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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 27 2020 17:43 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 17:25 Penev wrote:
It doesn't seem appropriate when someone without a report button starts calling people names regardless of how much I and or others agree with the overall opinion expressed. The moderation team has already had a discussion with me. This thread is not really a debate between two equally valid stances but rather an attempt by a handful to help educate and untangle the ignorant gaslighting posts by others. The overall opinion is in favor of supporting the people speaking out, and a small handful of people are trying to distract or dilute the message with nonsensical theoretical arguments that are designed to just make the other side give up rather than prove anything meaningful. The moderation team is unfortunately bound by strictures to try and keep an open, civil discourse so that TL.net doesn't go the way of censorship. While I (again) greatly appreciate the people who are engaging the troll posts in a level-headed manner, I also think it's important to single out those who do not contribute to the discussion in any meaningful or valid way with the most blunt and straightforward language.
I'm aware what the thread is about and I still don't think you should be able to abuse your lack of a report button. Furthermore your name calling is undermining the level-headed responses of the others you agree with.
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How is it that you don’t know about website feedback? No one here is immune from criticism or correction, and there’s nothing remotely deserving the term “abuse” going on here other than the acts of people being discussed.
That said, thank you for your posts EsportsJohn.
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On June 27 2020 18:46 farvacola wrote:
How is it that you don’t know about website feedback?
Penev has been around long enough to not think that there's any point in posting to website feedback over directly talking to the person in question. If any of us made that first post John made we'd have been banned for at least a week (see TheRedViper's ban in this thread) while he can't even be reported. Pointing that out, whether it's here or in website feedback, will not make a difference.
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A mod was literally removed less than a month or two ago in relation to posts made in website feedback, so that’s nonsense, but go ahead and pretend it’s oh so unfair that people with close recognized ties to the site are treated exactly as the rules state.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 27 2020 18:10 Litwos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 17:43 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 27 2020 17:25 Penev wrote:
It doesn't seem appropriate when someone without a report button starts calling people names regardless of how much I and or others agree with the overall opinion expressed. The moderation team has already had a discussion with me. This thread is not really a debate between two equally valid stances but rather an attempt by a handful to help educate and untangle the ignorant gaslighting posts by others. The overall opinion is in favor of supporting the people speaking out, and a small handful of people are trying to distract or dilute the message with nonsensical theoretical arguments that are designed to just make the other side give up rather than prove anything meaningful. The moderation team is unfortunately bound by strictures to try and keep an open, civil discourse so that TL.net doesn't go the way of censorship. While I (again) greatly appreciate the people who are engaging the troll posts in a level-headed manner, I also think it's important to single out those who do not contribute to the discussion in any meaningful or valid way with the most blunt and straightforward language. I don't want to diverge the discussion and attention outside of main topic here, but I must say that nothing of what you said here above entitles you to call someone idiot. I think every conversation should be based on respect and understanding. Personal, inter-thread argues that break into insults should be moderated according to the rules.
Okay, smurf.
EDIT: But yes, I probably should have been banned for a week. My original post on Page 12 was posted without the knowledge that I didn't have a report button, so I actually expected to get banned. Nonetheless, I do not regret my posts, and I want to reiterate that this is not a conversation. We're not discussing the virtues of whether it's okay to ignore or dismiss people who have potentially been abused; that's not up for debate.
Gaslighting and nonsensical posts will be called out for what they are.
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On June 27 2020 18:46 farvacola wrote:
How is it that you don’t know about website feedback? No one here is immune from criticism or correction, and there’s nothing remotely deserving the term “abuse” going on here other than the acts of people being discussed.
That said, thank you for your posts EsportsJohn.
FYI, if EsportsJohn did have a report button I wouldn't have used it, but others might have. I obviously wanted to adress this point personally and publicly, so I did. Also you could have just been (needlessly) informative about website feedback but you chose to pose a question in a degrading manner for no reason.
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On June 27 2020 19:01 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 18:46 farvacola wrote:
How is it that you don’t know about website feedback? No one here is immune from criticism or correction, and there’s nothing remotely deserving the term “abuse” going on here other than the acts of people being discussed.
That said, thank you for your posts EsportsJohn. FYI, if EsportsJohn did have a report button I wouldn't have used it, but others might have. I obviously wanted to adress this point personally and publicly, so I did. Also you could have just been (needlessly) informative about website feedback but you chose to pose a question in a degrading manner for no reason.
Thank you for using that word, maybe the host of endlessly skeptical posters in here who question the damage done by awful abusive behavior can grasp the gravity of what is done if they consider that a forum veteran being told to use website feedback in forceful terms is “degrading.”
If “you’ve been here long enough to know the process for raising concerns regarding non-reportable posters” can constitute degrading speech, imagine how these poor women and men feel when they’re treated much much worse.
Regardless, I apologize for degrading you with a reminder of the websites rules, that was uncalled for.
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On June 27 2020 19:05 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 19:01 Penev wrote:On June 27 2020 18:46 farvacola wrote:
How is it that you don’t know about website feedback? No one here is immune from criticism or correction, and there’s nothing remotely deserving the term “abuse” going on here other than the acts of people being discussed.
That said, thank you for your posts EsportsJohn. FYI, if EsportsJohn did have a report button I wouldn't have used it, but others might have. I obviously wanted to adress this point personally and publicly, so I did. Also you could have just been (needlessly) informative about website feedback but you chose to pose a question in a degrading manner for no reason. Thank you for using that word, maybe the host of endlessly skeptical posters in here who question the damage done by awful abusive behavior can grasp the gravity of what is done if they consider that a forum veteran being told to use website feedback in forceful terms is “degrading.” If “you’ve been here long enough to know the process for raising concerns regarding non-reportable posters” can constitute degrading speech, imagine how these poor women and men feel when they’re treated much much worse. Regardless, I apologize for degrading you with a reminder of the websites rules, that was uncalled for.
I don't need someone to tell me to imagine what these people have been through. You don't know me don't pretend you do. I could have used website feedback, I have in the past, but I deliberately chose not to. I regard EsportsJohn a user I can directly and publicly respond to like every other user. Now lets not derail this thread any longer.
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On June 27 2020 14:58 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:For those lurking at home who would like a quick summary of the last few pages, this new post-Melanie conversation that mcgormack is engaging in is a great example of the term "gaslighting": "Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment, often evoking in them cognitive dissonance and other changes including low self-esteem. Using denial, misdirection, contradiction, and misinformation, gaslighting involves attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim's beliefs. Instances can range from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents occurred, to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim." ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting After multiple people have already stepped forward and given similar, corroborating stories about receiving dick pics, feeling abused, and being harassed by Rapid (Reid), an additional person named Melanie came forward and publicly wrote this: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9qgu It includes the following statements: -"Reid and i have had an emotionally abusive relationship for years." -"Reid groomed me. For those needing a definition ‘Sexual grooming’ is the process of deliberately establishing a connection in order to prepare a person for sexual exploitation and/or abuse." -"He sent me an unsolicited dick pic soon after (this was within a week of talking and dming)." -"I felt ashamed but I hid it well." -"Telling him i’m hurt meant being apologized to in the moment, and objectified the next morning." -"He exploited my feelings for him." -"I questioned my morals, sacrificed my own self worth, my sanity, and my pride to do whatever would make him happy. But please try to understand that this entire situation with him has always just been confusing, which stems from having been groomed." [this is Melanie also realizing that she's been gaslit by Rapid] -"I know he’s caused hurt to others, and to me." And mcgormack has been responding with dismissals and excuses like these: "In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public." (Note the facts that Melanie did not actually consent to everything she recounted and she did explicitly state she felt abused, exploited, and groomed.) "This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship." (Having conversations with someone for seven days does not automatically grant you the right to send them dick pics, and having sex in a relationship does not mean that you cannot be abused or exploited by that sex partner before, during, or after sex.) "If someone sends a dick pic and you go along with it and reply ''hot'', it's not sexual harassment." (There is no evidence that Melanie replied with this; it's a strawman. And even if she did, that doesn't make the rest of her abusive relationship acceptable. We don't know if Melanie said anything in response to the dick pic, but what Melanie did explain - repeatedly - is that she was abused and groomed and exploited.) "In this case, she went along with it, and engaged in a relationship with the guy. There is no harassment, period." (This is classic victim blaming, and also falsely asserts that you can't be harassed by someone who you ultimately enter into a relationship with.) "What's next? A girl he insulted when he was in high school will come out? Maybe he maphacked too in Starcraft once?" (Obvious strawmen, which are not remotely comparable to Melanie's relationship with Rapid.) "Yes, you can do a million things that are illegal to your wife. Here, nothing illegal. only things that are claimed to be immoral, and no specifics. Are we gonna publicly judge everyone who did ''wrong'' things to their spouse now?" (Putting aside the obviously insane legal issues that should also be addressed, notice the explicit gaslighting of ethics here: mcgormack's rewriting of reality has become more extreme, to the point where he's making it sound crazy to publicly judge people who have done "wrong things" to their spouses. Under any other circumstances, of course we would take seriously any abuse or harassment allegations towards significant others, and yet mcgormack is trying to set a stage in which entering into a relationship means - by definition - that any claim of being a victim of "wrongdoing" is off the table. He argues that believing Melanie will cause us to wind up committing a slippery slope fallacy, as if to say something like " what's next, judging abusive spouses!?") "With the (few) facts that we know of, there is no tribunal in the US that would condemn Rapid for harassment against this girl." (A tribunal is a court of law, and mcgormack is essentially replacing "believing Melanie's story" with "it wouldn't hold up in the legal system as a criminal charge". He's insisting for an unreasonably high burden of proof, when in reality the discussion in this thread has been about whether or not we are willing to listen to victims and whether or not we should excommunicate Rapid and other abusers, rather than attempt to formally press charges.) "This is where I draw the line, it doesn't deserve to be public." And with people like you, mcgormack, it's unsurprising why so many victims don't feel comfortable telling their stories. Thankfully, a number of other posters have been responding to your nonsense with common sense. While you clearly don't believe Melanie, it would be great if you listened to at least one thing she wrote, in the very first paragraph of her story: "Believe victims, assholes." Re-posting because he has muddied the waters to the point of invisibility.
I appreciate the repost 
We should also keep in mind that there have been other examples of harassment besides the stories about Rapid and Avilo. I wonder if it's likely that we'll hear any new information about the other people; it probably depends on whether or not they're still a part of the e-sports community.
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On June 27 2020 12:57 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 12:17 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 11:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
Absolutely it should be. If you’re a woman dealing with someone do you want to know if they’re a sexual predator or not?
A friend tells you, about another friend that you know, ''I was emotionally abused by that person''. Before passing a judgement on the accused, the first thing that a reasonable person will ask, rightfully so, will be ''oh ok, what happened?''If ''I was emotionally abused'' is enough information for you to pass a judgement on someone accused of it, I feel like this is unreasonable and unfair. Keeping a critical sense and expecting more information from such a broad statement is not the same as not believing the victim or discrediting at all. These types of accusations have serious consequences to everyone involved, and unfortunately, strictly in terms of judging the guy, this one story doesn't bring much on the table. That's why I've read every account of sexual harassment and assault in this thread. Literally every single one of them details in what way they were abused. You're an idiot, please stop arguing.
not talking about arguments at all here, but perhaps you should not call mcgormack an idiot? I noticed he received a friendly "fuck you" or "fuck your bullshit" from Attackzerg earlier and i haven't seen him insult anybody so far.
You guys are not entitled to insult him just because you disagree with him. Especially when your TL staff.
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Northern Ireland23252 Posts
On June 27 2020 15:17 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 15:11 AttackZerg wrote:More from Melanie's post, ".... The things i've said and done to please him go against many of my personal beliefs. But persuading me to engage in some humiliating acts, i allowed that to happen even though i didn’t want it to, was just gross and made my skin crawl. Allowing the relationship we had to persist offered him the ability to exercise his devious superiority. He objectified me. He made me play these sick twisted games to get him off and brushed them off as exploring our kinks and sexuality. I’m working on healing from this. .... " www.twitlonger.comI don't want casters who treat people like this. I still have no idea what he did. Do you? We're not just supporting someone who's sharing her story. We're also condemning someone, because names were given. And if we're condemning someone, that type of information matters. This is a subjective story, and it's important for the victims that subjective stories are expressed. When it comes to discussing about the accused though, a more objective version is needed. If I say ''this person treated me like shit'', it can mean a very wide range of behaviors, from ignoring me to punching me in the face.
In the absence of the other accounts I would perhaps need more clarification. As an additional account building on those I have more than a fair idea. I’m not sure how much additional detail would be required in an account without it crossing over into being overly lurid.
It’s difficult enough to come forward and say you were naive and went along with behaviour you now see as abusive without delving into hardcore detail.
As someone who for the second time in my life is having to help a woman recover from the damage the previous guy did to them, I guess I immediately know what is being talked about here, others may not. Flinching when I do something innocuous because that’s what the previous guy did before demanding sex, these behaviours can do a lot of long-term damage.
I echo AttackZerg on this one. My sister isn’t quite the same age as the youngest alleged incidents, not far off.
Would I want her to go to a StarCraft related event with a meet and greet with Rapid afterwards if I wasn’t chaperoning? Absolutely not based on what information is currently there.
This is usually the weekend there’s a huge amateur-run convention in my native Belfast, that I usually cast Starcraft at, alas the ‘Rona got it.
Despite having done it for 8 years and knowing the drill, we still have to come for the training/safety day. Don’t be alone with under 18s is a big one. Do not make lewd or offensive statements around attendees for any reason, especially under 18s. Jokes may not be taken as jokes by people who aren’t your friends.
There’s also a clearly communicated escalation process, that is acted upon too. I’ve not had to but I know volunteers have been booted for transgressions, the police had to be called on adults behaving strangely around underage cosplayers (sex offenders quel surprise) etc.
Rather unrelated to the first half of my post, but if an entirely volunteer-run convention that caters for thousands over a weekend can manage safeguarding well, the professional side of eSports really needs to step up. Indeed I know some do a good job here so that’s not a broad brush.
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Northern Ireland23252 Posts
On June 27 2020 19:39 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 12:57 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 27 2020 12:17 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 11:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
Absolutely it should be. If you’re a woman dealing with someone do you want to know if they’re a sexual predator or not?
A friend tells you, about another friend that you know, ''I was emotionally abused by that person''. Before passing a judgement on the accused, the first thing that a reasonable person will ask, rightfully so, will be ''oh ok, what happened?''If ''I was emotionally abused'' is enough information for you to pass a judgement on someone accused of it, I feel like this is unreasonable and unfair. Keeping a critical sense and expecting more information from such a broad statement is not the same as not believing the victim or discrediting at all. These types of accusations have serious consequences to everyone involved, and unfortunately, strictly in terms of judging the guy, this one story doesn't bring much on the table. That's why I've read every account of sexual harassment and assault in this thread. Literally every single one of them details in what way they were abused. You're an idiot, please stop arguing. not talking about arguments at all here, but perhaps you should not call mcgormack an idiot? I noticed he received a friendly "fuck you" or "fuck your bullshit" from Attackzerg earlier and i haven't seen him insult anybody so far. You guys are not entitled to insult him just because you disagree with him. Especially when your TL staff.
Ideally not, I’m increasingly OK with it though.
Civility is just another tool people who engage in sealioning hide behind to continually deflect or derail. I don’t think mcgormack has stepped over that particular line but others in the thread definitely have.
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On June 27 2020 20:39 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 19:39 Cele wrote:On June 27 2020 12:57 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 27 2020 12:17 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 11:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
Absolutely it should be. If you’re a woman dealing with someone do you want to know if they’re a sexual predator or not?
A friend tells you, about another friend that you know, ''I was emotionally abused by that person''. Before passing a judgement on the accused, the first thing that a reasonable person will ask, rightfully so, will be ''oh ok, what happened?''If ''I was emotionally abused'' is enough information for you to pass a judgement on someone accused of it, I feel like this is unreasonable and unfair. Keeping a critical sense and expecting more information from such a broad statement is not the same as not believing the victim or discrediting at all. These types of accusations have serious consequences to everyone involved, and unfortunately, strictly in terms of judging the guy, this one story doesn't bring much on the table. That's why I've read every account of sexual harassment and assault in this thread. Literally every single one of them details in what way they were abused. You're an idiot, please stop arguing. not talking about arguments at all here, but perhaps you should not call mcgormack an idiot? I noticed he received a friendly "fuck you" or "fuck your bullshit" from Attackzerg earlier and i haven't seen him insult anybody so far. You guys are not entitled to insult him just because you disagree with him. Especially when your TL staff.
Ideally not, I’m increasingly OK with it though. Civility is just another tool people who engage in sealioning hide behind to continually deflect or derail. I don’t think mcgormack has stepped over that particular line but others in the thread definitely have.
you don't get to judge on who is trolling for evidence and who has a point that he or she actually believes in.One may certainly do that in private but one may not take that as an excuse to just disregard basic decency.
It would be the same if i came here and started insulting people, who in my opinion, are not acting in good faith but use this thread as an nice chance to throw insults without repercussions. Or who are just here because they have a personal beef with one of the accused and use the available option to bash on them. I could name more possible examples of arguments made not in good faith from the other side of the fence.
To be clear: i haven't done so and will not because i highly dislike the way of having a convo that, unfortunately inspired by reddit and twitter, has become quite popular among a couple of users in this place.
But if one wants open the door for insulting people because one thinks he is entitled too as he doesn't see the good faith argument of one side, one is opening that door for both parties. Then we can throw the second commandment right out of the window in any thread that likely might stir up drama and insult each other to our hearts content.
i don't want that. who would?
€: for clarification: im talking very distinctively about a general impression i have in this thread and not you as a person. I haven't seen a post by you that i would criticize in that regard.
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You know I was never a big incontrol fan - we never got along in the forums or in game, but god damn if wasn't he a better person then many of the community founders and veterans.
He has done more postmortem to provide strength and support than many of you.
A lot of you will be pretending you are so sad that he passed soon, and saying he was such a good person, and his best quality was his big heart and literally on an issue that fucking giant of a man would have been on the ground fucking floor - you say nothing.
Incontrol could have won every point, with every poster by his god damn self with more wit and ability then I could get with three wishes and a generous genie. He used to bulldog people with a laser focus and a gift of language that few have.
Teamliquid.net is where incontrol fought battles like these.
This is a battle like this.
I have never been more sad that he is gone.
He was such a dick to me, but at least I could go to bed right now and know that if some asshole came here to dump on a women because she had courage to speak out, I would wake up to a masterclass on essay writing and I would never hear from that poster again.
I don't mean anything negative to the good people doing good work.
I just realized how truly small in talent and ability I am in the wake of such a force of nature and if he was here this whole thing would be better, just him being here.
Now I have shed my first tears for incontrol.
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To Cele, .
I fully expected the moderators to do their fucking jobs and censure and-or ban me for my words.
They have decided to keep there hands off for now and allow some bullshit.
I agree with you, when I said those things, I was making it very clear, CIVIL DISCOURSE IS OVER.
after 17 years here, normally the mods aren't such cowards and immediately step in once a conversation is clearly not productive.
I should have been banned, so should the person I was speaking with.
Don't worry, we will see some moderation here tomorrow.
To repeat, I do agree with you and when I decided to speak truth about the person I had been 'debating' with for 6 hours, I was choosing to express myself and not give a shit what moderators think. It was not an accident. I am a self aware adult who realized their silence is tactic support for some bullshit and at that point. They aren't tl.net mods, they are back drop.
I mean normally, I don't want to get banned because it hurts my feelings, embarrasses me and in my heart I do want to be a positive contributor, so normally it matters but:
I do truly think,
"He is a malicious and bad person"
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I think there's a few people here who don't realize that in the politics thread we have seen all of these distraction tactics before, over and over:
-hyper focus on insignificant details
-appeals to civlity
-similarly, appeals to tolerance of sexism, racism in the name of either civility or liberty (what a man does in his own home in a consensual relationship etc.)
-appeals to mods to moderate the 'other side' (this really frustrates me. I'm sure the mods are watching and you can just use the report button instead of talking about it in the thread)
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United States4883 Posts
@AttackZerg This post was not a good idea. As the old adage goes: "If it's after 2 o'clock, just go to bed". The mods have been very hands off in this discussion to ensure that TL stays a place of open discourse and is not moderated with extreme bias beyond the levels of human decency and fairness, and that is a really good thing. Please don't drag them into this, and please don't drag Geoff into this either without context.
It might be about time to lock this thread. There's been enough discussion to the point where I don't think we're going over anything new, and the last page and a half has basically derailed into a debate on what should or shouldn't be allowed to be posted on TLnet. We've made our positions on the matter clear.
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The rudeness is myopic and counterproductive. It's a delusion that civility is just a ploy or an obstacle. We can see from this discussion that it is not because if people really thought running roughshod over others verbally was so justified they wouldn't feel the need to defend themselves over it and now ask for the thread to be closed because the discussion has been distracted. You distracted yourselves by giving people a way to attack you that isn't directly connected to the issues at hand. A lesson to be learned hopefully. Don't be rude and people trying to discredit you by saying you're rude look like fools. Don't give people looking for any way to scream 'hey look!, a squirrel!' a squirrel.
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Taken from an earlier post of mine, I hope we can each consider making some changes to how we perceive and address harassment and abuse, as well as recognize certain signs that can lead to these. We can both proactively and reactively help make a difference in this community. Some ideas:
Proactively: Help create an environment that nips offensive and inappropriate behavior and actions in the bud, like speaking out against people who make offensive jokes (especially about individuals). It can be very tough to stand up to a friend (or anyone, really), but you don't need to worry about a huge, grandstanding, public stunt; a lot of this can be addressed in the everyday dialogues we have with one another, about what's not really cool to say, and why it isn't cool to say it. This link can help elaborate on sketchy scenarios that are often misunderstood as acceptable, when in reality they are not: https://medium.com/@keepingitKyle/flirting-for-morons-258b92ff614b
It simply isn't enough to not be the actual abuser (or sexist, or racist, etc.). One has to actively be anti-abuse (or anti-sexist, or anti-racist, etc.). It's the difference between being non-X (I didn't do it) and anti-X (I'm trying to prevent it from happening). There are no innocent bystanders when it comes to the perpetuation of things like abuse and harassment; staying silent when you could have addressed something in the past means you enabled it. That doesn't make you the world's worst person, but we can all do a better job of being a voice of reason; yours could be the voice that resonates most with someone who otherwise assumes their bad behavior is acceptable... yours could be the voice that ultimately stops a situation from escalating. Education and prevention are the best-case scenarios. We also can't assume that every victim or potential victim has the capacity to say No (more on that in the above link, too), so this is why it's a community effort. We can all do something.
Reactively: After the abuse has happened and it's being revealed by the victims, believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. + Show Spoiler +Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. Believe their stories. + Show Spoiler +Seriously, believe their stories.
Here's my general understanding of the conditional sequence, and why it's important for all of us to play a role:
Having a community that takes abuse seriously, actively works to prevent and address these issues, and supports victims -> Fewer people will be abusers, and a higher percentage of the remaining victims will come forward -> Some potential abusers will realize that what they want to do isn't okay, and those who are still abusers will be held accountable -> Less abuse overall, and a safer, better community for everyone.
In terms of accountability, we should consider contacting organizations that the abusers represent, not rehiring them for relevant gigs, and other ways to totally remove them from the limelight. There needs to be consequences. Excommunication sounds scary and extremist, but having the person continue abusing people within our scene is way worse. Those who are friendly with the abuser should consider assisting the abuser in obtaining the help they need (starting with a better education on the matter), and there are many resources to help people realize what are, and are not, good social practices (again, starting with the link above).
Of course, we also need to make sure the victims are okay, and listen to them about what they need and want from our community. Some victims see abuse as an isolated incident and compartmentalize the abuser away from the rest of the community, while other victims necessarily lose trust in the entire scene, due to systemic issues. We have a responsibility to help rebuild that trust with the victims (if they're willing to give *us* another chance), by listening to them and what advice they could give us to do better. We can all do better.
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On June 27 2020 17:00 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 14:40 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 12:57 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 27 2020 12:17 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 11:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
Absolutely it should be. If you’re a woman dealing with someone do you want to know if they’re a sexual predator or not?
A friend tells you, about another friend that you know, ''I was emotionally abused by that person''. Before passing a judgement on the accused, the first thing that a reasonable person will ask, rightfully so, will be ''oh ok, what happened?''If ''I was emotionally abused'' is enough information for you to pass a judgement on someone accused of it, I feel like this is unreasonable and unfair. Keeping a critical sense and expecting more information from such a broad statement is not the same as not believing the victim or discrediting at all. These types of accusations have serious consequences to everyone involved, and unfortunately, strictly in terms of judging the guy, this one story doesn't bring much on the table. That's why I've read every account of sexual harassment and assault in this thread. Literally every single one of them details in what way they were abused. You're an idiot, please stop arguing. Every sexual harassment account mentionned against Rapid was detailled enough so we all know what we're talking about (talking about his dick to random women and dick pics), and that's absolutely fair. Same for Avilo. If we're gonna condemn someone in this community, we better know for what reason. Our discussions would have been very different if the stories were about vague ''sexual harassment'', let's not pretend otherwise. Also, I'm being respectful and I'd please appreciate the same treatment. There's literally no point to your posts then. You are using a hypothetical that doesn't even exist. EDIT: If you had seen my other posts, you would have realized that calling you an idiot was pretty respectful for me.
Rapid is here being accused broadly of ''emotional abuse'', ''grooming'', being ''exploitative''. Those are not facts but conclusions. We cannot condemn someone based on such pre-established conclusions, we need facts.
Just like we would not have condemned so easily Rapid for the other stories if we was broadly accused of ''sexual harassment'' by the other accusers, without further details. The hypothesis was to draw a parallel between the stories.
On June 27 2020 16:41 AttackZerg wrote:More from Melanie's post ".... On Tuesday 06/23/2020 Reid and i had a conversation i never thought we would have and it was a little sus that he even brought it up. Since i’m not apart of the scene, he had rightfully assumed i hadn’t heard anything or knew that he had been accused of such things. In our conversation, he didn’t directly apologize for it, but he mentioned having done it to me. God knows how many other girls he’s done it to now as well. ..." www.twitlonger.comYou have spent 14 hours in this thread writing, Reid has spent his time reaching out to victims and doing damage control and not apologizing. He hasn't denied anything. I believe women of color and I think they are regularly dehumanized and de-legitimatized in public spaces like this. Her testimony should matter and it does.
Sure, when you don't know what to reply, make this about skin color, when it is utterly, completely irrevelant, and bringing up InControl on top of that to elevate you somehow... I don't think this is appropriate at all in this discussion, and it seems like bad faith.
On June 27 2020 20:29 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 15:17 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 15:11 AttackZerg wrote:More from Melanie's post, ".... The things i've said and done to please him go against many of my personal beliefs. But persuading me to engage in some humiliating acts, i allowed that to happen even though i didn’t want it to, was just gross and made my skin crawl. Allowing the relationship we had to persist offered him the ability to exercise his devious superiority. He objectified me. He made me play these sick twisted games to get him off and brushed them off as exploring our kinks and sexuality. I’m working on healing from this. .... " www.twitlonger.comI don't want casters who treat people like this. I still have no idea what he did. Do you? We're not just supporting someone who's sharing her story. We're also condemning someone, because names were given. And if we're condemning someone, that type of information matters. This is a subjective story, and it's important for the victims that subjective stories are expressed. When it comes to discussing about the accused though, a more objective version is needed. If I say ''this person treated me like shit'', it can mean a very wide range of behaviors, from ignoring me to punching me in the face. In the absence of the other accounts I would perhaps need more clarification. As an additional account building on those I have more than a fair idea. I’m not sure how much additional detail would be required in an account without it crossing over into being overly lurid. It’s difficult enough to come forward and say you were naive and went along with behaviour you now see as abusive without delving into hardcore detail. Would I want her to go to a StarCraft related event with a meet and greet with Rapid afterwards if I wasn’t chaperoning? Absolutely not based on what information is currently there.
We all agree that this story, from the angle of having victims express themselves and share their experience, has great value. I would never say otherwise.
From the angle of accusing Rapid, this story cannot be used because of it's purely subjective nature. Because the other stories are credible, it's not a free pass to automatically give credibility to subjective accounts that corroborate no fact other than the dick pic. It's just a matter of basic fairness.
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Zurich15306 Posts
No need to call out mods or martyring yourself, we are here and decide on our own.
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EPT
