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On April 16 2019 19:36 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 12:34 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 16 2019 09:50 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 08:59 ValM wrote:On April 16 2019 07:55 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote:So INno is the last contender ?  Taeja and MVP are out ? You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning. Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S. In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet. Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it. Adults can agree to disagree right? I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course. I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with. Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively. By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history. I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion. I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics. Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title. It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place. Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression. I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case?
Objectively - those WCS players where Serral got his minor league wins get destroyed by Koreans. Except maybe for TY's friend and Neeb.
veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
You joined this forum Monday, 5th of November 2018 and you accuse a whole lot of people of favoritism?
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On April 17 2019 01:03 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 23:53 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 22:41 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 16 2019 19:36 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 12:34 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 16 2019 09:50 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 08:59 ValM wrote:On April 16 2019 07:55 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote:So INno is the last contender ? Taeja and MVP are out ? You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning. Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S. In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet. Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it. Adults can agree to disagree right? I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course. I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with. Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively. By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history. I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion. I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics. Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title. It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place. Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression. I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case? Well that statement that "said facts" would "clearly show Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's" isn't objective at all. And this is what I meant: you're presenting your interpretation of the facts as an objective truth which is just dishonest. Also that a majority of posters shares your opinions proves nothing, as I mentioned before because Serral (rightfully) caused hype way beyond the well informed SC2 fan. Also the writers were biased in my opinion. I remember how they catched by the hype, too, pre Blizzcon, when they all predicted Serral winning besided there was no objective hint that this would be more likely than Maru winning (not that this was a unrealistic prediction but hype is the only possible explanation why they all voted for Serral). Thus it is apparent that the writer's bias was reassured by Serral's win at Blizzcon while Maru's feat was kind of "forgotten" as it seemed not as impactful anymore. Still I don't see that a vocal minority is voting for Maru as GOAT here in the thread. Minority of the whole somewhat interested fandom - ok, then your point is valid but that doesn't mean anything because this is probably the case for almost any topic on TL. Minority in this discussion? Not really as it is at least a big section of the posters here. That TL writers didn't claim Maru as GOAT isn't really relevant in this discussion. Mizenhauer really isn't famous for stating opinions which are popular and I highly doubt that the opinion of the other writers would hinder him from publishing his articles. The "best of GSL" is just a save headline that can't be disputed and just doesn't open the discussion wether Maru can be called GOAT or not, because this wasn't the focus of the article. Funny enough, I'm kind of on your side because I also would rather not call Maru GOAT already but I wouldn't dismiss that perspective as heavily like you're doing it. There must be a misunderstanding, I'll rewrite the phrase: "It doesn't seem me THAT I wrote facts showed etc etc", as I don't remember I made it seem like an obvious fact. Ok, sry. My bad. I had the same impression as you're remembering it - that's why I was so harsh now because of my misunderstanding. On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote:
Not all of the writers predicted Serral to win, it was like four said Serral would win, two chose Maru and one predicted Stats; the explanation for that could be Maru going out early in Super Tournament II while also looking less dominant in Code S S3.
Well, could be. At the same time they ranked Maru highest in pre Blizzcon powerrank. Weird stuff. On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote:
Most of the posts here are in fact claiming Maru is the GOAT; I suspect instead that if you made a poll asking everyone if Maru is the GOAT, the majority would think otherwise (we might just wait the results of Nakajin's contest).
The most reasonable statement in the wake of Maru's fourth Code S in a row is the one Mizenhauer makes in his article.
As you rightfully said "most posts" isn't a valid criteria but most posters in here are opting for Maru as GOAT. As for the minority-majority thing I want to clarify: you're probably right that the majority wouldn't call Maru GOAT but you made it sound like it would be an overwhelming majority. I think a poll would result into a significant number (maybe 1/3 or so) of voters favoring Maru=GOAT. I want to say the majority isn't necessarily on the right side, especially when speaking of objective and measurable facts: people convinced of the Earth being flat don't actually render it flat. Coming to our discussion, I feel that a significant minority would vote for case for Maru as GOAT(due to the inevitable recency bias added to the respect for Code S as the best tournament in sc2), it's just the comments in his favor are overwhelming in number and I do not feel this appropriately mirrors the opinion of most of the people on TL. Uh, here is the poll, I voted already! Are we sure enough people would see it? Maybe it would be better to post it where it has more visibility(a new thread or something), not to mention people who already replied to this post(showing their support for Maru) are most likely the ones who will see the poll and express their votes.
Lol first you have this fetish with Fallacy of Mass Appeal. Then you say they're not necessarily on the right side.
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On April 17 2019 08:05 ProFalseIdol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 19:36 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 12:34 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 16 2019 09:50 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 08:59 ValM wrote:On April 16 2019 07:55 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote:So INno is the last contender ? Taeja and MVP are out ? You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning. Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S. In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet. Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it. Adults can agree to disagree right? I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course. I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with. Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively. By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history. I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion. I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics. Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title. It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place. Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression. I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case? Objectively - those WCS players where Serral got his minor league wins get crushed by Koreans. Except maybe for TY's friend and Neeb. Show nested quote +veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression. You joined this forum Monday, 5th of November 2018 and you accuse a whole lot of people of favoritism?
I made an account on this forum rightly after Serral won BlizzCon but I was watching Sc2 tournaments as early as WoL beta.
So you found out I love Serral as a player? That's hardly a surprise for everyone.
You seem to be, judging by the few phrases you just wrote to me, at best another one stuck in a distant past when B-team koreans could dominate top foreigners in any tournament and at worst an elitist who only looks at the nationality of a player to decide it he's worth or not.
Are you including Scarlett who won Pyeonchang against a top korean? Reynor who eliminated Classic and brought Maru to one hard decider game in Code S before even being allowed to play in WCS?
Have you looked at the names who qualified in Code S those last years(NoRegreT?)? You have to respect the level foreigner players have reached in LoTV, koreans are obviously ahead but they are not exactly "crushing", calling WCS a "minor league" is mindlessly derogative.
I am not accusing them of favoritism, after spending a good amount of my active time here on TL discussing with the very same people who are now calling Maru a GOAT, I simply know most of them value Code S as the holiest of tournaments.
Edit: I see no contradiction, I wrote that post before the poll was even made. I have often pointed out my opinion was shared by many when it was basically regarded as senseless, yet something is not necessarily true just because the majority is convinced of that(especially when we are speaking of measurable things and not moral or religious convictions); it's not that easy.
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On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now  We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
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On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very inconsistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral in regard of consistency.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games)
Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran
Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Maru is one of the most consistent player we ever had besides Innovation. Yes, if you check just the champion titles, it doesn't look that shiny, but he was there ALL THE TIME. That's consistency, not that when Terran starts being bad you go into forgotten lands(Innovation)
Maru has so huge consistency that Serral would have to play for another 6 years to beat just his consistency he got in HotS proleague. And remember, Serral plays from 2012(Liquipedia source)
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On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player.
He's definitely not the best player.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit>
Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
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On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
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It's pretty obvious you didn't watch much pre 2018 because Maru is one of the most consistent players ever. He's almost never had a slump/streak of bad results since early 2013. Even when he's failed he's made up for it almost straight away.
Even back in 2013-14 he either won or went playoffs in four seasons in a row. He's even made playoffs in consecutive seasons even when no other terran could even make consistent ro16.
He's been the sole terran in the playoffs of four GSL seasons. No other player in sc2 history has managed to maintain results like that during periods of obvious imbalance. If that isn't consistency what is?
For some other facts, he's qualified for every Code S since then 2013, except one season where he lost to the best player in the world in Code A. He has ONE ro32 loss in Code S during this time, and right after that he won four in a row.
He also has the most starleague ro8s, ro4s, and championships of any player. He's been either the best terran, or at minimum top 3, pretty much always for over six years now.
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On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference. Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013:
+ Show Spoiler +WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th
WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4
WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4
2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4
2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th
2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd
2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8
2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16
2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8
2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16
2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8
2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8
2016 WESG: 2nd
2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8
2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th
2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4
2017 WESG: 1st
2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8
2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4
2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8
2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8
2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th
2018 WESG: 3rd
2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have
1x 1rst
2x 2nd
6x Ro4 or 3rd
9x Ro8 or 5th-6th
6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner.
+ Show Spoiler +Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map.
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On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference. Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys. Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th
WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4
WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4
2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4
2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th
2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd
2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8
2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16
2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8
2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16
2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8
2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8
2016 WESG: 2nd
2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8
2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th
2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4
2017 WESG: 1st
2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8
2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4
2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8
2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8
2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th
2018 WESG: 3rd
2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. + Show Spoiler +Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map.
I'm with you that these are consistent results. But they aren't "goat-consistent" results. Serral is more consistent since 2018 because he won everything but the last WCS where he placed 2nd.
I think Serral's consistency will eventually plummet, too.
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On April 19 2019 03:56 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference. Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys. Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th
WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4
WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4
2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4
2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th
2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd
2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8
2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16
2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8
2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16
2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8
2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8
2016 WESG: 2nd
2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8
2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th
2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4
2017 WESG: 1st
2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8
2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4
2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8
2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8
2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th
2018 WESG: 3rd
2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. + Show Spoiler +Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map. I'm with you that these are consistent results. But they aren't "goat-consistent" results. Serral is more consistent since 2018 because he won everything but the last WCS where he placed 2nd. I think Serral's consistency will eventually plummet, too.
While I do agree with many of your points (Maru was not the best player in 2018, Maru is not the GOAT, Serral > Maru in 2018), Serral hasnt had much success since his Blizzcon and Maru is by far the better player in 2019
I don't think Code S is the be-all-end-all of premier tournaments but it's overall the hardest, and Maru is winning that while Serral lost WCS which is in another planet compared to Code S in terms of talent and difficulty (part of the reason I think Maru is dominating so hard is because I think Terran is overpowered atm, but that's for another topic - he's doing what no other terran is doing)
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 19 2019 04:16 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2019 03:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority". My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless. No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference. Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys. Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th
WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4
WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4
2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4
2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th
2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd
2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8
2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16
2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8
2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16
2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8
2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8
2016 WESG: 2nd
2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8
2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th
2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4
2017 WESG: 1st
2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8
2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4
2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8
2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8
2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th
2018 WESG: 3rd
2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. + Show Spoiler +Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map. I'm with you that these are consistent results. But they aren't "goat-consistent" results. Serral is more consistent since 2018 because he won everything but the last WCS where he placed 2nd. I think Serral's consistency will eventually plummet, too. While I do agree with many of your points (Maru was not the best player in 2018, Maru is not the GOAT, Serral > Maru in 2018), Serral hasnt had much success since his Blizzcon and Maru is by far the better player in 2019 I don't think Code S is the be-all-end-all of premier tournaments but it's overall the hardest, and Maru is winning that while Serral lost WCS which is in another planet compared to Code S in terms of talent and difficulty (part of the reason I think Maru is dominating so hard is because I think Terran is overpowered atm, but that's for another topic - he's doing what no other terran is doing)
Serral did nothing during 2012 - 2017, to overcome this he would need to dominate way longer.
Terran OP so we had whole 2 of them in GSL ST 1 I am entertained.
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On April 19 2019 05:56 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2019 04:16 BerserkSword wrote:On April 19 2019 03:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
[quote]
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference. Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys. Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th
WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4
WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4
2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4
2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th
2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd
2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8
2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16
2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8
2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16
2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8
2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8
2016 WESG: 2nd
2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8
2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th
2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4
2017 WESG: 1st
2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8
2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4
2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8
2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8
2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th
2018 WESG: 3rd
2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. + Show Spoiler +Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map. I'm with you that these are consistent results. But they aren't "goat-consistent" results. Serral is more consistent since 2018 because he won everything but the last WCS where he placed 2nd. I think Serral's consistency will eventually plummet, too. While I do agree with many of your points (Maru was not the best player in 2018, Maru is not the GOAT, Serral > Maru in 2018), Serral hasnt had much success since his Blizzcon and Maru is by far the better player in 2019 I don't think Code S is the be-all-end-all of premier tournaments but it's overall the hardest, and Maru is winning that while Serral lost WCS which is in another planet compared to Code S in terms of talent and difficulty (part of the reason I think Maru is dominating so hard is because I think Terran is overpowered atm, but that's for another topic - he's doing what no other terran is doing) Serral did nothing during 2012 - 2017, to overcome this he would need to dominate way longer. Terran OP so we had whole 2 of them in GSL ST 1 I am entertained.
Serral may have gone to his first LAN in 2012 but he didn't start playing full time until 2017.
Maru was consistent enough throughout the years(Serral's 2018 was more successful but we will never agree on that); Maru's 2019 is better because he won a tournament even if he placed lower in all the others.
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On April 19 2019 05:56 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2019 04:16 BerserkSword wrote:On April 19 2019 03:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 22:06 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 18 2019 20:56 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:41 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:38 deacon.frost wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
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We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements. Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL. "Vocal minority" hah. Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years... On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
[quote]
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah. Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results. Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency. Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues Then return and apologize. Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player. You say he's inconsistent and that's not true. Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference. Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys. Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th
WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4
WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4
2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4
2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th
2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd
2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8
2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16
2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8
2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16
2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8
2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8
2016 WESG: 2nd
2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8
2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th
2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4
2017 WESG: 1st
2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8
2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4
2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8
2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8
2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th
2018 WESG: 3rd
2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. + Show Spoiler +Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map. I'm with you that these are consistent results. But they aren't "goat-consistent" results. Serral is more consistent since 2018 because he won everything but the last WCS where he placed 2nd. I think Serral's consistency will eventually plummet, too. While I do agree with many of your points (Maru was not the best player in 2018, Maru is not the GOAT, Serral > Maru in 2018), Serral hasnt had much success since his Blizzcon and Maru is by far the better player in 2019 I don't think Code S is the be-all-end-all of premier tournaments but it's overall the hardest, and Maru is winning that while Serral lost WCS which is in another planet compared to Code S in terms of talent and difficulty (part of the reason I think Maru is dominating so hard is because I think Terran is overpowered atm, but that's for another topic - he's doing what no other terran is doing) Serral did nothing during 2012 - 2017, to overcome this he would need to dominate way longer. Terran OP so we had whole 2 of them in GSL ST 1 I am entertained.
All I said was serral was the best player in 2018 imo. I dont think he is anywhere near the GOAT, a bonjwa, nor was he the best player in 2012-2017
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It seems that some people are using the title Greatest of all time as a substitute for Bonjwa. GOAT is something that exist, we just haven't agreed on any one player. There has to be someone (or more than 1 player) that is best. They don't have to be dominant, just better than the rest.
Who are the contenders?
Serral has had 1 great year That isn't very much in the long term, but that is amazing in the moment.
INnoVation has been on and off for a loong time, with a big amplitude on his sinus wave (high peaks and deep valleys).
Maru has been more on than off with high placements throughout his career. Maru has been the last terran a whole lot. I think it was in 2014 that people started seeing a pattern with Maru, that when other terrans falter, he's still holding his own.
Is MVP still considered? He got shafted by his body. What if he quit when still on top?
I've seen Life being mentioned a few times. He got himself banned while on top of his game. Is the memory of being great that strong? Serral could quit now and just have the mediocre 2017, the amazing 2018 and a strong start of 2019. Life started strong, skipping the mediocre first year, but he didn't have that amazing year, just great ones.
Reynor has also been mentioned as an inconsistent player. Reynor has been playing for such a short time. He has 2nd place as his worst placement in WCS and he has managed to get to the ro16 of code S where the ro4 Neeb and winner Maru knocked him out.
Who else is in contention? sOs, soO, Stats? If we are to talk about GOAT, then we need to compare the players. So many posts are about discrediting or elevating a single player. That is not how comparisons work.
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EPT
