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On December 12 2019 05:39 Rainbow62 wrote:
I think the game is fucked up since that stupid hydra patch that now resists siege lines.
Hydra/lurker should always be countered by siege tanks but now it's fucking impossible because the hydra is too tanky.
Just remove 5 hp out of it would fix a lot of balance issues in the midgame.
I don't know why they just buffed the lurker, I mean zerg ground units were not the problem AA was. So explain to me how buffing the lurker changes anything to AA.
I believe this could be 100% fixed by maps.
I agree that autopilot 5+ queens is not good design and wish Blizzard looked more actively for solutions. There is just not enough of a risk by making them, you are doing at least ok no matter what.
I can't say it is a balance issue either, especially as earlygame air harass from T and P is very strong as well at this point.
Maybe they missed the boat on making a scourge like airborne banelings on tier 2 or something? Or the mentioned Hydra changes, which would have to be tweaked a lot to work.
Back in the day, there were some no macro mechanic community mods around. When did they die off?
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First of all: as long as Blizzard wants Z to not have any early game harass that is NOT all in like T and P have (especially air), Z is forced to play defensive early game, so obviously Z right now needs the queen to defend (and a lot of them in case of stuff like BCs that might come out too early right now).
T1 Hydras would only help if they lose their light TAG, otherwise helions plus air or oracles still kill them and since they cost gas and you probably couldn't use them for counter attacks without range and speed... Well Z would end up way behind to normal T and P harass.
Basically either let queen be or massively nerf T and P early game air harass (which would mean another upgrade so T and P mid and late game would be as good as now) or give Z a unit to do early game counter harass while nerfing queens so Z can do non committal damage to T and P while taking more damage with worse queen.
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So is Zerg too strong or not? Or is it just that they happen to have the best player - Serral, which skews the results?
At low level (Diamond) I find beating Zerg very easy. At what level can you actually notice that Zerg is too strong?
In my opinion there is no Terran or Protoss player that is as skilled as Serral, so maybe Serral should be excluded when looking at pro level balance.
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What about this
Macro Queen: 100 minerals, can transfuse, larvae, tumors, burrow without upgrade (self defense vs super fast oracle or sth). Does NOT have any fighting abilities (or maybe 5 melee dmg like a drone ^-^)
Upgrade to Micro Queen: 100 minerals, Macro can be morphed to Micro Queen (like a lurker/ ravager) Loses all Macro mechanics, becomes like a Queen now but slightly buffed in ground range and maybe air attack speed
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First off, I've played 400 games on the new patch; M1. This is the stupidity of blizzard to nerf, THEN BUFF! WHY!! You have every Zerg in the world winning tournaments, but you simply don't nerf their units. When Terrans were winning you cut the crap out of their units, but, instead you feel with every nerf deserves a buff. Why? WHY? WHY?
Here is a perfect example:
New Upgrade found on the Lurker Den: Seismic Spines
Increases the Lurker’s range from 8 to 10.
Requirement: Hive.
Research cost: 150/150.
Research duration: 57 seconds.
I have a 200/200 ground mech army (3/3) losing to a 2-1 hydra lurker/viper/army. All my hellbats are dead. Landed Vikings are instantly gone without any DPS - the range is ridiculous. I've done this at least 10x 1v1. Zerg not only has BL/Infestor now its has become a stomping ground for all that is Terran. Thors are instantly abducted. An obvious transition is BL the second all the Thors are gone and there is nothing but tanks against the 12312312430 Range of lurkers. Thanks BLIZZARD!!!
PS: Yes they outrange Turrets even with the upgrade. I'm saying this is becoming a two race game if you look at the streamers left. It is sad. You have a 17 year old, Reynor, which is very talented but can you honestly tell me in all of SC history we've had a 17 yr old defeating all the top Terran and Protoss and he is just a savant? I won't even mention Serral...you get my point.
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On December 12 2019 18:16 Harris1st wrote:
What about this
Macro Queen: 100 minerals, can transfuse, larvae, tumors, burrow without upgrade (self defense vs super fast oracle or sth). Does NOT have any fighting abilities (or maybe 5 melee dmg like a drone ^-^)
Upgrade to Micro Queen: 100 minerals, Macro can be morphed to Micro Queen (like a lurker/ ravager) Loses all Macro mechanics, becomes like a Queen now but slightly buffed in ground range and maybe air attack speed
This but the Micro Queen gets transfuse instead of the Macro queen.
The evolution should also take some time, so Zerg isn t just sitting on only Macro queens and is fine morphing them, when Oracles allready hit.
I gues Micro Queen also needs to be way faster of creep then, so it is not just a dead unit, when you attack or allways have to use nydus to get it to the other side.
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On December 12 2019 18:07 MockHamill wrote:
So is Zerg too strong or not? Or is it just that they happen to have the best player - Serral, which skews the results?
At low level (Diamond) I find beating Zerg very easy. At what level can you actually notice that Zerg is too strong?
In my opinion there is no Terran or Protoss player that is as skilled as Serral, so maybe Serral should be excluded when looking at pro level balance.
Uh SoO (GSL Champ), Reynor (a 17 Yr old kid), and Serral are all the top winners/runner up in all major tournaments in the last 2 years. Next year we can tag on the 8yr old kid who can throw a Yo-Yo at the same time as playing StarCraft. What do you want to show that something is wrong. Even the TL highlights are saying things like "similar results as expected..." Get a clue!
PS: You can "notice" if you read my thread two comments above why things need to be adjusted (and how).
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Northern Ireland26400 Posts
On December 12 2019 19:17 pinky29 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2019 18:07 MockHamill wrote:
So is Zerg too strong or not? Or is it just that they happen to have the best player - Serral, which skews the results?
At low level (Diamond) I find beating Zerg very easy. At what level can you actually notice that Zerg is too strong?
In my opinion there is no Terran or Protoss player that is as skilled as Serral, so maybe Serral should be excluded when looking at pro level balance. Uh SoO (GSL Champ), Reynor (a 17 Yr old kid), and Serral are all the top winners/runner up in all major tournaments in the last 2 years. Next year we can tag on the 8yr old kid who can throw a Yo-Yo at the same time as playing StarCraft. What do you want to show that something is wrong. Even the TL highlights are saying things like "similar results as expected..." Get a clue! PS: You can "notice" if you read my thread two comments above why things need to be adjusted (and how).
soO hasn’t won a GSL to be pedantic.
Historically going back to Brood War there have been plenty of young players performing well, Flash being a notable example.
Reynor and Serral have been on people’s radars going back at least 5 years as huge talents, are you seriously arguing that the proof that Zerg is broken is that Reynor is a teenager?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 12 2019 18:42 pinky29 wrote:
First off, I've played 400 games on the new patch; M1. This is the stupidity of blizzard to nerf, THEN BUFF! WHY!! You have every Zerg in the world winning tournaments, but you simply don't nerf their units. When Terrans were winning you cut the crap out of their units, but, instead you feel with every nerf deserves a buff. Why? WHY? WHY?
Here is a perfect example:
New Upgrade found on the Lurker Den: Seismic Spines
Increases the Lurker’s range from 8 to 10.
Requirement: Hive.
Research cost: 150/150.
Research duration: 57 seconds.
I have a 200/200 ground mech army (3/3) losing to a 2-1 hydra lurker/viper/army. All my hellbats are dead. Landed Vikings are instantly gone without any DPS - the range is ridiculous. I've done this at least 10x 1v1. Zerg not only has BL/Infestor now its has become a stomping ground for all that is Terran. Thors are instantly abducted. An obvious transition is BL the second all the Thors are gone and there is nothing but tanks against the 12312312430 Range of lurkers. Thanks BLIZZARD!!!
PS: Yes they outrange Turrets even with the upgrade. I'm saying this is becoming a two race game if you look at the streamers left. It is sad. You have a 17 year old, Reynor, which is very talented but can you honestly tell me in all of SC history we've had a 17 yr old defeating all the top Terran and Protoss and he is just a savant? I won't even mention Serral...you get my point.
Life? Hello? He won his first GSL at the age of 15? IIRC
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On December 12 2019 18:47 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2019 18:16 Harris1st wrote:
What about this
Macro Queen: 100 minerals, can transfuse, larvae, tumors, burrow without upgrade (self defense vs super fast oracle or sth). Does NOT have any fighting abilities (or maybe 5 melee dmg like a drone ^-^)
Upgrade to Micro Queen: 100 minerals, Macro can be morphed to Micro Queen (like a lurker/ ravager) Loses all Macro mechanics, becomes like a Queen now but slightly buffed in ground range and maybe air attack speed This but the Micro Queen gets transfuse instead of the Macro queen. The evolution should also take some time, so Zerg isn t just sitting on only Macro queens and is fine morphing them, when Oracles allready hit. I gues Micro Queen also needs to be way faster of creep then, so it is not just a dead unit, when you attack or allways have to use nydus to get it to the other side.
Yes it needs morphing time, but not super much. You can do fake out attacks with all races, so Zerg panic morphs all his Queens and boom, damage done without a shot fired.
I wouldn't change off creep speed. Makes Zerg allins too powerful. It should still be a defensive unit
Transfuse switch is fine
For all I care you can even morph them back into Macro Queens. Ofc no refund 
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On December 12 2019 18:42 pinky29 wrote:
First off, I've played 400 games on the new patch; M1. This is the stupidity of blizzard to nerf, THEN BUFF! WHY!! You have every Zerg in the world winning tournaments, but you simply don't nerf their units. When Terrans were winning you cut the crap out of their units, but, instead you feel with every nerf deserves a buff. Why? WHY? WHY?
Here is a perfect example:
New Upgrade found on the Lurker Den: Seismic Spines
Increases the Lurker’s range from 8 to 10.
Requirement: Hive.
Research cost: 150/150.
Research duration: 57 seconds.
I have a 200/200 ground mech army (3/3) losing to a 2-1 hydra lurker/viper/army. All my hellbats are dead. Landed Vikings are instantly gone without any DPS - the range is ridiculous. I've done this at least 10x 1v1. Zerg not only has BL/Infestor now its has become a stomping ground for all that is Terran. Thors are instantly abducted. An obvious transition is BL the second all the Thors are gone and there is nothing but tanks against the 12312312430 Range of lurkers. Thanks BLIZZARD!!!
PS: Yes they outrange Turrets even with the upgrade. I'm saying this is becoming a two race game if you look at the streamers left. It is sad. You have a 17 year old, Reynor, which is very talented but can you honestly tell me in all of SC history we've had a 17 yr old defeating all the top Terran and Protoss and he is just a savant? I won't even mention Serral...you get my point.
Okay
So where are your ghosts in your lategame tvz composition, or are you just going to stick to your midgame comp when your opponent is rolling out endgame and still expect to win anyway?
What's killing your hellbats that isn't inside the range of tank/thor?
Your units are cheaper than his - how is he keeping up the trades when your blueflames are roasting his mineral lines all across the map?
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On December 10 2019 17:15 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2019 04:28 Slydie wrote:Changing the attack to 5 to help defend helions was probably the worst balance decision ever, as it essentially removed Terran from the first WCS season which was to be filled with BL/Infestor and immortal/sentry all ins. Only biased terrans feel this way, it was an okay buff at the time. Zerg had to mass drones just to keep up, and hellions/reapers would make it to the base before zerg would have enough lings, or roaches. Making lings severely puts you behind since they get outtraded, you don't have speed... of course, I'm sure terrans had a great time kiting everything and picking off free drones, but for zerg that was a total chore. Then people forgot that BL/infestor rose to prominence because zerg didn't have any other aggressive options that didn't get shut down hard, but that's a different discussion. Since lotv we start with a ton of workers, giving us way more options than before. I believe that was the biggest change paving the way towards toning down the queen.
Agree +++
Blliz said they wanna see shorter games, in fact it s just a question of 1 min less at start of the game....
Overall, games duration hadn t change imo...
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On December 12 2019 20:13 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2019 18:42 pinky29 wrote:
First off, I've played 400 games on the new patch; M1. This is the stupidity of blizzard to nerf, THEN BUFF! WHY!! You have every Zerg in the world winning tournaments, but you simply don't nerf their units. When Terrans were winning you cut the crap out of their units, but, instead you feel with every nerf deserves a buff. Why? WHY? WHY?
Here is a perfect example:
New Upgrade found on the Lurker Den: Seismic Spines
Increases the Lurker’s range from 8 to 10.
Requirement: Hive.
Research cost: 150/150.
Research duration: 57 seconds.
I have a 200/200 ground mech army (3/3) losing to a 2-1 hydra lurker/viper/army. All my hellbats are dead. Landed Vikings are instantly gone without any DPS - the range is ridiculous. I've done this at least 10x 1v1. Zerg not only has BL/Infestor now its has become a stomping ground for all that is Terran. Thors are instantly abducted. An obvious transition is BL the second all the Thors are gone and there is nothing but tanks against the 12312312430 Range of lurkers. Thanks BLIZZARD!!!
PS: Yes they outrange Turrets even with the upgrade. I'm saying this is becoming a two race game if you look at the streamers left. It is sad. You have a 17 year old, Reynor, which is very talented but can you honestly tell me in all of SC history we've had a 17 yr old defeating all the top Terran and Protoss and he is just a savant? I won't even mention Serral...you get my point.
Life? Hello? He won his first GSL at the age of 15? IIRC
During BL/infestor
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Lol, so many of these suggestions would pretty much delete Zerg from competitive play.
Such as 1 queen per hatchery.
Can you guys hold on the genius balance suggestions until maybe after GSL RO16?
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On December 13 2019 05:27 terribleplayer1 wrote:
Lol, so many of these suggestions would pretty much delete Zerg from competitive play.
Such as 1 queen per hatchery.
Can you guys hold on the genius balance suggestions until maybe after GSL RO16?
Given the two year domination of Zerg, having them disappear from tourament play would be a feature not a bug.
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I love how ppl pretend no zerg units ever get nerfed. They nerfed almost every single zerg unit in the last 3 years.
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So....now that we've played it. Can we officially say Protoss is dead?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 13 2019 05:19 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2019 20:13 deacon.frost wrote:On December 12 2019 18:42 pinky29 wrote:
First off, I've played 400 games on the new patch; M1. This is the stupidity of blizzard to nerf, THEN BUFF! WHY!! You have every Zerg in the world winning tournaments, but you simply don't nerf their units. When Terrans were winning you cut the crap out of their units, but, instead you feel with every nerf deserves a buff. Why? WHY? WHY?
Here is a perfect example:
New Upgrade found on the Lurker Den: Seismic Spines
Increases the Lurker’s range from 8 to 10.
Requirement: Hive.
Research cost: 150/150.
Research duration: 57 seconds.
I have a 200/200 ground mech army (3/3) losing to a 2-1 hydra lurker/viper/army. All my hellbats are dead. Landed Vikings are instantly gone without any DPS - the range is ridiculous. I've done this at least 10x 1v1. Zerg not only has BL/Infestor now its has become a stomping ground for all that is Terran. Thors are instantly abducted. An obvious transition is BL the second all the Thors are gone and there is nothing but tanks against the 12312312430 Range of lurkers. Thanks BLIZZARD!!!
PS: Yes they outrange Turrets even with the upgrade. I'm saying this is becoming a two race game if you look at the streamers left. It is sad. You have a 17 year old, Reynor, which is very talented but can you honestly tell me in all of SC history we've had a 17 yr old defeating all the top Terran and Protoss and he is just a savant? I won't even mention Serral...you get my point.
Life? Hello? He won his first GSL at the age of 15? IIRC During BL/infestor
Fine, OK, it's not like he didn't win anything in the next 2 years until he's 17 as requested
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On December 13 2019 05:27 terribleplayer1 wrote:
Lol, so many of these suggestions would pretty much delete Zerg from competitive play.
Such as 1 queen per hatchery.
Can you guys hold on the genius balance suggestions until maybe after GSL RO16?
People usually also suggest giving Zerg alternative ways of dealing with bcs and oracles or nerfing other races with changes like that.
Leaving a race out is not fun, there is only 3 of them.
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EPT
