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On April 16 2019 14:06 Azzur wrote:
Even though the finals may not have had the greatest games, I think theorycrafters may look back at it and see that it had many interesting nuances that may influence the meta in the upcoming year.
- Classic came preped with a quick attack to deny/slow the natural expand. Maru countered with the blind bunker but if the blind bunker becomes the norm surely protoss can exploit this by playing super greedy? Because of this, players would have to figure out a solution to this.
- Tempest rush - what can i say?? Super innovative. And if it was Special that came up with it, kudos to him.
- BCs vs Protoss lategame. In the pass, I see terrans crumble to mass tempest play but Maru seemed to have found a solution? I think this area is worth exploring further.
I think you're right on the bunker mind/meta-game. I wondered why Classic didn't go full macro in game 5 right from the beginning. Maru was super paranoid due to all the proxy stuff in previous games and perhaps Classic not being as much ahead as he could've been economically made the difference in the lategame.
For the BCs vs Protoss lategame: it is worth watching Creator vs TY in SuperTournament2 in 2018. They had an ultra long macro game with mass BCs vs mass tempests with Creator bating TY into unfavorable warps and TY forcing recalls to bases where he waited with the 2nd half of his army.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 16 2019 07:44 DSh1 wrote:
Some would say 1 Blizzcon >> any number of Code Esses.
Then it's easy, sOs is GOAT. End of discussion. I'm fine with this either.
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On April 16 2019 12:34 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 09:50 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 08:59 ValM wrote:On April 16 2019 07:55 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote:So INno is the last contender ?  Taeja and MVP are out ? You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning. Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S. In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet. Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it. Adults can agree to disagree right? I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course. I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with. Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively. By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history. I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion. I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics. Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title.
It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves.
Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place.
Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression.
I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all.
I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself).
Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Code S is superior to WCS. While we can discuss the rest of the tournaments and their importance(e.g. GSL vs TW offers a discussion or HSC). Which was the main point of many posters when discussing the Serral dominance over foreigners.
Edit>+ Show Spoiler +
Let's check the last IEM
2 WCS players(Serral, Neeb)
6 Korean Players, 7 Code S players(Neeb is questionable as he didn't qualify for S1 or S2 2019(or I missed him, might have happened)
Blizzcon
2 WCS players(Serral, mjr Special)
6 Korean players, 7 Code S players(we can argue about mjr Special)
In my eyes the tournament with harder players to beat is superior to a tournament with lower quality players. WCS doesn't have the quality in players even if you consider the top names to be Code S players(which they are). Apart from random moments of glory for certain players we can talk about top8 WCS players being at the code S level. That's just eight players... (and I am being generous, I myself consider stable code s level players only Raynor, Scarlett, Neeb, Serral and mjr Special)
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On April 16 2019 21:20 deacon.frost wrote:
Code S is superior to WCS. While we can discuss the rest of the tournaments and their importance(e.g. GSL vs TW offers a discussion or HSC). Which was the main point of many posters when discussing the Serral dominance over foreigners.
Nobody ever said the opposite, it's just WCS tournaments aren't as easy as many make them to be and they cannot be disregarded when discussing of Serral's achievements in 2018.
Edit: I mostly agree with you(Neeb didn't attempt to qualify for Code S in 2019, his results in international tournaments clearly say he is at that level; Special will play in the next Code S season after forfeiting the qualifiers of S1).
Just, what do you mean for "Code S players"? The ones you listed all have ro16 and beyond potential.
If you are speaking of merely qualifying to Code S then a larger portion of WCS players has a shot(NoRegreT qualified for Code S twice winning a bo3 once never reaching ro16 in WCS); if you speak of surviving the first groupstage ro8 seems appropriate.
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On April 16 2019 19:36 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 12:34 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 16 2019 09:50 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 08:59 ValM wrote:On April 16 2019 07:55 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote:So INno is the last contender ? Taeja and MVP are out ? You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning. Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S. In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet. Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it. Adults can agree to disagree right? I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course. I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with. Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively. By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history. I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion. I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics. Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title. It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place. Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression. I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case?
Well that statement that "said facts" would "clearly show Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's" isn't objective at all. And this is what I meant: you're presenting your interpretation of the facts as an objective truth which is just dishonest.
Also that a majority of posters shares your opinions proves nothing, as I mentioned before because Serral (rightfully) caused hype way beyond the well informed SC2 fan. Also the writers were biased in my opinion. I remember how they catched by the hype, too, pre Blizzcon, when they all predicted Serral winning besided there was no objective hint that this would be more likely than Maru winning (not that this was a unrealistic prediction but hype is the only possible explanation why they all voted for Serral). Thus it is apparent that the writer's bias was reassured by Serral's win at Blizzcon while Maru's feat was kind of "forgotten" as it seemed not as impactful anymore.
Still I don't see that a vocal minority is voting for Maru as GOAT here in the thread. Minority of the whole somewhat interested fandom - ok, then your point is valid but that doesn't mean anything because this is probably the case for almost any topic on TL. Minority in this discussion? Not really as it is at least a big section of the posters here.
That TL writers didn't claim Maru as GOAT isn't really relevant in this discussion. Mizenhauer really isn't famous for stating opinions which are popular and I highly doubt that the opinion of the other writers would hinder him from publishing his articles. The "best of GSL" is just a save headline that can't be disputed and just doesn't open the discussion wether Maru can be called GOAT or not, because this wasn't the focus of the article.
Funny enough, I'm kind of on your side because I also would rather not call Maru GOAT already but I wouldn't dismiss that perspective as heavily like you're doing it.
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On April 16 2019 22:41 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 19:36 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 12:34 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 16 2019 09:50 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 08:59 ValM wrote:On April 16 2019 07:55 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote:So INno is the last contender ? Taeja and MVP are out ? You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning. Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S. In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet. Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it. Adults can agree to disagree right? I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course. I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with. Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively. By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history. I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion. I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics. Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title. It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place. Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression. I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case? Well that statement that "said facts" would "clearly show Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's" isn't objective at all. And this is what I meant: you're presenting your interpretation of the facts as an objective truth which is just dishonest. Also that a majority of posters shares your opinions proves nothing, as I mentioned before because Serral (rightfully) caused hype way beyond the well informed SC2 fan. Also the writers were biased in my opinion. I remember how they catched by the hype, too, pre Blizzcon, when they all predicted Serral winning besided there was no objective hint that this would be more likely than Maru winning (not that this was a unrealistic prediction but hype is the only possible explanation why they all voted for Serral). Thus it is apparent that the writer's bias was reassured by Serral's win at Blizzcon while Maru's feat was kind of "forgotten" as it seemed not as impactful anymore. Still I don't see that a vocal minority is voting for Maru as GOAT here in the thread. Minority of the whole somewhat interested fandom - ok, then your point is valid but that doesn't mean anything because this is probably the case for almost any topic on TL. Minority in this discussion? Not really as it is at least a big section of the posters here. That TL writers didn't claim Maru as GOAT isn't really relevant in this discussion. Mizenhauer really isn't famous for stating opinions which are popular and I highly doubt that the opinion of the other writers would hinder him from publishing his articles. The "best of GSL" is just a save headline that can't be disputed and just doesn't open the discussion wether Maru can be called GOAT or not, because this wasn't the focus of the article. Funny enough, I'm kind of on your side because I also would rather not call Maru GOAT already but I wouldn't dismiss that perspective as heavily like you're doing it.
There must be a misunderstanding, I'll rewrite the phrase: "It doesn't seem me THAT I wrote facts showed etc etc", as I don't remember I made it seem like an obvious fact.
Not all of the writers predicted Serral to win, it was like four said Serral would win, two chose Maru and one predicted Stats; the explanation for that could be Maru going out early in Super Tournament II while also looking less dominant in Code S S3.
Most of the posts here are in fact claiming Maru is the GOAT; I suspect instead that if you made a poll asking everyone if Maru is the GOAT, the majority would think otherwise (we might just wait the results of Nakajin's contest).
The most reasonable statement in the wake of Maru's fourth Code S in a row is the one Mizenhauer makes in his article.
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On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 22:41 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 16 2019 19:36 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 12:34 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 16 2019 09:50 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 08:59 ValM wrote:On April 16 2019 07:55 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote:So INno is the last contender ? Taeja and MVP are out ? You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning. Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S. In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet. Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it. Adults can agree to disagree right? I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course. I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with. Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively. By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history. I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion. I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics. Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title. It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place. Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression. I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case? Well that statement that "said facts" would "clearly show Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's" isn't objective at all. And this is what I meant: you're presenting your interpretation of the facts as an objective truth which is just dishonest. Also that a majority of posters shares your opinions proves nothing, as I mentioned before because Serral (rightfully) caused hype way beyond the well informed SC2 fan. Also the writers were biased in my opinion. I remember how they catched by the hype, too, pre Blizzcon, when they all predicted Serral winning besided there was no objective hint that this would be more likely than Maru winning (not that this was a unrealistic prediction but hype is the only possible explanation why they all voted for Serral). Thus it is apparent that the writer's bias was reassured by Serral's win at Blizzcon while Maru's feat was kind of "forgotten" as it seemed not as impactful anymore. Still I don't see that a vocal minority is voting for Maru as GOAT here in the thread. Minority of the whole somewhat interested fandom - ok, then your point is valid but that doesn't mean anything because this is probably the case for almost any topic on TL. Minority in this discussion? Not really as it is at least a big section of the posters here. That TL writers didn't claim Maru as GOAT isn't really relevant in this discussion. Mizenhauer really isn't famous for stating opinions which are popular and I highly doubt that the opinion of the other writers would hinder him from publishing his articles. The "best of GSL" is just a save headline that can't be disputed and just doesn't open the discussion wether Maru can be called GOAT or not, because this wasn't the focus of the article. Funny enough, I'm kind of on your side because I also would rather not call Maru GOAT already but I wouldn't dismiss that perspective as heavily like you're doing it. There must be a misunderstanding, I'll rewrite the phrase: "It doesn't seem me THAT I wrote facts showed etc etc", as I don't remember I made it seem like an obvious fact.
Ok, sry. My bad. I had the same impression as you're remembering it - that's why I was so harsh now because of my misunderstanding.
On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote:
Not all of the writers predicted Serral to win, it was like four said Serral would win, two chose Maru and one predicted Stats; the explanation for that could be Maru going out early in Super Tournament II while also looking less dominant in Code S S3.
Well, could be. At the same time they ranked Maru highest in pre Blizzcon powerrank. Weird stuff.
On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote:
Most of the posts here are in fact claiming Maru is the GOAT; I suspect instead that if you made a poll asking everyone if Maru is the GOAT, the majority would think otherwise (we might just wait the results of Nakajin's contest).
The most reasonable statement in the wake of Maru's fourth Code S in a row is the one Mizenhauer makes in his article.
As you rightfully said "most posts" isn't a valid criteria but most posters in here are opting for Maru as GOAT.
As for the minority-majority thing I want to clarify: you're probably right that the majority wouldn't call Maru GOAT but you made it sound like it would be an overwhelming majority. I think a poll would result into a significant number (maybe 1/3 or so) of voters favoring Maru=GOAT.
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SOMEONE MAKE THE POLL PLS!!!!!
HE IS GOAT TO ME
and yeah, are people saying WCS with region lock is just as hard as GSL people who just started watching sc2? cause anyone who has been watching a while remembers how naniwa had like a flawless run in one MLG, pre korean invasion. AFTER the invasion, naniwa was still a beast, but he wasn't dominating. similar story for many foreigners. the truly good ones could hold their own, but the koreans were taking their lunch money
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*Sigh*, so her it is:
Poll: Is Maru the GOAT?Not sure, but he has a claim in the discussion. (455) 46% Absolutely GOAT! (399) 41% Absolutely not! (61) 6% First he has to win WCS, Blizzcon, HSC, IEM and Cheesadelphia!!!1 (47) 5% He still has to gather more trophies. (22) 2% 984 total votes Your vote: Is Maru the GOAT? (Vote): Absolutely GOAT!
(Vote): Not sure, but he has a claim in the discussion.
(Vote): He still has to gather more trophies.
(Vote): Absolutely not!
(Vote): First he has to win WCS, Blizzcon, HSC, IEM and Cheesadelphia!!!1
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On April 16 2019 23:53 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 22:41 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 16 2019 19:36 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 12:34 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 16 2019 09:50 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 08:59 ValM wrote:On April 16 2019 07:55 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote:So INno is the last contender ? Taeja and MVP are out ? You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning. Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S. In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet. Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it. Adults can agree to disagree right? I would not dare to say such a thing if it only was a fantasy of my own; that the one claiming Maru is the GOAT is a vocal minority is a speculation I am making, based on the fact a similar phenomena could be observed in the Serral vs Maru argument some months ago: on TL, the volume of the actual posts favoring Maru was disproportionately high if compared to the various polls inevitably favoring Serral. I think the same is happening now but I might be wrong, of course. I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with. Maru's recent Code S results are most likely the most impressive achievement a player reached in the same competition in the history of Sc2; players had won a total of three overall or two consecutive times before but never four, not to mention consecutively. By itself, however, this doesn't make Maru a GOAT; at the moment, he is just a step below the actual contenders for the title. Maru has been playing for almost nine years already and he is at his peak now, I won't be surprised if he eventually ends up truly becoming the greatest player in Sc2's history. I really respect your mostly respectful tone in discussions but I think you're crossing a line here in terms of reputability. You're basicaly calling your own opinion the only possible fact-based opinion that exists - at least in comes across that way every time you're stressing that this isn't just your opinion. I don't think that the "Maru-vs-Serral" and the "Maru GOAT?"-discussions should be compared so easily. While polls wether Maru or Serral is GO2018 were highly responded by more casual SC2 fans which were inspired by the greatness of Serral a discussion about Maru based on his 4th consecutice GSL win is more a discussion among the common TL-visitors. One can easily see that based on the length of threads on those topics. Calling Maru GOAT is a valid posiion at this time, I think. Winning 4 consecutive GSLs is indeed a factor that can outshine (you used the same argument for Serral's WCS wins, btw) additional tournament wins by others. I'm still not sure about the GOAT-question. I'd rather dodge it for now because nobody is really convincing me enough to claim this title. It doesn't seem me I said facts clearly showed Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's; that opinion is indeed not only mine since it is shared by many posters and by TL's writers themselves. Serral not playing in Code S and Maru not playing in WCS makes it hard to correctly evaluate who was better, so that both claims are understandable and respectable no matter how strongly and firmly I substained mine; what I actually said about Serral's consecutive WCS victories is that winning is never easy and no victory can be taken for granted when people were stating any top korean would have achieved the same if they were to play in Serral's place. Similarly, I am now making a supposition about the vocal minority as I mostly see the same names making the call for Maru being GOAT; veteran posters, for sure, but known for being especially fond of Code S as the ultimately superior tournament. As I previously stated, I might be wrong, that's my impression. I think there are at least three players in contention for the GOAT title at the moment, I am not even completely sure who would I pick myself since none of them is clearly ahead in all. I am, however, strongly convinced(and that is where you are partially right) that Maru is not up there yet, since after listing his achievements the only way I see for him to be considered a GOAT is overrating his Code S victories(and that's a feat by itself). Maru indeed is the greatest player in GSL's history as stated in the last article published by TL; don't you think the writers would have made GOAT calls themselves in a celebratory article if they believed that could be the case? Well that statement that "said facts" would "clearly show Serral's 2018 was objectively superior than Maru's" isn't objective at all. And this is what I meant: you're presenting your interpretation of the facts as an objective truth which is just dishonest. Also that a majority of posters shares your opinions proves nothing, as I mentioned before because Serral (rightfully) caused hype way beyond the well informed SC2 fan. Also the writers were biased in my opinion. I remember how they catched by the hype, too, pre Blizzcon, when they all predicted Serral winning besided there was no objective hint that this would be more likely than Maru winning (not that this was a unrealistic prediction but hype is the only possible explanation why they all voted for Serral). Thus it is apparent that the writer's bias was reassured by Serral's win at Blizzcon while Maru's feat was kind of "forgotten" as it seemed not as impactful anymore. Still I don't see that a vocal minority is voting for Maru as GOAT here in the thread. Minority of the whole somewhat interested fandom - ok, then your point is valid but that doesn't mean anything because this is probably the case for almost any topic on TL. Minority in this discussion? Not really as it is at least a big section of the posters here. That TL writers didn't claim Maru as GOAT isn't really relevant in this discussion. Mizenhauer really isn't famous for stating opinions which are popular and I highly doubt that the opinion of the other writers would hinder him from publishing his articles. The "best of GSL" is just a save headline that can't be disputed and just doesn't open the discussion wether Maru can be called GOAT or not, because this wasn't the focus of the article. Funny enough, I'm kind of on your side because I also would rather not call Maru GOAT already but I wouldn't dismiss that perspective as heavily like you're doing it. There must be a misunderstanding, I'll rewrite the phrase: "It doesn't seem me THAT I wrote facts showed etc etc", as I don't remember I made it seem like an obvious fact. Ok, sry. My bad. I had the same impression as you're remembering it - that's why I was so harsh now because of my misunderstanding. Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote:
Not all of the writers predicted Serral to win, it was like four said Serral would win, two chose Maru and one predicted Stats; the explanation for that could be Maru going out early in Super Tournament II while also looking less dominant in Code S S3.
Well, could be. At the same time they ranked Maru highest in pre Blizzcon powerrank. Weird stuff. Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 23:04 Xain0n wrote:
Most of the posts here are in fact claiming Maru is the GOAT; I suspect instead that if you made a poll asking everyone if Maru is the GOAT, the majority would think otherwise (we might just wait the results of Nakajin's contest).
The most reasonable statement in the wake of Maru's fourth Code S in a row is the one Mizenhauer makes in his article.
As you rightfully said "most posts" isn't a valid criteria but most posters in here are opting for Maru as GOAT. As for the minority-majority thing I want to clarify: you're probably right that the majority wouldn't call Maru GOAT but you made it sound like it would be an overwhelming majority. I think a poll would result into a significant number (maybe 1/3 or so) of voters favoring Maru=GOAT.
I want to say the majority isn't necessarily on the right side, especially when speaking of objective and measurable facts: people convinced of the Earth being flat don't actually render it flat.
Coming to our discussion, I feel that a significant minority would vote for case for Maru as GOAT(due to the inevitable recency bias added to the respect for Code S as the best tournament in sc2), it's just the comments in his favor are overwhelming in number and I do not feel this appropriately mirrors the opinion of most of the people on TL.
Uh, here is the poll, I voted already! Are we sure enough people would see it? Maybe it would be better to post it where it has more visibility(a new thread or something), not to mention people who already replied to this post(showing their support for Maru) are most likely the ones who will see the poll and express their votes.
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On April 16 2019 09:50 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 08:59 ValM wrote:On April 16 2019 07:55 Xain0n wrote:On April 16 2019 04:51 DieuCure wrote:So INno is the last contender ? Taeja and MVP are out ? You are forgetting Life; Inno is the only GOAT contender who is still active and can keep winning. Maru is not up there yet in terms of career achievements yet, you guys are blinded by the fact he won four consecutive Code S. In any of case, I think my point is clear enough; I would actually bet most of the comments here are made by the same vocal minority who thinks that Maru also was the most accomplished player in 2018 and that, in reality, not many are convinced Maru is the GOAT yet. Kudos to your tenacity man. You have been so persistent in arguing about this in each thread I walk to its almost impressive. Obviously it means a lot to you. But calling the people who have a different opinion a "vocal minority" doesn't add anything to what you're saying in fact weakens it. Adults can agree to disagree right? I find it relevant that Maru's celebration article just published assesses him as the "best player in GSL history". That's a title suffragated by facts and a very reasonable claim I can agree with.
So who would you say is a better player all time than Maru? You shouldn't say Serral because Maru has a way more accomplished career than him. Serral only had about a year of dominance. Maru's achievements were still competitive with Serral's even at the same time as Serral's amazing run since he was dominating GSL like no one ever has before which is probably the most difficult tournament in the world. And on top of that he has consistently been a super elite player since like 2011 or 2012, so much longer than Serral who pretty much just started being an elite force one to one and a half years ago.
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On April 16 2019 00:23 fishjie wrote:maru is a god why are people still crying about him being bonjwa goat legend? makes no sense. he can lose all his games after this and it still makes no difference. serral has already fallen off, losing in WCS which was "his" tournament and also in the other tourneys. game over man what a glorious resume https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Maru
The last four tourneys that they both played in, they never met because Maru was the one that got knocked out early. That's a pretty bad streak. To make matters worse, Serral won two of them and placed 2nd in another (GSL vs. World, Blizzcon, IEM Katowice, WESG). He also won a Homestory cup in that timeframe and just placed 2nd in the most recent WCS. While I said earlier in this thread that I believe Maru is the best at this moment, I can't see much of an argument that it's "game over" for Serral.
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On April 17 2019 02:01 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 00:23 fishjie wrote:maru is a god why are people still crying about him being bonjwa goat legend? makes no sense. he can lose all his games after this and it still makes no difference. serral has already fallen off, losing in WCS which was "his" tournament and also in the other tourneys. game over man what a glorious resume https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Maru The last four tourneys that they both played in, they never met because Maru was the one that got knocked out early. That's a pretty bad streak. To make matters worse, Serral won two of them and placed 2nd in another (GSL vs. World, Blizzcon, IEM Katowice, WESG). He also won a Homestory cup in that timeframe and just placed 2nd in the most recent WCS. While I said earlier in this thread that I believe Maru is the best at this moment, I can't see much of an argument that it's "game over" for Serral.
didn't win IEM
didn't win WESG
didn't win WCS EU - which is HIS tournament
the whole narrative in 2018 was that serral was completely unbeatable, and he showed it. but 2019 starts and in tourneys with koreans, AND a tourney with NO koreans, he did not clinch the gold
maru -
4X GSL CHAMPION BACK TO BACK TO BACK TO BACK
anyway, great poll, looks like 50% of people say maru is goat, but it should be its own thread so we get more votes and its more visible
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Those are two separate and very different matters.
Serral didn't win tournaments in 2019, his showing and results have been good enough to suggest he didn't magically cease to be a very top player; he is not dominating Sc2 anymore, that's for sure.
Maru in 2019 did worse than Serral in both IEM and WESG but he went on to win his fourth consecutive Code S; that would justify a #1 on a Power Ranking made now. Despite that, Maru isn't looking as dominant as he was after Code S S1 in 2018; I don't think there is a clear best player in the world right now.
If you speak of career accomplishments, even if I love Serral I can't in all honesty affirm his accomplishments are better than Maru's; If I had to make a GOAT list, Serral would be around the top 10.
The ones who are ahead of Maru(and, I repeat, should seem more accomplished without recency and Code S bias) are Life, Inno and Mvp; Maru is kind of an anti-Taeja due to the lack of international successes(yes, he won WESG but he's 6-1 in favor of korean premier tournaments): he won seven Premiers to eleven but his successes came in(supposedly) harder and more prestigious tournaments.
I am taking into consideration top placements and Major victories as well(HSC sometimes are Major, sometimes are Premier with the only difference being 2k given to the first place); not sure how to rate career spans, a long career seems good to me if there is consistency at the highest level and conversely bad if a luminous peak is shadowed by years of nothingness.
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On April 17 2019 02:19 fishjie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 02:01 Kitai wrote:On April 16 2019 00:23 fishjie wrote:maru is a god why are people still crying about him being bonjwa goat legend? makes no sense. he can lose all his games after this and it still makes no difference. serral has already fallen off, losing in WCS which was "his" tournament and also in the other tourneys. game over man what a glorious resume https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Maru The last four tourneys that they both played in, they never met because Maru was the one that got knocked out early. That's a pretty bad streak. To make matters worse, Serral won two of them and placed 2nd in another (GSL vs. World, Blizzcon, IEM Katowice, WESG). He also won a Homestory cup in that timeframe and just placed 2nd in the most recent WCS. While I said earlier in this thread that I believe Maru is the best at this moment, I can't see much of an argument that it's "game over" for Serral. didn't win IEM didn't win WESG didn't win WCS EU - which is HIS tournament the whole narrative in 2018 was that serral was completely unbeatable, and he showed it. but 2019 starts and in tourneys with koreans, AND a tourney with NO koreans, he did not clinch the gold maru - 4X GSL CHAMPION BACK TO BACK TO BACK TO BACK anyway, great poll, looks like 50% of people say maru is goat, but it should be its own thread so we get more votes and its more visible
I don't think it's a very rational argument if your measuring stick for players is a binary "won entire tournament" or "accomplished nothing." By that line of thinking, soO's only value is an IEM and a kespa cup and he's been one of the worst GSL players of all time based on the number he competed in and "didn't win."
Also, by your own measuring stick, Maru has "lost" literally every non GSL premier tournament for the last 2 years except for one WESG.
He's been consistently dominant in one tournament for a year and that's it. Personally, I don't think I'll be ready to crown anyone a GOAT until they can consistently demonstrate their awesomeness in weekenders and preparation tournaments alike - Innovation comes the closest to that bar imo.
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ok let me rephrase my last post. IF serral had won WESG, IEM, and WCS, then you could make an incredibly strong case that serral is still the best player in the world and equal to maru. however, with his recent string of losses, he is out of the contention for GOAT. my measuring stick is only for GOAT, not in terms of accomplishments. sorry if i didn't communicate it clearly, obviously serral will go down in sc2 history as one of the best, no argument there at all.
and yeah obviously soo is awesome, and getting to multiple finals, back to back to back to back, is sick. but is he GOAT? no. but does he have amazing accomplishments? absolutely.
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I made an extra thread for the poll now 
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On April 17 2019 03:10 fishjie wrote:
ok let me rephrase my last post. IF serral had won WESG, IEM, and WCS, then you could make an incredibly strong case that serral is still the best player in the world and equal to maru. however, with his recent string of losses, he is out of the contention for GOAT. my measuring stick is only for GOAT, not in terms of accomplishments. sorry if i didn't communicate it clearly, obviously serral will go down in sc2 history as one of the best, no argument there at all.
and yeah obviously soo is awesome, and getting to multiple finals, back to back to back to back, is sick. but is he GOAT? no. but does he have amazing accomplishments? absolutely.
Ah, I see where you're coming from. I also think Maru is stronger at the moment than Serral, but am just hesitant to call anyone GOAT right now.
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On April 17 2019 03:27 fronkschnonk wrote:I made an extra thread for the poll now
We can now safely say my theory was wrong and the people reputing Maru to be GOAT are waay more than "vocal minority".
My opinion does not change, I am quite sure results are on my side and that's due to recency bias even over Code S bias; I'm impressed nevertheless.
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EPT
