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On November 28 2019 04:15 Obamarauder wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 04:02 Snakestyle11 wrote:On November 28 2019 03:03 Big-t wrote:On November 28 2019 02:44 Majick wrote:On November 28 2019 02:40 norlock wrote:
Why don't they nerf the range of the queen? I don't know why such a unit should have such a huge range, when libs, warp prism, etc all get nerfed in range. I think it should be a t1 unit to just survive air at the opening phase of the game. It's role is too generic like the infestor was/is in my opinion, what do you think? I think the queen should be even stronger but there should be a limit of 1 queen per hatch so that massing is not an option. I hate it that I have to build so many queens to survive early game without falling behind. This. I hate watching mass queens and I think it is the real reason zerg was / is so strong. One queen per hatch could solve this. Maybe buff the queen a bit, but I think it is not Ok that Zergs just mass queens the whole time. But yeah, anti air range feals to be too much. I mean they keep adding units and strategies that forces zerg to mass more queens. In todays game, if you dont mass queen you die against half the meta builds out there. Nerf queen and just remove BC teleport completely. its such a dumb gimmick and takes away any strategic aspect. Even terran players dont like BC teleport
I dont agree with nerfing queens after voidrays got buffed.
my original idea is having them cost some gas (i.e. 25), but not the initial one per base.
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On December 03 2019 10:51 Kertorak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 04:15 Obamarauder wrote:On November 28 2019 04:02 Snakestyle11 wrote:On November 28 2019 03:03 Big-t wrote:On November 28 2019 02:44 Majick wrote:On November 28 2019 02:40 norlock wrote:
Why don't they nerf the range of the queen? I don't know why such a unit should have such a huge range, when libs, warp prism, etc all get nerfed in range. I think it should be a t1 unit to just survive air at the opening phase of the game. It's role is too generic like the infestor was/is in my opinion, what do you think? I think the queen should be even stronger but there should be a limit of 1 queen per hatch so that massing is not an option. I hate it that I have to build so many queens to survive early game without falling behind. This. I hate watching mass queens and I think it is the real reason zerg was / is so strong. One queen per hatch could solve this. Maybe buff the queen a bit, but I think it is not Ok that Zergs just mass queens the whole time. But yeah, anti air range feals to be too much. I mean they keep adding units and strategies that forces zerg to mass more queens. In todays game, if you dont mass queen you die against half the meta builds out there. Nerf queen and just remove BC teleport completely. its such a dumb gimmick and takes away any strategic aspect. Even terran players dont like BC teleport I dont agree with nerfing queens after voidrays got buffed. my original idea is having them cost some gas (i.e. 25), but not the initial one per base.
Voids got a late game upgrade along with a Nerf (bug fix).
That has nothing to do with nerfing queens.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On December 03 2019 08:28 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2019 08:07 Kertorak wrote:
feels bad getting cheesed every game since they started showing mmr
I agree with scarlett...
how is supposed to be ladder training with that xxx "feature"?
I think fore tournaments featur its fine (or maybe grandmaster) If you are masters playing vs a diamond, does the diamond get to see your mmr? I ask from a masters perspective. It's not very fair that they get to see mine and I don't get to see theirs. When I play with my main I don't get this problem because I only play masters players. But when I play random it's annoying and diamonds only cheese me.
I play unranked and I don't see anyones MMR. I wonder if they see mine.
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France12758 Posts
On December 03 2019 17:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2019 08:28 youngjiddle wrote:On December 03 2019 08:07 Kertorak wrote:
feels bad getting cheesed every game since they started showing mmr
I agree with scarlett...
how is supposed to be ladder training with that xxx "feature"?
I think fore tournaments featur its fine (or maybe grandmaster) If you are masters playing vs a diamond, does the diamond get to see your mmr? I ask from a masters perspective. It's not very fair that they get to see mine and I don't get to see theirs. When I play with my main I don't get this problem because I only play masters players. But when I play random it's annoying and diamonds only cheese me. I play unranked and I don't see anyones MMR. I wonder if they see mine.
I think ranked players actually see your ranked MMR if you play unranked.
I faced a zerg with 5100+ in the loading screen but only 4800 after his loss, so that’s my guess.
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On December 03 2019 08:02 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2019 07:18 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 03 2019 07:08 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 03 2019 04:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 03 2019 03:28 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 16:09 serendipitous wrote:On December 02 2019 11:25 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:
[quote]
Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup.
Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines. Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem. Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc. This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units. Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play? Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat. Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots. Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such. Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots. I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions. There's a reason not a single terran pro goes hellbats, it's not like they're busy making excuses. It's just inefficient, and they die too easily to other units. Pull back your zealots for 5 seconds and every hellbat will be melted by collosi or disruptors or storm or stalkers or immortals and then they're gone. Mines go off in an instant, and start off invisible, they're a great way to fight against mass chargelots and are used until you start transitioning to lategame. This is where you need to think things through. Why would you field hellbats when it isn't a chargelot heavy composition? If there's Colossus, it's either late game or it's a fast colossus build. If you scout mass chargelots,you adapt. If you don't, if you think 8 hellbats is going to make bio somehow bad, that's on you. The point of the hellbat isn't to trade efficiently, it's to soak the initial hit, deal a bunch of damage and then die so your bio can live...if Colossus or any type of splash got out, then your window for smashing chargelots has probably closed if you insist on using bio and you'll need to siege up with libs, emp blanket and all that fun stuff. But until then, if you scout mass chargelot and you don't get some Hellbats, you screwed up. And yes, a lot of Terran pros need to learn this. So again, less excuses, more adapting! Perhaps it does work well up to a point on ladder for sure, I don’t refer to pros as evidence anything is bad, I don’t see how they’re better than the other factory options for supporting bio though. Mines do pretty brutal splash and also are useful defensively, tanks give long range zoning splash and this is useful both defensively or in gradually pushing. Neither of these really cares hugely for armoury upgrades either which is nice. Hellbats are slow and get zoned by other Protoss units, although they’re good against Zealots specifically. They would situationally be really good I’m just not sure you can force a game to fit those situations. The amount of times I've seen a Terran get rekt by their own Widow Mines because they thought going bio mine vs chargelots was a good idea is mind numbing. If the Protoss has a brain, they will use that friendly fire to gib your own units regularly. I'd argue that outside of a few stray mines in chokes around the map, mines are one of the worst units to use vs Protoss right now (in battle, they still rock for harass). Especially with new charge. Very specifically vs chargelots, you're better off getting 8 Hellbats. If it's not mass chargelots or if they transitioned, then the 8 Hellbats aren't going to do anything because as you pointed out, they get rekt by splash damage and basically everything not named Zealot or Adept. It's just a very strong counter to charge allins. Be in ones on the current patch or the previous one. I could see it working really well against charge allins defensively for sure because the Hellbat’s relative slowness isn’t a factor when the Zealots are charging into your position. Who would have an armory in time for a charge all-in? It usually goes down in time for 2-2 to start, and quick armories is only used in BC or BFH builds, mostly against zerg. Even tvt mech usually has late upgrades as it is so important to get factories up and gas is hard to come by. I believe helbats vs toss was actually meta at some point, but others have pointed out why that is not the case anymore, disruptors being one of them. Imo, Widowmines are stupid units in how they can punish small attention mistakes with major damage, but balance wise they are needed for Terran to keep their opponents on their toes and counter mass melee. That players have to avoid/abuse both mine and siegetank friendly fire is a part of the game I have accepted. #BabelFish1: Have you laddered some more after the patch? Is your PvT doing ok?
Hate PvT right now. It's sacky, unfun and full of abuses on both sides. Most games are just cheese or a 1 base allin because Protoss can't hold early game aggression without charge. So you end up having to get 4 shield batteries just to stay alive and that aint cheap.
And nevermind the imbalance of drilling claw widow mines running into battle and burrowing. That crap is so unfair. WMs should not be able to run into battle and burrow. 1st off, that's not what a mine does and 2nd, with how their attack priority works, how tanky they are, how cheap they are and how damaging they are...not okay. You can't give a unit like that nigh instant burrow...
So I switched to Terran. If the balance team is going to be biased then I'll pick their favorite race. And ever since I've been having fun again.
Did I mention how I think the balance team is biased and is kinda crappy at their jobs? I haven't seen a balance patch this bad since David Kim was in charge.
But hey, KeEp GiViNg PrOtOsS UnItS MoRE MoVeMeNt SpEeD, because rushing toothless units into battle totally makes up for their damage being gutted or being countered by everything and their mother!
Arg needed to get that out of my system. I haven't been this unimpressed with sc2 since early LotV when Tankivacs were a thing.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 04 2019 05:24 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2019 08:02 Slydie wrote:On December 03 2019 07:18 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 03 2019 07:08 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 03 2019 04:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 03 2019 03:28 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 16:09 serendipitous wrote:On December 02 2019 11:25 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:
[quote]
Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem.
Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc.
This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units.
Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play? Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat. Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots. Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such. Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots. I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions. There's a reason not a single terran pro goes hellbats, it's not like they're busy making excuses. It's just inefficient, and they die too easily to other units. Pull back your zealots for 5 seconds and every hellbat will be melted by collosi or disruptors or storm or stalkers or immortals and then they're gone. Mines go off in an instant, and start off invisible, they're a great way to fight against mass chargelots and are used until you start transitioning to lategame. This is where you need to think things through. Why would you field hellbats when it isn't a chargelot heavy composition? If there's Colossus, it's either late game or it's a fast colossus build. If you scout mass chargelots,you adapt. If you don't, if you think 8 hellbats is going to make bio somehow bad, that's on you. The point of the hellbat isn't to trade efficiently, it's to soak the initial hit, deal a bunch of damage and then die so your bio can live...if Colossus or any type of splash got out, then your window for smashing chargelots has probably closed if you insist on using bio and you'll need to siege up with libs, emp blanket and all that fun stuff. But until then, if you scout mass chargelot and you don't get some Hellbats, you screwed up. And yes, a lot of Terran pros need to learn this. So again, less excuses, more adapting! Perhaps it does work well up to a point on ladder for sure, I don’t refer to pros as evidence anything is bad, I don’t see how they’re better than the other factory options for supporting bio though. Mines do pretty brutal splash and also are useful defensively, tanks give long range zoning splash and this is useful both defensively or in gradually pushing. Neither of these really cares hugely for armoury upgrades either which is nice. Hellbats are slow and get zoned by other Protoss units, although they’re good against Zealots specifically. They would situationally be really good I’m just not sure you can force a game to fit those situations. The amount of times I've seen a Terran get rekt by their own Widow Mines because they thought going bio mine vs chargelots was a good idea is mind numbing. If the Protoss has a brain, they will use that friendly fire to gib your own units regularly. I'd argue that outside of a few stray mines in chokes around the map, mines are one of the worst units to use vs Protoss right now (in battle, they still rock for harass). Especially with new charge. Very specifically vs chargelots, you're better off getting 8 Hellbats. If it's not mass chargelots or if they transitioned, then the 8 Hellbats aren't going to do anything because as you pointed out, they get rekt by splash damage and basically everything not named Zealot or Adept. It's just a very strong counter to charge allins. Be in ones on the current patch or the previous one. I could see it working really well against charge allins defensively for sure because the Hellbat’s relative slowness isn’t a factor when the Zealots are charging into your position. Who would have an armory in time for a charge all-in? It usually goes down in time for 2-2 to start, and quick armories is only used in BC or BFH builds, mostly against zerg. Even tvt mech usually has late upgrades as it is so important to get factories up and gas is hard to come by. I believe helbats vs toss was actually meta at some point, but others have pointed out why that is not the case anymore, disruptors being one of them. Imo, Widowmines are stupid units in how they can punish small attention mistakes with major damage, but balance wise they are needed for Terran to keep their opponents on their toes and counter mass melee. That players have to avoid/abuse both mine and siegetank friendly fire is a part of the game I have accepted. #BabelFish1: Have you laddered some more after the patch? Is your PvT doing ok? Hate PvT right now. It's sacky, unfun and full of abuses on both sides. Most games are just cheese or a 1 base allin because Protoss can't hold early game aggression without charge. So you end up having to get 4 shield batteries just to stay alive and that aint cheap. And nevermind the imbalance of drilling claw widow mines running into battle and burrowing. That crap is so unfair. WMs should not be able to run into battle and burrow. 1st off, that's not what a mine does and 2nd, with how their attack priority works, how tanky they are, how cheap they are and how damaging they are...not okay. You can't give a unit like that nigh instant burrow... So I switched to Terran. If the balance team is going to be biased then I'll pick their favorite race. And ever since I've been having fun again. Did I mention how I think the balance team is biased and is kinda crappy at their jobs? I haven't seen a balance patch this bad since David Kim was in charge. But hey, KeEp GiViNg PrOtOsS UnItS MoRE MoVeMeNt SpEeD, because rushing toothless units into battle totally makes up for their damage being gutted or being countered by everything and their mother! Arg needed to get that out of my system. I haven't been this unimpressed with sc2 since early LotV when Tankivacs were a thing.
Welcome to the Terran club, then! I hope you stick around. TvT is a bitch to learn, though. Players tend to love it or hate it. Good luck!
That all the matchups feel very different and are fun and challenging is my main reason for sticking with the race since WoL.
It would be fun to explore the trickery and incredible deathballs of Protoss and the swarming, tech switches and easier unit production of Zerg too at some point.
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On December 04 2019 17:56 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2019 05:24 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 03 2019 08:02 Slydie wrote:On December 03 2019 07:18 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 03 2019 07:08 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 03 2019 04:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 03 2019 03:28 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 16:09 serendipitous wrote:On December 02 2019 11:25 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:
[quote]
Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play?
Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat.
Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots.
Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such. Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots. I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions. There's a reason not a single terran pro goes hellbats, it's not like they're busy making excuses. It's just inefficient, and they die too easily to other units. Pull back your zealots for 5 seconds and every hellbat will be melted by collosi or disruptors or storm or stalkers or immortals and then they're gone. Mines go off in an instant, and start off invisible, they're a great way to fight against mass chargelots and are used until you start transitioning to lategame. This is where you need to think things through. Why would you field hellbats when it isn't a chargelot heavy composition? If there's Colossus, it's either late game or it's a fast colossus build. If you scout mass chargelots,you adapt. If you don't, if you think 8 hellbats is going to make bio somehow bad, that's on you. The point of the hellbat isn't to trade efficiently, it's to soak the initial hit, deal a bunch of damage and then die so your bio can live...if Colossus or any type of splash got out, then your window for smashing chargelots has probably closed if you insist on using bio and you'll need to siege up with libs, emp blanket and all that fun stuff. But until then, if you scout mass chargelot and you don't get some Hellbats, you screwed up. And yes, a lot of Terran pros need to learn this. So again, less excuses, more adapting! Perhaps it does work well up to a point on ladder for sure, I don’t refer to pros as evidence anything is bad, I don’t see how they’re better than the other factory options for supporting bio though. Mines do pretty brutal splash and also are useful defensively, tanks give long range zoning splash and this is useful both defensively or in gradually pushing. Neither of these really cares hugely for armoury upgrades either which is nice. Hellbats are slow and get zoned by other Protoss units, although they’re good against Zealots specifically. They would situationally be really good I’m just not sure you can force a game to fit those situations. The amount of times I've seen a Terran get rekt by their own Widow Mines because they thought going bio mine vs chargelots was a good idea is mind numbing. If the Protoss has a brain, they will use that friendly fire to gib your own units regularly. I'd argue that outside of a few stray mines in chokes around the map, mines are one of the worst units to use vs Protoss right now (in battle, they still rock for harass). Especially with new charge. Very specifically vs chargelots, you're better off getting 8 Hellbats. If it's not mass chargelots or if they transitioned, then the 8 Hellbats aren't going to do anything because as you pointed out, they get rekt by splash damage and basically everything not named Zealot or Adept. It's just a very strong counter to charge allins. Be in ones on the current patch or the previous one. I could see it working really well against charge allins defensively for sure because the Hellbat’s relative slowness isn’t a factor when the Zealots are charging into your position. Who would have an armory in time for a charge all-in? It usually goes down in time for 2-2 to start, and quick armories is only used in BC or BFH builds, mostly against zerg. Even tvt mech usually has late upgrades as it is so important to get factories up and gas is hard to come by. I believe helbats vs toss was actually meta at some point, but others have pointed out why that is not the case anymore, disruptors being one of them. Imo, Widowmines are stupid units in how they can punish small attention mistakes with major damage, but balance wise they are needed for Terran to keep their opponents on their toes and counter mass melee. That players have to avoid/abuse both mine and siegetank friendly fire is a part of the game I have accepted. #BabelFish1: Have you laddered some more after the patch? Is your PvT doing ok? Hate PvT right now. It's sacky, unfun and full of abuses on both sides. Most games are just cheese or a 1 base allin because Protoss can't hold early game aggression without charge. So you end up having to get 4 shield batteries just to stay alive and that aint cheap. And nevermind the imbalance of drilling claw widow mines running into battle and burrowing. That crap is so unfair. WMs should not be able to run into battle and burrow. 1st off, that's not what a mine does and 2nd, with how their attack priority works, how tanky they are, how cheap they are and how damaging they are...not okay. You can't give a unit like that nigh instant burrow... So I switched to Terran. If the balance team is going to be biased then I'll pick their favorite race. And ever since I've been having fun again. Did I mention how I think the balance team is biased and is kinda crappy at their jobs? I haven't seen a balance patch this bad since David Kim was in charge. But hey, KeEp GiViNg PrOtOsS UnItS MoRE MoVeMeNt SpEeD, because rushing toothless units into battle totally makes up for their damage being gutted or being countered by everything and their mother! Arg needed to get that out of my system. I haven't been this unimpressed with sc2 since early LotV when Tankivacs were a thing. Welcome to the Terran club, then! I hope you stick around. TvT is a bitch to learn, though. Players tend to love it or hate it. Good luck! That all the matchups feel very different and are fun and challenging is my main reason for sticking with the race since WoL. It would be fun to explore the trickery and incredible deathballs of Protoss and the swarming, tech switches and easier unit production of Zerg too at some point.
Oh, I'm no stranger to Terran. I played random for quite some time.
TvT, outside of LAWL DOOM DROPZ is actually not bad...though the games can last too long...had one TvT 2 days ago that was 65 minutes long. Over 300 turrets were made, BC Thor vs Hellion Viking Tank Cyclone. Hellions eventually had to get sent out to clear turrets like they were creep tumors just so the Vikings could fight the BCs but due to the mass BCs he had to dedicate almost his entire army into Vikings..so when the Vikings landed to kill a PF or some Thors, I'd warp on top of them, rapid cast Yamato and take a massively efficient trade as he ran away with 1/2 his Vikings dead.
Was pretty interesting and shockingly full of action for such a long game.
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Switch hydra/roach to be hatch/lair instead,respectively, and rebalance the units to accommodate this (weaker hydra, tankier and burstier roach. Maybe 1 supply hydra)
Take away some more range from hydra and slap it back on the lair upgrade, do the same with speed. Remove queen anti-air. Bc doesn't need nerf.
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On December 07 2019 20:47 WaesumNinja wrote:
Switch hydra/roach to be hatch/lair instead,respectively, and rebalance the units to accommodate this (weaker hydra, tankier and burstier roach. Maybe 1 supply hydra)
Take away some more range from hydra and slap it back on the lair upgrade, do the same with speed. Remove queen anti-air. Bc doesn't need nerf.
It s a good idea,
Blizz had always tried to setup the roach in the zerg army (back to the Beta), maybe he hasn t his place..
Approve your idea
+1
This is the kind of change we need, and something more with speedy gonza creep tumors...
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I've been having a lot of fun with this patch with PvZ. Lots of zergs at my level have suddenly been trying mass muta or muta switches so I've been opening stargate/twilight council into 2 stargate into fleet beacon. If they go muta, I make phoenixes and get range, if they don't I go for what is now my favourite dumb, probably bad composition of turbo voidrays, charge zealots, and archons. It's such a fun, fast composition to play. Whether it's actually good is to be debated, but it's a lot of fun. Combine that fast composition with zealot harass at other bases and protoss is now suddenly able to force zerg to multitask in a way they couldn't previously, or at least couldn't nearly as well. The turbo voidrays are great for catching greedy zergs who try to mass expand on the bigger maps without adequate defence.
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Don't know if it's technically possible but maybe creep tumors should become worse the longer they are from a hatchery. Creep is important for zerg defense but makes everything imba when in play for offense. If creep tumors were much slower when used to spread creap all over the map, it could maybe give a better balance to late game.
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On December 07 2019 20:47 WaesumNinja wrote:
Switch hydra/roach to be hatch/lair instead,respectively, and rebalance the units to accommodate this (weaker hydra, tankier and burstier roach. Maybe 1 supply hydra)
Take away some more range from hydra and slap it back on the lair upgrade, do the same with speed. Remove queen anti-air. Bc doesn't need nerf.
How would zerg not lose versus hellion / bcs everygame?
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On December 09 2019 07:55 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2019 20:47 WaesumNinja wrote:
Switch hydra/roach to be hatch/lair instead,respectively, and rebalance the units to accommodate this (weaker hydra, tankier and burstier roach. Maybe 1 supply hydra)
Take away some more range from hydra and slap it back on the lair upgrade, do the same with speed. Remove queen anti-air. Bc doesn't need nerf. How would zerg not lose versus hellion / bcs everygame?
or Has style Mass oracles?
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On December 09 2019 07:55 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2019 20:47 WaesumNinja wrote:
Switch hydra/roach to be hatch/lair instead,respectively, and rebalance the units to accommodate this (weaker hydra, tankier and burstier roach. Maybe 1 supply hydra)
Take away some more range from hydra and slap it back on the lair upgrade, do the same with speed. Remove queen anti-air. Bc doesn't need nerf. How would zerg not lose versus hellion / bcs everygame?
hydras are not the counter to bcs or hellion/cyclone though...
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On December 09 2019 07:55 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2019 20:47 WaesumNinja wrote:
Switch hydra/roach to be hatch/lair instead,respectively, and rebalance the units to accommodate this (weaker hydra, tankier and burstier roach. Maybe 1 supply hydra)
Take away some more range from hydra and slap it back on the lair upgrade, do the same with speed. Remove queen anti-air. Bc doesn't need nerf. How would zerg not lose versus hellion / bcs everygame?
Yes, it is a question of power creep. Even pre patch, Zerg was not THAT op!
Zerg is balanced around stupidly good queens and production mechanics. Protoss around warp gate and Chrono boost. IMO, Terran imo has gotten bandaid OP stuff to compensate, notably mules and widow mines.
By doing major changes to one race, all races needs tweaks. A theoretic example from the Hydra change:
-By moving Hydras to T1, some all-ins vs Protoss are almost impossible to stop, even if scouted.
-Protoss received some significant buffs to their gateway units to compensate.
-As a result, PvP becomes gateway wars and Terran loses the slight advantage they have with the Stim/Medivac timing so Protoss can go to 3 bases with even more greed or just gateway all-in.
-Terran recieves buffs to tanks, mines and liberators to keep toss at bay, causing new problems in all matchups. Etc...
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Does it make sense for you to play a longer game against a quite lower MMR?
Perhaps it is not that bad to be cheesed and play shorter games vs lower-level players, after all. It gives you more time to play against your pairs.
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On December 09 2019 07:55 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2019 20:47 WaesumNinja wrote:
Switch hydra/roach to be hatch/lair instead,respectively, and rebalance the units to accommodate this (weaker hydra, tankier and burstier roach. Maybe 1 supply hydra)
Take away some more range from hydra and slap it back on the lair upgrade, do the same with speed. Remove queen anti-air. Bc doesn't need nerf. How would zerg not lose versus hellion / bcs everygame?
It's not a perfect solution, but at this point I don't think there even is one.
But the way you react to this just shows how much of a role the queen fills currently. Ideally it wouldn't have any attack, much like how orbitals can't attack, but would just act as a support unit to whatever else you have around. At least, I find that a more interesting design than a good-vs-everything mineral unit that runs around on creep. Also since you can't rally them, they're annoying to mass produce to begin with.
Hydra needs to be t1 if you remove the attacks from queen. I think removing queen anti-air is a good start, but my opinion is that it would be more interesting if it didn't have any attacks at all.
Yes, anti-light units would be very powerful after this change, and hydras are far from ideal against bc unless you make hydras cheaper. Making hydra super slow off-creep until research makes them less rushable, but limiting them in this way isn't necessarily the best way, either.
Moving things off from the queen will make zerg a more interesting race, and it'd need to start somewhere.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On December 09 2019 21:43 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 07:55 Snakestyle11 wrote:On December 07 2019 20:47 WaesumNinja wrote:
Switch hydra/roach to be hatch/lair instead,respectively, and rebalance the units to accommodate this (weaker hydra, tankier and burstier roach. Maybe 1 supply hydra)
Take away some more range from hydra and slap it back on the lair upgrade, do the same with speed. Remove queen anti-air. Bc doesn't need nerf. How would zerg not lose versus hellion / bcs everygame? + Show Spoiler +
It's not a perfect solution, but at this point I don't think there even is one.
But the way you react to this just shows how much of a role the queen fills currently. Ideally it wouldn't have any attack, much like how orbitals can't attack, but would just act as a support unit to whatever else you have around. At least, I find that a more interesting design than a good-vs-everything mineral unit that runs around on creep. Also since you can't rally them, they're annoying to mass produce to begin with.
Hydra needs to be t1 if you remove the attacks from queen. I think removing queen anti-air is a good start, but my opinion is that it would be more interesting if it didn't have any attacks at all.
Yes, anti-light units would be very powerful after this change, and hydras are far from ideal against bc unless you make hydras cheaper. Making hydra super slow off-creep until research makes them less rushable, but limiting them in this way isn't necessarily the best way, either.
Moving things off from the queen will make zerg a more interesting race, and it'd need to start somewhere.
YES! YES! I fully support this. But that's a big redesign and I don't think that Blizzard is capable of doing so in this time with how old the game is. (no offense to Blizzard, I get it, it would require many people and monies)
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On December 09 2019 22:24 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 21:43 WaesumNinja wrote:On December 09 2019 07:55 Snakestyle11 wrote:On December 07 2019 20:47 WaesumNinja wrote:
Switch hydra/roach to be hatch/lair instead,respectively, and rebalance the units to accommodate this (weaker hydra, tankier and burstier roach. Maybe 1 supply hydra)
Take away some more range from hydra and slap it back on the lair upgrade, do the same with speed. Remove queen anti-air. Bc doesn't need nerf. How would zerg not lose versus hellion / bcs everygame? + Show Spoiler +
It's not a perfect solution, but at this point I don't think there even is one.
But the way you react to this just shows how much of a role the queen fills currently. Ideally it wouldn't have any attack, much like how orbitals can't attack, but would just act as a support unit to whatever else you have around. At least, I find that a more interesting design than a good-vs-everything mineral unit that runs around on creep. Also since you can't rally them, they're annoying to mass produce to begin with.
Hydra needs to be t1 if you remove the attacks from queen. I think removing queen anti-air is a good start, but my opinion is that it would be more interesting if it didn't have any attacks at all.
Yes, anti-light units would be very powerful after this change, and hydras are far from ideal against bc unless you make hydras cheaper. Making hydra super slow off-creep until research makes them less rushable, but limiting them in this way isn't necessarily the best way, either.
Moving things off from the queen will make zerg a more interesting race, and it'd need to start somewhere. YES! YES! I fully support this. But that's a big redesign and I don't think that Blizzard is capable of doing so in this time with how old the game is. (no offense to Blizzard, I get it, it would require many people and monies)
How about we just leave both roaches and hydras on T1?
You have both roaches to defend against things like protoss Adept all-ins and you can have hydras to defend against air harass instead of queens. You as a Zerg would need to scout properly and adjust your unit comp.
Also if T1 would happen to be to weak in later stages of the game you can have upgrades which could prolong its utility.
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Canada8988 Posts
On December 10 2019 00:57 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 22:24 deacon.frost wrote:On December 09 2019 21:43 WaesumNinja wrote:On December 09 2019 07:55 Snakestyle11 wrote:On December 07 2019 20:47 WaesumNinja wrote:
Switch hydra/roach to be hatch/lair instead,respectively, and rebalance the units to accommodate this (weaker hydra, tankier and burstier roach. Maybe 1 supply hydra)
Take away some more range from hydra and slap it back on the lair upgrade, do the same with speed. Remove queen anti-air. Bc doesn't need nerf. How would zerg not lose versus hellion / bcs everygame? + Show Spoiler +
It's not a perfect solution, but at this point I don't think there even is one.
But the way you react to this just shows how much of a role the queen fills currently. Ideally it wouldn't have any attack, much like how orbitals can't attack, but would just act as a support unit to whatever else you have around. At least, I find that a more interesting design than a good-vs-everything mineral unit that runs around on creep. Also since you can't rally them, they're annoying to mass produce to begin with.
Hydra needs to be t1 if you remove the attacks from queen. I think removing queen anti-air is a good start, but my opinion is that it would be more interesting if it didn't have any attacks at all.
Yes, anti-light units would be very powerful after this change, and hydras are far from ideal against bc unless you make hydras cheaper. Making hydra super slow off-creep until research makes them less rushable, but limiting them in this way isn't necessarily the best way, either.
Moving things off from the queen will make zerg a more interesting race, and it'd need to start somewhere. YES! YES! I fully support this. But that's a big redesign and I don't think that Blizzard is capable of doing so in this time with how old the game is. (no offense to Blizzard, I get it, it would require many people and monies) How about we just leave both roaches and hydras on T1? You have both roaches to defend against things like protoss Adept all-ins and you can have hydras to defend against air harass instead of queens. You as a Zerg would need to scout properly and adjust your unit comp. Also if T1 would happen to be to weak in later stages of the game you can have upgrades which could prolong its utility.
It still dosen't fix the problem of proxy stargate or starport, or even proxy robo immortal. Aproxy oracle can be into your base way quicker than you can go roaches (or what would be hydra in that case), you would basicly need to cut every single lings to have hydra out the fastest you can or just get the risk of beeing obliterate by air. (Uncontested oracles can kill the hydra den anyway even if you have two spores in each mineral lines.
But keeping the idea, how about we gave queen an air attack, but no ground attack? Maybe force zerg to make more units in the early-mid game?
You could also make building queens take larva that could fix a few things
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EPT
