Back in October of 2018, when Maru won his third consecutive Code S title, we said he had achieved the impossible. Now, it's looking like we should just stop using that word around him at all.
With a 4-2 victory over Classic in the finals, Maru won his fourth consecutive GSL Code S championship, singling him out as the greatest winner in the history of Korea's most prestigious tournament. Maru tied the legendary Mvp's mark of four total GSL titles, while surpassing Mvp's tally of three Code S championships (Mvp's fourth title came in the GSL World Championship, a slightly lesser event).
In line with his post-game interviews ever since he won his first Code S title, Maru once again credited his Jin Air teammates for being the keys to his success. Classic, who had held back tears after winning his semifinal match, stoically stated he would do better in upcoming tournaments.
While Classic wasn't playing for a chance to make GSL history, there were still considerable personal stakes on the line for the 27-year-old veteran who looked to win a final championship in the last year of his career. After seeing Classic outsmart Dark and Rogue with a deluge of cheeses and timing-attacks in previous playoff matches, it was no surprise when he opened the series up with a proxy-Gateway for an early Stalker attack. Though the tactic failed in game one, Classic went right back at Maru with another proxy-gate attack in game two to tie up the series after gaining an early lead. The tone had been set: Classic was willing to do anything to win the title.
Game three served as a demonstration of why Classic had prioritized doing damage early (or ending the game outright), as Maru absolutely crushed him with a two base tank-push in the first 'normal' game of the series. Classic responded by blindsiding Maru with a Tempest rush in game four, with proxied Shield Batteries allowing him to chip away at Maru's defenses until he was forced to GG out.
Classic went back to proxy-Gating in game five on King's Cove, but by this point, Maru had adapted by going for a blind Bunker early on. Maru was in no hurry to end the macro game he had set up, and dragged Classic down into a split-map slog. Classic tried to pull his best Dear impression from the semifinals, but Maru seemed to have learned from his previous late-game defeat. After deflecting all attempts to breach his defenses, Maru transitioned into a Battlecruiser-centric force to seal the game.
Down at match point, Classic went for his most desperate ploy of the series with yet another proxy-Gateway—but this time with Dark Templars. Unfortunately for Classic, Maru was able to make a perfect read based on his scouting information, rendering the DTs useless while succeeding with a Widow Mine drop of his own. Classic was effectively doomed after giving up such a significant early game lead to Maru, and was soon forced to GG out when Maru's armies marched across the map.
Felt bad for Classic. Considering he wasn't able to play in IEM or WeSG like last year, he really did bring it in Code S. Beating TRUE, Trap (twice), sOs, Rogue, and Dark is sick.
Maru is just unbeatable in most circumstances when he's on form. He only lost two macro games this whole season (one to Impact, one to Dear).
It's impressive, It just feels less special than other champions to me because of how GSL is now.. the way he picks the groups to me means that he gets a pass to RO8 basically. I checked sc2 Aligulac and his average opponent rank was 15.25 (Koreans only). I just think he had an easy run but then you can only beat whats put in front of you
The only real late game map (game 5) felt more like Classic crumbling than Maru playing really well. I don't know: he seemed really lost on what to do and was really out of position, but maybe I just didn't understand that game.
I feel like Maru was already destined to be the champion since Trap (luckily considering game 1?) beat TY 3:2 in ro8. As he said himself at WESG, he was extremely confident on all matchups except TvT. He lost to Inno afterwards. Congrats to Maru! I'm a Terran since Broodwar era so my dream since 2010 has always been an epic game where Terran beat Protoss in a 30 minutes super late game with a decisive battle. I've never beaten any toss on ladder if they got triple AoE or golden armada.
Finally ready to call Maru the best player in the world at this moment. I am mildly sad we didn't get to see him go up against a zerg or terran titan in this run - the only non-protoss he faced were Ragnarok and Bunny. Even still, series vs Dear and Classic were super impressive.
i'm so bloody happy Mary won. I was literally going to stop playing and watching sc2 after game 4 tempest rush. Those are the sort of cancer builds I come across with in ladder. OMFG.
Gotta say while there aren't too many builds to take away from this series you can learn a lot on just how to hold protoss cheeses minus proxy tempest of course. But man was that game on kings cove intense.
On April 15 2019 06:38 DSh1 wrote: The only real late game map (game 5) felt more like Classic crumbling than Maru playing really well. I don't know: he seemed really lost on what to do and was really out of position, but maybe I just didn't understand that game.
I agree. Classic's play was almost unworthy of a GSL finals. For some reason classic just stopped using revelation to tag maru's army and stopped poking with Tempest completely. He was bleeding tons of units for free while not getting anything done himself. Maru was getting free unattended warp prisms, unmicroed dts/zealots and tons of damage with small groups of bio, while Classic was just sitting there falling apart. Classic threw that game before BCs could win it.
I think this is bittersweet because while Maru winning is great and all, Classic losing in the finals of his last year is pretty sad.. I guess he has 2 more shots
Still so much bad vibes in here... it was a great final. Maru again just made the right decisions and instead of Dark, who was never able to find the proxies, he made the right decisions regarding scouting and above all, read his opponent and build defense blindly - thats definitely a skill not that impressive when you see it as a spectator but whe you think about it - just awesome. Maru just plays on another level, he's just so solid!!
On April 15 2019 10:50 NinjaNight wrote: Now if Maru can become better than Innovation at TvT he can be undisputed best in the world.
I actually don't see Maru being undisputed until he starts dominating big weekender tournaments. If he wins Super Tournament and eventually takes Blizzcon, then I think there will be few doubters. Until then, I think there will be people who would dispute the claim. My guess is that probably he has the most evidence behind him for best in the world right at this moment, but it's been a bit of a bumpy ride this year so far.
Maru is good. But until he plays Serral straight on in a full on series that question will remain out there. Which is why when he’s failed to make his side of the bracket everyone’s been disappointed.
I am hoping we see some more Circuit players in GSL later in the year now that Challenger has been reinstated. That would be more interesting to me than the bottom four Korean players.
Proxying Mr. Proxy himself. Was kinda ironic but pretty entertaining overall. If Maru can prepare he is so strong. But I wouldn't underestimate him having a whole team in the back that helps him with between games
On April 15 2019 07:09 Ryu3600 wrote: Gotta say while there aren't too many builds to take away from this series you can learn a lot on just how to hold protoss cheeses minus proxy tempest of course. But man was that game on kings cove intense.
I'm pretty sure that "learning a lot" involves... building a bunker! or... building a bunker? Overall, Classic showed complete lack of understanding of the MU or, which is more likely, he just had no confidence against maru (or terrans in general), so he avoided standard plays at all costs. Pretty dissapointing series. But they also prove how broken PvT is. And by that i mean too many agressive options for terran early/mid game which (if executed correctly, and not w/o coinfliping sometimes) makes playing from a protoss perspective a real pain in the ass. Like, for the first half of the game you are paranoid about terran agression hoping to survive till the late game, where you actually don't have any edge against terran compositions that involve ghosts. So yep, protoss still have to rely on gimmicks against competent terrans, who just play their cards cold minded. And almost forgot, you also have to read through numerious tl threads with diamond terrans whining about your race, that's a nuisance too, but i can live with that.
Did not Maru play that game vs proxy Tempest wrong? I always go reactor vikings against proxy Tempest and it works most of the time, why did he try to go cyclones?
The only impressive match with Maru was against Dear. The rest of the games were a huge tactical jump to the final. Still, Maru was the better player than Classic. I was hoping for 2:2 at least in order to witness more interesting finals this time. Another season with brilliant games by players like TY, Dark, Classic... and another Season with one obvious winner and obvious great losers. Congratulations for Maru's fans!
On April 15 2019 12:55 StarcraftSquall wrote: Maru is good. But until he plays Serral straight on in a full on series that question will remain out there. Which is why when he’s failed to make his side of the bracket everyone’s been disappointed.
I am hoping we see some more Circuit players in GSL later in the year now that Challenger has been reinstated. That would be more interesting to me than the bottom four Korean players.
Well, Serral really isn't the hottest player right now. Right now Maru needs to beat the likes of Reynor, Innovation, soO and Dark to prove his skill.
On April 15 2019 15:42 MockHamill wrote: Did not Maru play that game vs proxy Tempest wrong? I always go reactor vikings against proxy Tempest and it works most of the time, why did he try to go cyclones?
I'm not sure but aren't you getting vulnerable to gateway units if you're going for mass vikings?
On April 15 2019 07:09 Ryu3600 wrote: Gotta say while there aren't too many builds to take away from this series you can learn a lot on just how to hold protoss cheeses minus proxy tempest of course. But man was that game on kings cove intense.
I'm pretty sure that "learning a lot" involves... building a bunker! or... building a bunker? Overall, Classic showed complete lack of understanding of the MU or, which is more likely, he just had no confidence against maru (or terrans in general), so he avoided standard plays at all costs. Pretty dissapointing series. But they also prove how broken PvT is. And by that i mean too many agressive options for terran early/mid game which (if executed correctly, and not w/o coinfliping sometimes) makes playing from a protoss perspective a real pain in the ass. Like, for the first half of the game you are paranoid about terran agression hoping to survive till the late game, where you actually don't have any edge against terran compositions that involve ghosts. So yep, protoss still have to rely on gimmicks against competent terrans, who just play their cards cold minded. And almost forgot, you also have to read through numerious tl threads with diamond terrans whining about your race, that's a nuisance too, but i can live with that.
Yes Terrans are crushing it in TvP right now. Oh wait... That is only Maru. Well in that case I guess everything you said is BS. Nice try though!
On April 15 2019 07:09 Ryu3600 wrote: Gotta say while there aren't too many builds to take away from this series you can learn a lot on just how to hold protoss cheeses minus proxy tempest of course. But man was that game on kings cove intense.
I'm pretty sure that "learning a lot" involves... building a bunker! or... building a bunker? Overall, Classic showed complete lack of understanding of the MU or, which is more likely, he just had no confidence against maru (or terrans in general), so he avoided standard plays at all costs. Pretty dissapointing series. But they also prove how broken PvT is. And by that i mean too many agressive options for terran early/mid game which (if executed correctly, and not w/o coinfliping sometimes) makes playing from a protoss perspective a real pain in the ass. Like, for the first half of the game you are paranoid about terran agression hoping to survive till the late game, where you actually don't have any edge against terran compositions that involve ghosts. So yep, protoss still have to rely on gimmicks against competent terrans, who just play their cards cold minded. And almost forgot, you also have to read through numerious tl threads with diamond terrans whining about your race, that's a nuisance too, but i can live with that.
Super Tournament is just starting with 2 Terrans out of 16 players, one of whom was invited. It seems all the Terrans who didn't qualify need your help as they failed
On April 15 2019 12:55 StarcraftSquall wrote: Maru is good. But until he plays Serral straight on in a full on series that question will remain out there. Which is why when he’s failed to make his side of the bracket everyone’s been disappointed.
I am hoping we see some more Circuit players in GSL later in the year now that Challenger has been reinstated. That would be more interesting to me than the bottom four Korean players.
Well, Serral really isn't the hottest player right now. Right now Maru needs to beat the likes of Reynor, Innovation, soO and Dark to prove his skill.
IS HE THOUGH?
Let’s think about this for a second...
Serral’s losses this year were very close. They all involved a decider game and weren’t bops except for Neeb in WESG when he was sick (yes he was by his own admission).
Think a little harder... every player that beat him in a tournament stage ended up winning said tournament. He’s not on the same kind of streak Maru is currently but as far as Circuit players is there anyone else you trust to be consistently good and show high quality play at this time?
soO INnoVation and Reynor show flashes of brilliance yes. But no consistency. And that matters.
On April 15 2019 12:55 StarcraftSquall wrote: Maru is good. But until he plays Serral straight on in a full on series that question will remain out there. Which is why when he’s failed to make his side of the bracket everyone’s been disappointed.
I am hoping we see some more Circuit players in GSL later in the year now that Challenger has been reinstated. That would be more interesting to me than the bottom four Korean players.
Well, Serral really isn't the hottest player right now. Right now Maru needs to beat the likes of Reynor, Innovation, soO and Dark to prove his skill.
IS HE THOUGH?
Let’s think about this for a second...
Serral’s losses this year were very close. They all involved a decider game and weren’t bops except for Neeb in WESG when he was sick (yes he was by his own admission).
Think a little harder... every player that beat him in a tournament stage ended up winning said tournament. He’s not on the same kind of streak Maru is currently but as far as Circuit players is there anyone else you trust to be consistently good and show high quality play at this time?
soO INnoVation and Reynor show flashes of brilliance yes. But no consistency. And that matters.
If you value consistency so much, high win rate over years, many RO8/RO4, 4 code s titles in a row, top proleague player, youngest royal roader... yet it doesn't seem like you have been affected, interesting
On April 15 2019 12:55 StarcraftSquall wrote: Maru is good. But until he plays Serral straight on in a full on series that question will remain out there. Which is why when he’s failed to make his side of the bracket everyone’s been disappointed.
I am hoping we see some more Circuit players in GSL later in the year now that Challenger has been reinstated. That would be more interesting to me than the bottom four Korean players.
Well, Serral really isn't the hottest player right now. Right now Maru needs to beat the likes of Reynor, Innovation, soO and Dark to prove his skill.
IS HE THOUGH?
Let’s think about this for a second...
Serral’s losses this year were very close. They all involved a decider game and weren’t bops except for Neeb in WESG when he was sick (yes he was by his own admission).
Think a little harder... every player that beat him in a tournament stage ended up winning said tournament. He’s not on the same kind of streak Maru is currently but as far as Circuit players is there anyone else you trust to be consistently good and show high quality play at this time?
soO INnoVation and Reynor show flashes of brilliance yes. But no consistency. And that matters.
I'm far from saying that Serral isn't a great player anymore but in order to be considered part of the absolute top, you actually have to win stuff. This isn't the case for Serral right now. Especially after losing to Heromarine and to Reynor twice I don't think one can really argue for Serral being top Dog anymore.
With his domination in ProLeague days in 2016, consistent top Terran position, WESG win against TY, a Royal Road win in both 2013 OSL and 2015 SSL, and his 4 consecutive GSL wins. The only player to win all 3 Korean star leagues. If you include his time in Proleague, he has been consistently in at least top 4 of tournaments every year since 2012, just two years after his professional debut at age 13.
On April 15 2019 19:24 ProFalseIdol wrote: With his domination in ProLeague days in 2016, consistent top Terran position, WESG win against TY, a Royal Road win in both 2013 OSL and 2015 SSL, and his 4 consecutive GSL wins. The only player to win all 3 Korean star leagues. If you include his time in Proleague, he has been consistently in at least top 4 of tournaments every year since 2012, just two years after his professional debut at age 13.
Maru is the SC2 Greatest Player of All Time.
Nah. I think Innovation is still the GOAT of all time but it's close between him and Maru, after Maru's 4th GSL win. Innovation has won 9 Premier Tournament titles and came in 3rd/4th and 2nd in a bunch of other premier tournaments: INnoVation
Innovation was also a monster in Pro League and he was the ace player that helped his team win two Pro Leagues - with STX in 2013, and SK Telecom in 2015.
For me, after Innovation won this year's WESG, even the 4th GSL by Maru didn't put him over Innovation, but that is my opinion (WESG is not as difficult and prestigious as GSL, but it was still a nice win by Innovation).
Anyways, this is subjective at this point and we all have different opinions. But if Maru wins more premier tournaments this year and Innovation doesn't, I would consider Maru to be GOAT.
On April 15 2019 19:24 ProFalseIdol wrote: With his domination in ProLeague days in 2016, consistent top Terran position, WESG win against TY, a Royal Road win in both 2013 OSL and 2015 SSL, and his 4 consecutive GSL wins. The only player to win all 3 Korean star leagues. If you include his time in Proleague, he has been consistently in at least top 4 of tournaments every year since 2012, just two years after his professional debut at age 13.
Maru is the SC2 Greatest Player of All Time.
Nah. I think Innovation is still the GOAT of all time but it's close between him and Maru, after Maru's 4th GSL win. Innovation has won 9 Premier Tournament titles and came in 3rd/4th and 2nd in a bunch of other premier tournaments: INnoVation
Innovation was also a monster in Pro League and he was the ace player that helped his team win two Pro Leagues - with STX in 2013, and SK Telecom in 2015.
For me, after Innovation won this year's WESG, even the 4th GSL by Maru didn't put him over Innovation, but that is my opinion (WESG is not as difficult and prestigious as GSL, but it was still a nice win by Innovation).
Anyways, this is subjective at this point and we all have different opinions. But if Maru wins more premier tournaments this year and Innovation doesn't, I would consider Maru to be GOAT.
Well you have to consider 4 Code S titles in a row. Which sounds a tiny differently than "just" 4 code s titles
On April 15 2019 19:24 ProFalseIdol wrote: With his domination in ProLeague days in 2016, consistent top Terran position, WESG win against TY, a Royal Road win in both 2013 OSL and 2015 SSL, and his 4 consecutive GSL wins. The only player to win all 3 Korean star leagues. If you include his time in Proleague, he has been consistently in at least top 4 of tournaments every year since 2012, just two years after his professional debut at age 13.
Maru is the SC2 Greatest Player of All Time.
Nah. I think Innovation is still the GOAT of all time but it's close between him and Maru, after Maru's 4th GSL win. Innovation has won 9 Premier Tournament titles and came in 3rd/4th and 2nd in a bunch of other premier tournaments: INnoVation
Innovation was also a monster in Pro League and he was the ace player that helped his team win two Pro Leagues - with STX in 2013, and SK Telecom in 2015.
For me, after Innovation won this year's WESG, even the 4th GSL by Maru didn't put him over Innovation, but that is my opinion (WESG is not as difficult and prestigious as GSL, but it was still a nice win by Innovation).
Anyways, this is subjective at this point and we all have different opinions. But if Maru wins more premier tournaments this year and Innovation doesn't, I would consider Maru to be GOAT.
Well you have to consider 4 Code S titles in a row. Which sounds a tiny differently than "just" 4 code s titles
4 GSL Code S in a row is MASSIVE. Also, Maru is the only player to have double Royal Road in SC2 and the only other player to achieve this is BoxeR.
On April 15 2019 19:24 ProFalseIdol wrote: With his domination in ProLeague days in 2016, consistent top Terran position, WESG win against TY, a Royal Road win in both 2013 OSL and 2015 SSL, and his 4 consecutive GSL wins. The only player to win all 3 Korean star leagues. If you include his time in Proleague, he has been consistently in at least top 4 of tournaments every year since 2012, just two years after his professional debut at age 13.
Maru is the SC2 Greatest Player of All Time.
Nah. I think Innovation is still the GOAT of all time but it's close between him and Maru, after Maru's 4th GSL win. Innovation has won 9 Premier Tournament titles and came in 3rd/4th and 2nd in a bunch of other premier tournaments: INnoVation
Innovation was also a monster in Pro League and he was the ace player that helped his team win two Pro Leagues - with STX in 2013, and SK Telecom in 2015.
For me, after Innovation won this year's WESG, even the 4th GSL by Maru didn't put him over Innovation, but that is my opinion (WESG is not as difficult and prestigious as GSL, but it was still a nice win by Innovation).
Anyways, this is subjective at this point and we all have different opinions. But if Maru wins more premier tournaments this year and Innovation doesn't, I would consider Maru to be GOAT.
Well you have to consider 4 Code S titles in a row. Which sounds a tiny differently than "just" 4 code s titles
4 GSL Code S in a row is MASSIVE. Also, Maru is the only player to have double Royal Road in SC2 and the only other player to achieve this is BoxeR.
I agree. "In a row" is key here. And bonjwa concept isn't literally applicable in Sc2 because BW was different: less volatile, different competition schedule, etc. Extended domination is harder in Sc2.
Polt and Kiwian (TOP) both mention how the jet lag and travel fatique from traveling to a foreigner event is a significant issue for some Koreans. Maru probably suffers from this too.
Can we stop calling Maru a double royal roader though? Didn't he win the very first SSL? Seriously, stop it with this nonsense. And he won the second SC2 OSL... these are not impressive royal roads and no one considers him a royal roader other than some trolls on here. Life is a royal roader, Dear is a royal roader. Maru is not.
Recency bias and Code S bias are making people proclaim Maru undisputed GOAT; if you look at his results more objectively, that's not the case, but he isn't that far and might very well become the most accomplished player over time if Inno stops winning. It is one understandable call, overall.
Calling Maru bonjwa(assuming the term can be applied to Sc2) is instead inappropriate; his best streak took place last year from mid March to mid September when he won WESG and three Code S seasons while losing at Super Tourament I and GSL vs the World. That's a terrific streak, strictly better than Rogue's who went 4/7(July 2017-March 2018) but arguably worse than Life's who won five out of eight Premier tournaments in five months(October 2012-March 2013, Maru would be only 3/5 if we consider the same time span). Moreover, Serral's streak(5/5 or 6/6 albeit three of these being WCS tournaments) in 2018 partially overlaps with Maru's and the title of bonjwa is tied to unchallenged domination(Flash became one after defeating his contender Jaedong in three consecutive starleague finals in 2010); none of the Sc2 players mentioned above truly is a bonjwa but I'd say Life is the closest we ever got.
It's weird that the bonjwa calls for Maru are made now as, after Code S3 2018, he lost at Super Tournament, BlizzCon, IEM Katowice 2019 and WESG before winning again this last Code S title. It's one outstanding accomplishment in regards of his career, but in no way it makes him a bonjwa: no one is dominating Sc2 in 2019, we had different winners in every Premier tournament.
On April 15 2019 22:43 Xain0n wrote: Recency bias and Code S bias are making people proclaim Maru undisputed GOAT; if you look at his results more objectively, that's not the case, but he isn't that far and might very well become the most accomplished player over time if Inno stops winning. It is one understandable call, overall.
Calling Maru bonjwa(assuming the term can be applied to Sc2) is instead inappropriate; his best streak took place last year from mid March to mid September when he won WESG and three Code S seasons while losing at Super Tourament I and GSL vs the World. That's a terrific streak, strictly better than Rogue's who went 4/7(July 2017-March 2018) but arguably worse than Life's who won five out of eight Premier tournaments in five months(October 2012-March 2013, Maru would be only 3/5 if we consider the same time span). Moreover, Serral's streak(5/5 or 6/6 albeit three of these being WCS tournaments so let's not make) in 2018 partially overlaps with Maru's and the title of bonjwa is tied to unchallenged domination(Flash became one after defeating his contender Jaedong in three consecutive starleague finals in 2010); none of the Sc2 players mentioned above truly is a bonjwa but I'd say Life is the closest we ever got.
It's weird that the bonjwa calls for Maru are made now as, after Code S3 2018, he lost at Super Tournament, BlizzCon, IEM Katowice 2019 and WESG before winning again this last Code S title. It's one outstanding accomplishment in regards of his career, but in no way it makes him a bonjwa: no one is dominating Sc2 in 2019, we had different winners in every Premier tournaments.
it's pretty simple, GSL has been around forever so people falsely associate "prestige" of an older tournament with that tournament actually being more difficult than others. just like when SSL was an equally hard tournament with mostly the same players but everyone acted like GSL was the "real" championship just because the sponsors were different lol
maru is a god why are people still crying about him being bonjwa goat legend? makes no sense. he can lose all his games after this and it still makes no difference. serral has already fallen off, losing in WCS which was "his" tournament and also in the other tourneys. game over man
On April 15 2019 22:34 Rodya wrote: Polt and Kiwian (TOP) both mention how the jet lag and travel fatique from traveling to a foreigner event is a significant issue for some Koreans. Maru probably suffers from this too.
Can we stop calling Maru a double royal roader though? Didn't he win the very first SSL? Seriously, stop it with this nonsense. And he won the second SC2 OSL... these are not impressive royal roads and no one considers him a royal roader other than some trolls on here. Life is a royal roader, Dear is a royal roader. Maru is not.
Royal road is nothing else than winning that tournament the first time you qualify for the main rounds (i always thought this added qualifier is dumb if anything else). It stems from OSL specifically but people used it for starleagues in general. GRRRR is a royal roader, just like maru royal roaded both OSL and SSL. No trolling required
In BW the tournaments that articulated the scene were OSL, MSL and such. Proleague was too a nice touchstone, all bonjwas had crazy win ratios all across the board. Back in BW days there was Blizzcon Inv., but the true touchstone were the periodic and regular tournaments: OSL and MSL.
Bonjwas didn't win all in Korea, they won certain tournaments on a regular basis, OSL and MSL essentially. That GSL inherited that key rol is just a fact, not any kind of bias thing. You can discuss the importance of Blizzcon or other big big tournaments nowadays, you can compare 2018 Serral vs 2018 Maru, you can argue the state of korean sc2 scene, etc. You can compare everything, its just a videogame xd But you can't become the sc2 GOAT or bonjwa without competing in Korea and winning GSL. Thats a fact. And I'm a big Serral fanboy. Maybe it's unfair, like other traditions, but its how sc scene works.
On April 15 2019 19:24 ProFalseIdol wrote: With his domination in ProLeague days in 2016, consistent top Terran position, WESG win against TY, a Royal Road win in both 2013 OSL and 2015 SSL, and his 4 consecutive GSL wins. The only player to win all 3 Korean star leagues. If you include his time in Proleague, he has been consistently in at least top 4 of tournaments every year since 2012, just two years after his professional debut at age 13.
Maru is the SC2 Greatest Player of All Time.
A GOAT losing weekend tourneys in the early stages is quite a disappointing GOAT. Inno is a more suitable candidate for GOAT.
Maybe Maru can manage to not get kicked out of tournaments early this year. Maybe he can even reach Reynor or Serral.
On April 15 2019 22:34 Rodya wrote: Polt and Kiwian (TOP) both mention how the jet lag and travel fatique from traveling to a foreigner event is a significant issue for some Koreans. Maru probably suffers from this too.
Can we stop calling Maru a double royal roader though? Didn't he win the very first SSL? Seriously, stop it with this nonsense. And he won the second SC2 OSL... these are not impressive royal roads and no one considers him a royal roader other than some trolls on here. Life is a royal roader, Dear is a royal roader. Maru is not.
Royal road is nothing else than winning that tournament the first time you qualify for the main rounds (i always thought this added qualifier is dumb if anything else). It stems from OSL specifically but people used it for starleagues in general. GRRRR is a royal roader, just like maru royal roaded both OSL and SSL. No trolling required
On April 16 2019 02:28 ubikz wrote: Hide the personal bias when writing your opinion. It provides veracity.
Long time lurker here. I feel compelled to chime in after reading this. Do you understand what an opinion or opinion piece is? Telling someone to hide their personal bias when putting their opinion out there is like telling them don't have an opinion at all.
On April 15 2019 22:34 Rodya wrote: Polt and Kiwian (TOP) both mention how the jet lag and travel fatique from traveling to a foreigner event is a significant issue for some Koreans. Maru probably suffers from this too.
Can we stop calling Maru a double royal roader though? Didn't he win the very first SSL? Seriously, stop it with this nonsense. And he won the second SC2 OSL... these are not impressive royal roads and no one considers him a royal roader other than some trolls on here. Life is a royal roader, Dear is a royal roader. Maru is not.
Royal road is nothing else than winning that tournament the first time you qualify for the main rounds (i always thought this added qualifier is dumb if anything else). It stems from OSL specifically but people used it for starleagues in general. GRRRR is a royal roader, just like maru royal roaded both OSL and SSL. No trolling required
Lets be honest though being considered a royal roader for winning the first event of a tournament series is pretty dumb. Even if it's technically true.
Even with OSL it's not that amazing considering that OSL ran instead of GSL for a season and he'd played in GSL many times before.
Maru is a GOAT candidate for winning six fucking starleagues including four in a row. The royal roader stuff is cool but shouldn't be a factor.
On April 15 2019 22:34 Rodya wrote: Polt and Kiwian (TOP) both mention how the jet lag and travel fatique from traveling to a foreigner event is a significant issue for some Koreans. Maru probably suffers from this too.
Can we stop calling Maru a double royal roader though? Didn't he win the very first SSL? Seriously, stop it with this nonsense. And he won the second SC2 OSL... these are not impressive royal roads and no one considers him a royal roader other than some trolls on here. Life is a royal roader, Dear is a royal roader. Maru is not.
Royal road is nothing else than winning that tournament the first time you qualify for the main rounds (i always thought this added qualifier is dumb if anything else). It stems from OSL specifically but people used it for starleagues in general. GRRRR is a royal roader, just like maru royal roaded both OSL and SSL. No trolling required
Lets be honest though being considered a royal roader for winning the first event of a tournament series is pretty dumb. Even if it's technically true.
Even with OSL it's not that amazing considering that OSL ran instead of GSL for a season and he'd played in GSL many times before.
Maru is a GOAT candidate for winning six fucking starleagues including four in a row. The royal roader stuff is cool but shouldn't be a factor.
Well it is no factor for me, but it is still a royal road and as i said before, if anything the dumb part is that it only counts as a try the first time you play in the main rounds. The first ever tournament being considered as well makes perfect sense, why wouldn't it.
On April 15 2019 22:34 Rodya wrote: Polt and Kiwian (TOP) both mention how the jet lag and travel fatique from traveling to a foreigner event is a significant issue for some Koreans. Maru probably suffers from this too.
Can we stop calling Maru a double royal roader though? Didn't he win the very first SSL? Seriously, stop it with this nonsense. And he won the second SC2 OSL... these are not impressive royal roads and no one considers him a royal roader other than some trolls on here. Life is a royal roader, Dear is a royal roader. Maru is not.
Royal road is nothing else than winning that tournament the first time you qualify for the main rounds (i always thought this added qualifier is dumb if anything else). It stems from OSL specifically but people used it for starleagues in general. GRRRR is a royal roader, just like maru royal roaded both OSL and SSL. No trolling required
Lets be honest though being considered a royal roader for winning the first event of a tournament series is pretty dumb. Even if it's technically true.
Even with OSL it's not that amazing considering that OSL ran instead of GSL for a season and he'd played in GSL many times before.
Maru is a GOAT candidate for winning six fucking starleagues including four in a row. The royal roader stuff is cool but shouldn't be a factor.
But it's an awesome feat to mention as he did it twice
Maru doesn’t have anything left to prove in GSL Code S. He DOES however, have a ton to prove in the weekend format. He’ll get his first chance to silence the critics this weekend. But what does the narrative become if he flames out early again? 🤔
On April 16 2019 07:12 StarcraftSquall wrote: Maru doesn’t have anything left to prove in GSL Code S. He DOES however, have a ton to prove in the weekend format. He’ll get his first chance to silence the critics this weekend. But what does the narrative become if he flames out early again? 🤔
With so much money he doesn't need to silence anyone, 4 code s titles in a row, beat that.
On April 16 2019 07:12 StarcraftSquall wrote: Maru doesn’t have anything left to prove in GSL Code S. He DOES however, have a ton to prove in the weekend format. He’ll get his first chance to silence the critics this weekend. But what does the narrative become if he flames out early again? 🤔
With so much money he doesn't need to silence anyone, 4 code s titles in a row, beat that.
Yeah exactly. The amount of scrutiny and things being listed for Maru to accomplish before somebody would want to consider him great just reflects the fact on how far ahead of his competition he is.
For example, "look he did not win x,y and z tourneys since last year". If we pick out everybody's GOAT candidates and look at their best/peak year they would not have all the tournaments either. Judging somebody's performance is relative to where his peers are and cannot be absolute.
In my book for somebody to be best in the world, they need to win starleagues in korea. For all the dissing GSL is receiving from some newer followers of the game being a preparation tournament and not an international tournament, when you win a GSL you beat everybody who was in the best possible shape to take you down. As much as these fans would like to belittle Maru's success calling him a preparation players, all his opponents had the chance to prepare on him as well. That is why winning a GSL means you beat everybody else with all the edges they couldve worked up on you.
When judging a certain players success we all cant be like no no he hasnt won x,y and z tournament. Look at what the rest of the competition achieved? Korea and otherwise. Inno and sOO took big events this year preventing Maru and serral from winning but then bombed out of the GSL.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
The thing is that you don't realize that's the most impressive achievement any player has in SC2 history. Winning 4 GSL's in a row is completely unheard of. Has anyone else even won just 2 in a row?
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course.
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively.
By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course.
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively.
By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history.
I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion.
I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics.
Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course.
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively.
By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history.
I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion.
I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics.
Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title.
On April 15 2019 19:24 ProFalseIdol wrote: With his domination in ProLeague days in 2016, consistent top Terran position, WESG win against TY, a Royal Road win in both 2013 OSL and 2015 SSL, and his 4 consecutive GSL wins. The only player to win all 3 Korean star leagues. If you include his time in Proleague, he has been consistently in at least top 4 of tournaments every year since 2012, just two years after his professional debut at age 13.
Maru is the SC2 Greatest Player of All Time.
A GOAT losing weekend tourneys in the early stages is quite a disappointing GOAT. Inno is a more suitable candidate for GOAT.
Do you mean IEM-Innovation? Or perhaps "not-winning-anything in 2018"-Innovation? Or "not-attending-blizzcon"-Innovation?
On April 15 2019 19:24 ProFalseIdol wrote: With his domination in ProLeague days in 2016, consistent top Terran position, WESG win against TY, a Royal Road win in both 2013 OSL and 2015 SSL, and his 4 consecutive GSL wins. The only player to win all 3 Korean star leagues. If you include his time in Proleague, he has been consistently in at least top 4 of tournaments every year since 2012, just two years after his professional debut at age 13.
Maru is the SC2 Greatest Player of All Time.
A GOAT losing weekend tourneys in the early stages is quite a disappointing GOAT. Inno is a more suitable candidate for GOAT.
Do you mean IEM-Innovation? Or perhaps "not-winning-anything in 2018"-Innovation? Or "not-attending-blizzcon"-Innovation?
That last one is brutal. He didn't have enough WCS points, not even close, he placed 14th. Interestingly, in 2016 when ByuN won BlizzCon, Innovation ranked 31st tied with Bomber and SpeeD.
Even though the finals may not have had the greatest games, I think theorycrafters may look back at it and see that it had many interesting nuances that may influence the meta in the upcoming year.
- Classic came preped with a quick attack to deny/slow the natural expand. Maru countered with the blind bunker but if the blind bunker becomes the norm surely protoss can exploit this by playing super greedy? Because of this, players would have to figure out a solution to this.
- Tempest rush - what can i say?? Super innovative. And if it was Special that came up with it, kudos to him.
- BCs vs Protoss lategame. In the pass, I see terrans crumble to mass tempest play but Maru seemed to have found a solution? I think this area is worth exploring further.
On April 16 2019 14:06 Azzur wrote: Even though the finals may not have had the greatest games, I think theorycrafters may look back at it and see that it had many interesting nuances that may influence the meta in the upcoming year.
- Classic came preped with a quick attack to deny/slow the natural expand. Maru countered with the blind bunker but if the blind bunker becomes the norm surely protoss can exploit this by playing super greedy? Because of this, players would have to figure out a solution to this.
- Tempest rush - what can i say?? Super innovative. And if it was Special that came up with it, kudos to him.
- BCs vs Protoss lategame. In the pass, I see terrans crumble to mass tempest play but Maru seemed to have found a solution? I think this area is worth exploring further.
I think you're right on the bunker mind/meta-game. I wondered why Classic didn't go full macro in game 5 right from the beginning. Maru was super paranoid due to all the proxy stuff in previous games and perhaps Classic not being as much ahead as he could've been economically made the difference in the lategame.
For the BCs vs Protoss lategame: it is worth watching Creator vs TY in SuperTournament2 in 2018. They had an ultra long macro game with mass BCs vs mass tempests with Creator bating TY into unfavorable warps and TY forcing recalls to bases where he waited with the 2nd half of his army.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course.
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively.
By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history.
I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion.
I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics.
Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title.
It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place.
Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case?
Code S is superior to WCS. While we can discuss the rest of the tournaments and their importance(e.g. GSL vs TW offers a discussion or HSC). Which was the main point of many posters when discussing the Serral dominance over foreigners.
Let's check the last IEM 2 WCS players(Serral, Neeb) 6 Korean Players, 7 Code S players(Neeb is questionable as he didn't qualify for S1 or S2 2019(or I missed him, might have happened)
Blizzcon 2 WCS players(Serral, mjr Special) 6 Korean players, 7 Code S players(we can argue about mjr Special)
In my eyes the tournament with harder players to beat is superior to a tournament with lower quality players. WCS doesn't have the quality in players even if you consider the top names to be Code S players(which they are). Apart from random moments of glory for certain players we can talk about top8 WCS players being at the code S level. That's just eight players... (and I am being generous, I myself consider stable code s level players only Raynor, Scarlett, Neeb, Serral and mjr Special)
On April 16 2019 21:20 deacon.frost wrote: Code S is superior to WCS. While we can discuss the rest of the tournaments and their importance(e.g. GSL vs TW offers a discussion or HSC). Which was the main point of many posters when discussing the Serral dominance over foreigners.
Nobody ever said the opposite, it's just WCS tournaments aren't as easy as many make them to be and they cannot be disregarded when discussing of Serral's achievements in 2018.
Edit: I mostly agree with you(Neeb didn't attempt to qualify for Code S in 2019, his results in international tournaments clearly say he is at that level; Special will play in the next Code S season after forfeiting the qualifiers of S1).
Just, what do you mean for "Code S players"? The ones you listed all have ro16 and beyond potential. If you are speaking of merely qualifying to Code S then a larger portion of WCS players has a shot(NoRegreT qualified for Code S twice winning a bo3 once never reaching ro16 in WCS); if you speak of surviving the first groupstage ro8 seems appropriate.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course.
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively.
By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history.
I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion.
I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics.
Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title.
It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place.
Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case?
Well that statement that "said facts" would "clearly show Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's" isn't objective at all. And this is what I meant: you're presenting your interpretation of the facts as an objective truth which is just dishonest. Also that a majority of posters shares your opinions proves nothing, as I mentioned before because Serral (rightfully) caused hype way beyond the well informed SC2 fan. Also the writers were biased in my opinion. I remember how they catched by the hype, too, pre Blizzcon, when they all predicted Serral winning besided there was no objective hint that this would be more likely than Maru winning (not that this was a unrealistic prediction but hype is the only possible explanation why they all voted for Serral). Thus it is apparent that the writer's bias was reassured by Serral's win at Blizzcon while Maru's feat was kind of "forgotten" as it seemed not as impactful anymore.
Still I don't see that a vocal minority is voting for Maru as GOAT here in the thread. Minority of the whole somewhat interested fandom - ok, then your point is valid but that doesn't mean anything because this is probably the case for almost any topic on TL. Minority in this discussion? Not really as it is at least a big section of the posters here.
That TL writers didn't claim Maru as GOAT isn't really relevant in this discussion. Mizenhauer really isn't famous for stating opinions which are popular and I highly doubt that the opinion of the other writers would hinder him from publishing his articles. The "best of GSL" is just a save headline that can't be disputed and just doesn't open the discussion wether Maru can be called GOAT or not, because this wasn't the focus of the article. Funny enough, I'm kind of on your side because I also would rather not call Maru GOAT already but I wouldn't dismiss that perspective as heavily like you're doing it.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course.
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively.
By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history.
I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion.
I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics.
Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title.
It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place.
Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case?
Well that statement that "said facts" would "clearly show Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's" isn't objective at all. And this is what I meant: you're presenting your interpretation of the facts as an objective truth which is just dishonest. Also that a majority of posters shares your opinions proves nothing, as I mentioned before because Serral (rightfully) caused hype way beyond the well informed SC2 fan. Also the writers were biased in my opinion. I remember how they catched by the hype, too, pre Blizzcon, when they all predicted Serral winning besided there was no objective hint that this would be more likely than Maru winning (not that this was a unrealistic prediction but hype is the only possible explanation why they all voted for Serral). Thus it is apparent that the writer's bias was reassured by Serral's win at Blizzcon while Maru's feat was kind of "forgotten" as it seemed not as impactful anymore.
Still I don't see that a vocal minority is voting for Maru as GOAT here in the thread. Minority of the whole somewhat interested fandom - ok, then your point is valid but that doesn't mean anything because this is probably the case for almost any topic on TL. Minority in this discussion? Not really as it is at least a big section of the posters here.
That TL writers didn't claim Maru as GOAT isn't really relevant in this discussion. Mizenhauer really isn't famous for stating opinions which are popular and I highly doubt that the opinion of the other writers would hinder him from publishing his articles. The "best of GSL" is just a save headline that can't be disputed and just doesn't open the discussion wether Maru can be called GOAT or not, because this wasn't the focus of the article. Funny enough, I'm kind of on your side because I also would rather not call Maru GOAT already but I wouldn't dismiss that perspective as heavily like you're doing it.
There must be a misunderstanding, I'll rewrite the phrase: "It doesn't seem me THAT I wrote facts showed etc etc", as I don't remember I made it seem like an obvious fact. Not all of the writers predicted Serral to win, it was like four said Serral would win, two chose Maru and one predicted Stats; the explanation for that could be Maru going out early in Super Tournament II while also looking less dominant in Code S S3.
Most of the posts here are in fact claiming Maru is the GOAT; I suspect instead that if you made a poll asking everyone if Maru is the GOAT, the majority would think otherwise (we might just wait the results of Nakajin's contest). The most reasonable statement in the wake of Maru's fourth Code S in a row is the one Mizenhauer makes in his article.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course.
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively.
By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history.
I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion.
I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics.
Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title.
It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place.
Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case?
Well that statement that "said facts" would "clearly show Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's" isn't objective at all. And this is what I meant: you're presenting your interpretation of the facts as an objective truth which is just dishonest. Also that a majority of posters shares your opinions proves nothing, as I mentioned before because Serral (rightfully) caused hype way beyond the well informed SC2 fan. Also the writers were biased in my opinion. I remember how they catched by the hype, too, pre Blizzcon, when they all predicted Serral winning besided there was no objective hint that this would be more likely than Maru winning (not that this was a unrealistic prediction but hype is the only possible explanation why they all voted for Serral). Thus it is apparent that the writer's bias was reassured by Serral's win at Blizzcon while Maru's feat was kind of "forgotten" as it seemed not as impactful anymore.
Still I don't see that a vocal minority is voting for Maru as GOAT here in the thread. Minority of the whole somewhat interested fandom - ok, then your point is valid but that doesn't mean anything because this is probably the case for almost any topic on TL. Minority in this discussion? Not really as it is at least a big section of the posters here.
That TL writers didn't claim Maru as GOAT isn't really relevant in this discussion. Mizenhauer really isn't famous for stating opinions which are popular and I highly doubt that the opinion of the other writers would hinder him from publishing his articles. The "best of GSL" is just a save headline that can't be disputed and just doesn't open the discussion wether Maru can be called GOAT or not, because this wasn't the focus of the article. Funny enough, I'm kind of on your side because I also would rather not call Maru GOAT already but I wouldn't dismiss that perspective as heavily like you're doing it.
There must be a misunderstanding, I'll rewrite the phrase: "It doesn't seem me THAT I wrote facts showed etc etc", as I don't remember I made it seem like an obvious fact.
Ok, sry. My bad. I had the same impression as you're remembering it - that's why I was so harsh now because of my misunderstanding.
On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote: Not all of the writers predicted Serral to win, it was like four said Serral would win, two chose Maru and one predicted Stats; the explanation for that could be Maru going out early in Super Tournament II while also looking less dominant in Code S S3.
Well, could be. At the same time they ranked Maru highest in pre Blizzcon powerrank. Weird stuff.
On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote: Most of the posts here are in fact claiming Maru is the GOAT; I suspect instead that if you made a poll asking everyone if Maru is the GOAT, the majority would think otherwise (we might just wait the results of Nakajin's contest). The most reasonable statement in the wake of Maru's fourth Code S in a row is the one Mizenhauer makes in his article.
As you rightfully said "most posts" isn't a valid criteria but most posters in here are opting for Maru as GOAT. As for the minority-majority thing I want to clarify: you're probably right that the majority wouldn't call Maru GOAT but you made it sound like it would be an overwhelming majority. I think a poll would result into a significant number (maybe 1/3 or so) of voters favoring Maru=GOAT.
and yeah, are people saying WCS with region lock is just as hard as GSL people who just started watching sc2? cause anyone who has been watching a while remembers how naniwa had like a flawless run in one MLG, pre korean invasion. AFTER the invasion, naniwa was still a beast, but he wasn't dominating. similar story for many foreigners. the truly good ones could hold their own, but the koreans were taking their lunch money
Not sure, but he has a claim in the discussion. (455)
46%
Absolutely GOAT! (398)
40%
Absolutely not! (61)
6%
First he has to win WCS, Blizzcon, HSC, IEM and Cheesadelphia!!!1 (47)
5%
He still has to gather more trophies. (22)
2%
983 total votes
Your vote: Is Maru the GOAT?
(Vote): Absolutely GOAT! (Vote): Not sure, but he has a claim in the discussion. (Vote): He still has to gather more trophies. (Vote): Absolutely not! (Vote): First he has to win WCS, Blizzcon, HSC, IEM and Cheesadelphia!!!1
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course.
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively.
By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history.
I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion.
I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics.
Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title.
It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place.
Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case?
Well that statement that "said facts" would "clearly show Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's" isn't objective at all. And this is what I meant: you're presenting your interpretation of the facts as an objective truth which is just dishonest. Also that a majority of posters shares your opinions proves nothing, as I mentioned before because Serral (rightfully) caused hype way beyond the well informed SC2 fan. Also the writers were biased in my opinion. I remember how they catched by the hype, too, pre Blizzcon, when they all predicted Serral winning besided there was no objective hint that this would be more likely than Maru winning (not that this was a unrealistic prediction but hype is the only possible explanation why they all voted for Serral). Thus it is apparent that the writer's bias was reassured by Serral's win at Blizzcon while Maru's feat was kind of "forgotten" as it seemed not as impactful anymore.
Still I don't see that a vocal minority is voting for Maru as GOAT here in the thread. Minority of the whole somewhat interested fandom - ok, then your point is valid but that doesn't mean anything because this is probably the case for almost any topic on TL. Minority in this discussion? Not really as it is at least a big section of the posters here.
That TL writers didn't claim Maru as GOAT isn't really relevant in this discussion. Mizenhauer really isn't famous for stating opinions which are popular and I highly doubt that the opinion of the other writers would hinder him from publishing his articles. The "best of GSL" is just a save headline that can't be disputed and just doesn't open the discussion wether Maru can be called GOAT or not, because this wasn't the focus of the article. Funny enough, I'm kind of on your side because I also would rather not call Maru GOAT already but I wouldn't dismiss that perspective as heavily like you're doing it.
There must be a misunderstanding, I'll rewrite the phrase: "It doesn't seem me THAT I wrote facts showed etc etc", as I don't remember I made it seem like an obvious fact.
Ok, sry. My bad. I had the same impression as you're remembering it - that's why I was so harsh now because of my misunderstanding.
On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote: Not all of the writers predicted Serral to win, it was like four said Serral would win, two chose Maru and one predicted Stats; the explanation for that could be Maru going out early in Super Tournament II while also looking less dominant in Code S S3.
Well, could be. At the same time they ranked Maru highest in pre Blizzcon powerrank. Weird stuff.
On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote: Most of the posts here are in fact claiming Maru is the GOAT; I suspect instead that if you made a poll asking everyone if Maru is the GOAT, the majority would think otherwise (we might just wait the results of Nakajin's contest). The most reasonable statement in the wake of Maru's fourth Code S in a row is the one Mizenhauer makes in his article.
As you rightfully said "most posts" isn't a valid criteria but most posters in here are opting for Maru as GOAT. As for the minority-majority thing I want to clarify: you're probably right that the majority wouldn't call Maru GOAT but you made it sound like it would be an overwhelming majority. I think a poll would result into a significant number (maybe 1/3 or so) of voters favoring Maru=GOAT.
I want to say the majority isn't necessarily on the right side, especially when speaking of objective and measurable facts: people convinced of the Earth being flat don't actually render it flat.
Coming to our discussion, I feel that a significant minority would vote for case for Maru as GOAT(due to the inevitable recency bias added to the respect for Code S as the best tournament in sc2), it's just the comments in his favor are overwhelming in number and I do not feel this appropriately mirrors the opinion of most of the people on TL.
Uh, here is the poll, I voted already! Are we sure enough people would see it? Maybe it would be better to post it where it has more visibility(a new thread or something), not to mention people who already replied to this post(showing their support for Maru) are most likely the ones who will see the poll and express their votes.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
So who would you say is a better player all time than Maru? You shouldn't say Serral because Maru has a way more accomplished career than him. Serral only had about a year of dominance. Maru's achievements were still competitive with Serral's even at the same time as Serral's amazing run since he was dominating GSL like no one ever has before which is probably the most difficult tournament in the world. And on top of that he has consistently been a super elite player since like 2011 or 2012, so much longer than Serral who pretty much just started being an elite force one to one and a half years ago.
On April 16 2019 00:23 fishjie wrote: maru is a god why are people still crying about him being bonjwa goat legend? makes no sense. he can lose all his games after this and it still makes no difference. serral has already fallen off, losing in WCS which was "his" tournament and also in the other tourneys. game over man
The last four tourneys that they both played in, they never met because Maru was the one that got knocked out early. That's a pretty bad streak. To make matters worse, Serral won two of them and placed 2nd in another (GSL vs. World, Blizzcon, IEM Katowice, WESG). He also won a Homestory cup in that timeframe and just placed 2nd in the most recent WCS. While I said earlier in this thread that I believe Maru is the best at this moment, I can't see much of an argument that it's "game over" for Serral.
On April 16 2019 00:23 fishjie wrote: maru is a god why are people still crying about him being bonjwa goat legend? makes no sense. he can lose all his games after this and it still makes no difference. serral has already fallen off, losing in WCS which was "his" tournament and also in the other tourneys. game over man
The last four tourneys that they both played in, they never met because Maru was the one that got knocked out early. That's a pretty bad streak. To make matters worse, Serral won two of them and placed 2nd in another (GSL vs. World, Blizzcon, IEM Katowice, WESG). He also won a Homestory cup in that timeframe and just placed 2nd in the most recent WCS. While I said earlier in this thread that I believe Maru is the best at this moment, I can't see much of an argument that it's "game over" for Serral.
didn't win IEM didn't win WESG didn't win WCS EU - which is HIS tournament
the whole narrative in 2018 was that serral was completely unbeatable, and he showed it. but 2019 starts and in tourneys with koreans, AND a tourney with NO koreans, he did not clinch the gold
maru - 4X GSL CHAMPION BACK TO BACK TO BACK TO BACK
anyway, great poll, looks like 50% of people say maru is goat, but it should be its own thread so we get more votes and its more visible
Those are two separate and very different matters.
Serral didn't win tournaments in 2019, his showing and results have been good enough to suggest he didn't magically cease to be a very top player; he is not dominating Sc2 anymore, that's for sure. Maru in 2019 did worse than Serral in both IEM and WESG but he went on to win his fourth consecutive Code S; that would justify a #1 on a Power Ranking made now. Despite that, Maru isn't looking as dominant as he was after Code S S1 in 2018; I don't think there is a clear best player in the world right now.
If you speak of career accomplishments, even if I love Serral I can't in all honesty affirm his accomplishments are better than Maru's; If I had to make a GOAT list, Serral would be around the top 10. The ones who are ahead of Maru(and, I repeat, should seem more accomplished without recency and Code S bias) are Life, Inno and Mvp; Maru is kind of an anti-Taeja due to the lack of international successes(yes, he won WESG but he's 6-1 in favor of korean premier tournaments): he won seven Premiers to eleven but his successes came in(supposedly) harder and more prestigious tournaments.
I am taking into consideration top placements and Major victories as well(HSC sometimes are Major, sometimes are Premier with the only difference being 2k given to the first place); not sure how to rate career spans, a long career seems good to me if there is consistency at the highest level and conversely bad if a luminous peak is shadowed by years of nothingness.
On April 16 2019 00:23 fishjie wrote: maru is a god why are people still crying about him being bonjwa goat legend? makes no sense. he can lose all his games after this and it still makes no difference. serral has already fallen off, losing in WCS which was "his" tournament and also in the other tourneys. game over man
The last four tourneys that they both played in, they never met because Maru was the one that got knocked out early. That's a pretty bad streak. To make matters worse, Serral won two of them and placed 2nd in another (GSL vs. World, Blizzcon, IEM Katowice, WESG). He also won a Homestory cup in that timeframe and just placed 2nd in the most recent WCS. While I said earlier in this thread that I believe Maru is the best at this moment, I can't see much of an argument that it's "game over" for Serral.
didn't win IEM didn't win WESG didn't win WCS EU - which is HIS tournament
the whole narrative in 2018 was that serral was completely unbeatable, and he showed it. but 2019 starts and in tourneys with koreans, AND a tourney with NO koreans, he did not clinch the gold
maru - 4X GSL CHAMPION BACK TO BACK TO BACK TO BACK
anyway, great poll, looks like 50% of people say maru is goat, but it should be its own thread so we get more votes and its more visible
I don't think it's a very rational argument if your measuring stick for players is a binary "won entire tournament" or "accomplished nothing." By that line of thinking, soO's only value is an IEM and a kespa cup and he's been one of the worst GSL players of all time based on the number he competed in and "didn't win."
Also, by your own measuring stick, Maru has "lost" literally every non GSL premier tournament for the last 2 years except for one WESG.
He's been consistently dominant in one tournament for a year and that's it. Personally, I don't think I'll be ready to crown anyone a GOAT until they can consistently demonstrate their awesomeness in weekenders and preparation tournaments alike - Innovation comes the closest to that bar imo.
ok let me rephrase my last post. IF serral had won WESG, IEM, and WCS, then you could make an incredibly strong case that serral is still the best player in the world and equal to maru. however, with his recent string of losses, he is out of the contention for GOAT. my measuring stick is only for GOAT, not in terms of accomplishments. sorry if i didn't communicate it clearly, obviously serral will go down in sc2 history as one of the best, no argument there at all.
and yeah obviously soo is awesome, and getting to multiple finals, back to back to back to back, is sick. but is he GOAT? no. but does he have amazing accomplishments? absolutely.
On April 17 2019 03:10 fishjie wrote: ok let me rephrase my last post. IF serral had won WESG, IEM, and WCS, then you could make an incredibly strong case that serral is still the best player in the world and equal to maru. however, with his recent string of losses, he is out of the contention for GOAT. my measuring stick is only for GOAT, not in terms of accomplishments. sorry if i didn't communicate it clearly, obviously serral will go down in sc2 history as one of the best, no argument there at all.
and yeah obviously soo is awesome, and getting to multiple finals, back to back to back to back, is sick. but is he GOAT? no. but does he have amazing accomplishments? absolutely.
Ah, I see where you're coming from. I also think Maru is stronger at the moment than Serral, but am just hesitant to call anyone GOAT right now.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course.
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively.
By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history.
I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion.
I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics.
Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title.
It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place.
Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case?
Objectively - those WCS players where Serral got his minor league wins get destroyed by Koreans. Except maybe for TY's friend and Neeb.
veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
You joined this forum Monday, 5th of November 2018 and you accuse a whole lot of people of favoritism?
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course.
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively.
By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history.
I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion.
I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics.
Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title.
It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place.
Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case?
Well that statement that "said facts" would "clearly show Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's" isn't objective at all. And this is what I meant: you're presenting your interpretation of the facts as an objective truth which is just dishonest. Also that a majority of posters shares your opinions proves nothing, as I mentioned before because Serral (rightfully) caused hype way beyond the well informed SC2 fan. Also the writers were biased in my opinion. I remember how they catched by the hype, too, pre Blizzcon, when they all predicted Serral winning besided there was no objective hint that this would be more likely than Maru winning (not that this was a unrealistic prediction but hype is the only possible explanation why they all voted for Serral). Thus it is apparent that the writer's bias was reassured by Serral's win at Blizzcon while Maru's feat was kind of "forgotten" as it seemed not as impactful anymore.
Still I don't see that a vocal minority is voting for Maru as GOAT here in the thread. Minority of the whole somewhat interested fandom - ok, then your point is valid but that doesn't mean anything because this is probably the case for almost any topic on TL. Minority in this discussion? Not really as it is at least a big section of the posters here.
That TL writers didn't claim Maru as GOAT isn't really relevant in this discussion. Mizenhauer really isn't famous for stating opinions which are popular and I highly doubt that the opinion of the other writers would hinder him from publishing his articles. The "best of GSL" is just a save headline that can't be disputed and just doesn't open the discussion wether Maru can be called GOAT or not, because this wasn't the focus of the article. Funny enough, I'm kind of on your side because I also would rather not call Maru GOAT already but I wouldn't dismiss that perspective as heavily like you're doing it.
There must be a misunderstanding, I'll rewrite the phrase: "It doesn't seem me THAT I wrote facts showed etc etc", as I don't remember I made it seem like an obvious fact.
Ok, sry. My bad. I had the same impression as you're remembering it - that's why I was so harsh now because of my misunderstanding.
On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote: Not all of the writers predicted Serral to win, it was like four said Serral would win, two chose Maru and one predicted Stats; the explanation for that could be Maru going out early in Super Tournament II while also looking less dominant in Code S S3.
Well, could be. At the same time they ranked Maru highest in pre Blizzcon powerrank. Weird stuff.
On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote: Most of the posts here are in fact claiming Maru is the GOAT; I suspect instead that if you made a poll asking everyone if Maru is the GOAT, the majority would think otherwise (we might just wait the results of Nakajin's contest). The most reasonable statement in the wake of Maru's fourth Code S in a row is the one Mizenhauer makes in his article.
As you rightfully said "most posts" isn't a valid criteria but most posters in here are opting for Maru as GOAT. As for the minority-majority thing I want to clarify: you're probably right that the majority wouldn't call Maru GOAT but you made it sound like it would be an overwhelming majority. I think a poll would result into a significant number (maybe 1/3 or so) of voters favoring Maru=GOAT.
I want to say the majority isn't necessarily on the right side, especially when speaking of objective and measurable facts: people convinced of the Earth being flat don't actually render it flat.
Coming to our discussion, I feel that a significant minority would vote for case for Maru as GOAT(due to the inevitable recency bias added to the respect for Code S as the best tournament in sc2), it's just the comments in his favor are overwhelming in number and I do not feel this appropriately mirrors the opinion of most of the people on TL.
Uh, here is the poll, I voted already! Are we sure enough people would see it? Maybe it would be better to post it where it has more visibility(a new thread or something), not to mention people who already replied to this post(showing their support for Maru) are most likely the ones who will see the poll and express their votes.
Lol first you have this fetish with Fallacy of Mass Appeal. Then you say they're not necessarily on the right side.
On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote: So INno is the last contender ?
Taeja and MVP are out ?
You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning.
Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S.
In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet.
Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it.
Adults can agree to disagree right?
I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course.
I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively.
By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history.
I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion.
I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics.
Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title.
It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place.
Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case?
Objectively - those WCS players where Serral got his minor league wins get crushed by Koreans. Except maybe for TY's friend and Neeb.
veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
You joined this forum Monday, 5th of November 2018 and you accuse a whole lot of people of favoritism?
I made an account on this forum rightly after Serral won BlizzCon but I was watching Sc2 tournaments as early as WoL beta. So you found out I love Serral as a player? That's hardly a surprise for everyone.
You seem to be, judging by the few phrases you just wrote to me, at best another one stuck in a distant past when B-team koreans could dominate top foreigners in any tournament and at worst an elitist who only looks at the nationality of a player to decide it he's worth or not. Are you including Scarlett who won Pyeonchang against a top korean? Reynor who eliminated Classic and brought Maru to one hard decider game in Code S before even being allowed to play in WCS? Have you looked at the names who qualified in Code S those last years(NoRegreT?)? You have to respect the level foreigner players have reached in LoTV, koreans are obviously ahead but they are not exactly "crushing", calling WCS a "minor league" is mindlessly derogative.
I am not accusing them of favoritism, after spending a good amount of my active time here on TL discussing with the very same people who are now calling Maru a GOAT, I simply know most of them value Code S as the holiest of tournaments.
Edit: I see no contradiction, I wrote that post before the poll was even made. I have often pointed out my opinion was shared by many when it was basically regarded as senseless, yet something is not necessarily true just because the majority is convinced of that(especially when we are speaking of measurable things and not moral or religious convictions); it's not that easy.
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very inconsistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral in regard of consistency.
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Maru is one of the most consistent player we ever had besides Innovation. Yes, if you check just the champion titles, it doesn't look that shiny, but he was there ALL THE TIME. That's consistency, not that when Terran starts being bad you go into forgotten lands(Innovation)
Maru has so huge consistency that Serral would have to play for another 6 years to beat just his consistency he got in HotS proleague. And remember, Serral plays from 2012(Liquipedia source)
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
It's pretty obvious you didn't watch much pre 2018 because Maru is one of the most consistent players ever. He's almost never had a slump/streak of bad results since early 2013. Even when he's failed he's made up for it almost straight away.
Even back in 2013-14 he either won or went playoffs in four seasons in a row. He's even made playoffs in consecutive seasons even when no other terran could even make consistent ro16.
He's been the sole terran in the playoffs of four GSL seasons. No other player in sc2 history has managed to maintain results like that during periods of obvious imbalance. If that isn't consistency what is?
For some other facts, he's qualified for every Code S since then 2013, except one season where he lost to the best player in the world in Code A. He has ONE ro32 loss in Code S during this time, and right after that he won four in a row.
He also has the most starleague ro8s, ro4s, and championships of any player. He's been either the best terran, or at minimum top 3, pretty much always for over six years now.
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +
WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. + Show Spoiler +
Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map.
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +
WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. + Show Spoiler +
Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map.
I'm with you that these are consistent results. But they aren't "goat-consistent" results. Serral is more consistent since 2018 because he won everything but the last WCS where he placed 2nd. I think Serral's consistency will eventually plummet, too.
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote:
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +
WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. + Show Spoiler +
Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map.
I'm with you that these are consistent results. But they aren't "goat-consistent" results. Serral is more consistent since 2018 because he won everything but the last WCS where he placed 2nd. I think Serral's consistency will eventually plummet, too.
While I do agree with many of your points (Maru was not the best player in 2018, Maru is not the GOAT, Serral > Maru in 2018), Serral hasnt had much success since his Blizzcon and Maru is by far the better player in 2019
I don't think Code S is the be-all-end-all of premier tournaments but it's overall the hardest, and Maru is winning that while Serral lost WCS which is in another planet compared to Code S in terms of talent and difficulty (part of the reason I think Maru is dominating so hard is because I think Terran is overpowered atm, but that's for another topic - he's doing what no other terran is doing)
On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote: I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote:
On April 17 2019 06:42 Xain0n wrote: [quote]
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +
WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. + Show Spoiler +
Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map.
I'm with you that these are consistent results. But they aren't "goat-consistent" results. Serral is more consistent since 2018 because he won everything but the last WCS where he placed 2nd. I think Serral's consistency will eventually plummet, too.
While I do agree with many of your points (Maru was not the best player in 2018, Maru is not the GOAT, Serral > Maru in 2018), Serral hasnt had much success since his Blizzcon and Maru is by far the better player in 2019
I don't think Code S is the be-all-end-all of premier tournaments but it's overall the hardest, and Maru is winning that while Serral lost WCS which is in another planet compared to Code S in terms of talent and difficulty (part of the reason I think Maru is dominating so hard is because I think Terran is overpowered atm, but that's for another topic - he's doing what no other terran is doing)
Serral did nothing during 2012 - 2017, to overcome this he would need to dominate way longer.
Terran OP so we had whole 2 of them in GSL ST 1 I am entertained.
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote: [quote]
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +
WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. + Show Spoiler +
Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map.
I'm with you that these are consistent results. But they aren't "goat-consistent" results. Serral is more consistent since 2018 because he won everything but the last WCS where he placed 2nd. I think Serral's consistency will eventually plummet, too.
While I do agree with many of your points (Maru was not the best player in 2018, Maru is not the GOAT, Serral > Maru in 2018), Serral hasnt had much success since his Blizzcon and Maru is by far the better player in 2019
I don't think Code S is the be-all-end-all of premier tournaments but it's overall the hardest, and Maru is winning that while Serral lost WCS which is in another planet compared to Code S in terms of talent and difficulty (part of the reason I think Maru is dominating so hard is because I think Terran is overpowered atm, but that's for another topic - he's doing what no other terran is doing)
Serral did nothing during 2012 - 2017, to overcome this he would need to dominate way longer.
Terran OP so we had whole 2 of them in GSL ST 1 I am entertained.
Serral may have gone to his first LAN in 2012 but he didn't start playing full time until 2017. Maru was consistent enough throughout the years(Serral's 2018 was more successful but we will never agree on that); Maru's 2019 is better because he won a tournament even if he placed lower in all the others.
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Serral is in the SC2 from 2k12, he had 7 years...
On April 18 2019 20:38 Doink wrote:
On April 18 2019 20:15 ProFalseIdol wrote: [quote]
No, Maru has been dominating since his 2013 Royal Road against all the SC2 Gods in that OSL tournament. He also has been repeatedly put up against Zest when he was ultra God in ProLeague days. That's just a few among his history defining achievements.
Serral might be great, his run might be better than Rogue's. But he still hasn't had enough time to prove himself. All his won is just the same as Neeb did. Aside from his BlizzCon win (a feat that s0s did twice), Neeb has achieved more by winning Korean Cup and going deep in GSL.
"Vocal minority" hah.
Maru's prime started in 2018 when he got the first of his four consecutive GSL wins. Since then he also hasn't had enough time to prove himself. He failed in a very disappointing way in the weekly tournaments so he's definitely not the best player and never was. A good player has consistent results.
Maru is like Reynor. A good but very incosistent player. If you want Maru to be considered the best player of all time he has to catch up to Serral regarding consistency.
Check proleague and its stats(or games) Check PvZCraft and who was the best Terran Check no-existing starleagues
Then return and apologize.
Why? His results in Proleague don't change that he seems to be unable to deliver in weekend tourneys. It's not just that he can't deliver, he outright fails in those tournaments like an average player. He's definitely not the best player.
You say he's inconsistent and that's not true.
Edit> Also his prime didn't start in 2018, he was the best player of proleague, he was one of the best Terrans of HotS. His prime didn't start in 2k18, he just started to win something, that's the only difference.
Okayyy, so Maru dominated the last four GSLs but got crushed in the weekend tourneys. And you say he's a consistent player. It's senseless to argue with hardcore fanboys.
Maru barely got "crushed" in Weekenders. Let's have a look at his weekender-results since his breakthrough in 2013: + Show Spoiler +
WCS 2013 Season 2 Finals: 9th-12th WCS 2013 Season 3 Finals: Ro4 WCS 2013 Global Finals: Ro4 2013 Hot6ix Cup: Ro4 2014 GSL Global Championship: 5th-6th 2015 IEM Taipei: 2nd 2015 IEM World Championship: Ro8 2015 Kespa Cup 1: Ro16 2015 Kespa Cup 2: Ro8 2015 WCS Global Finals: Ro16 2016 Kespa Cup: Ro8 2017 IEM Gyeonggi: Ro8 2016 WESG: 2nd 2017 GSL Super Tournament: Ro8 2017 IEM Shanghai: 9th-12th 2018 IEM Katowice: Ro4 2017 WESG: 1st 2018 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro8 2018 GSL vs The World: Ro4 2018 GSL Super Tournament 2: Ro8 2018 WCS Global Finals: Ro8 2019 IEM Katowice 13th-16th 2018 WESG: 3rd 2019 GSL Super Tournament 1: Ro16
So we have 1x 1rst 2x 2nd 6x Ro4 or 3rd 9x Ro8 or 5th-6th 6x Ro16 or 9th-12th
Those are quite some high placements on a consistent basis. Also one had to consider that there can be quite some close matches and knockouts by the eventual winner. + Show Spoiler +
Like today, when Maru looked great vs (also great looking) Stats but Stats won his gamble on the last map.
I'm with you that these are consistent results. But they aren't "goat-consistent" results. Serral is more consistent since 2018 because he won everything but the last WCS where he placed 2nd. I think Serral's consistency will eventually plummet, too.
While I do agree with many of your points (Maru was not the best player in 2018, Maru is not the GOAT, Serral > Maru in 2018), Serral hasnt had much success since his Blizzcon and Maru is by far the better player in 2019
I don't think Code S is the be-all-end-all of premier tournaments but it's overall the hardest, and Maru is winning that while Serral lost WCS which is in another planet compared to Code S in terms of talent and difficulty (part of the reason I think Maru is dominating so hard is because I think Terran is overpowered atm, but that's for another topic - he's doing what no other terran is doing)
Serral did nothing during 2012 - 2017, to overcome this he would need to dominate way longer.
Terran OP so we had whole 2 of them in GSL ST 1 I am entertained.
All I said was serral was the best player in 2018 imo. I dont think he is anywhere near the GOAT, a bonjwa, nor was he the best player in 2012-2017
It seems that some people are using the title Greatest of all time as a substitute for Bonjwa. GOAT is something that exist, we just haven't agreed on any one player. There has to be someone (or more than 1 player) that is best. They don't have to be dominant, just better than the rest. Who are the contenders? Serral has had 1 great year That isn't very much in the long term, but that is amazing in the moment. INnoVation has been on and off for a loong time, with a big amplitude on his sinus wave (high peaks and deep valleys). Maru has been more on than off with high placements throughout his career. Maru has been the last terran a whole lot. I think it was in 2014 that people started seeing a pattern with Maru, that when other terrans falter, he's still holding his own. Is MVP still considered? He got shafted by his body. What if he quit when still on top? I've seen Life being mentioned a few times. He got himself banned while on top of his game. Is the memory of being great that strong? Serral could quit now and just have the mediocre 2017, the amazing 2018 and a strong start of 2019. Life started strong, skipping the mediocre first year, but he didn't have that amazing year, just great ones. Reynor has also been mentioned as an inconsistent player. Reynor has been playing for such a short time. He has 2nd place as his worst placement in WCS and he has managed to get to the ro16 of code S where the ro4 Neeb and winner Maru knocked him out.
Who else is in contention? sOs, soO, Stats? If we are to talk about GOAT, then we need to compare the players. So many posts are about discrediting or elevating a single player. That is not how comparisons work.
EPT
INnoVation
