere, don't you think? I agree that anyone should be free to speak up. I'm almost an extremist pro free speak. But then, if we're to collectively judge someone that belongs in the community, we also need to determine what we should judge him on. Surely we can all think of some information and allegations that wouldn't matter here.
Yes I absolutely agree again with you the bar has to be somewhere. But it don't think it we as outsiders have a right to set that bar. The bar is set by the person who is hurt. If they want to come forth with their story they can. We are not exactly flooded by stories of people claiming to victims of abuse when they are not, but to my understanding there is a lot of people who do not feel comfortable of speaking what has happened to them.
Also, as others including you have said before, this is not the only incident involving Rapid. It may be that an account of shitty, and in my mind coercive, behaviour in a relationship isn't enough on it's own to be worthy of public attention to this point. This however isn't isolated. She is the fifth woman to come forth about an abusive relationship with him by my count. I understand you disagree about this, but folk in here, me included, think it adds to the discussion and is valuable information. I can say that it his behaviour in this case too, at the very least, is another account of how us men are failing everyone around us by engaging in abusive behaviour that I don't see acceptable. I wouldn't want to associate with people who behave like that in person, and I don't want to associate with them by being part of the same StarCraft community either. That is why I see this account as relevant.
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On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
The bar is don't be a bad person.
And it is obvious.
You failed to argue the bar should be "where the justice system draws it"
You have succeeded wasting a lot of time and hopefully you have failed to convert anyone into whatever shifting sand position you take next.
You fail to account for the fact that a real person has had their experience called nothing of importance by you, and you argued, literally and specifically against her of testimony being public because is it nothing. You have said that spread out over your pages of bullshit.
That experience is not important relative to the sexual harassment discussion and relative to judging a member of the community. This story and this experience is certainly important to that person.
Do you seriously believe that the bar for public discussion is ''don't be a bad person''? Have you thought about everything that implies? Do you think that we should hold everyone accountable for every time they've done something ''bad'' and reveal it online?
On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
I am done playing nice. You are a malicious and bad person.
You are pro the freedom of speech in the same thread you are against freedom of speech.
Fuck your bullshit.
I have not insulted anyone and I won't start insulting you, but I would appreciate the same.
Again, you're deforming everything, I never said that she should be censored, that this story should be censored, or any such thing, as I firmly believe that anyone should be allowed to say whatever they want.
From the beginning, I said that we should simply ignore that story in a public forum, it's irrelevant to the whole situation, and then I got five people debating me for ages about it.
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It's depressing seeing adults with so little agency they don't feel they can tell a lonely nerd to cut the shit when they make the occasional awkward pass or inappropriate comment. TLO had it right - call them out in front of others and it'll stop.
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On June 27 2020 09:43 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 09:34 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
The bar is don't be a bad person.
And it is obvious.
You failed to argue the bar should be "where the justice system draws it"
You have succeeded wasting a lot of time and hopefully you have failed to convert anyone into whatever shifting sand position you take next.
You fail to account for the fact that a real person has had their experience called nothing of importance by you, and you argued, literally and specifically against her of testimony being public because is it nothing. You have said that spread out over your pages of bullshit.
That experience is not important relative to the sexual harassment discussion and relative to judging a member of the community. This story and this experience is certainly important to that person. Do you seriously believe that the bar for public discussion is ''don't be a bad person''? Have you thought about everything that implies? Do you think that we should hold everyone accountable for every time they've done something ''bad'' and reveal it online? On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
I am done playing nice. You are a malicious and bad person.
You are pro the freedom of speech in the same thread you are against freedom of speech.
Fuck your bullshit.
I have not insulted anyone and I won't start insulting you, but I would appreciate the same. Again, you're deforming everything, I never said that she should be censored, that this story should be censored, or any such thing, as I firmly believe that anyone should be allowed to say whatever they want. From the beginning, I said that we should simply ignore that story in a public forum, it's irrelevant to the whole situation, and then I got five people debating me for ages about it. You are more then welcome too, but your strategy is awful. It is getting way more discussion because of you.
It's not about trying to brush this under the rug or anything, and maybe it's getting the Barbara-Streisand effect, it doesn't matter.
Just that maybe we're collectively hitting MeToo rock bottom with this story. Maybe when we're hearing about an (allegedly toxic) relationship between two consenting adults lasting for years, we should leave our basic curiosity behind by saying yeah ok, we're good, we got enough info on the guy already.
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Northern Ireland25824 Posts
On June 27 2020 09:53 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 09:43 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 09:34 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
The bar is don't be a bad person.
And it is obvious.
You failed to argue the bar should be "where the justice system draws it"
You have succeeded wasting a lot of time and hopefully you have failed to convert anyone into whatever shifting sand position you take next.
You fail to account for the fact that a real person has had their experience called nothing of importance by you, and you argued, literally and specifically against her of testimony being public because is it nothing. You have said that spread out over your pages of bullshit.
That experience is not important relative to the sexual harassment discussion and relative to judging a member of the community. This story and this experience is certainly important to that person. Do you seriously believe that the bar for public discussion is ''don't be a bad person''? Have you thought about everything that implies? Do you think that we should hold everyone accountable for every time they've done something ''bad'' and reveal it online? On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
I am done playing nice. You are a malicious and bad person.
You are pro the freedom of speech in the same thread you are against freedom of speech.
Fuck your bullshit.
I have not insulted anyone and I won't start insulting you, but I would appreciate the same. Again, you're deforming everything, I never said that she should be censored, that this story should be censored, or any such thing, as I firmly believe that anyone should be allowed to say whatever they want. From the beginning, I said that we should simply ignore that story in a public forum, it's irrelevant to the whole situation, and then I got five people debating me for ages about it. You are more then welcome too, but your strategy is awful. It is getting way more discussion because of you. It's not about trying to brush this under the rug or anything, and maybe it's getting the Barbara-Streisand effect, it doesn't matter. Maybe we're collectively hitting MeToo rock bottom with this story. Maybe when we're hearing about an (allegedly toxic) relationship between two consenting adults lasting for years, we should leave our basic curiosity behind by saying yeah ok, we're good, we got enough info on the guy already.
Not just me but others have also countered your points on this, over and over.
You keep skipping around those points to reiterate your initial statements on this matter with different wording.
This isn’t a conversation that is developing, address criticisms of your points or don’t. Stop posting the exact same point.
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The only real solution to stopping a clearly unproductive line of discussion is to not participate any further. The waters feel heavily muddied at the moment and after many hours of selective responses and consistent reiteration without any deviation from the original points made, I can only assume that it was the intention of the poster in question. Let's move on? DPB had the right idea in his last post on the matter: agree to disagree.
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I concede to your wisdom.
I messaged all the old timey mods I could remember and I reported his post claiming to be a smurf, which I don't think we are allowed to do.
Hopefully if they dont moderate at least they can put these posts on his real account, assuming that wasn't more gaslighting.
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On June 27 2020 09:57 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 09:53 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 09:43 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 09:34 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
The bar is don't be a bad person.
And it is obvious.
You failed to argue the bar should be "where the justice system draws it"
You have succeeded wasting a lot of time and hopefully you have failed to convert anyone into whatever shifting sand position you take next.
You fail to account for the fact that a real person has had their experience called nothing of importance by you, and you argued, literally and specifically against her of testimony being public because is it nothing. You have said that spread out over your pages of bullshit.
That experience is not important relative to the sexual harassment discussion and relative to judging a member of the community. This story and this experience is certainly important to that person. Do you seriously believe that the bar for public discussion is ''don't be a bad person''? Have you thought about everything that implies? Do you think that we should hold everyone accountable for every time they've done something ''bad'' and reveal it online? On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
I am done playing nice. You are a malicious and bad person.
You are pro the freedom of speech in the same thread you are against freedom of speech.
Fuck your bullshit.
I have not insulted anyone and I won't start insulting you, but I would appreciate the same. Again, you're deforming everything, I never said that she should be censored, that this story should be censored, or any such thing, as I firmly believe that anyone should be allowed to say whatever they want. From the beginning, I said that we should simply ignore that story in a public forum, it's irrelevant to the whole situation, and then I got five people debating me for ages about it. You are more then welcome too, but your strategy is awful. It is getting way more discussion because of you. It's not about trying to brush this under the rug or anything, and maybe it's getting the Barbara-Streisand effect, it doesn't matter. Maybe we're collectively hitting MeToo rock bottom with this story. Maybe when we're hearing about an (allegedly toxic) relationship between two consenting adults lasting for years, we should leave our basic curiosity behind by saying yeah ok, we're good, we got enough info on the guy already. Not just me but others have also countered your points on this, over and over. You keep skipping around those points to reiterate your initial statements on this matter with different wording. This isn’t a conversation that is developing, address criticisms of your points or don’t. Stop posting the exact same point.
It seems like I'm also replying to the same points.
On June 27 2020 09:32 Oukka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 09:10 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 08:35 Oukka wrote:A lot of the good of MeToo has been that people have been slightly more willing to speak up, and I think putting a bar too high would do more harm to that.
We still have to put a bar somewhere, don't you think? I agree that anyone should be free to speak up. I'm almost an extremist pro free speak. But then, if we're to collectively judge someone that belongs in the community, we also need to determine what we should judge him on. Surely we can all think of some information and allegations that wouldn't matter here. Yes I absolutely agree again with you the bar has to be somewhere. But it don't think it we as outsiders have a right to set that bar. The bar is set by the person who is hurt. If they want to come forth with their story they can. We are not exactly flooded by stories of people claiming to victims of abuse when they are not, but to my understanding there is a lot of people who do not feel comfortable of speaking what has happened to them. Also, as others including you have said before, this is not the only incident involving Rapid. It may be that an account of shitty, and in my mind coercive, behaviour in a relationship isn't enough on it's own to be worthy of public attention to this point. This however isn't isolated. She is the fifth woman to come forth about an abusive relationship with him by my count. I understand you disagree about this, but folk in here, me included, think it adds to the discussion and is valuable information. I can say that it his behaviour in this case too, at the very least, is another account of how us men are failing everyone around us by engaging in abusive behaviour that I don't see acceptable. I wouldn't want to associate with people who behave like that in person, and I don't want to associate with them by being part of the same StarCraft community either. That is why I see this account as relevant.
The other problem with this story is that we know so little of what is being alleged. That person doesn't need to be specific if she doesn't want to, that's perfectly fine, we should respect that.
But how can we, as observers, deal with this story objectively and critically? Someone is accused of being ''emotionally abusive'' and ''grooming her'' without naming specific actions. It seems unfair to me to judge him on that statement, just like it would be unfair to judge someone vaguely accused of sexual harassment without specifically knowing what that person did.
It's impossible to defend against such wide statements, and it's impossible for someone else to pass a judgement on that.
On June 27 2020 10:10 AttackZerg wrote:
I messaged all the old timey mods I could remember and I reported his post claiming to be a smurf, which I don't think we are allowed to do.
Because you keep insisting about this, I will reply. I had an account with 50 posts that I used until about 2012 that I lost, I don't even remember which e-mail it was associated to, so I created a new one this year when I started playing Brood War again. Please let's stop derailling this thread with this, can we?
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Melanie - I believe you. I think your story matters. I think you are a brave person and even though we will never meet, there is someone in California who thinks that you are a fucking badass.
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Northern Ireland25824 Posts
On June 27 2020 10:23 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 09:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 27 2020 09:53 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 09:43 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 09:34 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
The bar is don't be a bad person.
And it is obvious.
You failed to argue the bar should be "where the justice system draws it"
You have succeeded wasting a lot of time and hopefully you have failed to convert anyone into whatever shifting sand position you take next.
You fail to account for the fact that a real person has had their experience called nothing of importance by you, and you argued, literally and specifically against her of testimony being public because is it nothing. You have said that spread out over your pages of bullshit.
That experience is not important relative to the sexual harassment discussion and relative to judging a member of the community. This story and this experience is certainly important to that person. Do you seriously believe that the bar for public discussion is ''don't be a bad person''? Have you thought about everything that implies? Do you think that we should hold everyone accountable for every time they've done something ''bad'' and reveal it online? On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
I am done playing nice. You are a malicious and bad person.
You are pro the freedom of speech in the same thread you are against freedom of speech.
Fuck your bullshit.
I have not insulted anyone and I won't start insulting you, but I would appreciate the same. Again, you're deforming everything, I never said that she should be censored, that this story should be censored, or any such thing, as I firmly believe that anyone should be allowed to say whatever they want. From the beginning, I said that we should simply ignore that story in a public forum, it's irrelevant to the whole situation, and then I got five people debating me for ages about it. You are more then welcome too, but your strategy is awful. It is getting way more discussion because of you. It's not about trying to brush this under the rug or anything, and maybe it's getting the Barbara-Streisand effect, it doesn't matter. Maybe we're collectively hitting MeToo rock bottom with this story. Maybe when we're hearing about an (allegedly toxic) relationship between two consenting adults lasting for years, we should leave our basic curiosity behind by saying yeah ok, we're good, we got enough info on the guy already. Not just me but others have also countered your points on this, over and over. You keep skipping around those points to reiterate your initial statements on this matter with different wording. This isn’t a conversation that is developing, address criticisms of your points or don’t. Stop posting the exact same point. It seems like I'm also replying to the same points. Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 09:32 Oukka wrote:On June 27 2020 09:10 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 08:35 Oukka wrote:A lot of the good of MeToo has been that people have been slightly more willing to speak up, and I think putting a bar too high would do more harm to that.
We still have to put a bar somewhere, don't you think? I agree that anyone should be free to speak up. I'm almost an extremist pro free speak. But then, if we're to collectively judge someone that belongs in the community, we also need to determine what we should judge him on. Surely we can all think of some information and allegations that wouldn't matter here. Yes I absolutely agree again with you the bar has to be somewhere. But it don't think it we as outsiders have a right to set that bar. The bar is set by the person who is hurt. If they want to come forth with their story they can. We are not exactly flooded by stories of people claiming to victims of abuse when they are not, but to my understanding there is a lot of people who do not feel comfortable of speaking what has happened to them. Also, as others including you have said before, this is not the only incident involving Rapid. It may be that an account of shitty, and in my mind coercive, behaviour in a relationship isn't enough on it's own to be worthy of public attention to this point. This however isn't isolated. She is the fifth woman to come forth about an abusive relationship with him by my count. I understand you disagree about this, but folk in here, me included, think it adds to the discussion and is valuable information. I can say that it his behaviour in this case too, at the very least, is another account of how us men are failing everyone around us by engaging in abusive behaviour that I don't see acceptable. I wouldn't want to associate with people who behave like that in person, and I don't want to associate with them by being part of the same StarCraft community either. That is why I see this account as relevant. The other problem with this story is that we know so little of what is being alleged. That person doesn't need to be specific if she doesn't want to, that's perfectly fine, we should respect that. But how can we, as observers, deal with this story objectively and critically? Someone is accused of being ''emotionally abusive'' and ''grooming her'' without naming specific actions. It seems unfair to me to judge him on that statement, just like it would be unfair to judge someone vaguely accused of sexual harassment without specifically knowing what that person did. It's impossible to defend against such wide statements, and it's impossible for someone else to pass a judgement on that. Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 10:10 AttackZerg wrote:
I messaged all the old timey mods I could remember and I reported his post claiming to be a smurf, which I don't think we are allowed to do.
Because you keep insisting about this, I will reply. I had an account with 50 posts that I used until about 2012 that I lost, I don't even remember which e-mail it was associated to, so I created a new one this year when I started playing Brood War again. Please let's stop derailling this thread with this, can we?
Why is it difficult to be objective on this?
You have what 4 instances of alleged harassment from 4 disparate people with similar accounts. A 5th alleging similar behaviour within the confines of a relationship. Might have the numbers wrong.
The objective position is to see a pattern here. While not necessarily thinking it is 100% damning proof.
I’d contend that to dismiss one account that showcases similar patterns of behaviour because it’s beyond some arbitrary line is absolutely not being objective here.
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Northern Ireland25824 Posts
You’re saying accusations of emotional abuse in a relatiosjgio are irrelevant to accusations of sexual harassment, which is preposterous.
Most of my female friends have been burned by some person in their history. If I knew someone they were romancing had multiple accusations of being abusive and I didn’t tell them out of a fear of not being ‘objective’ they’d be pissed with me, and rightly so.
Had a former friend, kept friends with him despite his ex who I was also friends with accusing him of stuff. Over the years two other people who’d dated him, didn’t know each other or the ex but that I knew made similar accusations.
At that point no, one can be ‘objective’ or confront that a good friend has behaved abominably with 3 separate women and do with that what you want.
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On June 27 2020 10:41 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 10:23 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 09:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 27 2020 09:53 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 09:43 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 09:34 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
The bar is don't be a bad person.
And it is obvious.
You failed to argue the bar should be "where the justice system draws it"
You have succeeded wasting a lot of time and hopefully you have failed to convert anyone into whatever shifting sand position you take next.
You fail to account for the fact that a real person has had their experience called nothing of importance by you, and you argued, literally and specifically against her of testimony being public because is it nothing. You have said that spread out over your pages of bullshit.
That experience is not important relative to the sexual harassment discussion and relative to judging a member of the community. This story and this experience is certainly important to that person. Do you seriously believe that the bar for public discussion is ''don't be a bad person''? Have you thought about everything that implies? Do you think that we should hold everyone accountable for every time they've done something ''bad'' and reveal it online? On June 27 2020 09:22 AttackZerg wrote:
I am done playing nice. You are a malicious and bad person.
You are pro the freedom of speech in the same thread you are against freedom of speech.
Fuck your bullshit.
I have not insulted anyone and I won't start insulting you, but I would appreciate the same. Again, you're deforming everything, I never said that she should be censored, that this story should be censored, or any such thing, as I firmly believe that anyone should be allowed to say whatever they want. From the beginning, I said that we should simply ignore that story in a public forum, it's irrelevant to the whole situation, and then I got five people debating me for ages about it. You are more then welcome too, but your strategy is awful. It is getting way more discussion because of you. It's not about trying to brush this under the rug or anything, and maybe it's getting the Barbara-Streisand effect, it doesn't matter. Maybe we're collectively hitting MeToo rock bottom with this story. Maybe when we're hearing about an (allegedly toxic) relationship between two consenting adults lasting for years, we should leave our basic curiosity behind by saying yeah ok, we're good, we got enough info on the guy already. Not just me but others have also countered your points on this, over and over. You keep skipping around those points to reiterate your initial statements on this matter with different wording. This isn’t a conversation that is developing, address criticisms of your points or don’t. Stop posting the exact same point. It seems like I'm also replying to the same points. On June 27 2020 09:32 Oukka wrote:On June 27 2020 09:10 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 08:35 Oukka wrote:A lot of the good of MeToo has been that people have been slightly more willing to speak up, and I think putting a bar too high would do more harm to that.
We still have to put a bar somewhere, don't you think? I agree that anyone should be free to speak up. I'm almost an extremist pro free speak. But then, if we're to collectively judge someone that belongs in the community, we also need to determine what we should judge him on. Surely we can all think of some information and allegations that wouldn't matter here. Yes I absolutely agree again with you the bar has to be somewhere. But it don't think it we as outsiders have a right to set that bar. The bar is set by the person who is hurt. If they want to come forth with their story they can. We are not exactly flooded by stories of people claiming to victims of abuse when they are not, but to my understanding there is a lot of people who do not feel comfortable of speaking what has happened to them. Also, as others including you have said before, this is not the only incident involving Rapid. It may be that an account of shitty, and in my mind coercive, behaviour in a relationship isn't enough on it's own to be worthy of public attention to this point. This however isn't isolated. She is the fifth woman to come forth about an abusive relationship with him by my count. I understand you disagree about this, but folk in here, me included, think it adds to the discussion and is valuable information. I can say that it his behaviour in this case too, at the very least, is another account of how us men are failing everyone around us by engaging in abusive behaviour that I don't see acceptable. I wouldn't want to associate with people who behave like that in person, and I don't want to associate with them by being part of the same StarCraft community either. That is why I see this account as relevant. The other problem with this story is that we know so little of what is being alleged. That person doesn't need to be specific if she doesn't want to, that's perfectly fine, we should respect that. But how can we, as observers, deal with this story objectively and critically? Someone is accused of being ''emotionally abusive'' and ''grooming her'' without naming specific actions. It seems unfair to me to judge him on that statement, just like it would be unfair to judge someone vaguely accused of sexual harassment without specifically knowing what that person did. It's impossible to defend against such wide statements, and it's impossible for someone else to pass a judgement on that. On June 27 2020 10:10 AttackZerg wrote:
I messaged all the old timey mods I could remember and I reported his post claiming to be a smurf, which I don't think we are allowed to do.
Because you keep insisting about this, I will reply. I had an account with 50 posts that I used until about 2012 that I lost, I don't even remember which e-mail it was associated to, so I created a new one this year when I started playing Brood War again. Please let's stop derailling this thread with this, can we? Why is it difficult to be objective on this? You have what 4 instances of alleged harassment from 4 disparate people with similar accounts. A 5th alleging similar behaviour within the confines of a relationship. Might have the numbers wrong. The objective position is to see a pattern here. While not necessarily thinking it is 100% damning proof. I’d contend that to dismiss one account that showcases similar patterns of behaviour because it’s beyond some arbitrary line is absolutely not being objective here.
Emotional abuse can be a VERY WIDE range of bevahiors, just like sexual harassment, and can also imply a very wide range of gravity.
A broad statement such as ''I was emotionally abused'' is not enough to pass a judgement on someone, at all, and therefore cannot be considered. Even with other allegations standing, it wouldn't be fair.
On June 27 2020 10:41 Wombat_NI wrote:
Most of my female friends have been burned by some person in their history. If I knew someone they were romancing had multiple accusations of being abusive and I didn’t tell them out of a fear of not being ‘objective’ they’d be pissed with me, and rightly so.
Had a former friend, kept friends with him despite his ex who I was also friends with accusing him of stuff. Over the years two other people who’d dated him, didn’t know each other or the ex but that I knew made similar accusations.
At that point no, one can be ‘objective’ or confront that a good friend has behaved abominably with 3 separate women and do with that what you want.
If we're talking about the private sphere, I agree 100%, those are legitimate concerns and worth talking about.
Should this be broad knowledge on the public sphere about a guy who sometimes casted Brood War games to 500 viewers at a time max? Not so much.
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