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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 27 2020 00:52 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 00:49 Jealous wrote:On June 27 2020 00:37 vyzion wrote:On June 27 2020 00:24 Maruisgoat1994 wrote:On June 26 2020 23:22 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2020 23:15 Maruisgoat1994 wrote:
What happened to AngryJoe is the PERFECT example of why "Believe all women" is fucking stupid and toxic.
He had to invest in lawyers and have is reputation affected. Then the girl simply says, "oh, maybe he did nothing wrong and he had no bad intention" then she deletes her accusations.
Its sad because not only it affects Joe heavily, but because of bitches like her, real victims lose a lot of credibility. Yes that sounds awful, so does some one being raped and no one believing her. And the second happens WAY more than the first. I get your a troll who just made this post to be banned, but it is still worth pointing out because we there is still people dumb enough to think you have a point. and whats your point actually? We should all believe them, who cares if 10% of people accused have their life ruined for ZERO reason? If thats your point, you are clearly the idiot and troll here. You know there is a difference between believing blindly all women, and simply listening to them and waiting to have both sides of the story and/or evidence, right? Not believing all women just because they posted a touching story doesnt mean we accuse them of being liars. It means we are waiting for both sides/evidence. Its amazing how this simple, basic concept seems to be too complicated for you. Wonder who is the troll. I believe his point is simply that historically and systemically, things are unfair for victims/women and they're going to lose so they need to be prioritized, even at the cost of the fewer number of wrongly accused. This seems to be the general sentiment I'm getting from others with the same thought process. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Just to clarify further, is this taking the stance that it is better to punish an innocent person than to leave a guilty person unpunished? No, it's about recognizing that using pithy rule statements founded on a particular notion of the status quo becomes extremely problematic when the status quo turns out to be something else entirely. That's a foundational notion of the #metoo movement among many others that center on reconsidering the assumptions made regarding common life disputes and conflicts.
Could you rephrase that in a simpler way please? I am having trouble understanding.
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On June 27 2020 01:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 01:28 vyzion wrote:On June 27 2020 01:06 Cele wrote:
Would make sense to do it that way, if the problem was so simple. Yeah, it's very complicated for so many reasons. The current systems we have in place are inadequate to "fairly" address these things. At some level, for any progress to be made, sacrifices must be made. At least until we have better systems in place. If it's any consolation to the folks so worried about the accused, often even when charged with crimes and they either plead or are found guilty they still enjoy remarkably inappropriate sentences. Just some random examples from last month in the US: Show nested quote +Shane Piche admitted to raping a 14-year-old girl who rode the school bus he drove. Michael Wysolovski admitted to keeping a teenage girl in sexual captivity for more than a year. Last Thursday, two separate judges in two separate states ruled neither would be going to prison. I don't agree with everything said by quoted attorneys in the article but I think this is worth considering (Jock this is also in reference to what I mean by what it says to hang out in the fandom filled with the people in her mentions and a fan of a guy that's doing nothing about it but making it worse): Show nested quote +"The next survivor will see what she went through, facing the perpetrator, having to testify in the same room, having to look at that guy, point out that guy, share the details of what happened in front of a jury of strangers — go through all of that and then get this type of an outcome," Dolce said. "The next survivor sees that and then says, 'Why would I do that?'" www.usatoday.com
Also, all the cases where the religious were given so much leniency. Most popular would be the catholic church.
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On June 27 2020 01:48 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 00:52 farvacola wrote:On June 27 2020 00:49 Jealous wrote:On June 27 2020 00:37 vyzion wrote:On June 27 2020 00:24 Maruisgoat1994 wrote:On June 26 2020 23:22 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2020 23:15 Maruisgoat1994 wrote:
What happened to AngryJoe is the PERFECT example of why "Believe all women" is fucking stupid and toxic.
He had to invest in lawyers and have is reputation affected. Then the girl simply says, "oh, maybe he did nothing wrong and he had no bad intention" then she deletes her accusations.
Its sad because not only it affects Joe heavily, but because of bitches like her, real victims lose a lot of credibility. Yes that sounds awful, so does some one being raped and no one believing her. And the second happens WAY more than the first. I get your a troll who just made this post to be banned, but it is still worth pointing out because we there is still people dumb enough to think you have a point. and whats your point actually? We should all believe them, who cares if 10% of people accused have their life ruined for ZERO reason? If thats your point, you are clearly the idiot and troll here. You know there is a difference between believing blindly all women, and simply listening to them and waiting to have both sides of the story and/or evidence, right? Not believing all women just because they posted a touching story doesnt mean we accuse them of being liars. It means we are waiting for both sides/evidence. Its amazing how this simple, basic concept seems to be too complicated for you. Wonder who is the troll. I believe his point is simply that historically and systemically, things are unfair for victims/women and they're going to lose so they need to be prioritized, even at the cost of the fewer number of wrongly accused. This seems to be the general sentiment I'm getting from others with the same thought process. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Just to clarify further, is this taking the stance that it is better to punish an innocent person than to leave a guilty person unpunished? No, it's about recognizing that using pithy rule statements founded on a particular notion of the status quo becomes extremely problematic when the status quo turns out to be something else entirely. That's a foundational notion of the #metoo movement among many others that center on reconsidering the assumptions made regarding common life disputes and conflicts. Could you rephrase that in a simpler way please? I am having trouble understanding.
Innocent until proven guilty is not applicable in this situation.
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On June 27 2020 01:51 vyzion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 01:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 27 2020 01:28 vyzion wrote:On June 27 2020 01:06 Cele wrote:
Would make sense to do it that way, if the problem was so simple. Yeah, it's very complicated for so many reasons. The current systems we have in place are inadequate to "fairly" address these things. At some level, for any progress to be made, sacrifices must be made. At least until we have better systems in place. If it's any consolation to the folks so worried about the accused, often even when charged with crimes and they either plead or are found guilty they still enjoy remarkably inappropriate sentences. Just some random examples from last month in the US: Shane Piche admitted to raping a 14-year-old girl who rode the school bus he drove. Michael Wysolovski admitted to keeping a teenage girl in sexual captivity for more than a year. Last Thursday, two separate judges in two separate states ruled neither would be going to prison. I don't agree with everything said by quoted attorneys in the article but I think this is worth considering (Jock this is also in reference to what I mean by what it says to hang out in the fandom filled with the people in her mentions and a fan of a guy that's doing nothing about it but making it worse): "The next survivor will see what she went through, facing the perpetrator, having to testify in the same room, having to look at that guy, point out that guy, share the details of what happened in front of a jury of strangers — go through all of that and then get this type of an outcome," Dolce said. "The next survivor sees that and then says, 'Why would I do that?'" www.usatoday.com Also, all the cases where the religious were given so much leniency. Most popular would be the catholic church.
So the accused will be okay if not a single person here ever mentioned anything in their defense (or spoke to the interest of "fairness" for them) again. The system and their supporters and abusers who need redemption stories will make sure of it. However, the women harmed by the various acts (regardless of how the perpetrators felt about it) are not okay AT ALL, and will not ever be okay if people continue to do that stuff for the accused in places like this.
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On June 27 2020 01:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 01:28 vyzion wrote:On June 27 2020 01:06 Cele wrote:
Would make sense to do it that way, if the problem was so simple. Yeah, it's very complicated for so many reasons. The current systems we have in place are inadequate to "fairly" address these things. At some level, for any progress to be made, sacrifices must be made. At least until we have better systems in place. If it's any consolation to the folks so worried about the accused, often even when charged with crimes and they either plead or are found guilty they still enjoy remarkably inappropriate sentences. Just some random examples from last month in the US: Show nested quote +Shane Piche admitted to raping a 14-year-old girl who rode the school bus he drove. Michael Wysolovski admitted to keeping a teenage girl in sexual captivity for more than a year. Last Thursday, two separate judges in two separate states ruled neither would be going to prison. I don't agree with everything said by quoted attorneys in the article but I think this is worth considering (Jock this is also in reference to what I mean by what it says to hang out in the fandom filled with the people in her mentions and a fan of a guy that's doing nothing about it but making it worse): Show nested quote +"The next survivor will see what she went through, facing the perpetrator, having to testify in the same room, having to look at that guy, point out that guy, share the details of what happened in front of a jury of strangers — go through all of that and then get this type of an outcome," Dolce said. "The next survivor sees that and then says, 'Why would I do that?'" www.usatoday.com
I understand where you're coming from but I think you underestimate the damage just an accusation can do. Someone in my family was accused (later taken to court and found innocent) of rape when he was 16. The amount of trauma this caused my family included but was not limited to my mother not being able to work at her job due to stress from the case, the accused being forced to effectively live a year of his school life in seclusion which significantly affected his educational performance, both my mum and the at the time accused having to take counselling sessions as a result of psychological trauma incurred from the accusation and subsequent in investigation.
There were other negative things that occurred but these are just a few examples. I'm not saying that the justice system in most countries isn't problematic when it comes to the issue of rape and sexual assault, however, when we discuss these things I do think that we often undervalue the effect that an accusation alone can have on the life of an individual even if they are later exonerated.
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What i really don't understand are the abusers.
Just...why. Why can you not just be a good person. How do people live with themselves after sexually abusing people? And why would you risk your good conscience and hurt another person (also risk your lifelyhood, but that, to me, is actually secondary) for some short-term sexual gratification?
It would be such an easy thing to not do.
And i really cannot understand someone who would do it. I cannot even imagine doing anything even remotely sexual with another person without making absolutely, 100%, totally sure that they are also into it. It would never be worth the cost to my conscience.
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Same thing is currently happening on the DOTA community and my take on all of this as follows with complete respect to everyone:
* Sorry for the victims and hopefully they can recover from this and never they or anyone else experience such tragedy.
* The way this being handled by coming to Twitter and posting stories is not something I'm fan of. It is super easy to frame anyone with twitter post because you do not have to present anything as proof and could be used to damage some people's reputations to unrecoverable degree. Again, not defending the people who did those horrible things but it does open window for "fake victims" to create "fake stories" and damage reputation of others by riding the current wave since no proof is required.
* sexual harassment is a symptom to deeper issue. I'm speaking more about stories I heard from DOTA communities were mostly current victims that are posting are either cosplayers or armature casters, players that wanted to get more closer to community figures (players and casters) and had to use their sexuality appeals to get closer to those inner circles of community figures.
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On June 27 2020 02:04 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 01:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 27 2020 01:28 vyzion wrote:On June 27 2020 01:06 Cele wrote:
Would make sense to do it that way, if the problem was so simple. Yeah, it's very complicated for so many reasons. The current systems we have in place are inadequate to "fairly" address these things. At some level, for any progress to be made, sacrifices must be made. At least until we have better systems in place. If it's any consolation to the folks so worried about the accused, often even when charged with crimes and they either plead or are found guilty they still enjoy remarkably inappropriate sentences. Just some random examples from last month in the US: Shane Piche admitted to raping a 14-year-old girl who rode the school bus he drove. Michael Wysolovski admitted to keeping a teenage girl in sexual captivity for more than a year. Last Thursday, two separate judges in two separate states ruled neither would be going to prison. I don't agree with everything said by quoted attorneys in the article but I think this is worth considering (Jock this is also in reference to what I mean by what it says to hang out in the fandom filled with the people in her mentions and a fan of a guy that's doing nothing about it but making it worse): "The next survivor will see what she went through, facing the perpetrator, having to testify in the same room, having to look at that guy, point out that guy, share the details of what happened in front of a jury of strangers — go through all of that and then get this type of an outcome," Dolce said. "The next survivor sees that and then says, 'Why would I do that?'" www.usatoday.com I understand where you're coming from but I think you underestimate the damage just an accusation can do. Someone in my family was accused (later taken to court and found innocent) of rape when he was 16. The amount of trauma this caused my family included but was not limited to my mother not being able to work at her job due to stress from the case, the accused being forced to effectively live a year of his school life in seclusion which significantly affected his educational performance, both my mum and the at the time accused having to take counselling sessions as a result of psychological trauma incurred from the accusation and subsequent in investigation. There were other negative things that occurred but these are just a few examples. I'm not saying that the justice system in most countries isn't problematic when it comes to the issue of rape and sexual assault, however, when we discuss these things I do think that we often undervalue the effect that an accusation alone can have on the life of an individual even if they are later exonerated.
I really wish people understood how even when you package it up like this, I want to vomit reading it.
I'm Black in the US where false accusations got innocent people that look like me beaten to death in the public square without consequences in living memory. Where consensual adult relationships with the wrong color person in the wrong town can still get me get killed for rape and the murders acquitted.
So no I don't underestimate the damage. No I don't give a shit about how it made your family feel in this context.
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On June 27 2020 02:12 Wrath wrote:
* The way this being handled by coming to Twitter and posting stories is not something I'm fan of. It is super easy to frame anyone with twitter post because you do not have to present anything as proof and could be used to damage some people's reputations to unrecoverable degree. Again, not defending the people who did those horrible things but it does open window for "fake victims" to create "fake stories" and damage reputation of others by riding the current wave since no proof is required.
What do you suggest the victims do instead of taking it to twitter?
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Since everyone is talking about the presumption of innocence (and presumably waiting to assign guilt until someone is proven beyond reasonable doubt) I figured I'd throw my two cents in.
Those two legal standards are used because the bar to use the threat of state violence strip someone of their liberty IS and SHOULD BE. As an aside I'd actually like it to be higher (criminalize less things, get rid of plea bargains and bail so prosecutors have to actually make decisions about what cases they'd like to bring to trial, increase funding for public defenders and so on.)
That being said the bar to stop hiring people for esports events does not need to be nearly that high. Again the first standard is for situations where the consequence is people with guns will come and put you in prison, and if you fail to comply they can legally inflict violence on you. It's just not comparable to esports organizations not wanting to hire you because your reputation is tanked.
To take it out of the realm of criminal allegations here's a scenario:
Imagine if a bunch of people tell you caster XYZ sucks to work with. They're not punctual, they complain constantly, showed up hungover, were rude to other staff, caused broadcast delays and so on. If you found the people telling you this credible would you hire them anyway because innocent until proven guilty? Or would you decide to hire someone that didn't suck to work with?
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On June 27 2020 02:18 ploguidice wrote:
Since everyone is talking about the presumption of innocence (and presumably waiting to assign guilt until someone is proven beyond reasonable doubt) I figured I'd throw my two cents in.
Those two legal standards are used because the bar to use the threat of state violence strip someone of their liberty IS and SHOULD BE. As an aside I'd actually like it to be higher (criminalize less things, get rid of plea bargains and bail so prosecutors have to actually make decisions about what cases they'd like to bring to trial, increase funding for public defenders and so on.)
That being said the bar to stop hiring people for esports events does not need to be nearly that high. Again the first standard is for situations where the consequence is people with guns will come and put you in prison, and if you fail to comply they can legally inflict violence on you. It's just not comparable to esports organizations not wanting to hire you because your reputation is tanked.
To take it out of the realm of criminal allegations here's a scenario:
Imagine if a bunch of people tell you caster XYZ sucks to work with. They're not punctual, they complain constantly, showed up hungover, were rude to other staff, caused broadcast delays and so on. If you found the people telling you this credible would you hire them anyway because innocent until proven guilty? Or would you decide to hire someone that didn't suck to work with?
Great post, I think this is the proper way to frame it.
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On June 27 2020 02:12 Wrath wrote:
* sexual harassment is a symptom to deeper issue. I'm speaking more about stories I heard from DOTA communities were mostly current victims that are posting are either cosplayers or armature casters, players that wanted to get more closer to community figures (players and casters) and had to use their sexuality appeals to get closer to those inner circles of community figures.
So when you re Gosplaying, you should expect do be harassed?
THIS IS VICTIMEBLAMING and part of the problem.
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On June 27 2020 02:12 Wrath wrote:
Same thing is currently happening on the DOTA community and my take on all of this as follows with complete respect to everyone:
* Sorry for the victims and hopefully they can recover from this and never they or anyone else experience such tragedy.
* The way this being handled by coming to Twitter and posting stories is not something I'm fan of. It is super easy to frame anyone with twitter post because you do not have to present anything as proof and could be used to damage some people's reputations to unrecoverable degree. Again, not defending the people who did those horrible things but it does open window for "fake victims" to create "fake stories" and damage reputation of others by riding the current wave since no proof is required.
* sexual harassment is a symptom to deeper issue. I'm speaking more about stories I heard from DOTA communities were mostly current victims that are posting are either cosplayers or armature casters, players that wanted to get more closer to community figures (players and casters) and had to use their sexuality appeals to get closer to those inner circles of community figures.
You are not the only one saying this, and I'd like to agree with you there. BUT, we have ample evidence, both statistical and anecdotal, of criminal justice systems, or even employers or other less formal networks, not dealing with these issues adequately. Some people contacted authorities, some employers and co-workers, but nothing has happened until the issue has been brought public. The system cannot deal with these type of cases effectively, for now at least.
I'm linking an article from today, where someone discusses their experience and the problems of brining it up with others. I recommend you have a read of it and see how you think about it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/26/touched-without-my-consent-speaking-out-social-media-harassment-assault
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On June 27 2020 02:06 Simberto wrote:
What i really don't understand are the abusers.
Just...why. Why can you not just be a good person. How do people live with themselves after sexually abusing people? And why would you risk your good conscience and hurt another person (also risk your lifelyhood, but that, to me, is actually secondary) for some short-term sexual gratification?
It would be such an easy thing to not do.
And i really cannot understand someone who would do it. I cannot even imagine doing anything even remotely sexual with another person without making absolutely, 100%, totally sure that they are also into it. It would never be worth the cost to my conscience.
Too many only identify with the accused and you don't. Thank you.
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On June 27 2020 02:06 Simberto wrote:
What i really don't understand are the abusers.
Just...why. Why can you not just be a good person. How do people live with themselves after sexually abusing people? And why would you risk your good conscience and hurt another person (also risk your lifelyhood, but that, to me, is actually secondary) for some short-term sexual gratification?
It would be such an easy thing to not do.
And i really cannot understand someone who would do it. I cannot even imagine doing anything even remotely sexual with another person without making absolutely, 100%, totally sure that they are also into it. It would never be worth the cost to my conscience.
Ego and thirst. They want to use their position of power to do things to satisfy their weird kinks. It's a complete disregard for their victims' feelings and complete selfishness. Most of the time these people don't think they'll get caught so I don't think they even considered losing their livelihood.
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On June 27 2020 01:23 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 23:22 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2020 23:15 Maruisgoat1994 wrote:
What happened to AngryJoe is the PERFECT example of why "Believe all women" is fucking stupid and toxic.
He had to invest in lawyers and have is reputation affected. Then the girl simply says, "oh, maybe he did nothing wrong and he had no bad intention" then she deletes her accusations.
Its sad because not only it affects Joe heavily, but because of bitches like her, real victims lose a lot of credibility. Yes that sounds awful, so does some one being raped and no one believing her. And the second happens WAY more than the first. I get your a troll who just made this post to be banned, but it is still worth pointing out because we there is still people dumb enough to think you have a point. The reason the second happens way more than the first is because we have what's called " Due Process. " Without it, any allegation is true, so if you're going to make these allegations you need to provide the proof and evidence, and prove it without a shadow of a doubt to be true, otherwise don't you think we'd have a lot of innocent people in jail?
Maybe you missed my response to your first post, but this isn't an established, well-defined phrase in these e-sports harassment/abuse contexts. (And you're also not the first person to slippery slope this conversation to sending people to jail or talking about "due process" when we're merely referring to accountability within the community. Throughout this thread, we've repeatedly talked about how this isn't a criminal trial.) If you don't mind:
On June 26 2020 22:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 22:46 ProTech wrote:
As a person who has been subject to false allegations, I find it not OK to make headline news of this unless there's proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that the allegations are true. Could you please elaborate on what you mean by that? I feel like that's a phrase that's not well-defined, especially when it comes to public accusations like these. I worry that, due to the subjectivity of that sort of threshold, there could be a lot of goalpost-moving. Does one account constitute enough proof? Two accounts? Three? What if there is some written evidence, but maybe it could still be brushed off as a lame joke or fake text, if one truly wanted to be contrarian and in denial that the alleged abuser could have actually abused people? I feel like it's very easy to play the game of "never quite having enough proof", if we wanted to try hard enough to rally behind the accused and not the victim. The threshold for being convinced is different for everyone, so I certainly don't mind airing everything in public and then having the public assess the evidence so far; besides, the willingness to even hear a first story makes it more likely for other stories to be made public too, and we should prefer that over scaring victims into being uncomfortable with coming forward. Show nested quote +While I do understand that might be harsh for people coming forward, we also should look at this from the perspective of the accused, and the fact that this is the internet. Rapids reputation is basically shot, regardless of whether these accusations are true, or false. I think Rapid's reputation is very likely to be shot because there are multiple corroborative stories against him, which is the fault of Rapid and not the victims. We could certainly posit a way for Rapid's reputation to be restored - if he demonstrates that all of the people speaking out against him are in some sort of conspiracy to assassinate his character - but I'd imagine it's unlikely that everyone else is faking it just to destroy him.
In other news, another corroborative story:
Thank you for keeping us up to date on these!
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On June 27 2020 02:22 Oukka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 02:12 Wrath wrote:
Same thing is currently happening on the DOTA community and my take on all of this as follows with complete respect to everyone:
* Sorry for the victims and hopefully they can recover from this and never they or anyone else experience such tragedy.
* The way this being handled by coming to Twitter and posting stories is not something I'm fan of. It is super easy to frame anyone with twitter post because you do not have to present anything as proof and could be used to damage some people's reputations to unrecoverable degree. Again, not defending the people who did those horrible things but it does open window for "fake victims" to create "fake stories" and damage reputation of others by riding the current wave since no proof is required.
* sexual harassment is a symptom to deeper issue. I'm speaking more about stories I heard from DOTA communities were mostly current victims that are posting are either cosplayers or armature casters, players that wanted to get more closer to community figures (players and casters) and had to use their sexuality appeals to get closer to those inner circles of community figures. You are not the only one saying this, and I'd like to agree with you there. BUT, we have ample evidence, both statistical and anecdotal, of criminal justice systems, or even employers or other less formal networks, not dealing with these issues adequately. Some people contacted authorities, some employers and co-workers, but nothing has happened until the issue has been brought public. The system cannot deal with these type of cases effectively, for now at least. I'm linking an article from today, where someone discusses their experience and the problems of brining it up with others. I recommend you have a read of it and see how you think about it. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/26/touched-without-my-consent-speaking-out-social-media-harassment-assault
Pretty sad to read about this 
And the exact reason, why we should do better here
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On June 27 2020 02:20 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 01:23 ProTech wrote:On June 26 2020 23:22 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2020 23:15 Maruisgoat1994 wrote:
What happened to AngryJoe is the PERFECT example of why "Believe all women" is fucking stupid and toxic.
He had to invest in lawyers and have is reputation affected. Then the girl simply says, "oh, maybe he did nothing wrong and he had no bad intention" then she deletes her accusations.
Its sad because not only it affects Joe heavily, but because of bitches like her, real victims lose a lot of credibility. Yes that sounds awful, so does some one being raped and no one believing her. And the second happens WAY more than the first. I get your a troll who just made this post to be banned, but it is still worth pointing out because we there is still people dumb enough to think you have a point. The reason the second happens way more than the first is because we have what's called " Due Process. " Without it, any allegation is true, so if you're going to make these allegations you need to provide the proof and evidence, and prove it without a shadow of a doubt to be true, otherwise don't you think we'd have a lot of innocent people in jail? Yes and that is why the burden off proof is higher for suspending someones freedom then it is for people to.chose not to support a public figure. In the particular situation though with 4 corroborated stories including screen shots and no even denial, I'd say it is a fair response. If you dont think its fair let us know where you would set the bar. I suspect it is unreasonably high which is why this behavior is so common, there is no consequences and when some one speaks out they get way more.voices of hate rather than support.
I don't disagree with you in its entirety, however the bar IMO needs to be set high especially in cases like this, where it could potentially be a ruse to get more popular.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the defendant or accusers in anyway, I just believe in the system of " Due Process " because without it, any allegation could be true if enough people get together and just decide that it's true.
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