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On August 19 2019 03:24 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2019 03:07 Phattyasmo wrote:
Yeah, not really. Serral and Elazer made it to the finals, cool. That doesn't mean anything (maybe some are having a bad tournie, maybe Elazer is really on point right now, etc.). Don't forget all the times Koreans have previously wrecked foreigners in tournaments. Serral is very good, yes, but so are many Koreans, and last I checked, there are more good Koreans than one Serral.
If Europeans can keep solid, consistent records, then maybe you can begin to argue your point about "The Gap," but one tournament result is not how to go about claiming this. Neeb beat Stats. Special almost beat Classic. The 2 best Protoss in the world. Time 3-0d soO, who was then beaten by Elazer - who himself beat Dark. 1 result? what? And it's not only this tournament. top end koreans lost quite a few series against top foreigners in the past year. Also, Serral consistantly wins touranments with koreans in them. he's won like 4/7 events with high level korean participation. not 1 single korean has won 2 of those events. he's clearly the best. yes, the next 5-6 players are koreans - but the top 30 of all players has about 10-12 foreigners in it. in the old times, it was 28-29 koreans.
Can you list those 12 foreigners? and the koreans too please, not in a particular order. Just name them.
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On August 19 2019 03:45 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2019 03:24 KalWarkov wrote:On August 19 2019 03:07 Phattyasmo wrote:
Yeah, not really. Serral and Elazer made it to the finals, cool. That doesn't mean anything (maybe some are having a bad tournie, maybe Elazer is really on point right now, etc.). Don't forget all the times Koreans have previously wrecked foreigners in tournaments. Serral is very good, yes, but so are many Koreans, and last I checked, there are more good Koreans than one Serral.
If Europeans can keep solid, consistent records, then maybe you can begin to argue your point about "The Gap," but one tournament result is not how to go about claiming this. Neeb beat Stats. Special almost beat Classic. The 2 best Protoss in the world. Time 3-0d soO, who was then beaten by Elazer - who himself beat Dark. 1 result? what? And it's not only this tournament. top end koreans lost quite a few series against top foreigners in the past year. Also, Serral consistantly wins touranments with koreans in them. he's won like 4/7 events with high level korean participation. not 1 single korean has won 2 of those events. he's clearly the best. yes, the next 5-6 players are koreans - but the top 30 of all players has about 10-12 foreigners in it. in the old times, it was 28-29 koreans. Can you list those 12 foreigners? and the koreans too please, not in a particular order. Just name them.
I guess the ones who were at GSL vs The World plus Lambo/Scarlett? That would be a pretty good top 10 I guess. Maybe Drogo, uThermal, Harstem next? Not sure how many would be in the top 30 overall though.
Edit: I think 8 or 9 are top 30.
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On August 19 2019 03:48 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2019 03:45 Argonauta wrote:On August 19 2019 03:24 KalWarkov wrote:On August 19 2019 03:07 Phattyasmo wrote:
Yeah, not really. Serral and Elazer made it to the finals, cool. That doesn't mean anything (maybe some are having a bad tournie, maybe Elazer is really on point right now, etc.). Don't forget all the times Koreans have previously wrecked foreigners in tournaments. Serral is very good, yes, but so are many Koreans, and last I checked, there are more good Koreans than one Serral.
If Europeans can keep solid, consistent records, then maybe you can begin to argue your point about "The Gap," but one tournament result is not how to go about claiming this. Neeb beat Stats. Special almost beat Classic. The 2 best Protoss in the world. Time 3-0d soO, who was then beaten by Elazer - who himself beat Dark. 1 result? what? And it's not only this tournament. top end koreans lost quite a few series against top foreigners in the past year. Also, Serral consistantly wins touranments with koreans in them. he's won like 4/7 events with high level korean participation. not 1 single korean has won 2 of those events. he's clearly the best. yes, the next 5-6 players are koreans - but the top 30 of all players has about 10-12 foreigners in it. in the old times, it was 28-29 koreans. Can you list those 12 foreigners? and the koreans too please, not in a particular order. Just name them. I guess the ones who were at GSL vs The World plus Lambo/Scarlett? That would be a pretty good top 10 I guess. Maybe Drogo, uThermal, Harstem next? Not sure how many would be in the top 30 overall though.
It’s difficult to tell, let’s say the rank 10-25 foreigners don’t really play their Korean equivalents all that often, so ranking them is tricky.
If we’re talking top 50 players in the world, there has to at least be 20 foreigners in there, I can’t really think on what the order would be, but it seems a reasonable estimate.
Outside of really early WoL when guys in the foreign scene went full time even in beta, for a vast chunk of SC2’s existence no foreign player has come anywhere near being a consensus best in the world player, and the foreign scene would be lucky to have more than 5 or so players in the world’s top 50, give or take.
That some of this is due to systemic problems in Korea post-Kespa sure, to deny the gap has closed or that foreigners haven’t improved I think is a bit silly frankly.
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On August 18 2019 23:00 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2019 16:32 SC-Shield wrote:
The gap hasn't closed. It's a consequence of events:
- KeSPA abandoned StarCraft scene
- Korean pro teams disbanded
- region lock / less tournaments for Koreans
Over time effects of these are beginning to show. When you weaken something, it doesn't mean "the gap has closed". It means level has gone down. What? The level going down is what causes the gap to close lol...
When people say "the gap has closed" they mean Koreans and foreigners are equally good. No, they're not. Koreans lack the environment to play more seriously so level is going down. What I call "closing the gap" is when foreigners and Koreans are able to reach their peak without external influences (region lock, etc).
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Obviously the gap is closing, I think people are overreacting on these results though. If you just look at how all the koreans got knocked out it almost looks like the tables have turned. But if you look at the actual matchups and what happened its not so weird.
Elazer beat Dark, sure its an upset but we are talking one of the best european zerg, EU ZvZ is beast and Elazer has done it before. I was not suprised.
Time beat soO, sure I'm shocked at this, it really proves foreigners are improving overall when new foreigners that aren't the holy four comes in and dominates over an established korean like this.
Neeb beat Stats in PvP, Neeb has done it before, the tournament he won was also due to his stellar PvP. I bet on Stats and I did not expect this but it is not surprising really.
Can we not even mention Serrals wins? He is Serral, yes he beat TY, Trap and Classic and I am not surprised.
Only Time vs soO was surprising here none of the other results are really worth all this fuss.
As I previously mentioned I don't disagree with the fact that the gap is closing but this tournament doesn't add much to that.
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On August 19 2019 00:06 IshinShishi wrote:
exactly, I mean, the finalist of one of the most prestigious tournaments these days makes 10 more overlods than he needs at 90 supply almost every game, skill level has indeed taken a sharp decline.
i d think its the other way around, a finallist these days can make 10 overlords more n he needs at almost every game and because he s there and you are not, the decision to make those 10 ovis clearly must have some benefit that you are just unable to discover and or recreate. Hence your arrogant but clearly mistaken view that overall skill level must have declined.
Plus i find it quite distasteful to downplay someones hard earned achievements.
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On August 19 2019 04:35 Shuffleblade wrote:
Neeb beat Stats in PvP, Neeb has done it before, the tournament he won was also due to his stellar PvP. I bet on Stats and I did not expect this but it is not surprising really.
I can't really speak for any other player, but Neeb's PvP after his 2016 victory has been a lot less impressive. In 2017 during his impressive WCS runs, he consistently went to the 3 or 5 game max again players like against Probe (3-2) and ShoWTimE (3-2).
Then in 2018, he got knocked out of WCS by PvP three times, twice by ShoWTimE (2-3, 2-3) and once by Mana (0-3). He lost 2-3 in Cheesadelphia again Mcanning, and despite that tournament being much lower in scope, I think we can all agree Neeb should be able to win in a bo5. Even in Asus, Neeb lost against Zest 2-0 twice (despite beating PtitDrogo twice in recent past, once at Asus, and the other in WCS 3-1).
He's consistently lost offline again Korean Protoss like Trap, Classic, PartinG, Zest, and herO (though he also beat herO in 2018), Hurricane (again, PvP master), and Stats. In fact, I don't think he's won a single map against Stats since 2016.
So certainly, his PvP has done better (sort of) in 2019, but given Neeb's form against Korean Protoss, which, since 2017 has not been stellar, with around 45% map winrate on and offline and 37.78% map win offline.
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I hope the time to scrap the Korean/Foreigner classification all together comes soon. I don't know any other sport where a nation is commonly described that dominantly, even though it could make sense in the NFL for example.
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On August 19 2019 17:45 Slydie wrote:
I hope the time to scrap the Korean/Foreigner classification all together comes soon. I don't know any other sport where a nation is commonly described that dominantly, even though it could make sense in the NFL for example.
Basketball
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It is definitely time to get rid of region lock at this point. The Korean scene is already doing pretty poorly - if we don't do something to revive it, it will die altogether, and that is not something any of us want to happen.
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On August 19 2019 18:14 Psychonian wrote:
It is definitely time to get rid of region lock at this point. The Korean scene is already doing pretty poorly - if we don't do something to revive it, it will die altogether, and that is not something any of us want to happen.
Why would the Korean scene die just because Korea isn't dominant any more?
I don't understand the requirement that Korea needs to be dominant. I think SC2 would be quite healthy if there were dominant players from around the world, other than just Korea. The more continents that have dominant players, the better for the game. And as long as Korea has some top world players (rather than having ALL the top players), I think the Korean scene will do okay.
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The korean scene is healthy as fuck, haters
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On August 19 2019 19:06 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2019 18:14 Psychonian wrote:
It is definitely time to get rid of region lock at this point. The Korean scene is already doing pretty poorly - if we don't do something to revive it, it will die altogether, and that is not something any of us want to happen. Why would the Korean scene die just because Korea isn't dominant any more? I don't understand the requirement that Korea needs to be dominant. I think SC2 would be quite healthy if there were dominant players from around the world, other than just Korea. The more continents that have dominant players, the better for the game. And as long as Korea has some top world players (rather than having ALL the top players), I think the Korean scene will do okay.
I don't think his/her point is to have Korea be dominant, but the balancing of opportunities for Korean players; foreigners can play in WCS events and GSL. Koreans can play in one or the other. I also believe that at the last ASUS ROG even Koreans didn't get WCS points.
You might have noticed that the more successful players in GSL vs the World are living in the foreigner house in Korea and play in the GSL (Elazer, Neeb, SpeCial). Serral is an exception for the most part I believe.
Foreign players have more opportunities than Korean players. Yes, in the past Koreaners and B teamers ruled the roost in WCS but LotV's pace and necessity for multitasking and in the last few years, easier access to Korean ladder has led to foreigners being far more competitive. With less GSL slots going to Koreans, and less high reward tournaments for them to take part in, there is a belief that the Korea player base will be snuffed out as there is no new blood entering their scene.
This is just my take on things as I see them. I would be happy to be wrong about it, though  .
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On August 19 2019 19:06 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2019 18:14 Psychonian wrote:
It is definitely time to get rid of region lock at this point. The Korean scene is already doing pretty poorly - if we don't do something to revive it, it will die altogether, and that is not something any of us want to happen. Why would the Korean scene die just because Korea isn't dominant any more? I don't understand the requirement that Korea needs to be dominant. I think SC2 would be quite healthy if there were dominant players from around the world, other than just Korea. The more continents that have dominant players, the better for the game. And as long as Korea has some top world players (rather than having ALL the top players), I think the Korean scene will do okay.
DSK added some valid points, I will try to expand further.
The problem is not that korea is not as dominant anymore, that in itself is fine, the problem is why.
Koreans are locked out of most tournaments outside of GSL and GSL in itself does not present enough money to go around. Additional opportunities for more income and exposure is few and far between and the reason for that is because the sc2 fanbase in korea is very small.
Basically most of sc2 fanbase is outside of korea, historically the best sc2 players and games have been in korea. This is what happens when you lock the strongest region out from most of the tournaments, the scene withers. Even if there were up and comers in korea they "can't" go pro because to earn any money on sc2 in korea you need to crack ro16 GSL, as a noname that is almost impossible.
Before regionlock, strong GSL contenders left korea to play internationally opening up slots in GSL, like MMA, Polt, Hydra and so on. Up and coming korean players left korea to try to find success abroad which gave them room to develop as players, like Stardust, Impact or Heart.
Now when that avenue is closed korea is suffocating, new blood has no way forward unless they want to go all in to try and go far in GSL reliably and we all know that is close to impossible for new blood.
For example, getting into RO32 in GSL earns you ₩ 3,000,000 which is roughly 2 500 US dollars. Which means if you are "new blood" in korea and manage to get into RO32 but fail to make RO16 all three GSL seasons you income for the whole year would be 2 500 * 3 = 7 500 dollar.
New blood wont be able to get a team that pays a salary and since most of the viewers are outside of korea all the sponsors are outside of korea and korean players rarely get to play outside of korea. For koreans most ways to earn/win money or get sponsors are closed.
So, as the previous poster has already said. Is this what we want? Sure the foreign scene is improving but the korean is also declining, opportunities has become available for foreigners through closing off koreans opportunities.
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any discussion about whether something is better or worse would be much less divisive and much more educational if we'd ask the opinions of people who actually play the challenger/tournaments to get into WCS and other global events.'
as it is, people just want to see the best games for themselves.
some like the ultra competitiveness between the same foreigners.
some like to be able to compare their foreign favourites against the other current and top players.
the viewers and people who argue for region lock in its current state need to understand, that either the scene suddenly booms and we dump incredible viewers and money into the game, or this will be the upper limit of events we'll ever get.
the initial bubble has bursted and we are stuck in short-term (yearly).
do they think it would be better or worse to lift the ban, and why?
these are the people who play in wardiiitv games, who show up to challenger events, and practice with one another hoping to get through.
would it be okay for them to work incredibly hard to qualify for an event, to get knocked out by a korean legend?
would it be okay for current pros to have more competition than they have been getting?
it is the player's risk to weigh whether they get to go to events on team salary/stipend versus attending less events and staying local.
but the most important thing ever is to think about where the future of the game goes. this is a simple decision but goes on to make a delicate situation.
personally, i want taeja, hero, and other such pros to come to foreign events as they are now. i want to see them play in an environment where they are no longer the best.
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
Why would removing region lock and not doing other things change anything? If anything they might make it worse.
Historically there was enough Korean depth that guys who weren’t at the absolute top end of the GSL competing for titles were still way above foreigners generally.
The GSL’s niche is that it’s the elite tournament in the historic home of Starcraft, with the highest level of play.
Let’s say that opening the doors and unlocking the region doesn’t see the Korean players of A/B tier get more opportunities, but instead we see a bunch of S class players approaching military callup move abroad.
You could end up with a devalued Code S if say Inno, Stats, other top guys with team backing move and play abroad (just random names), the league loses lustre and the players who suffer from region lock still don’t really have great opportunities because they lack the fan base and team backing of some of the guys who I would see as more like to prosper if region lock is gone.
The barrier to opportunity is not just region lock, but breaking through the Kespa guys and their stranglehold on Korean Starcraft as well, specifically those who had that training regime and connections. Even if some will say the level has slightly dropped, it’s still way too high for people to break through seemingly. Not particularly different from BW even in the current era players who weren’t in a Kespa team at some stage struggle to break that ceiling.
I’m not against removing region lock in and of itself, but without doing other things I don’t think it will accomplish what people think it will, and could introduce other problems too.
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i don't understand your reasoning surrounding koreans moving abroad.
they have to do it currently if they want to participate.
they don't have to consider it at all if it is unlocked to all regions again.
moving abroad won't make it any easier to participate in WCS events, and it only dilutes GSL if they decide not to participate because of scheduling with other events, which is already often accounted for by TO's.
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On August 19 2019 04:29 SC-Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2019 23:00 NinjaNight wrote:On August 18 2019 16:32 SC-Shield wrote:
The gap hasn't closed. It's a consequence of events:
- KeSPA abandoned StarCraft scene
- Korean pro teams disbanded
- region lock / less tournaments for Koreans
Over time effects of these are beginning to show. When you weaken something, it doesn't mean "the gap has closed". It means level has gone down. What? The level going down is what causes the gap to close lol... When people say "the gap has closed" they mean Koreans and foreigners are equally good. No, they're not. Koreans lack the environment to play more seriously so level is going down. What I call "closing the gap" is when foreigners and Koreans are able to reach their peak without external influences (region lock, etc).
Having Korean corporations sponsoring full time team houses in a quite centralised country, with a league that requires you to stay in a country that is quite difficult for many foreigners culturally isn’t external?
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On August 19 2019 23:36 nanaoei wrote:
i don't understand your reasoning surrounding koreans moving abroad.
they have to do it currently if they want to participate.
they don't have to consider it at all if it is unlocked to all regions again.
moving abroad won't make it any easier to participate in WCS events, and it only dilutes GSL if they decide not to participate because of scheduling with other events, which is already often accounted for by TO's.
My point is that unlocking regions will just see the current Korean gatekeepers make more money in foreign tournaments, it’s not going to give opportunities to the guys below them, which is the rationale some people have in doing it.
The top of Korea is pretty fine, one bad tournament doesn’t really change that, it’s beneath that and the lack of new talent breaking through that is worse for the long term prospects of the scene.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 19 2019 23:39 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2019 04:29 SC-Shield wrote:On August 18 2019 23:00 NinjaNight wrote:On August 18 2019 16:32 SC-Shield wrote:
The gap hasn't closed. It's a consequence of events:
- KeSPA abandoned StarCraft scene
- Korean pro teams disbanded
- region lock / less tournaments for Koreans
Over time effects of these are beginning to show. When you weaken something, it doesn't mean "the gap has closed". It means level has gone down. What? The level going down is what causes the gap to close lol... When people say "the gap has closed" they mean Koreans and foreigners are equally good. No, they're not. Koreans lack the environment to play more seriously so level is going down. What I call "closing the gap" is when foreigners and Koreans are able to reach their peak without external influences (region lock, etc). Having Korean corporations sponsoring full time team houses in a quite centralised country, with a league that requires you to stay in a country that is quite difficult for many foreigners culturally isn’t external?
What Korean corportaions sponsor full time team houses? Name 2 or more(better to name more than 2). I'll await the names of the corporations eagerly.
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EPT
