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On December 01 2019 18:20 Highrock1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2019 04:56 AttackZerg wrote:
After dunking on heavy mech- thor-tank-hellion- compositions with ling-lurker-ultra-viper with a handful of corrupters... I am sure they are going to weaken lurkers.
A few blinding clouds, a few ultras to tank and woah, the +10 range lurkers just destroy heavy mech.
Armies that would require multiple remakes to eliminate before (without IT abuse) now are totally fightable.
Also, most of the maps are too big for mech.
ZvP.... is way harder now. I am not good or gosu but toss is alot more threatening now. The new void Ray's can eliminate a defended base in seconds. You can no longer ignore the early phase of sky toss.
Lurkers are sooo good thou. Leave a few at the fourth, wait for probe transfer and bam.
Anyone else using dropper lords more now?
Roach-ling drops really force protoss to decided between attack and defense more.
So strange that temps and dts aren't used in small numbers to defend bases ala bw. Sometimes I see a temp or 2 but I rarely see dts used to stymie ling-roach psuedo counters. Been having a LOT of problem with heavy mech so I would love to see a replay of how you use that composition. Because of how tanks outrange lurkers I didn't think that would be viable, do you use the blinding clouds to dive in with the lurkers? sounds super risky. What happens if the tanks aren't clumped enough to cloud?
I focus the blinding clouds on the thors, not tanks.
When I get home, later today (pst) I will pm you a link when I can upload a rep.
(Note: am not gosu at this game)
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On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2019 21:40 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 04:24 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 01:21 Shuffleblade wrote:On November 30 2019 11:09 BabelFish1 wrote:
Because feelings don't really matter much, what does matter is cold, hard logic.
So pros experience and opinion doesn't matter, got it. On November 30 2019 13:12 BabelFish1 wrote:
I dunno man, I've tried the new zealots vs bio and they're awful. Beasty did too and he thought they were awful. They die much, much faster now and bio actually does better by not kiting vs chargelots.
So you tried the units and YOU don't like them and therefore its the truth? Oh and also one pro actually agree with me so I must be right even if multiple other pros disagreeThe cold hard truth is that zealot charge overall was changed, not buffed not nerfed but changed. Zealots with charge are stronger in some situations and weaker in others. That means that if you expect them to work as well as before in all situations the problem actually lies with you. Use the unit in the ways that it is good now, instead of stubbornly trying to use it is the same as before and complain that it was changed as if you didn't know that. If terrans need to retreat from zealots they need to stim a lot harder than before and therefore lose more health and medivac energy. Your comment how terrans dont even need to micro against mass zealots now really makes you seem like you don't understand the concept of starcraft at all. If a zerg would rage because mass zerglings (fast but frail, kind of similar to current zealots) cant counter a dense bio ball with medivacs everyone would laugh at him. Throw in some banelings (tldr colossi, storm or disruptors) and that would look a hell of a lot different. If terran bio needs to be dense to counter chargelots how about mixing in units that counter units that huddle up densily? This shows that you've no concept of StarCraft 2 mate. I'll break it down. When a unit loses 1/3rd of it's damage and gains a bunch of movement speed instead...that's a huge nerf. Movement speed doesn't make up for 33% damage loss and we have examples of this in TvP; bio vs chargelots already. They are no longer a front line unit, they are too fast to keep together with supporting units, they can't tank worth a damn now and they kill stuff in 33% more time, provided you actively use the charge micro trick. Zerglings and Chargelots are not even close to comparable...Zerglings have Zerg production to swarm with them and you get 2 for the price of 1. Zealots to be comparable need a TON of gateways which only happens late game. Zealots are also twice the cost, twice the supply, etc...perhaps it's you who lacks understanding of StarCraft 2? Chargelots didn't counter bio, they contested it when the Terran moved out onto the map at 5 minutes with a 2 base allin... Just a thought here, maybe you shouldn't take such a rude tone when your understanding of the situation is...lacking to say the least. I am not sure if you are trolling but I really think you are wrong here. First, you have to show how you calculate that loss of dps.. I suspect you count only the first attack, but if the unit attacks more than once it looks very different, with the DPS drop being smaller for each hit. This is even if you used your double charge trick, which might lose out on a normal attack in the process. Also, if you have ever seen slowling vs speedling fights you would know that the time it takes for a unit to surround, retreat, chase or go from one target to the next matters a lot. Calculating actual damage output during a fight is much more complicated than just adding up the impact of the first attack... I don't troll here, I just have a very short patience span when it comes to elitism and hubris. Very, very short and if I see it, I will call a person out for it without getting into name calling or other silly childish acts. I counted the second attack, that's why it's a 33% damage nerf and not a 50% damage nerf. A lot of the time, Zeralots don't get more than 2 attacks off, they end up dying after throwing out 24 total damage, before upgrades are factored in that's why I don't count a Zeralot staying alive to deal more damage than charge+2 attacks, it's not realistic outside of specific low supply scenarios. Like Charge at 4:30 to counter a Marine Tank 2 base allin or something similar. It doesn't matter if chargelots can surround when they are too expensive to throw away and when they do get a surround, they just end up dying in a terribly inefficient trade anyhow. Especially since the speed means they'll end up auto engaging ahead of the army. You're constantly fighting your Zealots if you want to use them as a meat shield and not a runby skirmisher unit. So unless Zealots start costing 50 minerals and earl game, can be warped in sets of 2, there's no real comparison between the zealot and a zergling, even with the charge nerf. I mentioned Zerglings because the importance of the speed of melee units should be obvious in that scenario, not because I think they are the same. In ranged vs melee fights, one could argue that speed is even more important. Zealots alone are actually supposed to be mediocre vs stimmed bio with medivac support. Otherwise, there would be no incentive for protoss to tech up. Next time you see a dense marine ball, land a storm in the middle of it, have your faster zealots chase down the red bio and collect some Terran tears. Doesn't work like that. At all. Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk. Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle. When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step. So yeah, I disagree with you entirely. Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down.
Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup.
Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines.
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On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 21:40 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 04:24 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 01:21 Shuffleblade wrote:On November 30 2019 11:09 BabelFish1 wrote:
Because feelings don't really matter much, what does matter is cold, hard logic.
So pros experience and opinion doesn't matter, got it. On November 30 2019 13:12 BabelFish1 wrote:
I dunno man, I've tried the new zealots vs bio and they're awful. Beasty did too and he thought they were awful. They die much, much faster now and bio actually does better by not kiting vs chargelots.
So you tried the units and YOU don't like them and therefore its the truth? Oh and also one pro actually agree with me so I must be right even if multiple other pros disagreeThe cold hard truth is that zealot charge overall was changed, not buffed not nerfed but changed. Zealots with charge are stronger in some situations and weaker in others. That means that if you expect them to work as well as before in all situations the problem actually lies with you. Use the unit in the ways that it is good now, instead of stubbornly trying to use it is the same as before and complain that it was changed as if you didn't know that. If terrans need to retreat from zealots they need to stim a lot harder than before and therefore lose more health and medivac energy. Your comment how terrans dont even need to micro against mass zealots now really makes you seem like you don't understand the concept of starcraft at all. If a zerg would rage because mass zerglings (fast but frail, kind of similar to current zealots) cant counter a dense bio ball with medivacs everyone would laugh at him. Throw in some banelings (tldr colossi, storm or disruptors) and that would look a hell of a lot different. If terran bio needs to be dense to counter chargelots how about mixing in units that counter units that huddle up densily? This shows that you've no concept of StarCraft 2 mate. I'll break it down. When a unit loses 1/3rd of it's damage and gains a bunch of movement speed instead...that's a huge nerf. Movement speed doesn't make up for 33% damage loss and we have examples of this in TvP; bio vs chargelots already. They are no longer a front line unit, they are too fast to keep together with supporting units, they can't tank worth a damn now and they kill stuff in 33% more time, provided you actively use the charge micro trick. Zerglings and Chargelots are not even close to comparable...Zerglings have Zerg production to swarm with them and you get 2 for the price of 1. Zealots to be comparable need a TON of gateways which only happens late game. Zealots are also twice the cost, twice the supply, etc...perhaps it's you who lacks understanding of StarCraft 2? Chargelots didn't counter bio, they contested it when the Terran moved out onto the map at 5 minutes with a 2 base allin... Just a thought here, maybe you shouldn't take such a rude tone when your understanding of the situation is...lacking to say the least. I am not sure if you are trolling but I really think you are wrong here. First, you have to show how you calculate that loss of dps.. I suspect you count only the first attack, but if the unit attacks more than once it looks very different, with the DPS drop being smaller for each hit. This is even if you used your double charge trick, which might lose out on a normal attack in the process. Also, if you have ever seen slowling vs speedling fights you would know that the time it takes for a unit to surround, retreat, chase or go from one target to the next matters a lot. Calculating actual damage output during a fight is much more complicated than just adding up the impact of the first attack... I don't troll here, I just have a very short patience span when it comes to elitism and hubris. Very, very short and if I see it, I will call a person out for it without getting into name calling or other silly childish acts. I counted the second attack, that's why it's a 33% damage nerf and not a 50% damage nerf. A lot of the time, Zeralots don't get more than 2 attacks off, they end up dying after throwing out 24 total damage, before upgrades are factored in that's why I don't count a Zeralot staying alive to deal more damage than charge+2 attacks, it's not realistic outside of specific low supply scenarios. Like Charge at 4:30 to counter a Marine Tank 2 base allin or something similar. It doesn't matter if chargelots can surround when they are too expensive to throw away and when they do get a surround, they just end up dying in a terribly inefficient trade anyhow. Especially since the speed means they'll end up auto engaging ahead of the army. You're constantly fighting your Zealots if you want to use them as a meat shield and not a runby skirmisher unit. So unless Zealots start costing 50 minerals and earl game, can be warped in sets of 2, there's no real comparison between the zealot and a zergling, even with the charge nerf. I mentioned Zerglings because the importance of the speed of melee units should be obvious in that scenario, not because I think they are the same. In ranged vs melee fights, one could argue that speed is even more important. Zealots alone are actually supposed to be mediocre vs stimmed bio with medivac support. Otherwise, there would be no incentive for protoss to tech up. Next time you see a dense marine ball, land a storm in the middle of it, have your faster zealots chase down the red bio and collect some Terran tears. Doesn't work like that. At all. Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk. Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle. When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step. So yeah, I disagree with you entirely. Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down. Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup. Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines.
Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem.
Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc.
This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units.
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On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 21:40 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 04:24 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 01:21 Shuffleblade wrote:On November 30 2019 11:09 BabelFish1 wrote:
Because feelings don't really matter much, what does matter is cold, hard logic.
So pros experience and opinion doesn't matter, got it. On November 30 2019 13:12 BabelFish1 wrote:
I dunno man, I've tried the new zealots vs bio and they're awful. Beasty did too and he thought they were awful. They die much, much faster now and bio actually does better by not kiting vs chargelots.
So you tried the units and YOU don't like them and therefore its the truth? Oh and also one pro actually agree with me so I must be right even if multiple other pros disagreeThe cold hard truth is that zealot charge overall was changed, not buffed not nerfed but changed. Zealots with charge are stronger in some situations and weaker in others. That means that if you expect them to work as well as before in all situations the problem actually lies with you. Use the unit in the ways that it is good now, instead of stubbornly trying to use it is the same as before and complain that it was changed as if you didn't know that. If terrans need to retreat from zealots they need to stim a lot harder than before and therefore lose more health and medivac energy. Your comment how terrans dont even need to micro against mass zealots now really makes you seem like you don't understand the concept of starcraft at all. If a zerg would rage because mass zerglings (fast but frail, kind of similar to current zealots) cant counter a dense bio ball with medivacs everyone would laugh at him. Throw in some banelings (tldr colossi, storm or disruptors) and that would look a hell of a lot different. If terran bio needs to be dense to counter chargelots how about mixing in units that counter units that huddle up densily? This shows that you've no concept of StarCraft 2 mate. I'll break it down. When a unit loses 1/3rd of it's damage and gains a bunch of movement speed instead...that's a huge nerf. Movement speed doesn't make up for 33% damage loss and we have examples of this in TvP; bio vs chargelots already. They are no longer a front line unit, they are too fast to keep together with supporting units, they can't tank worth a damn now and they kill stuff in 33% more time, provided you actively use the charge micro trick. Zerglings and Chargelots are not even close to comparable...Zerglings have Zerg production to swarm with them and you get 2 for the price of 1. Zealots to be comparable need a TON of gateways which only happens late game. Zealots are also twice the cost, twice the supply, etc...perhaps it's you who lacks understanding of StarCraft 2? Chargelots didn't counter bio, they contested it when the Terran moved out onto the map at 5 minutes with a 2 base allin... Just a thought here, maybe you shouldn't take such a rude tone when your understanding of the situation is...lacking to say the least. I am not sure if you are trolling but I really think you are wrong here. First, you have to show how you calculate that loss of dps.. I suspect you count only the first attack, but if the unit attacks more than once it looks very different, with the DPS drop being smaller for each hit. This is even if you used your double charge trick, which might lose out on a normal attack in the process. Also, if you have ever seen slowling vs speedling fights you would know that the time it takes for a unit to surround, retreat, chase or go from one target to the next matters a lot. Calculating actual damage output during a fight is much more complicated than just adding up the impact of the first attack... I don't troll here, I just have a very short patience span when it comes to elitism and hubris. Very, very short and if I see it, I will call a person out for it without getting into name calling or other silly childish acts. I counted the second attack, that's why it's a 33% damage nerf and not a 50% damage nerf. A lot of the time, Zeralots don't get more than 2 attacks off, they end up dying after throwing out 24 total damage, before upgrades are factored in that's why I don't count a Zeralot staying alive to deal more damage than charge+2 attacks, it's not realistic outside of specific low supply scenarios. Like Charge at 4:30 to counter a Marine Tank 2 base allin or something similar. It doesn't matter if chargelots can surround when they are too expensive to throw away and when they do get a surround, they just end up dying in a terribly inefficient trade anyhow. Especially since the speed means they'll end up auto engaging ahead of the army. You're constantly fighting your Zealots if you want to use them as a meat shield and not a runby skirmisher unit. So unless Zealots start costing 50 minerals and earl game, can be warped in sets of 2, there's no real comparison between the zealot and a zergling, even with the charge nerf. I mentioned Zerglings because the importance of the speed of melee units should be obvious in that scenario, not because I think they are the same. In ranged vs melee fights, one could argue that speed is even more important. Zealots alone are actually supposed to be mediocre vs stimmed bio with medivac support. Otherwise, there would be no incentive for protoss to tech up. Next time you see a dense marine ball, land a storm in the middle of it, have your faster zealots chase down the red bio and collect some Terran tears. Doesn't work like that. At all. Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk. Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle. When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step. So yeah, I disagree with you entirely. Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down. Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup. Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines. Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem. Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc. This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units.
Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play?
Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat.
Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots.
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On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 21:40 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 04:24 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 01:21 Shuffleblade wrote:On November 30 2019 11:09 BabelFish1 wrote:
Because feelings don't really matter much, what does matter is cold, hard logic.
So pros experience and opinion doesn't matter, got it. On November 30 2019 13:12 BabelFish1 wrote:
I dunno man, I've tried the new zealots vs bio and they're awful. Beasty did too and he thought they were awful. They die much, much faster now and bio actually does better by not kiting vs chargelots.
So you tried the units and YOU don't like them and therefore its the truth? Oh and also one pro actually agree with me so I must be right even if multiple other pros disagreeThe cold hard truth is that zealot charge overall was changed, not buffed not nerfed but changed. Zealots with charge are stronger in some situations and weaker in others. That means that if you expect them to work as well as before in all situations the problem actually lies with you. Use the unit in the ways that it is good now, instead of stubbornly trying to use it is the same as before and complain that it was changed as if you didn't know that. If terrans need to retreat from zealots they need to stim a lot harder than before and therefore lose more health and medivac energy. Your comment how terrans dont even need to micro against mass zealots now really makes you seem like you don't understand the concept of starcraft at all. If a zerg would rage because mass zerglings (fast but frail, kind of similar to current zealots) cant counter a dense bio ball with medivacs everyone would laugh at him. Throw in some banelings (tldr colossi, storm or disruptors) and that would look a hell of a lot different. If terran bio needs to be dense to counter chargelots how about mixing in units that counter units that huddle up densily? This shows that you've no concept of StarCraft 2 mate. I'll break it down. When a unit loses 1/3rd of it's damage and gains a bunch of movement speed instead...that's a huge nerf. Movement speed doesn't make up for 33% damage loss and we have examples of this in TvP; bio vs chargelots already. They are no longer a front line unit, they are too fast to keep together with supporting units, they can't tank worth a damn now and they kill stuff in 33% more time, provided you actively use the charge micro trick. Zerglings and Chargelots are not even close to comparable...Zerglings have Zerg production to swarm with them and you get 2 for the price of 1. Zealots to be comparable need a TON of gateways which only happens late game. Zealots are also twice the cost, twice the supply, etc...perhaps it's you who lacks understanding of StarCraft 2? Chargelots didn't counter bio, they contested it when the Terran moved out onto the map at 5 minutes with a 2 base allin... Just a thought here, maybe you shouldn't take such a rude tone when your understanding of the situation is...lacking to say the least. I am not sure if you are trolling but I really think you are wrong here. First, you have to show how you calculate that loss of dps.. I suspect you count only the first attack, but if the unit attacks more than once it looks very different, with the DPS drop being smaller for each hit. This is even if you used your double charge trick, which might lose out on a normal attack in the process. Also, if you have ever seen slowling vs speedling fights you would know that the time it takes for a unit to surround, retreat, chase or go from one target to the next matters a lot. Calculating actual damage output during a fight is much more complicated than just adding up the impact of the first attack... I don't troll here, I just have a very short patience span when it comes to elitism and hubris. Very, very short and if I see it, I will call a person out for it without getting into name calling or other silly childish acts. I counted the second attack, that's why it's a 33% damage nerf and not a 50% damage nerf. A lot of the time, Zeralots don't get more than 2 attacks off, they end up dying after throwing out 24 total damage, before upgrades are factored in that's why I don't count a Zeralot staying alive to deal more damage than charge+2 attacks, it's not realistic outside of specific low supply scenarios. Like Charge at 4:30 to counter a Marine Tank 2 base allin or something similar. It doesn't matter if chargelots can surround when they are too expensive to throw away and when they do get a surround, they just end up dying in a terribly inefficient trade anyhow. Especially since the speed means they'll end up auto engaging ahead of the army. You're constantly fighting your Zealots if you want to use them as a meat shield and not a runby skirmisher unit. So unless Zealots start costing 50 minerals and earl game, can be warped in sets of 2, there's no real comparison between the zealot and a zergling, even with the charge nerf. I mentioned Zerglings because the importance of the speed of melee units should be obvious in that scenario, not because I think they are the same. In ranged vs melee fights, one could argue that speed is even more important. Zealots alone are actually supposed to be mediocre vs stimmed bio with medivac support. Otherwise, there would be no incentive for protoss to tech up. Next time you see a dense marine ball, land a storm in the middle of it, have your faster zealots chase down the red bio and collect some Terran tears. Doesn't work like that. At all. Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk. Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle. When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step. So yeah, I disagree with you entirely. Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down. Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup. Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines. Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem. Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc. This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units. Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play? Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat. Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots.
Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such.
Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots.
I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up.
As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions.
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On December 02 2019 11:25 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 21:40 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 04:24 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 01:21 Shuffleblade wrote:
[quote]
So pros experience and opinion doesn't matter, got it.
[quote]
So you tried the units and YOU don't like them and therefore its the truth? Oh and also one pro actually agree with me so I must be right even if multiple other pros disagree
The cold hard truth is that zealot charge overall was changed, not buffed not nerfed but changed. Zealots with charge are stronger in some situations and weaker in others. That means that if you expect them to work as well as before in all situations the problem actually lies with you. Use the unit in the ways that it is good now, instead of stubbornly trying to use it is the same as before and complain that it was changed as if you didn't know that.
If terrans need to retreat from zealots they need to stim a lot harder than before and therefore lose more health and medivac energy. Your comment how terrans dont even need to micro against mass zealots now really makes you seem like you don't understand the concept of starcraft at all. If a zerg would rage because mass zerglings (fast but frail, kind of similar to current zealots) cant counter a dense bio ball with medivacs everyone would laugh at him. Throw in some banelings (tldr colossi, storm or disruptors) and that would look a hell of a lot different. If terran bio needs to be dense to counter chargelots how about mixing in units that counter units that huddle up densily?
This shows that you've no concept of StarCraft 2 mate. I'll break it down. When a unit loses 1/3rd of it's damage and gains a bunch of movement speed instead...that's a huge nerf. Movement speed doesn't make up for 33% damage loss and we have examples of this in TvP; bio vs chargelots already. They are no longer a front line unit, they are too fast to keep together with supporting units, they can't tank worth a damn now and they kill stuff in 33% more time, provided you actively use the charge micro trick. Zerglings and Chargelots are not even close to comparable...Zerglings have Zerg production to swarm with them and you get 2 for the price of 1. Zealots to be comparable need a TON of gateways which only happens late game. Zealots are also twice the cost, twice the supply, etc...perhaps it's you who lacks understanding of StarCraft 2? Chargelots didn't counter bio, they contested it when the Terran moved out onto the map at 5 minutes with a 2 base allin... Just a thought here, maybe you shouldn't take such a rude tone when your understanding of the situation is...lacking to say the least. I am not sure if you are trolling but I really think you are wrong here. First, you have to show how you calculate that loss of dps.. I suspect you count only the first attack, but if the unit attacks more than once it looks very different, with the DPS drop being smaller for each hit. This is even if you used your double charge trick, which might lose out on a normal attack in the process. Also, if you have ever seen slowling vs speedling fights you would know that the time it takes for a unit to surround, retreat, chase or go from one target to the next matters a lot. Calculating actual damage output during a fight is much more complicated than just adding up the impact of the first attack... I don't troll here, I just have a very short patience span when it comes to elitism and hubris. Very, very short and if I see it, I will call a person out for it without getting into name calling or other silly childish acts. I counted the second attack, that's why it's a 33% damage nerf and not a 50% damage nerf. A lot of the time, Zeralots don't get more than 2 attacks off, they end up dying after throwing out 24 total damage, before upgrades are factored in that's why I don't count a Zeralot staying alive to deal more damage than charge+2 attacks, it's not realistic outside of specific low supply scenarios. Like Charge at 4:30 to counter a Marine Tank 2 base allin or something similar. It doesn't matter if chargelots can surround when they are too expensive to throw away and when they do get a surround, they just end up dying in a terribly inefficient trade anyhow. Especially since the speed means they'll end up auto engaging ahead of the army. You're constantly fighting your Zealots if you want to use them as a meat shield and not a runby skirmisher unit. So unless Zealots start costing 50 minerals and earl game, can be warped in sets of 2, there's no real comparison between the zealot and a zergling, even with the charge nerf. I mentioned Zerglings because the importance of the speed of melee units should be obvious in that scenario, not because I think they are the same. In ranged vs melee fights, one could argue that speed is even more important. Zealots alone are actually supposed to be mediocre vs stimmed bio with medivac support. Otherwise, there would be no incentive for protoss to tech up. Next time you see a dense marine ball, land a storm in the middle of it, have your faster zealots chase down the red bio and collect some Terran tears. Doesn't work like that. At all. Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk. Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle. When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step. So yeah, I disagree with you entirely. Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down. Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup. Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines. Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem. Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc. This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units. Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play? Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat. Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots. Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such. Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots. I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions.
There's a reason not a single terran pro goes hellbats, it's not like they're busy making excuses. It's just inefficient, and they die too easily to other units. Pull back your zealots for 5 seconds and every hellbat will be melted by collosi or disruptors or storm or stalkers or immortals and then they're gone. Mines go off in an instant, and start off invisible, they're a great way to fight against mass chargelots and are used until you start transitioning to lategame.
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Northern Ireland12020 Posts
On December 02 2019 11:25 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 21:40 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 04:24 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 01:21 Shuffleblade wrote:
[quote]
So pros experience and opinion doesn't matter, got it.
[quote]
So you tried the units and YOU don't like them and therefore its the truth? Oh and also one pro actually agree with me so I must be right even if multiple other pros disagree
The cold hard truth is that zealot charge overall was changed, not buffed not nerfed but changed. Zealots with charge are stronger in some situations and weaker in others. That means that if you expect them to work as well as before in all situations the problem actually lies with you. Use the unit in the ways that it is good now, instead of stubbornly trying to use it is the same as before and complain that it was changed as if you didn't know that.
If terrans need to retreat from zealots they need to stim a lot harder than before and therefore lose more health and medivac energy. Your comment how terrans dont even need to micro against mass zealots now really makes you seem like you don't understand the concept of starcraft at all. If a zerg would rage because mass zerglings (fast but frail, kind of similar to current zealots) cant counter a dense bio ball with medivacs everyone would laugh at him. Throw in some banelings (tldr colossi, storm or disruptors) and that would look a hell of a lot different. If terran bio needs to be dense to counter chargelots how about mixing in units that counter units that huddle up densily?
This shows that you've no concept of StarCraft 2 mate. I'll break it down. When a unit loses 1/3rd of it's damage and gains a bunch of movement speed instead...that's a huge nerf. Movement speed doesn't make up for 33% damage loss and we have examples of this in TvP; bio vs chargelots already. They are no longer a front line unit, they are too fast to keep together with supporting units, they can't tank worth a damn now and they kill stuff in 33% more time, provided you actively use the charge micro trick. Zerglings and Chargelots are not even close to comparable...Zerglings have Zerg production to swarm with them and you get 2 for the price of 1. Zealots to be comparable need a TON of gateways which only happens late game. Zealots are also twice the cost, twice the supply, etc...perhaps it's you who lacks understanding of StarCraft 2? Chargelots didn't counter bio, they contested it when the Terran moved out onto the map at 5 minutes with a 2 base allin... Just a thought here, maybe you shouldn't take such a rude tone when your understanding of the situation is...lacking to say the least. I am not sure if you are trolling but I really think you are wrong here. First, you have to show how you calculate that loss of dps.. I suspect you count only the first attack, but if the unit attacks more than once it looks very different, with the DPS drop being smaller for each hit. This is even if you used your double charge trick, which might lose out on a normal attack in the process. Also, if you have ever seen slowling vs speedling fights you would know that the time it takes for a unit to surround, retreat, chase or go from one target to the next matters a lot. Calculating actual damage output during a fight is much more complicated than just adding up the impact of the first attack... I don't troll here, I just have a very short patience span when it comes to elitism and hubris. Very, very short and if I see it, I will call a person out for it without getting into name calling or other silly childish acts. I counted the second attack, that's why it's a 33% damage nerf and not a 50% damage nerf. A lot of the time, Zeralots don't get more than 2 attacks off, they end up dying after throwing out 24 total damage, before upgrades are factored in that's why I don't count a Zeralot staying alive to deal more damage than charge+2 attacks, it's not realistic outside of specific low supply scenarios. Like Charge at 4:30 to counter a Marine Tank 2 base allin or something similar. It doesn't matter if chargelots can surround when they are too expensive to throw away and when they do get a surround, they just end up dying in a terribly inefficient trade anyhow. Especially since the speed means they'll end up auto engaging ahead of the army. You're constantly fighting your Zealots if you want to use them as a meat shield and not a runby skirmisher unit. So unless Zealots start costing 50 minerals and earl game, can be warped in sets of 2, there's no real comparison between the zealot and a zergling, even with the charge nerf. I mentioned Zerglings because the importance of the speed of melee units should be obvious in that scenario, not because I think they are the same. In ranged vs melee fights, one could argue that speed is even more important. Zealots alone are actually supposed to be mediocre vs stimmed bio with medivac support. Otherwise, there would be no incentive for protoss to tech up. Next time you see a dense marine ball, land a storm in the middle of it, have your faster zealots chase down the red bio and collect some Terran tears. Doesn't work like that. At all. Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk. Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle. When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step. So yeah, I disagree with you entirely. Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down. Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup. Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines. Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem. Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc. This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units. Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play? Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat. Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots. Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such. Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots. I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions.
I just don’t think they’re very good for a variety of reasons.
Protoss pump chronoed upgrades in that matchup from 2 forges often-times so those leads are huge on a second upgrade tree.
Trades are pretty common, if you’re constantly trying to rebuild hellbats it just feels a bit awkward. They’re terrible against a lot of other Protoss stuff so you don’t want too many, you want an optimal amount to counter charge lots, no more and no less.
I could certainly see hellbats being good when built into a timing attack, or preparing for a Protoss timing for sure and you squeeze out a certain number as a buffer. I’m just not sure how good they would be in a more back-and-forth game when you’re trading, especially when directly compared to widow mines where 1-2 can still be useful and they have other uses such as in base defence too.
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On December 02 2019 18:49 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2019 11:25 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 21:40 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 04:24 BabelFish1 wrote:
[quote]
This shows that you've no concept of StarCraft 2 mate. I'll break it down.
When a unit loses 1/3rd of it's damage and gains a bunch of movement speed instead...that's a huge nerf. Movement speed doesn't make up for 33% damage loss and we have examples of this in TvP; bio vs chargelots already. They are no longer a front line unit, they are too fast to keep together with supporting units, they can't tank worth a damn now and they kill stuff in 33% more time, provided you actively use the charge micro trick.
Zerglings and Chargelots are not even close to comparable...Zerglings have Zerg production to swarm with them and you get 2 for the price of 1. Zealots to be comparable need a TON of gateways which only happens late game. Zealots are also twice the cost, twice the supply, etc...perhaps it's you who lacks understanding of StarCraft 2?
Chargelots didn't counter bio, they contested it when the Terran moved out onto the map at 5 minutes with a 2 base allin...
Just a thought here, maybe you shouldn't take such a rude tone when your understanding of the situation is...lacking to say the least. I am not sure if you are trolling but I really think you are wrong here. First, you have to show how you calculate that loss of dps.. I suspect you count only the first attack, but if the unit attacks more than once it looks very different, with the DPS drop being smaller for each hit. This is even if you used your double charge trick, which might lose out on a normal attack in the process. Also, if you have ever seen slowling vs speedling fights you would know that the time it takes for a unit to surround, retreat, chase or go from one target to the next matters a lot. Calculating actual damage output during a fight is much more complicated than just adding up the impact of the first attack... I don't troll here, I just have a very short patience span when it comes to elitism and hubris. Very, very short and if I see it, I will call a person out for it without getting into name calling or other silly childish acts. I counted the second attack, that's why it's a 33% damage nerf and not a 50% damage nerf. A lot of the time, Zeralots don't get more than 2 attacks off, they end up dying after throwing out 24 total damage, before upgrades are factored in that's why I don't count a Zeralot staying alive to deal more damage than charge+2 attacks, it's not realistic outside of specific low supply scenarios. Like Charge at 4:30 to counter a Marine Tank 2 base allin or something similar. It doesn't matter if chargelots can surround when they are too expensive to throw away and when they do get a surround, they just end up dying in a terribly inefficient trade anyhow. Especially since the speed means they'll end up auto engaging ahead of the army. You're constantly fighting your Zealots if you want to use them as a meat shield and not a runby skirmisher unit. So unless Zealots start costing 50 minerals and earl game, can be warped in sets of 2, there's no real comparison between the zealot and a zergling, even with the charge nerf. I mentioned Zerglings because the importance of the speed of melee units should be obvious in that scenario, not because I think they are the same. In ranged vs melee fights, one could argue that speed is even more important. Zealots alone are actually supposed to be mediocre vs stimmed bio with medivac support. Otherwise, there would be no incentive for protoss to tech up. Next time you see a dense marine ball, land a storm in the middle of it, have your faster zealots chase down the red bio and collect some Terran tears. Doesn't work like that. At all. Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk. Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle. When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step. So yeah, I disagree with you entirely. Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down. Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup. Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines. Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem. Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc. This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units. Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play? Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat. Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots. Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such. Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots. I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions. I just don’t think they’re very good for a variety of reasons. Protoss pump chronoed upgrades in that matchup from 2 forges often-times so those leads are huge on a second upgrade tree. Trades are pretty common, if you’re constantly trying to rebuild hellbats it just feels a bit awkward. They’re terrible against a lot of other Protoss stuff so you don’t want too many, you want an optimal amount to counter charge lots, no more and no less. I could certainly see hellbats being good when built into a timing attack, or preparing for a Protoss timing for sure and you squeeze out a certain number as a buffer. I’m just not sure how good they would be in a more back-and-forth game when you’re trading, especially when directly compared to widow mines where 1-2 can still be useful and they have other uses such as in base defence too.
The worst thing about hellbats is they're slow AF. Give them the stimpack upgrade and we can talk. Or, you know, return firebatmans?  (or add flame upgrade on the marauder and ability to switch their mode from slow to firebats)
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United Kingdom19650 Posts
Protoss pump chronoed upgrades in that matchup from 2 forges often-times so those leads are huge on a second upgrade tree.
That was a common complaint a while back, but Protoss upgrades now take a lot longer than T/Z upgrades. It takes a substantial percentage of chronoboost to equalize them and focusing even more still on chrono upgrades to pull ahead means making major investment&sacrifices.
If you look at games closely you'll usually see that P with an upgrade lead got there because they put forge/s down before engineering bays or evo's, not because the upgrades were faster.
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Northern Ireland12020 Posts
On December 02 2019 19:21 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Protoss pump chronoed upgrades in that matchup from 2 forges often-times so those leads are huge on a second upgrade tree. That was a common complaint a while back, but Protoss upgrades now take a lot longer than T/Z upgrades. It takes a substantial percentage of chronoboost to equalize them and focusing even more still on chrono upgrades to pull ahead means making major investment&sacrifices. If you look at games closely you'll usually see that P with an upgrade lead got there because they put forge/s down before engineering bays or evo's, not because the upgrades were faster.
Yes that is true, but I mean that’s more what Protoss do in the matchup, so any splitting of your own upgrades is that much more of a factor.
There probably isn’t a matchup focused strategically quite so much on upgrades as Protoss play vs Terran out of all the matchups. Indeed that’s why the nerfs occurred in the first place, because Protoss put so much focus on it and have the chronoboost mechanic to help further.
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On December 02 2019 19:21 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Protoss pump chronoed upgrades in that matchup from 2 forges often-times so those leads are huge on a second upgrade tree. That was a common complaint a while back, but Protoss upgrades now take a lot longer than T/Z upgrades. It takes a substantial percentage of chronoboost to equalize them and focusing even more still on chrono upgrades to pull ahead means making major investment&sacrifices. If you look at games closely you'll usually see that P with an upgrade lead got there because they put forge/s down before engineering bays or evo's, not because the upgrades were faster.
I think this is prity much right often it’s easier for p to squeeze in 1 forge earlier but they can’t get the upgrade lead they used to.
In TvP I tend to see toss have the faster +1 attack but Terran with a faster 1/1 upgrade. I think it’s a good interplay just because of how tvp functions the match is at its best when these kind of swings exist where Terran is strong then toss is strong then Terran is strong ect.
I’m not sure how ballance is yet but there’s a lot better interplay and timing windows now with the changes that have been made so games are more back and fourth which is more interesting at least.
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On December 02 2019 16:09 serendipitous wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2019 11:25 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 21:40 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 04:24 BabelFish1 wrote:
[quote]
This shows that you've no concept of StarCraft 2 mate. I'll break it down.
When a unit loses 1/3rd of it's damage and gains a bunch of movement speed instead...that's a huge nerf. Movement speed doesn't make up for 33% damage loss and we have examples of this in TvP; bio vs chargelots already. They are no longer a front line unit, they are too fast to keep together with supporting units, they can't tank worth a damn now and they kill stuff in 33% more time, provided you actively use the charge micro trick.
Zerglings and Chargelots are not even close to comparable...Zerglings have Zerg production to swarm with them and you get 2 for the price of 1. Zealots to be comparable need a TON of gateways which only happens late game. Zealots are also twice the cost, twice the supply, etc...perhaps it's you who lacks understanding of StarCraft 2?
Chargelots didn't counter bio, they contested it when the Terran moved out onto the map at 5 minutes with a 2 base allin...
Just a thought here, maybe you shouldn't take such a rude tone when your understanding of the situation is...lacking to say the least. I am not sure if you are trolling but I really think you are wrong here. First, you have to show how you calculate that loss of dps.. I suspect you count only the first attack, but if the unit attacks more than once it looks very different, with the DPS drop being smaller for each hit. This is even if you used your double charge trick, which might lose out on a normal attack in the process. Also, if you have ever seen slowling vs speedling fights you would know that the time it takes for a unit to surround, retreat, chase or go from one target to the next matters a lot. Calculating actual damage output during a fight is much more complicated than just adding up the impact of the first attack... I don't troll here, I just have a very short patience span when it comes to elitism and hubris. Very, very short and if I see it, I will call a person out for it without getting into name calling or other silly childish acts. I counted the second attack, that's why it's a 33% damage nerf and not a 50% damage nerf. A lot of the time, Zeralots don't get more than 2 attacks off, they end up dying after throwing out 24 total damage, before upgrades are factored in that's why I don't count a Zeralot staying alive to deal more damage than charge+2 attacks, it's not realistic outside of specific low supply scenarios. Like Charge at 4:30 to counter a Marine Tank 2 base allin or something similar. It doesn't matter if chargelots can surround when they are too expensive to throw away and when they do get a surround, they just end up dying in a terribly inefficient trade anyhow. Especially since the speed means they'll end up auto engaging ahead of the army. You're constantly fighting your Zealots if you want to use them as a meat shield and not a runby skirmisher unit. So unless Zealots start costing 50 minerals and earl game, can be warped in sets of 2, there's no real comparison between the zealot and a zergling, even with the charge nerf. I mentioned Zerglings because the importance of the speed of melee units should be obvious in that scenario, not because I think they are the same. In ranged vs melee fights, one could argue that speed is even more important. Zealots alone are actually supposed to be mediocre vs stimmed bio with medivac support. Otherwise, there would be no incentive for protoss to tech up. Next time you see a dense marine ball, land a storm in the middle of it, have your faster zealots chase down the red bio and collect some Terran tears. Doesn't work like that. At all. Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk. Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle. When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step. So yeah, I disagree with you entirely. Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down. Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup. Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines. Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem. Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc. This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units. Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play? Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat. Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots. Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such. Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots. I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions. There's a reason not a single terran pro goes hellbats, it's not like they're busy making excuses. It's just inefficient, and they die too easily to other units. Pull back your zealots for 5 seconds and every hellbat will be melted by collosi or disruptors or storm or stalkers or immortals and then they're gone. Mines go off in an instant, and start off invisible, they're a great way to fight against mass chargelots and are used until you start transitioning to lategame.
This is where you need to think things through. Why would you field hellbats when it isn't a chargelot heavy composition? If there's Colossus, it's either late game or it's a fast colossus build.
If you scout mass chargelots,you adapt. If you don't, if you think 8 hellbats is going to make bio somehow bad, that's on you. The point of the hellbat isn't to trade efficiently, it's to soak the initial hit, deal a bunch of damage and then die so your bio can live...if Colossus or any type of splash got out, then your window for smashing chargelots has probably closed if you insist on using bio and you'll need to siege up with libs, emp blanket and all that fun stuff. But until then, if you scout mass chargelot and you don't get some Hellbats, you screwed up. And yes, a lot of Terran pros need to learn this.
So again, less excuses, more adapting!
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On December 02 2019 19:21 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Protoss pump chronoed upgrades in that matchup from 2 forges often-times so those leads are huge on a second upgrade tree. That was a common complaint a while back, but Protoss upgrades now take a lot longer than T/Z upgrades. It takes a substantial percentage of chronoboost to equalize them and focusing even more still on chrono upgrades to pull ahead means making major investment&sacrifices. If you look at games closely you'll usually see that P with an upgrade lead got there because they put forge/s down before engineering bays or evo's, not because the upgrades were faster.
That's a very good point.
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Northern Ireland12020 Posts
On December 03 2019 03:28 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2019 16:09 serendipitous wrote:On December 02 2019 11:25 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 21:40 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:
[quote]
I am not sure if you are trolling but I really think you are wrong here. First, you have to show how you calculate that loss of dps.. I suspect you count only the first attack, but if the unit attacks more than once it looks very different, with the DPS drop being smaller for each hit. This is even if you used your double charge trick, which might lose out on a normal attack in the process.
Also, if you have ever seen slowling vs speedling fights you would know that the time it takes for a unit to surround, retreat, chase or go from one target to the next matters a lot.
Calculating actual damage output during a fight is much more complicated than just adding up the impact of the first attack...
I don't troll here, I just have a very short patience span when it comes to elitism and hubris. Very, very short and if I see it, I will call a person out for it without getting into name calling or other silly childish acts. I counted the second attack, that's why it's a 33% damage nerf and not a 50% damage nerf. A lot of the time, Zeralots don't get more than 2 attacks off, they end up dying after throwing out 24 total damage, before upgrades are factored in that's why I don't count a Zeralot staying alive to deal more damage than charge+2 attacks, it's not realistic outside of specific low supply scenarios. Like Charge at 4:30 to counter a Marine Tank 2 base allin or something similar. It doesn't matter if chargelots can surround when they are too expensive to throw away and when they do get a surround, they just end up dying in a terribly inefficient trade anyhow. Especially since the speed means they'll end up auto engaging ahead of the army. You're constantly fighting your Zealots if you want to use them as a meat shield and not a runby skirmisher unit. So unless Zealots start costing 50 minerals and earl game, can be warped in sets of 2, there's no real comparison between the zealot and a zergling, even with the charge nerf. I mentioned Zerglings because the importance of the speed of melee units should be obvious in that scenario, not because I think they are the same. In ranged vs melee fights, one could argue that speed is even more important. Zealots alone are actually supposed to be mediocre vs stimmed bio with medivac support. Otherwise, there would be no incentive for protoss to tech up. Next time you see a dense marine ball, land a storm in the middle of it, have your faster zealots chase down the red bio and collect some Terran tears. Doesn't work like that. At all. Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk. Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle. When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step. So yeah, I disagree with you entirely. Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down. Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup. Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines. Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem. Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc. This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units. Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play? Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat. Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots. Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such. Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots. I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions. There's a reason not a single terran pro goes hellbats, it's not like they're busy making excuses. It's just inefficient, and they die too easily to other units. Pull back your zealots for 5 seconds and every hellbat will be melted by collosi or disruptors or storm or stalkers or immortals and then they're gone. Mines go off in an instant, and start off invisible, they're a great way to fight against mass chargelots and are used until you start transitioning to lategame. This is where you need to think things through. Why would you field hellbats when it isn't a chargelot heavy composition? If there's Colossus, it's either late game or it's a fast colossus build. If you scout mass chargelots,you adapt. If you don't, if you think 8 hellbats is going to make bio somehow bad, that's on you. The point of the hellbat isn't to trade efficiently, it's to soak the initial hit, deal a bunch of damage and then die so your bio can live...if Colossus or any type of splash got out, then your window for smashing chargelots has probably closed if you insist on using bio and you'll need to siege up with libs, emp blanket and all that fun stuff. But until then, if you scout mass chargelot and you don't get some Hellbats, you screwed up. And yes, a lot of Terran pros need to learn this. So again, less excuses, more adapting!
Perhaps it does work well up to a point on ladder for sure, I don’t refer to pros as evidence anything is bad, I don’t see how they’re better than the other factory options for supporting bio though. Mines do pretty brutal splash and also are useful defensively, tanks give long range zoning splash and this is useful both defensively or in gradually pushing. Neither of these really cares hugely for armoury upgrades either which is nice.
Hellbats are slow and get zoned by other Protoss units, although they’re good against Zealots specifically.
They would situationally be really good I’m just not sure you can force a game to fit those situations.
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On December 03 2019 04:09 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2019 03:28 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 16:09 serendipitous wrote:On December 02 2019 11:25 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 21:40 Slydie wrote:On December 01 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:
[quote]
I don't troll here, I just have a very short patience span when it comes to elitism and hubris. Very, very short and if I see it, I will call a person out for it without getting into name calling or other silly childish acts.
I counted the second attack, that's why it's a 33% damage nerf and not a 50% damage nerf. A lot of the time, Zeralots don't get more than 2 attacks off, they end up dying after throwing out 24 total damage, before upgrades are factored in that's why I don't count a Zeralot staying alive to deal more damage than charge+2 attacks, it's not realistic outside of specific low supply scenarios. Like Charge at 4:30 to counter a Marine Tank 2 base allin or something similar.
It doesn't matter if chargelots can surround when they are too expensive to throw away and when they do get a surround, they just end up dying in a terribly inefficient trade anyhow. Especially since the speed means they'll end up auto engaging ahead of the army. You're constantly fighting your Zealots if you want to use them as a meat shield and not a runby skirmisher unit. So unless Zealots start costing 50 minerals and earl game, can be warped in sets of 2, there's no real comparison between the zealot and a zergling, even with the charge nerf.
I mentioned Zerglings because the importance of the speed of melee units should be obvious in that scenario, not because I think they are the same. In ranged vs melee fights, one could argue that speed is even more important. Zealots alone are actually supposed to be mediocre vs stimmed bio with medivac support. Otherwise, there would be no incentive for protoss to tech up. Next time you see a dense marine ball, land a storm in the middle of it, have your faster zealots chase down the red bio and collect some Terran tears. Doesn't work like that. At all. Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk. Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle. When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step. So yeah, I disagree with you entirely. Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down. Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup. Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines. Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem. Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc. This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units. Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play? Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat. Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots. Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such. Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots. I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions. There's a reason not a single terran pro goes hellbats, it's not like they're busy making excuses. It's just inefficient, and they die too easily to other units. Pull back your zealots for 5 seconds and every hellbat will be melted by collosi or disruptors or storm or stalkers or immortals and then they're gone. Mines go off in an instant, and start off invisible, they're a great way to fight against mass chargelots and are used until you start transitioning to lategame. This is where you need to think things through. Why would you field hellbats when it isn't a chargelot heavy composition? If there's Colossus, it's either late game or it's a fast colossus build. If you scout mass chargelots,you adapt. If you don't, if you think 8 hellbats is going to make bio somehow bad, that's on you. The point of the hellbat isn't to trade efficiently, it's to soak the initial hit, deal a bunch of damage and then die so your bio can live...if Colossus or any type of splash got out, then your window for smashing chargelots has probably closed if you insist on using bio and you'll need to siege up with libs, emp blanket and all that fun stuff. But until then, if you scout mass chargelot and you don't get some Hellbats, you screwed up. And yes, a lot of Terran pros need to learn this. So again, less excuses, more adapting! Perhaps it does work well up to a point on ladder for sure, I don’t refer to pros as evidence anything is bad, I don’t see how they’re better than the other factory options for supporting bio though. Mines do pretty brutal splash and also are useful defensively, tanks give long range zoning splash and this is useful both defensively or in gradually pushing. Neither of these really cares hugely for armoury upgrades either which is nice. Hellbats are slow and get zoned by other Protoss units, although they’re good against Zealots specifically. They would situationally be really good I’m just not sure you can force a game to fit those situations.
The amount of times I've seen a Terran get rekt by their own Widow Mines because they thought going bio mine vs chargelots was a good idea is mind numbing. If the Protoss has a brain, they will use that friendly fire to gib your own units regularly. I'd argue that outside of a few stray mines in chokes around the map, mines are one of the worst units to use vs Protoss right now (in battle, they still rock for harass). Especially with new charge.
Very specifically vs chargelots, you're better off getting 8 Hellbats. If it's not mass chargelots or if they transitioned, then the 8 Hellbats aren't going to do anything because as you pointed out, they get rekt by splash damage and basically everything not named Zealot or Adept.
It's just a very strong counter to charge allins. Be in ones on the current patch or the previous one.
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Northern Ireland12020 Posts
On December 03 2019 07:08 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2019 04:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 03 2019 03:28 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 16:09 serendipitous wrote:On December 02 2019 11:25 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 01 2019 21:40 Slydie wrote:
[quote]
I mentioned Zerglings because the importance of the speed of melee units should be obvious in that scenario, not because I think they are the same.
In ranged vs melee fights, one could argue that speed is even more important.
Zealots alone are actually supposed to be mediocre vs stimmed bio with medivac support. Otherwise, there would be no incentive for protoss to tech up. Next time you see a dense marine ball, land a storm in the middle of it, have your faster zealots chase down the red bio and collect some Terran tears. Doesn't work like that. At all. Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk. Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle. When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step. So yeah, I disagree with you entirely. Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down. Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup. Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines. Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem. Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc. This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units. Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play? Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat. Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots. Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such. Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots. I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions. There's a reason not a single terran pro goes hellbats, it's not like they're busy making excuses. It's just inefficient, and they die too easily to other units. Pull back your zealots for 5 seconds and every hellbat will be melted by collosi or disruptors or storm or stalkers or immortals and then they're gone. Mines go off in an instant, and start off invisible, they're a great way to fight against mass chargelots and are used until you start transitioning to lategame. This is where you need to think things through. Why would you field hellbats when it isn't a chargelot heavy composition? If there's Colossus, it's either late game or it's a fast colossus build. If you scout mass chargelots,you adapt. If you don't, if you think 8 hellbats is going to make bio somehow bad, that's on you. The point of the hellbat isn't to trade efficiently, it's to soak the initial hit, deal a bunch of damage and then die so your bio can live...if Colossus or any type of splash got out, then your window for smashing chargelots has probably closed if you insist on using bio and you'll need to siege up with libs, emp blanket and all that fun stuff. But until then, if you scout mass chargelot and you don't get some Hellbats, you screwed up. And yes, a lot of Terran pros need to learn this. So again, less excuses, more adapting! Perhaps it does work well up to a point on ladder for sure, I don’t refer to pros as evidence anything is bad, I don’t see how they’re better than the other factory options for supporting bio though. Mines do pretty brutal splash and also are useful defensively, tanks give long range zoning splash and this is useful both defensively or in gradually pushing. Neither of these really cares hugely for armoury upgrades either which is nice. Hellbats are slow and get zoned by other Protoss units, although they’re good against Zealots specifically. They would situationally be really good I’m just not sure you can force a game to fit those situations. The amount of times I've seen a Terran get rekt by their own Widow Mines because they thought going bio mine vs chargelots was a good idea is mind numbing. If the Protoss has a brain, they will use that friendly fire to gib your own units regularly. I'd argue that outside of a few stray mines in chokes around the map, mines are one of the worst units to use vs Protoss right now (in battle, they still rock for harass). Especially with new charge. Very specifically vs chargelots, you're better off getting 8 Hellbats. If it's not mass chargelots or if they transitioned, then the 8 Hellbats aren't going to do anything because as you pointed out, they get rekt by splash damage and basically everything not named Zealot or Adept. It's just a very strong counter to charge allins. Be in ones on the current patch or the previous one.
I could see it working really well against charge allins defensively for sure because the Hellbat’s relative slowness isn’t a factor when the Zealots are charging into your position.
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On December 03 2019 07:18 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2019 07:08 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 03 2019 04:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 03 2019 03:28 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 16:09 serendipitous wrote:On December 02 2019 11:25 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 09:24 washikie wrote:On December 02 2019 07:01 BabelFish1 wrote:On December 02 2019 05:11 Slydie wrote:On December 02 2019 04:13 BabelFish1 wrote:
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Doesn't work like that. At all.
Bio doesn't stand in storms until it's red unless the Terran is afk.
Chargelots never countered MMM unless you had an upgrade lead, it was early and it was a low supply battle.
When there is no upgrade lead, MMM can now stand still and kill chargelots whereas before, it had to stutter step.
So yeah, I disagree with you entirely.
Also, massing MMM vs things that do well against it is idiotic and a bad game mechanic. We don't need the days of every Terran going bio vs their counters back. That was brain dead muscle memory play and was very bad for sc2. Get 8 Hellions or Hellbats, replace them when they soak the chargelot charge and laugh as the chargelots all die as they pile into Hellbat AoE while bio stims them down. Viable mech play would be very interesting but your post does not really make sense. Terrans usually go some reaper/tech opening into some stim/medivac push with or without tanks. From that point, protoss has some very scary 3base timings, and Terran can NOT rely on "massing bio vs things that counter it" as you say. Mines, Ghosts, Vikings or liberators need to be added, depending on the toss composition. I honestly think the dynamic of the matchup is fine, although I feel Protoss has more options to find something fitting their style in the matchup. Helbats melt to any protoss aoe, can't escape and only counters zealots. There are good reasons why they are only seen in mech tvp. The best chargelots counter which is actually used is mines. Well, if you refuse to use the tools given to you that can help with things like chargelots, then that's a you problem. Getting 8 Hellbats isn't mech. That's 800 minerals to nullify 800+minerals of chargelots and if it's late enough where splash is a big deal, then you should have several options to handle chargelots. Like mines, Liberators, EMP, etc. This is what literally pisses me off about the Terran playerbase. Instead of adapting, there's always some excuse. Always a reason why you're incapable of using counter units. Have you ever played Terran at a reasonable level of of play? Mixing in hellbats with bio outside of a few niche tvz allins is just not that viable. Primarily due to economics. Terran going bio has excess gas and almost no excess minerals. Trying to make a mineral only support unit that gets no benifit from your upgrades is just bad. There are very good reasons why you don’t see this happen. I’m curious what level of play you are at if you actually think this would be a good strat. Widow mines on the other hand work prity well vs zealots so sometime you see Terran make them but with the stealth behind an upgrade nerf they got awhile back they prity much only help vs zealots and for drops so you don’t really see them as a support unit unless Terran knows thier opponent is very committed to chargelots. Define decent. I top out at M2 when I bring my A game. Usually I sit at around D1 or M3, depending on the meta and such. Mines are very risky vs Chargelots if you keep mines by bio. Chargelots drag mine fire into your bio and that hurts so much more than throwing away 3 Zealots to ensure the dragging happens. People severely underestimate how good Hellbats are vs Chargelots. I know bio is somewhat starved for minerals...but if you refuse to build counter units, then I don't know man. It's crazy that you think 800 minerals over 90-120 seconds is going to somehow make bio bad...and I really think it's a problem a lot of Terran mains share, too many excuses, not enough building the appropriate units and then pushback when someone suggests they slightly change things up. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of Neuro's attitude; less excuses, more finding solutions. There's a reason not a single terran pro goes hellbats, it's not like they're busy making excuses. It's just inefficient, and they die too easily to other units. Pull back your zealots for 5 seconds and every hellbat will be melted by collosi or disruptors or storm or stalkers or immortals and then they're gone. Mines go off in an instant, and start off invisible, they're a great way to fight against mass chargelots and are used until you start transitioning to lategame. This is where you need to think things through. Why would you field hellbats when it isn't a chargelot heavy composition? If there's Colossus, it's either late game or it's a fast colossus build. If you scout mass chargelots,you adapt. If you don't, if you think 8 hellbats is going to make bio somehow bad, that's on you. The point of the hellbat isn't to trade efficiently, it's to soak the initial hit, deal a bunch of damage and then die so your bio can live...if Colossus or any type of splash got out, then your window for smashing chargelots has probably closed if you insist on using bio and you'll need to siege up with libs, emp blanket and all that fun stuff. But until then, if you scout mass chargelot and you don't get some Hellbats, you screwed up. And yes, a lot of Terran pros need to learn this. So again, less excuses, more adapting! Perhaps it does work well up to a point on ladder for sure, I don’t refer to pros as evidence anything is bad, I don’t see how they’re better than the other factory options for supporting bio though. Mines do pretty brutal splash and also are useful defensively, tanks give long range zoning splash and this is useful both defensively or in gradually pushing. Neither of these really cares hugely for armoury upgrades either which is nice. Hellbats are slow and get zoned by other Protoss units, although they’re good against Zealots specifically. They would situationally be really good I’m just not sure you can force a game to fit those situations. The amount of times I've seen a Terran get rekt by their own Widow Mines because they thought going bio mine vs chargelots was a good idea is mind numbing. If the Protoss has a brain, they will use that friendly fire to gib your own units regularly. I'd argue that outside of a few stray mines in chokes around the map, mines are one of the worst units to use vs Protoss right now (in battle, they still rock for harass). Especially with new charge. Very specifically vs chargelots, you're better off getting 8 Hellbats. If it's not mass chargelots or if they transitioned, then the 8 Hellbats aren't going to do anything because as you pointed out, they get rekt by splash damage and basically everything not named Zealot or Adept. It's just a very strong counter to charge allins. Be in ones on the current patch or the previous one. I could see it working really well against charge allins defensively for sure because the Hellbat’s relative slowness isn’t a factor when the Zealots are charging into your position.
Who would have an armory in time for a charge all-in? It usually goes down in time for 2-2 to start, and quick armories is only used in BC or BFH builds, mostly against zerg. Even tvt mech usually has late upgrades as it is so important to get factories up and gas is hard to come by.
I believe helbats vs toss was actually meta at some point, but others have pointed out why that is not the case anymore, disruptors being one of them.
Imo, Widowmines are stupid units in how they can punish small attention mistakes with major damage, but balance wise they are needed for Terran to keep their opponents on their toes and counter mass melee. That players have to avoid/abuse both mine and siegetank friendly fire is a part of the game I have accepted.
#BabelFish1: Have you laddered some more after the patch? Is your PvT doing ok?
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feels bad getting cheesed every game since they started showing mmr
I agree with scarlett...
how is supposed to be ladder training with that xxx "feature"?
I think fore tournaments featur its fine (or maybe grandmaster)
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On December 03 2019 08:07 Kertorak wrote:
feels bad getting cheesed every game since they started showing mmr
I agree with scarlett...
how is supposed to be ladder training with that xxx "feature"?
I think fore tournaments featur its fine (or maybe grandmaster)
If you are masters playing vs a diamond, does the diamond get to see your mmr? I ask from a masters perspective.
It's not very fair that they get to see mine and I don't get to see theirs. When I play with my main I don't get this problem because I only play masters players. But when I play random it's annoying and diamonds only cheese me.
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