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On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents.
I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JonnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point.
Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again.
Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect.
PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE!
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On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE!
Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill.
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On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JonnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE!
I recall Solar and soO beeing there as well. Funny how they weren't in the finals... but Reynor was. Must be pure coincidence
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On November 26 2019 15:13 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE! Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill.
Ok, so Maru is the only Terran in ro8 because he is the only Terran that performs well. While for Zerg, it just happens to be the race that most of the "best performers" are playing. Is that what you mean?
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On November 26 2019 19:36 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2019 15:13 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE! Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill. Ok, so Maru is the only Terran in ro8 because he is the only Terran that performs well. While for Zerg, it just happens to be the race that most of the "best performers" are playing. Is that what you mean?
It was clearly implied as a possibility, not necessarily an actual reality. The fallacies being pointed out are:
1. Player X is only impressive if he's successful with a weak race, and players succeeding with a strong race aren't worthy of mention.
2. Race A must be gimped by imbalance if a disproportionately small number of players of that race survive group stages, while Race B is boosted by imbalance if they're disproportionately represented into the playoff, or finals.
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On November 26 2019 19:36 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2019 15:13 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE! Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill. Ok, so Maru is the only Terran in ro8 because he is the only Terran that performs well. While for Zerg, it just happens to be the race that most of the "best performers" are playing. Is that what you mean?
Map Statistics for HomeStoryCup 20 (Liquipedia):
Terran vs Zerg: 51.9 %
Zerg vs Protoss: 49.3 %
Protoss vs Terran: 65.2 %
You can think there is a balance issue, and Reynor and Serral finished in the top 2 for a balance advantage. Your choice.
The data above are telling me a different story, and i believe Reynor and Serral were the better players.
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So happy for Serral (and Reynor) - is he now the definition of a non-patch zerg?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 26 2019 21:09 skiekai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2019 19:36 ParksonVN wrote:On November 26 2019 15:13 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE! Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill. Ok, so Maru is the only Terran in ro8 because he is the only Terran that performs well. While for Zerg, it just happens to be the race that most of the "best performers" are playing. Is that what you mean? Map Statistics for HomeStoryCup 20 (Liquipedia): Terran vs Zerg: 51.9 % Zerg vs Protoss: 49.3 % Protoss vs Terran: 65.2 % You can think there is a balance issue, and Reynor and Serral finished in the top 2 for a balance advantage. Your choice. The data above are telling me a different story, and i believe Reynor and Serral were the better players.
The result isn't exactly perfect map sample, is it? By this results we would have to replace following maps:
Acropolis, Winter's Gate, Ephemeron, World of Sleepers, Triton, Thunderbird and Disco Bloodbath  Which would leave us with exactly 0 maps. And I just took huge extremes in the W/R for every MU  (e.g. Acropolis and its 64 % TvZ, 67 % PvT, Disco 73 % PvT etc.)
Also I would dare to say that the most weak players(generally) were zergs. Bly, SortOf, TLO, Zanster and Denver are not big favorits for a good placement. No offense to the players. Or maybe it's just my poor knowledge of foreing players
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On November 26 2019 22:01 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2019 21:09 skiekai wrote:On November 26 2019 19:36 ParksonVN wrote:On November 26 2019 15:13 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE! Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill. Ok, so Maru is the only Terran in ro8 because he is the only Terran that performs well. While for Zerg, it just happens to be the race that most of the "best performers" are playing. Is that what you mean? Map Statistics for HomeStoryCup 20 (Liquipedia): Terran vs Zerg: 51.9 % Zerg vs Protoss: 49.3 % Protoss vs Terran: 65.2 % You can think there is a balance issue, and Reynor and Serral finished in the top 2 for a balance advantage. Your choice. The data above are telling me a different story, and i believe Reynor and Serral were the better players. The result isn't exactly perfect map sample, is it? By this results we would have to replace following maps: Acropolis, Winter's Gate, Ephemeron, World of Sleepers, Triton, Thunderbird and Disco Bloodbath Which would leave us with exactly 0 maps. And I just took huge extremes in the W/R for every MU (e.g. Acropolis and its 64 % TvZ, 67 % PvT, Disco 73 % PvT etc.) Also I would dare to say that the most weak players(generally) were zergs. Bly, SortOf, TLO, Zanster and Denver are not big favorits for a good placement. No offense to the players. Or maybe it's just my poor knowledge of foreing players
Gold medal in mental gymnastics.
In what world are MarineLorD, SouL and Kelazhur more favored? Or Hellraiser, Harstem and MaNa? There were weaker players and stronger players for all races.
As someone else pointed out, we didn’t see soO, Solar or Elazer in the finals. We saw Reynor and Serral. This is because they are without a doubt two of the best players regardless of race. When Taeja and Mvp dominated it for a while people would discuss how often Terran won championships. They must be OP. No the best player just happened to be that race. This is also the case here.
None of the data so far supports this patch being imbalanced. The “champion” being Zerg shows much more support to Serral (Reynor can be included in the discussion) being the best player.
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On November 26 2019 20:26 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2019 19:36 ParksonVN wrote:On November 26 2019 15:13 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE! Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill. Ok, so Maru is the only Terran in ro8 because he is the only Terran that performs well. While for Zerg, it just happens to be the race that most of the "best performers" are playing. Is that what you mean? It was clearly implied as a possibility, not necessarily an actual reality. The fallacies being pointed out are: 1. Player X is only impressive if he's successful with a weak race, and players succeeding with a strong race aren't worthy of mention. 2. Race A must be gimped by imbalance if a disproportionately small number of players of that race survive group stages, while Race B is boosted by imbalance if they're disproportionately represented into the playoff, or finals.
A race is definitely OP if it has all the best 3 players in the world for a decent amount of time: Serral, Dark, Rogue are definitely top 3 at the moment. Come on, are Protoss and Terran players that bad? Are Maru, Classic, Stats all that bad? They got swept by the top Zergs that made them look terrible, sure you can point of many of their mistakes, but it was all about the facts that Zerg players can get away with their mistake easily.
If only Serral wins title after title then he's surely the best player and it has nothing to do with balance. But no, i'm seeing he and Reynor dominating WCS while Dark and Rogue are dominating GSL. Not only they won, they destroyed non-Zerg opponents they played and I'm sure other top Protoss and Terran are not lazy in practicing.
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Northern Ireland26512 Posts
On November 26 2019 22:12 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2019 22:01 deacon.frost wrote:On November 26 2019 21:09 skiekai wrote:On November 26 2019 19:36 ParksonVN wrote:On November 26 2019 15:13 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE! Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill. Ok, so Maru is the only Terran in ro8 because he is the only Terran that performs well. While for Zerg, it just happens to be the race that most of the "best performers" are playing. Is that what you mean? Map Statistics for HomeStoryCup 20 (Liquipedia): Terran vs Zerg: 51.9 % Zerg vs Protoss: 49.3 % Protoss vs Terran: 65.2 % You can think there is a balance issue, and Reynor and Serral finished in the top 2 for a balance advantage. Your choice. The data above are telling me a different story, and i believe Reynor and Serral were the better players. The result isn't exactly perfect map sample, is it? By this results we would have to replace following maps: Acropolis, Winter's Gate, Ephemeron, World of Sleepers, Triton, Thunderbird and Disco Bloodbath Which would leave us with exactly 0 maps. And I just took huge extremes in the W/R for every MU (e.g. Acropolis and its 64 % TvZ, 67 % PvT, Disco 73 % PvT etc.) Also I would dare to say that the most weak players(generally) were zergs. Bly, SortOf, TLO, Zanster and Denver are not big favorits for a good placement. No offense to the players. Or maybe it's just my poor knowledge of foreing players Gold medal in mental gymnastics. In what world are MarineLorD, SouL and Kelazhur more favored? Or Hellraiser, Harstem and MaNa? There were weaker players and stronger players for all races. As someone else pointed out, we didn’t see soO, Solar or Elazer in the finals. We saw Reynor and Serral. This is because they are without a doubt two of the best players regardless of race. When Taeja and Mvp dominated it for a while people would discuss how often Terran won championships. They must be OP. No the best player just happened to be that race. This is also the case here. None of the data so far supports this patch being imbalanced. The “champion” being Zerg shows much more support to Serral (Reynor can be included in the discussion) being the best player.
I think drawing conclusions this early on a mod of the patch that was actually bugged (the BC/abduct thing) would be pretty mental.
HSC is a fantastic tournament but it has the biggest skill gap in its players out of all the Premiers by a distance outside of WESG probably. There’s an (increasing and gj for Take etc in doing this) smattering of real S class Koreans, Serral who is of that calibre, Reynor who has joined that tier, some top foreigners and a mix of fan favourite Koreans who’ve history at HSC like Taeja etc and some foreigners who aren’t at the top table there.
Trap for example I think for my money has the outright best PvT around, and those who disagree would still tend to put him in the top 3. I don’t think it says much about PvT if he’s stomping all but the best Terrans in the world, or TvP specialists.
We’ll have to see. There were Zergs complaining on day 1 of the tournament that Zerg couldn’t win lategame vP anymore, and by day 3 Protoss were complaining that vZ is still an imbalanced matchup.
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On November 26 2019 22:32 parksonsc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2019 20:26 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 19:36 ParksonVN wrote:On November 26 2019 15:13 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE! Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill. Ok, so Maru is the only Terran in ro8 because he is the only Terran that performs well. While for Zerg, it just happens to be the race that most of the "best performers" are playing. Is that what you mean? It was clearly implied as a possibility, not necessarily an actual reality. The fallacies being pointed out are: 1. Player X is only impressive if he's successful with a weak race, and players succeeding with a strong race aren't worthy of mention. 2. Race A must be gimped by imbalance if a disproportionately small number of players of that race survive group stages, while Race B is boosted by imbalance if they're disproportionately represented into the playoff, or finals. A race is definitely OP if it has all the best 3 players in the world for a decent amount of time: Serral, Dark, Rogue are definitely top 3 at the moment. Come on, are Protoss and Terran players that bad? Are Maru, Classic, Stats all that bad? They got swept by the top Zergs that made them look terrible, sure you can point of many of their mistakes, but it was all about the facts that Zerg players can get away with their mistake easily. If only Serral wins title after title then he's surely the best player and it has nothing to do with balance. But no, i'm seeing he and Reynor dominating WCS while Dark and Rogue are dominating GSL. Not only they won, they destroyed non-Zerg opponents they played and I'm sure other top Protoss and Terran are not lazy in practicing.
For starters, your condition for an OP race is completely arbitrary. Secondly, all you've pointed out is that there are in fact a lot of dominant zergs. To jump to the conclusion that zerg is OP because there are more OP zergs than players of other races is where you used fallacious reasoning. I couldn't care less (as far as balance is concerned) if the entire top20 list is completely filled with zergs given that they all deserve to be there. I'm much more interested in analyzing games to see where dynamics are clearly imbalanced. In having done so, I have already stated many times my agreement with the general consensus that Zerg has indeed been generally favored. That, however, has absolutely zero bearing on how skilled the top zergs are. Trying to balance a game based solely on the distribution of wins among the races for the most prominent pros is a recipe for disaster. You may end up punishing a handful of players for just being extremely talented at the game. It's much better to analyze and improve the mechanics of the game than to look at who is most dominant.
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On November 26 2019 23:40 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2019 22:32 parksonsc wrote:On November 26 2019 20:26 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 19:36 ParksonVN wrote:On November 26 2019 15:13 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE! Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill. Ok, so Maru is the only Terran in ro8 because he is the only Terran that performs well. While for Zerg, it just happens to be the race that most of the "best performers" are playing. Is that what you mean? It was clearly implied as a possibility, not necessarily an actual reality. The fallacies being pointed out are: 1. Player X is only impressive if he's successful with a weak race, and players succeeding with a strong race aren't worthy of mention. 2. Race A must be gimped by imbalance if a disproportionately small number of players of that race survive group stages, while Race B is boosted by imbalance if they're disproportionately represented into the playoff, or finals. A race is definitely OP if it has all the best 3 players in the world for a decent amount of time: Serral, Dark, Rogue are definitely top 3 at the moment. Come on, are Protoss and Terran players that bad? Are Maru, Classic, Stats all that bad? They got swept by the top Zergs that made them look terrible, sure you can point of many of their mistakes, but it was all about the facts that Zerg players can get away with their mistake easily. If only Serral wins title after title then he's surely the best player and it has nothing to do with balance. But no, i'm seeing he and Reynor dominating WCS while Dark and Rogue are dominating GSL. Not only they won, they destroyed non-Zerg opponents they played and I'm sure other top Protoss and Terran are not lazy in practicing. For starters, your condition for an OP race is completely arbitrary. Secondly, all you've pointed out is that there are in fact a lot of dominant zergs. To jump to the conclusion that zerg is OP because there are more OP zergs than players of other races is where you used fallacious reasoning. I couldn't care less (as far as balance is concerned) if the entire top20 list is completely filled with zergs given that they all deserve to be there. I'm much more interested in analyzing games to see where dynamics are clearly imbalanced. In having done so, I have already stated many times my agreement with the general consensus that Zerg has indeed been generally favored. That, however, has absolutely zero bearing on how skilled the top zergs are. Trying to balance a game based solely on the distribution of wins among the races for the most prominent pros is a recipe for disaster. You may end up punishing a handful of players for just being extremely talented at the game. It's much better to analyze and improve the mechanics of the game than to look at who is most dominant.
It's an "IF" that never would happen in a balance game. If all races are balance, there is no reason that literally all the top players are playing the same race. If your "20 best players" deserve to be all in the top 20 of the game, then it's surely the RACE that make them deserve. SC2 is the game when you lose, you look bad no matter how good you are and imo it makes you think all the current top Zerg deserve to be on top of the world. Yes maybe 1 or 2 players (rarely) but 3 or even 4? No way it would happen if it wasn't for the race.
My point is I don't think all of Dark, Serral, Rogue or Reynor deserve to achieve that many titles in the past 2 years over the fellow non-Zerg pros, they are talented for sure but so are other guys. If we have a Terran-favored meta for 2 years, we would have Maru, TY, Inno smashing every tournaments and many people (like you) would claim that they all deserve to be there.
Probability & Mathematic statistics is not that hard to understand, too much of anything is unbalance.
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Northern Ireland26512 Posts
On November 27 2019 01:06 parksonsc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2019 23:40 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 22:32 parksonsc wrote:On November 26 2019 20:26 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 19:36 ParksonVN wrote:On November 26 2019 15:13 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE! Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill. Ok, so Maru is the only Terran in ro8 because he is the only Terran that performs well. While for Zerg, it just happens to be the race that most of the "best performers" are playing. Is that what you mean? It was clearly implied as a possibility, not necessarily an actual reality. The fallacies being pointed out are: 1. Player X is only impressive if he's successful with a weak race, and players succeeding with a strong race aren't worthy of mention. 2. Race A must be gimped by imbalance if a disproportionately small number of players of that race survive group stages, while Race B is boosted by imbalance if they're disproportionately represented into the playoff, or finals. A race is definitely OP if it has all the best 3 players in the world for a decent amount of time: Serral, Dark, Rogue are definitely top 3 at the moment. Come on, are Protoss and Terran players that bad? Are Maru, Classic, Stats all that bad? They got swept by the top Zergs that made them look terrible, sure you can point of many of their mistakes, but it was all about the facts that Zerg players can get away with their mistake easily. If only Serral wins title after title then he's surely the best player and it has nothing to do with balance. But no, i'm seeing he and Reynor dominating WCS while Dark and Rogue are dominating GSL. Not only they won, they destroyed non-Zerg opponents they played and I'm sure other top Protoss and Terran are not lazy in practicing. For starters, your condition for an OP race is completely arbitrary. Secondly, all you've pointed out is that there are in fact a lot of dominant zergs. To jump to the conclusion that zerg is OP because there are more OP zergs than players of other races is where you used fallacious reasoning. I couldn't care less (as far as balance is concerned) if the entire top20 list is completely filled with zergs given that they all deserve to be there. I'm much more interested in analyzing games to see where dynamics are clearly imbalanced. In having done so, I have already stated many times my agreement with the general consensus that Zerg has indeed been generally favored. That, however, has absolutely zero bearing on how skilled the top zergs are. Trying to balance a game based solely on the distribution of wins among the races for the most prominent pros is a recipe for disaster. You may end up punishing a handful of players for just being extremely talented at the game. It's much better to analyze and improve the mechanics of the game than to look at who is most dominant. It's an "IF" that never would happen in a balance game. If all races are balance, there is no reason that literally all the top players are playing the same race. If your "20 best players" deserve to be all in the top 20 of the game, then it's surely the RACE that make them deserve. SC2 is the game when you lose, you look bad no matter how good you are and imo it makes you think all the current top Zerg deserve to be on top of the world. Yes maybe 1 or 2 players (rarely) but 3 or even 4? No way it would happen if it wasn't for the race. My point is I don't think all of Dark, Serral, Rogue or Reynor deserve to achieve that many titles in the past 2 years over the fellow non-Zerg pros, they are talented for sure but so are other guys. If we have a Terran-favored meta for 2 years, we would have Maru, TY, Inno smashing every tournaments and many people (like you) would claim that they all deserve to be there. Probability & Mathematic statistics is not that hard to understand, too much of anything is unbalance.
What are you basing your probability and mathematics on here though?
There really aren’t a huge amount of real ‘S class’ players currently active in the game, which is quite a small sample size to expect racial parity to be a factor.
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On November 26 2019 21:09 skiekai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2019 19:36 ParksonVN wrote:On November 26 2019 15:13 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 26 2019 14:45 SirPinky wrote:On November 25 2019 18:04 tigon_ridge wrote:On November 25 2019 17:46 UnLarva wrote:
Weird feeling. Never seen generally more calm, happy aftermath reactions of a tournament in the internet. Level of balance whining is down despite Zergs once again stole the show. Serral fans are seemingly collectively feeling little bit shamed for Serral's win because Reynor was so incredibly great and would've very well deserved to win the tournament too by his performances. Terrans and Protosses, and generally all who hate mirror matchups, but particularly ZvZ seems behaving and commenting in way that they all are arrived to the consensus opinion: "ZvZ is soooooooooo ZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzz-zzz....., but Serral vs Reynor... that is totally something else". Things probably will change back to "normal" soon enough, but I've never witnessed more serene, friendly, and pleased SC2 community as a whole online before.
That level Great the HSC XX was. We want more, we want more, we want more.... :D I did see a bit of whining on the part of some koreaboos and general balance whiners, but yeah all in all the results were pretty non-controversial. I'm also still a bit disappointed by the lack of respect and recognition Reynor deserves. Well, no wonder there's a lack of fresh blood; here's a guy not even old enough to vote, and he's wreaking havoc upon some of the best—and hardly anyone acknowledges him as top 10 in the world. Maybe the community doesn't deserve to see new SC2 talents. I wouldn't disagree with you unless Zergs weren't winning everything under the sun in the last 12-24 months. I don't know if you remember a Zerg called "JohnnyRecco" (close to Reynor age) who was pretty much claimed a patch Zerg by the end of WoL because BL/Infestor was so ridiculous. We are getting to the same point. Hopefully the patch changes it up a bit but I feel Reynor has (unfairly) fallen into this category. I mean, there are Koreans that practice 24/7 and have years of experience over him and it just keeps being another ZvZ finals with a kid (like you said) under 18. Maybe he is a savant; however, I find it far too coincidental that you have a Zerg final time and time again. Throw him out there, like a Maru, who had 4 Zergs and 3 Protoss in the Ro8. See how he does when he is the only one standing, then he will get more respect. PS: GREAT SHOW TAKE! Irrelevant red herring. No one is saying Zerg wasn't favored for the past year or two. The fact is, Reynor had been consistently performing better than every Zerg except for the top 3-4. He'd been crushing even other zergs, including Serral at times. Even if Maru is the only terran in a playoff, it doesn't mean terran is gimped; it could just mean he's the only terran performing well. People need to stop with that fallacy. The fact that zerg was favored as a race doesn't mean that the best zergs weren't also more skilled than players of other races. You can call it a coincidence or simply zerg being patch-boosted or whatever, but whenever I see Serral and Reynor go head to head, I see some epic ZvZ with amazing multiprong action that you can't ever get from anyone but players with the utmost skill. Ok, so Maru is the only Terran in ro8 because he is the only Terran that performs well. While for Zerg, it just happens to be the race that most of the "best performers" are playing. Is that what you mean? Map Statistics for HomeStoryCup 20 (Liquipedia): Terran vs Zerg: 51.9 % Zerg vs Protoss: 49.3 % Protoss vs Terran: 65.2 % You can think there is a balance issue, and Reynor and Serral finished in the top 2 for a balance advantage. Your choice. The data above are telling me a different story, and i believe Reynor and Serral were the better players.
Both Soo and Solar are still great players in Korean scene, and have not even fared close to what Reynor and Serral have in the past year.
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Hey whoever wrote this article did a really fantastic job in my opinion.
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Great writeup. The final was truly worthy of otherwise awesome event. Happy that Serral took the triple-crown.
Any news about the new prize money distribution with the doubled prize pot?
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Starcraft 2 is perfectly balanced. It always was. Reynor and Serral are just leagues above everyone else. It's not the game, it's the players.
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Serral winnig it all. Pefectly balanced as all things should be. Thats how I like it :D
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EPT
