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On December 04 2018 18:27 nanaoei wrote:
what is your suggestion to making carriers be less 'OP' in team games?
because i played team games back before this recent change and i can think of 4 solutions off the top.
1. punish new bases
2. taking your own bases
3. mixing in air, all you need to do is kill the carriers once.
4. encompassing all of the above, scouting.
the units are pretty trivial when you know they are coming and you know how to deal with phoenixes as a team.
What I meant is that Blizzard let Carriers be OP in team games for years. They have probably solved it now by increasing interceptor build time, but it should have been done much earlier.
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that's the point i'm referring to. it was never really an issue unless you and your teammates were playing it poorly, or had no idea the carriers were happening.
i have over 5k games in team as random masters and don't recall the overpoweredness of the unit.
right now you can easily kill all interceptors using any T1 ground to air unit.
even so, the change was for 1v1, not for games across the board. i don't think they have ever balanced for team games at all. however, i think you could say the map pool for various seasons of team 2v2 & 3v3 have been awful.
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The only T1 unit that i can see winning against critical mass interceps are marines. And that is only if the toss is brain dead (fighting on open field, only carriers). The big reason carriers are op is because they fuck up the ai that will attack the interceps. So you can mix everything else in (meaning void rays). Even if the toss looses the fight with the interceps gone he can just fly away thanks to these awful maps. And then he can rebuild the interceps of a single carrier for the price of ~2.5 marines ...
The map design is also so awful that if they are "smart" enough it's close to impossible to stop them with only ground units before they reach air, because all players are in the same spot, with 2 expansions for each.
So you don't have to break the defence of a single player, but of all 3 and on top they get rewarded for spamming cans at the small entrance into their base by getting 2 expansions for "free".
So you either break the defence or fail and irrelevant of the outcome the game is over.
Instead of making the game interesting by spacing players out and revolving the game about scouting and territory control it is dumbed down immensely into a do nothing and amass your op army to win.
There is a reason that in 90% of the games i play i see canrush (thx again for these "great" maps) and/or toss air.
And i see a lot of lesser capable players being top masters just because of the op of this stuff.
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On December 04 2018 18:03 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2018 15:24 RealityTheGreat wrote:
Only for Serral uthermal Major ShowTime Neeb scarlett Ppl seem to forget Reynor :/ Show nested quote +Not necessarily lower quality games, Serral is playing at possibly the highest zerg level we have every seen in sc2, I know that some pro really hyped serral level of play like this but come on, Taeja just proved how wrong it was. He is amazing but that's not the hightest skill area, even for zerg gameplay.
That doesn't mean anything. Serral just was having bad games by his standard; he is literally another level, just look at how he played at BlizzCon.
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On December 04 2018 18:56 nanaoei wrote:
that's the point i'm referring to. it was never really an issue unless you and your teammates were playing it poorly, or had no idea the carriers were happening.
i have over 5k games in team as random masters and don't recall the overpoweredness of the unit.
right now you can easily kill all interceptors using any T1 ground to air unit.
even so, the change was for 1v1, not for games across the board. i don't think they have ever balanced for team games at all. however, i think you could say the map pool for various seasons of team 2v2 & 3v3 have been awful.
Then you haven't played enough. Carriers alone allow absolute trash players to play in masters 1 3v3 because they are so op, these guys just sit there making probes and carriers with 60 apm while two other players focus on defence, regardless of all the answers availablpe, just the simple fact that these gold lvl players can get to masters by abusing carriers is enough to warrant a nerf.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 04 2018 22:28 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 18:56 nanaoei wrote:
that's the point i'm referring to. it was never really an issue unless you and your teammates were playing it poorly, or had no idea the carriers were happening.
i have over 5k games in team as random masters and don't recall the overpoweredness of the unit.
right now you can easily kill all interceptors using any T1 ground to air unit.
even so, the change was for 1v1, not for games across the board. i don't think they have ever balanced for team games at all. however, i think you could say the map pool for various seasons of team 2v2 & 3v3 have been awful. Then you haven't played enough. Carriers alone allow absolute trash players to play in masters 1 3v3 because they are so op, these guys just sit there making probes and carriers with 60 apm while two other players focus on defence, regardless of all the answers availablpe, just the simple fact that these gold lvl players can get to masters by abusing carriers is enough to warrant a nerf.
This game isn;t balanced around 3v3. You can't get to masters with this strategy in 1v1, can you?
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On December 04 2018 14:48 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 07:54 RealEarlGamer wrote:On August 30 2018 13:31 xelnaga_empire wrote:On August 30 2018 08:20 Rodya wrote:
I really can't empathize with people that say that region lock is a success because they feel better about watching region locked events. A lot of people will not watch SC2 anymore if the Korean scene dies But the opposite is true. When foreigners perform better, the viewership has gone up. Viewership for WCS Valencia and GSL vs the World have been off the charts compared to previous years. This belief that SC2 has to have a thriving scene in Korea is nonsense. Other successful games out there don't require a single country to keep the popularity of the game up. What matters is total viewership. SC2 always had poor Korean viewership. If foreigners take over the SC2 scene, it may possibly lead to higher SC2 viewership numbers overall. And lower quality games, fuck yeah. Serral vs Reynor at Valentia (i think it was there) finals was much better than any GSL Code S final this year. So I don't know about that quality...
he's talking about the skill level we see - not about how entertaining the games are.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 05 2018 02:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 14:48 hiroshOne wrote:On December 04 2018 07:54 RealEarlGamer wrote:On August 30 2018 13:31 xelnaga_empire wrote:On August 30 2018 08:20 Rodya wrote:
I really can't empathize with people that say that region lock is a success because they feel better about watching region locked events. A lot of people will not watch SC2 anymore if the Korean scene dies But the opposite is true. When foreigners perform better, the viewership has gone up. Viewership for WCS Valencia and GSL vs the World have been off the charts compared to previous years. This belief that SC2 has to have a thriving scene in Korea is nonsense. Other successful games out there don't require a single country to keep the popularity of the game up. What matters is total viewership. SC2 always had poor Korean viewership. If foreigners take over the SC2 scene, it may possibly lead to higher SC2 viewership numbers overall. And lower quality games, fuck yeah. Serral vs Reynor at Valentia (i think it was there) finals was much better than any GSL Code S final this year. So I don't know about that quality... he's talking about the skill level we see - not about how entertaining the games are.
Well, maybe Code S finals, but Maru v Rogue RO8 Season 2(I believe) was top notch TvZ quality you hardly see in foreigner lands. It's just GSL mistake they didn't put Maru and Rogue on the other side as Blizzard did with Serral  Anyway, considering it was RO8 Rogue it's even more impressive
And Maru TY was great. (and the fact TY died to his own strategy is even more yummy).
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Sorry to necro this thread, but after the performance of the foreigners in GSL vs the World, I think this subject deserves discussion again. I think the best in the foreign scene may have caught up to the best in the Korean scene by this tournament.
It was mainly Serral last year that was a step above the Korean players. But more and more foreign players are capable of beating Korean players these days.
The demise of Pro-League probably contributed to the lower skill of Koreans. But some of the Koreans are getting old too (Classic, Soo, etc), while the foreign scene still has young blood coming in such as Reynor, Clem, etc. Because there is young blood coming in the foreign scene, but there is no young blood coming into Korea, the balance will tip more and more towards the foreign scene in the coming years.
This GSL vs the World won't be the last time that 2 foreigners make it to the finals over the top Koreans. We will have more and more tournaments in the future where the foreign players will outperform the Korean players.
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The death of Pro League and the second coming of Brood War has finally put the koreans at even odds with foreigners, simple as that. For a decade koreans had the vastly superior training environment compared to all other regions. Now we have a level playing field and it's really interesting to watch.
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On August 18 2019 02:54 xelnaga_empire wrote:
Sorry to necro this thread, but after the performance of the foreigners in GSL vs the World, I think this subject deserves discussion again. I think the best in the foreign scene may have caught up to the best in the Korean scene by this tournament.
It was mainly Serral last year that was a step above the Korean players. But more and more foreign players are capable of beating Korean players these days.
The demise of Pro-League probably contributed to the lower skill of Koreans. But some of the Koreans are getting old too (Classic, Soo, etc), while the foreign scene still has young blood coming in such as Reynor, Clem, etc. Because there is young blood coming in the foreign scene, but there is no young blood coming into Korea, the balance will tip more and more towards the foreign scene in the coming years.
This GSL vs the World won't be the last time that 2 foreigners make it to the finals over the top Koreans. We will have more and more tournaments in the future where the foreign players will outperform the Korean players.
*Necros own post*
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Oh god please no, let's not do this again.
How come this thread wasn't necroed after Asus Rog?
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Time to remove region lock now that foreigners are super competitive with the koreans. Otherwise korean skill will just shrink and it will badly hurt the entire starcraft scene. Perfect time to remove the region lock.
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let's be real: while players like neeb, reynor, special, time, showtime can certainly compete, they are still the underdogs vs the top koreans.
it's still just serral being dominant. after him and around him, there is all korean competition.
there certainly is still a minor gap between foreigners and koreans overall - and the KR server is still slightly stronger than the EU server.
The gap is minor though nowadays. Very positive the difference between NA GM and EU GM is larger.
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On August 18 2019 03:50 KalWarkov wrote:
let's be real: while players like neeb, reynor, special, time, showtime can certainly compete, they are still the underdogs vs the top koreans.
it's still just serral being dominant. after him and around him, there is all korean competition.
there certainly is still a minor gap between foreigners and koreans overall - and the KR server is still slightly stronger than the EU server.
The gap is minor though nowadays. Very positive the difference between NA GM and EU GM is larger.
I agree. Gap is smaller but I think some people are trying to use this tournament to push narratives (whether it be death of Korean scene or EU>=KR). imo, they both have a decent point but at the end of the day, top 10 players is still Serral and 9 Koreans (occasionally there may be 2 foreigners in top 10). Koreans are not as strong as before but they are still a cut above the other countries in terms of player's skill. Just because Neeb beats Stats now doesn't erase the fact that he was 0-7 against him in recent matches before this one. Dark was 6-3 against Elazer before this series. Upsets do happen. In fact, I recall GSL Season 2 being upsets galore.
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On August 18 2019 03:37 NinjaNight wrote:
Time to remove region lock now that foreigners are super competitive with the koreans. Otherwise korean skill will just shrink and it will badly hurt the entire starcraft scene. Perfect time to remove the region lock.
God no.
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What are you all talking about? Gap widened as we saw in GSL vs the World:
World >>>>>>>>>> GSL now.
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Do you guys really believe the likes of neeb and elazer can consistently win against top koreans? Not even they themselves believe that. The only non-korean who has proved themselves is serral, all his games were vs koreans and he won them all while elazer and neeb each only played one korean.
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On August 18 2019 05:54 WeakOwl wrote:
Do you guys really believe the likes of neeb and elazer can consistently win against top koreans? Not even they themselves believe that. The only non-korean who has proved themselves is serral, all his games were vs koreans and he won them all while elazer and neeb each only played one korean.
Of course not. Not even koreans can consistently win against koreans. That's why Maru can win a GSL and then get eliminated R1 of super tournament, soo can win katowice and get dropped in ro16 of gsl and so on.
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On August 18 2019 06:49 SSNYC77 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2019 05:54 WeakOwl wrote:
Do you guys really believe the likes of neeb and elazer can consistently win against top koreans? Not even they themselves believe that. The only non-korean who has proved themselves is serral, all his games were vs koreans and he won them all while elazer and neeb each only played one korean. Of course not. Not even koreans can consistently win against koreans. That's why Maru can win a GSL and then get eliminated R1 of super tournament, soo can win katowice and get dropped in ro16 of gsl and so on.
great point.
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EPT
