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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 27 2020 03:33 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:28 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 03:17 mcgormack wrote:Not sure how to feel about this one. The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public. In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, if there's no crime, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum. You may have missed that that's yet another non-consensual dick pic situation. This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship. It was consent based on emotional abuse, wtf how can you be so dense.
This relationship lasted for years. You can't claim to be sexually harassed by someone who sent you a dick pic if you've engaged in an intimate relationship afterwards.
The nature of the emotional abuse itself is very vague. And the thing is, while emotional abuse may be immoral, it hurts, but it is not a crime, and it won't get anyone fired out of any job (if it's unrelated to the workplace).
This is where I draw the line, it doesn't deserve to be public. Are we now gonna judge everyone with any amount of internet fame who has had a toxic relationship in the past?
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This thread is a very good example of why neutral, fair processes separated from passions are necessary to handle this kind of shit imo.
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On June 27 2020 03:39 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:33 Qikz wrote:On June 27 2020 03:28 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 03:17 mcgormack wrote:Not sure how to feel about this one. The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public. In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, if there's no crime, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum. You may have missed that that's yet another non-consensual dick pic situation. This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship. It was consent based on emotional abuse, wtf how can you be so dense. This relationship lasted for years. You can't claim to be sexually harassed by someone who sent you a dick pic if you've engaged in an intimate relationship afterwards.The nature of the emotional abuse itself is very vague. And the thing is, while emotional abuse may be immoral, it hurts, but it is not a crime, and it won't get anyone fired out of any job. This is where I draw the line, it doesn't deserve to be public. Are we now gonna judge everyone with any amount of internet fame who has had a toxic relationship in the past?
You absolutely can. You can be sexually harassed by anyone, regardless of your previous or present or future relationship. You can be harassed by your spouse, even.
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On June 27 2020 03:41 DeepElemBlues wrote:
This thread is a very good example of why neutral, fair processes are necessary to handle this kind of shit imo.
I agree, i am also very intrested what happened to accusations reported to team managers. Were they investigated and deemed not credible or dissmissed without action.
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On June 27 2020 03:38 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:28 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 03:17 mcgormack wrote:Not sure how to feel about this one. The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public. In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, if there's no crime, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum. You may have missed that that's yet another non-consensual dick pic situation. This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship. Having sex with someone, having a relationship with someone - does not make you immune from acting inappropriately. Most victims are preyed upon by people they know.
I agree.
Here, we've left the sexual assault discussion. We've even left the sexual harassment discussion.
We're entered the private abusive relationship discussion. Nothing illegal and nothing that would make anyone lose his job in any context. This doesn't deserve to be public and debated.
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On June 27 2020 03:45 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:41 DeepElemBlues wrote:
This thread is a very good example of why neutral, fair processes are necessary to handle this kind of shit imo. I agree, i am also very intrested what happened to accusations reported to team managers. Were they investigated and deemed not credible or dissmissed without action.
The only reported one, that I am aware of.... was laughed off in real time but the harassment did end.
I listened to this one on TOP's stream so I dont have all the details, I believe from his accent the victim was european.
Edit: there is another victim who came forward to the team manager. A poster below corrected that.
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On June 27 2020 03:39 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:33 Qikz wrote:On June 27 2020 03:28 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 03:17 mcgormack wrote:Not sure how to feel about this one. The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public. In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, if there's no crime, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum. You may have missed that that's yet another non-consensual dick pic situation. This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship. It was consent based on emotional abuse, wtf how can you be so dense. This relationship lasted for years. You can't claim to be sexually harassed by someone who sent you a dick pic if you've engaged in an intimate relationship afterwards. The nature of the emotional abuse itself is very vague. And the thing is, while emotional abuse may be immoral, it hurts, but it is not a crime, and it won't get anyone fired out of any job (if it's unrelated to the workplace). This is where I draw the line, it doesn't deserve to be public. Are we now gonna judge everyone with any amount of internet fame who has had a toxic relationship in the past?
It could be taken as harassment. That's up to the person who was sent the dick pic. If they end up friends or partners later, obviously they forgave the sending of that dick pic or weren't very bothered by it in the first place. But that isn't up to anyone but the person who receives the dick pic. Their reaction to it shouldn't be second-guessed except in very limited circumstances.
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On June 27 2020 03:48 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:45 Silvanel wrote:On June 27 2020 03:41 DeepElemBlues wrote:
This thread is a very good example of why neutral, fair processes are necessary to handle this kind of shit imo. I agree, i am also very intrested what happened to accusations reported to team managers. Were they investigated and deemed not credible or dissmissed without action. The only reported one, that I am aware of.... was laughed off in real time but the harassment did end. I listened to this one on TOP's stream so I dont have all the details, I believe from his accent the victim was european.
There was a girl who a pro player tried to rape at an afterparty. She told his coach but the coach made excuses for him. https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9miv
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On June 27 2020 03:47 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:38 AttackZerg wrote:On June 27 2020 03:28 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 03:17 mcgormack wrote:Not sure how to feel about this one. The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public. In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, if there's no crime, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum. You may have missed that that's yet another non-consensual dick pic situation. This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship. Having sex with someone, having a relationship with someone - does not make you immune from acting inappropriately. Most victims are preyed upon by people they know. I agree. Here, we've left the sexual assault discussion. We've even left the sexual harassment discussion. We're entered the private abusive relationship discussion. Nothing illegal and nothing that would make anyone lose his job. This doesn't deserve to be public and debated.
I disagree actually, event organizares can act on things happening in private relationship. I have banned a guy who beat his wife (in larping event, not starcraft event but i think same principles apply).
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On June 27 2020 03:47 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:38 AttackZerg wrote:On June 27 2020 03:28 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 03:17 mcgormack wrote:Not sure how to feel about this one. The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public. In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, if there's no crime, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum. You may have missed that that's yet another non-consensual dick pic situation. This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship. Having sex with someone, having a relationship with someone - does not make you immune from acting inappropriately. Most victims are preyed upon by people they know. I agree. Here, we've left the sexual assault discussion. We've even left the sexual harassment discussion. We're entered the private abusive relationship discussion. Nothing illegal and nothing that would make anyone lose his job in any context. This doesn't deserve to be public and debated.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
There are a million things I could do to my girlfriend that are horrible, illegal and wrong.
Fucking someone does not provide immunity.
And, lol at your other point. Any of my employees who I treated like this... I would be fired and open to suit from my company and the victim.
Just no.
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On June 27 2020 03:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:39 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:33 Qikz wrote:On June 27 2020 03:28 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 03:17 mcgormack wrote:Not sure how to feel about this one. The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public. In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, if there's no crime, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum. You may have missed that that's yet another non-consensual dick pic situation. This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship. It was consent based on emotional abuse, wtf how can you be so dense. This relationship lasted for years. You can't claim to be sexually harassed by someone who sent you a dick pic if you've engaged in an intimate relationship afterwards.The nature of the emotional abuse itself is very vague. And the thing is, while emotional abuse may be immoral, it hurts, but it is not a crime, and it won't get anyone fired out of any job. This is where I draw the line, it doesn't deserve to be public. Are we now gonna judge everyone with any amount of internet fame who has had a toxic relationship in the past? You absolutely can. You can be sexually harassed by anyone, regardless of your previous or present or future relationship. You can be harassed by your spouse, even.
If someone sends a dick pic and you go along with it and reply ''hot'', it's not sexual harassment.
''Unsollicited'' isn't the key word to determine if it's harassment or not. It's ''unwanted''.
In this case, she went along with it, and engaged in a relationship with the guy. There is no harassment, period.
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On June 27 2020 03:51 serendipitous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:48 AttackZerg wrote:On June 27 2020 03:45 Silvanel wrote:On June 27 2020 03:41 DeepElemBlues wrote:
This thread is a very good example of why neutral, fair processes are necessary to handle this kind of shit imo. I agree, i am also very intrested what happened to accusations reported to team managers. Were they investigated and deemed not credible or dissmissed without action. The only reported one, that I am aware of.... was laughed off in real time but the harassment did end. I listened to this one on TOP's stream so I dont have all the details, I believe from his accent the victim was european. There was a girl who a pro player tried to rape at an afterparty. She told his coach but the coach made excuses for him. https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9miv
Thnk you. I will amend my post.
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Looks like Henry might be out of the scene... Not related to SC2 but this is what happens when false accusations are made.
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On June 27 2020 03:52 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:47 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:38 AttackZerg wrote:On June 27 2020 03:28 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 03:17 mcgormack wrote:Not sure how to feel about this one. The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public. In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, if there's no crime, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum. You may have missed that that's yet another non-consensual dick pic situation. This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship. Having sex with someone, having a relationship with someone - does not make you immune from acting inappropriately. Most victims are preyed upon by people they know. I agree. Here, we've left the sexual assault discussion. We've even left the sexual harassment discussion. We're entered the private abusive relationship discussion. Nothing illegal and nothing that would make anyone lose his job in any context. This doesn't deserve to be public and debated. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. There are a million things I could do to my girlfriend that are horrible, illegal and wrong. Fucking someone does not provide immunity. And, lol at your other point. Any of my employees who I treated like this... I would be fired and open to suit from my company and the victim. Just no.
Yes, you can do a million things that are illegal to your wife. Here, nothing illegal. only things that are claimed to be immoral, and no specifics. Are we gonna publicly judge everyone who did ''wrong'' things to their spouse now? We've derailled completely from the initial sexual harassment discussion.
She was not a coworker and had nothing to do with his job. She was his intimate relationship. No one gets fired for having an emotionally abusive relationship at home.
On June 27 2020 03:51 Silvanel wrote:
I disagree actually, event organizares can act on things happening in private relationship. I have banned a guy who beat his wife (in larping event, not starcraft event but i think same principles apply).
Beating someone is way out of line and illegal.
Someone who convinces his girlfriend to do anal by saying ''if you love me, do it'', or whatever the fuck happened here, is an asshole, but does not deserve to lose his job. It doesn't even deserve to be public. (Although he deserves to lose it for all the other reasons amply discussed).
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On June 27 2020 03:19 Silvanel wrote:
In larping comunity which i am part of for even more years then sc, this kind of things are sorted by event organizers apointing "Persons of trust" for each event. Those people (usually a male and female) are some very trusted and respected members of cummunity,with good social skills. Event attendees are informed that should anything uncomfortable or unwanted happend they are free to talk to them, totally confidentiality is guaranteed. This really works and helps people feel safe at events.
I will elabarate that often the problem with reporting abuse is shame, fear of reprisal and social ostracism, especially if it involvs people that are "fillars of community". This way we lower the emotional threshold for reporting.
I like this. How are "Persons of trust" elected?
Your point about shame is spot on.
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For the people who are waiting for Rapid's response to these accusations, I wonder if they would be willing to wait for the response to that response as well? And the response to that response to the response? How far does the conversation have to go before you are willing to consider the viewpoints settled? 1 level deep?
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On June 27 2020 04:00 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:19 Silvanel wrote:
In larping comunity which i am part of for even more years then sc, this kind of things are sorted by event organizers apointing "Persons of trust" for each event. Those people (usually a male and female) are some very trusted and respected members of cummunity,with good social skills. Event attendees are informed that should anything uncomfortable or unwanted happend they are free to talk to them, totally confidentiality is guaranteed. This really works and helps people feel safe at events.
I will elabarate that often the problem with reporting abuse is shame, fear of reprisal and social ostracism, especially if it involvs people that are "fillars of community". This way we lower the emotional threshold for reporting. I like this. How are "Persons of trust" elected? Your point about shame is spot on.
They are not elected. Usually the event organizers appoints them. So not every event has this position, as different organizations has different standards. However if You truly care about safety in Your community You will make sure that You appointed a person well suited for the job. This person needs to be discret, trusted, have a good judgment and social skills.
The idea itself came from Nordic countries, it is in use for a few years now i have to say it is for the better.
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On June 27 2020 03:56 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:52 AttackZerg wrote:On June 27 2020 03:47 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:38 AttackZerg wrote:On June 27 2020 03:28 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 03:17 mcgormack wrote:Not sure how to feel about this one. The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public. In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, if there's no crime, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum. You may have missed that that's yet another non-consensual dick pic situation. This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship. Having sex with someone, having a relationship with someone - does not make you immune from acting inappropriately. Most victims are preyed upon by people they know. I agree. Here, we've left the sexual assault discussion. We've even left the sexual harassment discussion. We're entered the private abusive relationship discussion. Nothing illegal and nothing that would make anyone lose his job in any context. This doesn't deserve to be public and debated. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. There are a million things I could do to my girlfriend that are horrible, illegal and wrong. Fucking someone does not provide immunity. And, lol at your other point. Any of my employees who I treated like this... I would be fired and open to suit from my company and the victim. Just no. Yes, you can do a million things that are illegal to your wife. Here, nothing illegal. only things that are claimed to be immoral, and no specifics. Are we gonna publicly judge everyone who did ''wrong'' things to their spouse now? We've derailled completely from the initial sexual harassment discussion. She was not a coworker and had nothing to do with his job. She was his intimate relationship. No one gets fired for having an emotionally abusive relationship at home.
You have derailed completely by claiming that things "Cannot be wrong because X".
You have argued that people shouldn't be able to be open with their own stories.
I did not bring up workplace laws. You did.
You have decided that you think these matters should be kept private and that is your contention.
I am disagreeing.
You decided this is okay behavior or at least not worth considering and you are arguing for the right to keep toxic things quiet.
I disagree.
I didn't climb into anyones bedroom window to observe these events, I am a bystander who spent hours listening to the worst caster ever only to find out that he was even worse off the mic.
And a fuck-ton of people knew and he was still a 'celebrity' empowered by us, the fan-base, the people sponsors are paying to have exclusive access to. Yeah it is our business if the people we give platforms are mistreating that trust.
Maybe Rapid could have just been a good person and then everything would be quiet because there wouldn't be years and years of the same behavior to report on.
Maybe, if people who knew what he was years ago said something, we could have prevented his ability to use the power he gained from us to hurt people.
Maybe, if the people who DID say something years ago were believed, then we could have had this horrible conversation back then and against, stopped this years ago.
Instead we let sleeping dogs lie until it burst.
We need sunlight not more closed door conversations. Those haven't worked.
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On June 27 2020 03:53 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 03:39 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:33 Qikz wrote:On June 27 2020 03:28 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 03:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 03:17 mcgormack wrote:Not sure how to feel about this one. The other events were stuff that would get a person fired from a job, and arguably deserved to be public. In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public. Just because he's a D-list esports celebrity, if there's no crime, it doesn't justify Rapid's private life getting revealed in details and debated on a public forum. You may have missed that that's yet another non-consensual dick pic situation. This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship. It was consent based on emotional abuse, wtf how can you be so dense. This relationship lasted for years. You can't claim to be sexually harassed by someone who sent you a dick pic if you've engaged in an intimate relationship afterwards.The nature of the emotional abuse itself is very vague. And the thing is, while emotional abuse may be immoral, it hurts, but it is not a crime, and it won't get anyone fired out of any job. This is where I draw the line, it doesn't deserve to be public. Are we now gonna judge everyone with any amount of internet fame who has had a toxic relationship in the past? You absolutely can. You can be sexually harassed by anyone, regardless of your previous or present or future relationship. You can be harassed by your spouse, even. If someone sends a dick pic and you go along with it and reply ''hot'', it's not sexual harassment. ''Unsollicited'' isn't the key word to determine if it's harassment or not. It's ''unwanted''. In this case, she went along with it, and engaged in a relationship with the guy. There is no harassment, period.
That simply isn't what happened though. The word "hot" appears exactly zero times in her story. The entire sentence reads "He sent me an unsolicited dick pic soon after (this was within a week of talking and dming)." And yes, when it comes to consent, something being unsolicited is good enough to establish a lack of consent. I feel like you're trying to make a semantics argument that, while "unwanted" is bad, "unsolicited" is neutral, and neutral is fine. That's false. Neutral is not necessarily fine. That's why you always, always, always ask for consent. It's not the case that dick pics are assumed to be consensual unless the recipient vocally turns them down. That thinking is backwards. Instead, it is the case that dick pics are assumed to be non-consensual unless the recipient vocally asks for one or gives you permission to send one after you ask. Consent is never assumed.
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Unless I am mistaken unsolicited dick pics are a crime in some jurisdictions.
I know a guy in London was charged for airdropping a dick pic to someone on a subway car.
Edit - did some research it is illegal in a lot of places.
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EPT
