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Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak"
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On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak"
Agree about it making mech worse since u can no longer fight hive mass air, but it's certainly a nerf to bio late game as well..if u have watched any of the games in gsl bio tvz that have gone late 100% end in mass ghost raven. Personally no problem from me with nerfing mech out of the game xD lol. The entire premise in its current state is based on turtling...= not fun to play or watch..but still very interested to watch ro16 and see what the horsemen come up with for the inevitable late game
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak"
Tanks still use smartfire, aren't they?
To make mech & bio viable at the same time they would have to do some crazy balance. And that would require to redesign some core units - and they don't have the balls for this. I don't blame them, it would require some crazy knowledge to redesign properly the game so both styles are viable in both non-mirror MU(and I don't think they can change just some units, IMO they would need to redesign the Protoss race and that's the core of the problem IMO).
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On May 21 2018 00:25 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Agree about it making mech worse since u can no longer fight hive mass air, but it's certainly a nerf to bio late game as well..if u have watched any of the games in gsl bio tvz that have gone late 100% end in mass ghost raven. Personally no problem from me with nerfing mech out of the game xD lol. The entire premise in its current state is based on turtling...= not fun to play or watch..but still very interested to watch ro16 and see what the horsemen come up with for the inevitable late game
On May 21 2018 07:54 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Tanks still use smartfire, aren't they? To make mech & bio viable at the same time they would have to do some crazy balance. And that would require to redesign some core units - and they don't have the balls for this. I don't blame them, it would require some crazy knowledge to redesign properly the game so both styles are viable in both non-mirror MU(and I don't think they can change just some units, IMO they would need to redesign the Protoss race and that's the core of the problem IMO).
Actually the cyclone could have opened up options to make a somewhat "mobile" version of mech work.
Making mech and bio viable would have been a possibility if Blizz designed the cyclone as a reliable mech footman able to provide good "general purposed" anti air, but needing mech upgrades to do so. Instead, they managed the feat to make it a horrible unit in all matchup outside of cheeses, while being extremely oppressive in early game TvT.
And ajusting mech vs protoss without breaking it versus zerg would have been possible, especially by tuning units like the banshee, the thor and the liberator, or doing very niche nerfs to protoss units preventing mech from ever working.
My point is that if you could make mech viable vs protoss but without being the same than against zerg or terran. Relying less on tanks, for instance. But frankly i do agree that the game is such an intense clusterfuck right now, riddled with horrible designs (blink DTs are still in the game, i find myself chuckling softly while writing it) that a throughout rework would need to be done.
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On May 20 2018 16:36 Dekker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2018 14:20 youngjiddle wrote:
winrates no more than 3% off of even.
What fantasy did that number come from? Even blizzard posted a different number in their community update. Protoss was favored quite a lot in TvP...
numbers from our only source of winrates we have to use... and why are you lying about what Blizzard said? the most they said was that winrates/midgame slightly favored protoss. I think your pushing your own idea when you say "Protoss was favored quite a lot in TvP", lol...
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What if we replaced cyclone with goliath? Goliath is okay vs armored air units like voidray and carrier. TvT is okay, right? no more cyclone wars. TvZ is okay too for both sides. Also this is good if you doing mech, right? protecting mech ball and tanks.
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On May 21 2018 10:10 dummy1 wrote:
What if we replaced cyclone with goliath? Goliath is okay vs armored air units like voidray and carrier. TvT is okay, right? no more cyclone wars. TvZ is okay too for both sides. Also this is good if you doing mech, right? protecting mech ball and tanks.
what if we restored the cyclone to its (almost) former glory? the old cyclone was a flawed masterpiece. a few tweaks and it could have been great. it already was the coolest unit in the game in my opinion.
so what the fuck went wrong? first, we had the lock-on range bug which reduced the activation range by 2. this bug was raised sometime in Feburary 2016:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/503667-serious-problem-or-bug-on-cyclone
cyclones should have had 7 activation range. the bug caused them to have 5 activation range. this meant that cyclones took damage from marines, marauders, stalkers, immortals, queens and un-upgraded hydras when it should have been taking no damage at all.
IIRC, this bug was fixed sometime in August 2016... 6 fucking months later.
patch 3.8.0 replaced lock-on with tornado blaster cyclones on 22nd November 2016.
this means that players only had 3 months of testing with the non-buggy lock-on cyclone before it was dramatically redesigned into warhound 2.0. one can imagine that the tornado blaster redesign was already in the works many weeks/months before November 22nd 2016. Blizzard didn't even give it a chance. they gave up on lock-on cyclones prematurely. why? I don't know.
make no mistake, this bug was the #1 reason why pros didn't experiment with lock-on cyclones.
#2 reason? 4 supply cost.
#3 reason? the techlab limitation.
Blizzard gave up on lock-on prematurely. there are plenty of balance tweaks they could have tested, but didn't.
3 supply lock-on cyclones? not tested.
lock-on cyclones with no techlab requirement? not tested.
production cost / stat scaling? not tested. they could have tried reducing the production cost to 125/75 and proportionally reduce ground-to-ground lock-on damage to match the cost (e.g. -20% damage, 320 damage over 14 seconds). why stop there? you could scale the cyclone down even further... make cyclones 2 supply, reduce the cost even further, reduce their damage a bit more. this would make them a cheap, fast, swarmy unit like hellions or vultures, while retaining the micro potential of lock-on and their awesome synergy with hellions and widow mines.
let's face it, goliaths are never gonna be added to sc2. Blizz don't have the balls to remove or add units. the best case scenario is that they bring back lock-on cyclones. in fact, I would prefer lock-on cyclones over the goliath.
sc2 mech doesn't have anything like the vulture. lock-on cyclones partially fill the role of both vulture and goliath. lock-on in large battles has an infinite skill ceiling and high micro potential. plus, their high movement speed allowed them to flee any zerg ground unit except speedlings. this meant you could (theoretically) split your cyclones into 2 or 3 groups (with hellion support to protect against lings), having multiple skirmishes around the map at once. if you are Maru or TY, you could potentially save every cyclone and do massive damage. if you are Rogue or Dark, you could ninja fungal or set up lurker traps.
INoVation was just beginning to show the amazing synergy cyclones have with hellions and widow mines. hellion/cyclone resulted in constant skirmishes vs zerg because you had the ability to kite. now with the reduced movement speed and removal of ground-to-ground lock-on, there is no kiting, no micro, no skirmishes. no fun at all.
tornado blaster cyclones are incredibly powerful in very narrow situations (early-game vP/vT), and completely useless as a core unit. with the help of some repairing SCVs, you can survive almost anything in the early-game. after that, useless. it isn't worth building them as a core AA unit and it isn't worth building them vs ground because you can't kite.
there is literally no skill difference between a pro KR terran killing a zealot with a cyclone vs a plat league terran killing a zealot with a cyclone. drop-ship micro doesn't count. cylcones need their own micro mechanic. any micro mechanic is better than what we have now... remember kiting ultras across the map with super fast cyclones? damn, that was fun
cyclones should be glass cannons with low(ish) health, high damage and fast movement speed.
everything that was fun about this unit is now gone. lock-on was totally unique and had the potential to be tweaked into something great, perhaps a spiritual successor to the vulture's scoot & shoot. tornado blaster cyclones have absolutely no micro potential...
best case scenario:
1) bring back patch 3.7 cyclones
- remove tornado blasters
- reinstate ground-to-ground lock-on
- reinstate ground-to-air lock-on
- revert the movement speed nerf
- revert the health buff (cyclones should be glass cannons)
- supply cost: 3 (maybe even 2, depending on the damage/health scaling)
- patch 3.7 model size
2) no techlab limitation
3) reduce the cost from 150/100 to ???/?? (125/75, 100/50, test, test, test) and proportionally reduce ground-to-ground lock-on damage to match the cost
-16.67% health = -16.67% mineral cost = -16.67% damage = 333 damage over 20 seconds
or
-33.33% health = -33.33% mineral cost = -33.33% damage = 267 damage over 20 seconds)
4) new upgrade: charon boosters. increases lock-on activation range of ground-to-air weapons by 3 (activation range, not missile range). this would make cyclones the core AA mech unit even vs capital ships. bye bye thors, nobody will miss you.
5) if AA damage is a problem in the early game (too strong against oracle / overlords / medivacs / banshees), make AA dmg an upgrade. personally, I wouldn't mind reducing the supremacy of air units in the early game.
6) if ground-to-ground activation range is a problem in the early game (7 range out-ranges and out-speeds every T1 zerg unit except speedlings), make lock-on activation range an upgrade, or merge the upgrade bonus with one of the existing 3.7 upgrades (e.g. mag field).
I want cyclones to be really bad when they are standing still (like tornado blasters do) and really powerful when they are moved intelligently while firing (luring the opponent into widow mine traps, tank lines, etc)
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On May 21 2018 09:40 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 00:25 DomeGetta wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Agree about it making mech worse since u can no longer fight hive mass air, but it's certainly a nerf to bio late game as well..if u have watched any of the games in gsl bio tvz that have gone late 100% end in mass ghost raven. Personally no problem from me with nerfing mech out of the game xD lol. The entire premise in its current state is based on turtling...= not fun to play or watch..but still very interested to watch ro16 and see what the horsemen come up with for the inevitable late game Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 07:54 deacon.frost wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Tanks still use smartfire, aren't they? To make mech & bio viable at the same time they would have to do some crazy balance. And that would require to redesign some core units - and they don't have the balls for this. I don't blame them, it would require some crazy knowledge to redesign properly the game so both styles are viable in both non-mirror MU(and I don't think they can change just some units, IMO they would need to redesign the Protoss race and that's the core of the problem IMO). Actually the cyclone could have opened up options to make a somewhat "mobile" version of mech work. Making mech and bio viable would have been a possibility if Blizz designed the cyclone as a reliable mech footman able to provide good "general purposed" anti air, but needing mech upgrades to do so. Instead, they managed the feat to make it a horrible unit in all matchup outside of cheeses, while being extremely oppressive in early game TvT. And ajusting mech vs protoss without breaking it versus zerg would have been possible, especially by tuning units like the banshee, the thor and the liberator, or doing very niche nerfs to protoss units preventing mech from ever working. My point is that if you could make mech viable vs protoss but without being the same than against zerg or terran. Relying less on tanks, for instance. But frankly i do agree that the game is such an intense clusterfuck right now, riddled with horrible designs (blink DTs are still in the game, i find myself chuckling softly while writing it) that a throughout rework would need to be done.
Whats wrong with blink dts? they give players an option to create map specific cheeses and make creative build orders. There are alot of things I think are resonable to complain about but I dont understand whats so wrong with blink dts?
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On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:So now you can change the map, to have some game with more late game, but that will never affect the casual player. Cause when you are outside of this game, when you don't play since 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, this game look not fun. Nothing is easy and despit of what the majority of the players think, this is no more an intellectual game, its 90% mechanics 10% strategy. Yes you need to think to find some new build, but let's be honest, you all watch the GSL and copy paste. This is not what a strategic player should do, he should improve and think, not copy paste.
I played 2 games vs a Diamond level 3 player today in TvZ. I beat him with a reaper expand both times.
Not a big timing attack with 2-2 bio. Or even a medivac with marines.
I killed him with a single reaper that would consistently get more than 5 drone kills before the 3:30 speed timing and fluster him enough that he had no creep spread or macro.
My MMR is 4800 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ5QnewXH5qatQBBUj8yAy6XglqSZrOsvBMaz7LlaN_Q44RnnDD26jhDD9b-1sxIq8ZaA9y6v-ut9wM/pubhtml
His MMR was somewhere in the mid 3000's. According to this graph, he would have less than 1% chance of beating me. Roughly two "orders of magnitude" below me. Strategy would not matter. We even played a game where I went fast 3 base hellion banshee and he went 2 base muta. He could not have hard countered me more, and he still lost.
Now here is the spooky thing. Serral has an MMR greater than 7000. I can wipe the floor with diamond players all day with a single reaper. I literally do not know the words to express how much better Serral would be than ME. In a simulation vs Serral, out of 1,000,000 games, I might expect to win ONCE. Where I'm 2 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. Serral is 6 orders of magnitude above a diamond player.
The level of difference that can be measured is staggering.
Now because of this, most people never get to play SC2 as a strategy game.
You can almost always out-macro and out-micro your opponent into submission. But what happens when we get two people who are masters of the game? (Not masters league, those people suck at the game). If you watch a GSL ro4 match, there are mindgames, build order swaps, feints, multi pronged attacks, traps, everything that makes RTS a compelling genre.
Just because you and I aren't good enough to play the game that way, doesn't mean that isn't the essence of the game.
---
As to the part of your post that talks about BW. The phenomenon is compounded 50x there. Savior or Flash in their respective primes were so much better than everyone else that it strategy didn't matter. I'm not a broodwar history buff but IIRC Flash would literally constantly play the same strats on the same maps and no matter what his opponents wouldn't be able to stop it.
---
Why this big rant post on some random balance update thing?
I think this is true for anything. A michelin starred chef. Michael Jordan. Aleksandr Karelin.
There are people who are such behemoths in their fields that mere men cannot compare.
However that does not belittle the strategy element in, for example, greco-roman wrestling during Karelin's prime. Strategy still existed. It just so happened to be that Karelin was stronger, faster, and smarter than all of his opponents for almost 10 years straight. I'm not gonna google it but I think there was a point at which he won 6 world championships without having a point scored on him.
Unfortunately my post has meandered since it is late in the night for me, but I hope I got my point across.
Git gud son.
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On May 20 2018 04:12 LSN wrote:
Sure SC2 balancing is moving in circles and it wont go anywhere, ever.
But this is no new information. I think it had become obvious since some months after release of HOTS, I guess it was mid to end 2013.
These threads are still full of players who try to gain little edges and advantages for their own races mostly. And a few decent posts inbetween which by themselves are not able to pull it off.
Sc2 is not in the situation where it can be helped with small changes and instead several things would have to be changed at once as everything is connected. This patch is obviously trying to perform that kind of thing but it actually it is not even enough. But its getting harder to forecast results the more you change at once, due to networking effect.
At this point it is probably best to have a larger overhaul (large random factor) again and to hope that one wins the lottery, but they actually had to be way more courageous with adressing cores of issues than before.
Hence it might do the trick to parallel the development and have several teams compete with alternative designs/balances against each other internally. If we had like 3-4 teams doing 4 designs a year (one per quarter), it would be more likely to hit the jackpot earlier, support teams learning from each other, and can image different pictures and perceptions of the game to choose from in a faster pace.
The jackpot is what Anoss stated. To have a game that is not as much focused on mechanics as it currently is, which gives a bit more freedom to creativity of players. Add to that, that advantages over time should not scale in square but a bit more towards linearish (not fully obviously). Bring back early game. Damage per map size of units revision. Splash vs single target revision. Game pace revision. Mineral block/base saturation revision. etc.
I dont get why people keep saying the game is in an awfull state, are there some problems with ballance, yes, are there some problems with the way some matchups generaly play out (tvz always being either kill them before they get there or some kind of turtle fest, PvT being in a prity bad state where terran needs to do allins before protoss gets all there tools, PVZ being very volitile with lots of very powerful allins from both sides) But despite these problems the game is fairly balanced right now. I think that its in a much better state than periods where things have realy been out of whack (1-1-1 era, BL infestor era, Blink stalker allin, 3:00 oracle) Things are alright right now, not ideal but ok, when I load into a game in any matchup as any race I think I have at least a reasonable chance of winning that game, theres no sense of an inevitable loss like there were during periods of intense imbalance in the past. Things still certainly need to be tuned (imo especially tvp) but the game is moving in an alright direction.
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On May 21 2018 14:37 Thaniri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:So now you can change the map, to have some game with more late game, but that will never affect the casual player. Cause when you are outside of this game, when you don't play since 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, this game look not fun. Nothing is easy and despit of what the majority of the players think, this is no more an intellectual game, its 90% mechanics 10% strategy. Yes you need to think to find some new build, but let's be honest, you all watch the GSL and copy paste. This is not what a strategic player should do, he should improve and think, not copy paste. I played 2 games vs a Diamond level 3 player today in TvZ. I beat him with a reaper expand both times. Not a big timing attack with 2-2 bio. Or even a medivac with marines. I killed him with a single reaper that would consistently get more than 5 drone kills before the 3:30 speed timing and fluster him enough that he had no creep spread or macro. My MMR is 4800 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ5QnewXH5qatQBBUj8yAy6XglqSZrOsvBMaz7LlaN_Q44RnnDD26jhDD9b-1sxIq8ZaA9y6v-ut9wM/pubhtmlHis MMR was somewhere in the mid 3000's. According to this graph, he would have less than 1% chance of beating me. Roughly two "orders of magnitude" below me. Strategy would not matter. We even played a game where I went fast 3 base hellion banshee and he went 2 base muta. He could not have hard countered me more, and he still lost. Now here is the spooky thing. Serral has an MMR greater than 7000. I can wipe the floor with diamond players all day with a single reaper. I literally do not know the words to express how much better Serral would be than ME. In a simulation vs Serral, out of 1,000,000 games, I might expect to win ONCE. Where I'm 2 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. Serral is 6 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. The level of difference that can be measured is staggering. Now because of this, most people never get to play SC2 as a strategy game. You can almost always out-macro and out-micro your opponent into submission. But what happens when we get two people who are masters of the game? (Not masters league, those people suck at the game). If you watch a GSL ro4 match, there are mindgames, build order swaps, feints, multi pronged attacks, traps, everything that makes RTS a compelling genre. Just because you and I aren't good enough to play the game that way, doesn't mean that isn't the essence of the game. --- As to the part of your post that talks about BW. The phenomenon is compounded 50x there. Savior or Flash in their respective primes were so much better than everyone else that it strategy didn't matter. I'm not a broodwar history buff but IIRC Flash would literally constantly play the same strats on the same maps and no matter what his opponents wouldn't be able to stop it. --- Why this big rant post on some random balance update thing? I think this is true for anything. A michelin starred chef. Michael Jordan. Aleksandr Karelin. There are people who are such behemoths in their fields that mere men cannot compare. However that does not belittle the strategy element in, for example, greco-roman wrestling during Karelin's prime. Strategy still existed. It just so happened to be that Karelin was stronger, faster, and smarter than all of his opponents for almost 10 years straight. I'm not gonna google it but I think there was a point at which he won 6 world championships without having a point scored on him. Unfortunately my post has meandered since it is late in the night for me, but I hope I got my point across. Git gud son.
SC2 is a Real Time Strategy game. The time part has a big role to play. It makes it so that mechanics are very important. The Strategy bit is there to make near equal mechanical players play interesting games.
The reason Anoss's complaint about this not being an intellectual game exist, I believe, is because the game pace is so high. Had the game been running more slowly, we would have had a vastly different experience.
Thaniri's argument about skill level is very relevant. Higher skill beats lower skill, even if lower skill has strategic understanding.
In my games I play at half of the APM of my opponents. I believe that is because I have higher strategic and lower mechanical skill than my opponents (though I might be wrong).
Regarding Karelin: that man was a beast. Tomas Johansson often got silver in that era and should have been "dominant" had Karelin not been there and shown what true dominance is. Johansson scored one single point vs Karelin, IIRC.
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On May 21 2018 14:31 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 09:40 JackONeill wrote:On May 21 2018 00:25 DomeGetta wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Agree about it making mech worse since u can no longer fight hive mass air, but it's certainly a nerf to bio late game as well..if u have watched any of the games in gsl bio tvz that have gone late 100% end in mass ghost raven. Personally no problem from me with nerfing mech out of the game xD lol. The entire premise in its current state is based on turtling...= not fun to play or watch..but still very interested to watch ro16 and see what the horsemen come up with for the inevitable late game On May 21 2018 07:54 deacon.frost wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Tanks still use smartfire, aren't they? To make mech & bio viable at the same time they would have to do some crazy balance. And that would require to redesign some core units - and they don't have the balls for this. I don't blame them, it would require some crazy knowledge to redesign properly the game so both styles are viable in both non-mirror MU(and I don't think they can change just some units, IMO they would need to redesign the Protoss race and that's the core of the problem IMO). Actually the cyclone could have opened up options to make a somewhat "mobile" version of mech work. Making mech and bio viable would have been a possibility if Blizz designed the cyclone as a reliable mech footman able to provide good "general purposed" anti air, but needing mech upgrades to do so. Instead, they managed the feat to make it a horrible unit in all matchup outside of cheeses, while being extremely oppressive in early game TvT. And ajusting mech vs protoss without breaking it versus zerg would have been possible, especially by tuning units like the banshee, the thor and the liberator, or doing very niche nerfs to protoss units preventing mech from ever working. My point is that if you could make mech viable vs protoss but without being the same than against zerg or terran. Relying less on tanks, for instance. But frankly i do agree that the game is such an intense clusterfuck right now, riddled with horrible designs (blink DTs are still in the game, i find myself chuckling softly while writing it) that a throughout rework would need to be done. Whats wrong with blink dts? they give players an option to create map specific cheeses and make creative build orders. There are alot of things I think are resonable to complain about but I dont understand whats so wrong with blink dts?
Dude if you don't see how giving a permanently cloacked unit the same teleportation ability than another unit of the same race while making it so long cooldown wise/tech requirement wise that it won't really be used is bad design, i don't know what to say to you.
Giving a harass unit that already has an escape mechanism (high movespeed, permacloack) another one that's already identified with the stalker is so lazy and terrible. It'd be like giving ghosts the ability to jump up cliffs like reapers, but making it an fusion core-required upgrade.
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On May 21 2018 23:38 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 14:31 washikie wrote:On May 21 2018 09:40 JackONeill wrote:On May 21 2018 00:25 DomeGetta wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Agree about it making mech worse since u can no longer fight hive mass air, but it's certainly a nerf to bio late game as well..if u have watched any of the games in gsl bio tvz that have gone late 100% end in mass ghost raven. Personally no problem from me with nerfing mech out of the game xD lol. The entire premise in its current state is based on turtling...= not fun to play or watch..but still very interested to watch ro16 and see what the horsemen come up with for the inevitable late game On May 21 2018 07:54 deacon.frost wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Tanks still use smartfire, aren't they? To make mech & bio viable at the same time they would have to do some crazy balance. And that would require to redesign some core units - and they don't have the balls for this. I don't blame them, it would require some crazy knowledge to redesign properly the game so both styles are viable in both non-mirror MU(and I don't think they can change just some units, IMO they would need to redesign the Protoss race and that's the core of the problem IMO). Actually the cyclone could have opened up options to make a somewhat "mobile" version of mech work. Making mech and bio viable would have been a possibility if Blizz designed the cyclone as a reliable mech footman able to provide good "general purposed" anti air, but needing mech upgrades to do so. Instead, they managed the feat to make it a horrible unit in all matchup outside of cheeses, while being extremely oppressive in early game TvT. And ajusting mech vs protoss without breaking it versus zerg would have been possible, especially by tuning units like the banshee, the thor and the liberator, or doing very niche nerfs to protoss units preventing mech from ever working. My point is that if you could make mech viable vs protoss but without being the same than against zerg or terran. Relying less on tanks, for instance. But frankly i do agree that the game is such an intense clusterfuck right now, riddled with horrible designs (blink DTs are still in the game, i find myself chuckling softly while writing it) that a throughout rework would need to be done. Whats wrong with blink dts? they give players an option to create map specific cheeses and make creative build orders. There are alot of things I think are resonable to complain about but I dont understand whats so wrong with blink dts? Dude if you don't see how giving a permanently cloacked unit the same teleportation ability than another unit of the same race while making it so long cooldown wise/tech requirement wise that it won't really be used is bad design, i don't know what to say to you. Giving a harass unit that already has an escape mechanism (high movespeed, permacloack) another one that's already identified with the stalker is so lazy and terrible. It'd be like giving ghosts the ability to jump up cliffs like reapers, but making it an fusion core-required upgrade.
Ghosts have the exact same movespeed than DT, +3 sight, and are ranged and are one of the strongest caster of the game.
Dt stop being viable when the other has enough detection, blink dt is an attempt to make them a bit viable as harass in lategame (with poor sucess let's admit it).
Of course you're not bringing a better solution to fix the issue but ask again for another riduculous buff for terran with for only argument a biased analogy.
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On May 22 2018 00:34 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 23:38 JackONeill wrote:On May 21 2018 14:31 washikie wrote:On May 21 2018 09:40 JackONeill wrote:On May 21 2018 00:25 DomeGetta wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Agree about it making mech worse since u can no longer fight hive mass air, but it's certainly a nerf to bio late game as well..if u have watched any of the games in gsl bio tvz that have gone late 100% end in mass ghost raven. Personally no problem from me with nerfing mech out of the game xD lol. The entire premise in its current state is based on turtling...= not fun to play or watch..but still very interested to watch ro16 and see what the horsemen come up with for the inevitable late game On May 21 2018 07:54 deacon.frost wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Tanks still use smartfire, aren't they? To make mech & bio viable at the same time they would have to do some crazy balance. And that would require to redesign some core units - and they don't have the balls for this. I don't blame them, it would require some crazy knowledge to redesign properly the game so both styles are viable in both non-mirror MU(and I don't think they can change just some units, IMO they would need to redesign the Protoss race and that's the core of the problem IMO). Actually the cyclone could have opened up options to make a somewhat "mobile" version of mech work. Making mech and bio viable would have been a possibility if Blizz designed the cyclone as a reliable mech footman able to provide good "general purposed" anti air, but needing mech upgrades to do so. Instead, they managed the feat to make it a horrible unit in all matchup outside of cheeses, while being extremely oppressive in early game TvT. And ajusting mech vs protoss without breaking it versus zerg would have been possible, especially by tuning units like the banshee, the thor and the liberator, or doing very niche nerfs to protoss units preventing mech from ever working. My point is that if you could make mech viable vs protoss but without being the same than against zerg or terran. Relying less on tanks, for instance. But frankly i do agree that the game is such an intense clusterfuck right now, riddled with horrible designs (blink DTs are still in the game, i find myself chuckling softly while writing it) that a throughout rework would need to be done. Whats wrong with blink dts? they give players an option to create map specific cheeses and make creative build orders. There are alot of things I think are resonable to complain about but I dont understand whats so wrong with blink dts? Dude if you don't see how giving a permanently cloacked unit the same teleportation ability than another unit of the same race while making it so long cooldown wise/tech requirement wise that it won't really be used is bad design, i don't know what to say to you. Giving a harass unit that already has an escape mechanism (high movespeed, permacloack) another one that's already identified with the stalker is so lazy and terrible. It'd be like giving ghosts the ability to jump up cliffs like reapers, but making it an fusion core-required upgrade. Ghosts have the exact same movespeed than DT, +3 sight, and are ranged and are one of the strongest caster of the game. Dt stop being viable when the other has enough detection, blink dt is an attempt to make them a bit viable as harass in lategame (with poor sucess let's admit it). Of course you're not bringing a better solution to fix the issue but ask again for another riduculous buff for terran with for only argument a biased analogy.
Watch Keen vs Sos Game 2 and come back
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On May 22 2018 00:40 Caelum93 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2018 00:34 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 21 2018 23:38 JackONeill wrote:On May 21 2018 14:31 washikie wrote:On May 21 2018 09:40 JackONeill wrote:On May 21 2018 00:25 DomeGetta wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Agree about it making mech worse since u can no longer fight hive mass air, but it's certainly a nerf to bio late game as well..if u have watched any of the games in gsl bio tvz that have gone late 100% end in mass ghost raven. Personally no problem from me with nerfing mech out of the game xD lol. The entire premise in its current state is based on turtling...= not fun to play or watch..but still very interested to watch ro16 and see what the horsemen come up with for the inevitable late game On May 21 2018 07:54 deacon.frost wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Tanks still use smartfire, aren't they? To make mech & bio viable at the same time they would have to do some crazy balance. And that would require to redesign some core units - and they don't have the balls for this. I don't blame them, it would require some crazy knowledge to redesign properly the game so both styles are viable in both non-mirror MU(and I don't think they can change just some units, IMO they would need to redesign the Protoss race and that's the core of the problem IMO). Actually the cyclone could have opened up options to make a somewhat "mobile" version of mech work. Making mech and bio viable would have been a possibility if Blizz designed the cyclone as a reliable mech footman able to provide good "general purposed" anti air, but needing mech upgrades to do so. Instead, they managed the feat to make it a horrible unit in all matchup outside of cheeses, while being extremely oppressive in early game TvT. And ajusting mech vs protoss without breaking it versus zerg would have been possible, especially by tuning units like the banshee, the thor and the liberator, or doing very niche nerfs to protoss units preventing mech from ever working. My point is that if you could make mech viable vs protoss but without being the same than against zerg or terran. Relying less on tanks, for instance. But frankly i do agree that the game is such an intense clusterfuck right now, riddled with horrible designs (blink DTs are still in the game, i find myself chuckling softly while writing it) that a throughout rework would need to be done. Whats wrong with blink dts? they give players an option to create map specific cheeses and make creative build orders. There are alot of things I think are resonable to complain about but I dont understand whats so wrong with blink dts? Dude if you don't see how giving a permanently cloacked unit the same teleportation ability than another unit of the same race while making it so long cooldown wise/tech requirement wise that it won't really be used is bad design, i don't know what to say to you. Giving a harass unit that already has an escape mechanism (high movespeed, permacloack) another one that's already identified with the stalker is so lazy and terrible. It'd be like giving ghosts the ability to jump up cliffs like reapers, but making it an fusion core-required upgrade. Ghosts have the exact same movespeed than DT, +3 sight, and are ranged and are one of the strongest caster of the game. Dt stop being viable when the other has enough detection, blink dt is an attempt to make them a bit viable as harass in lategame (with poor sucess let's admit it). Of course you're not bringing a better solution to fix the issue but ask again for another riduculous buff for terran with for only argument a biased analogy. Watch Keen vs Sos Game 2 and come back
Game 3 of GSL no ?
If it's that game, i don't understand your point, yeah sos used dt blink, but as a cheese at 7-8min and manage to kill 26 SCV because Keen wanted to push at this moment and his army was half across the map, later the blink DT harass wasn't cost effective at all, and the game never goes in lategame.
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On May 21 2018 14:29 SHODAN wrote:
Great points I agree with you, I loved old cyclone but they have their problems, I think that there a few things I'd like to add:
- 3.7 Cyclones should cost 3 supply like current cyclones.
- They did 800 damage with upgrade, IMO the upgrade is not needed, instead as you said.
- Mag field should change range, starting cyclone: 5 range on ground, 7 on air, upgrade gives cyclone 7 range on ground and 8 on air to lock on.
- Speed and health reverts agreed
- Also agree on making them reactored
- I think leaving them at their start of 400 damage would be ok, maybe reduce to 300. Considering 3.7 cyclones had very low health this is offset with the shorter range, maybe extend lock on duration so that it takes more time to deal full damage to allow for more micro options.
- If anything there should be an upgrade that gives cyclone more health, maybe make trasnformation servos give cyclones +20 health? Or add an extra upgrade, I don't know, lategame they become way too fragile for their cost.
I actually like new cyclones, you can do interesting stuff with them, but I agree that they are uninteresting and lack a lot of dept. Old cyclones fixed a bunch of things for mech in between being a fast AA, map control, by a mobile footman, being a flexible early game unit. It was actually good, it just lacked some tweaks, not an entire redesign.
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On May 22 2018 00:34 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 23:38 JackONeill wrote:On May 21 2018 14:31 washikie wrote:On May 21 2018 09:40 JackONeill wrote:On May 21 2018 00:25 DomeGetta wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Agree about it making mech worse since u can no longer fight hive mass air, but it's certainly a nerf to bio late game as well..if u have watched any of the games in gsl bio tvz that have gone late 100% end in mass ghost raven. Personally no problem from me with nerfing mech out of the game xD lol. The entire premise in its current state is based on turtling...= not fun to play or watch..but still very interested to watch ro16 and see what the horsemen come up with for the inevitable late game On May 21 2018 07:54 deacon.frost wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Tanks still use smartfire, aren't they? To make mech & bio viable at the same time they would have to do some crazy balance. And that would require to redesign some core units - and they don't have the balls for this. I don't blame them, it would require some crazy knowledge to redesign properly the game so both styles are viable in both non-mirror MU(and I don't think they can change just some units, IMO they would need to redesign the Protoss race and that's the core of the problem IMO). Actually the cyclone could have opened up options to make a somewhat "mobile" version of mech work. Making mech and bio viable would have been a possibility if Blizz designed the cyclone as a reliable mech footman able to provide good "general purposed" anti air, but needing mech upgrades to do so. Instead, they managed the feat to make it a horrible unit in all matchup outside of cheeses, while being extremely oppressive in early game TvT. And ajusting mech vs protoss without breaking it versus zerg would have been possible, especially by tuning units like the banshee, the thor and the liberator, or doing very niche nerfs to protoss units preventing mech from ever working. My point is that if you could make mech viable vs protoss but without being the same than against zerg or terran. Relying less on tanks, for instance. But frankly i do agree that the game is such an intense clusterfuck right now, riddled with horrible designs (blink DTs are still in the game, i find myself chuckling softly while writing it) that a throughout rework would need to be done. Whats wrong with blink dts? they give players an option to create map specific cheeses and make creative build orders. There are alot of things I think are resonable to complain about but I dont understand whats so wrong with blink dts? Dude if you don't see how giving a permanently cloacked unit the same teleportation ability than another unit of the same race while making it so long cooldown wise/tech requirement wise that it won't really be used is bad design, i don't know what to say to you. Giving a harass unit that already has an escape mechanism (high movespeed, permacloack) another one that's already identified with the stalker is so lazy and terrible. It'd be like giving ghosts the ability to jump up cliffs like reapers, but making it an fusion core-required upgrade. Ghosts have the exact same movespeed than DT, +3 sight, and are ranged and are one of the strongest caster of the game. Dt stop being viable when the other has enough detection, blink dt is an attempt to make them a bit viable as harass in lategame (with poor sucess let's admit it). Of course you're not bringing a better solution to fix the issue but ask again for another riduculous buff for terran with for only argument a biased analogy.
This post is amazing.
I'm trying to show how blink DTs are bad design despite the fact that the ability is barely used, by comparing it to something as ridiculous as a fusion-core required cliff-jumping ghosts, and you manage somehow to interpret it as some kind a balance revendication.
How ridiculously vindicative and obsessed are you about balance that you'd come to the conclusion that i'm advocating for cliff-jumping ghosts when i'm saying that giving blink to DTs when the ability is already associated with stalkers and incoherent with the design of the unit is bad design?
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On May 22 2018 01:00 Lexender wrote:Great points I agree with you, I loved old cyclone but they have their problems, I think that there a few things I'd like to add: - 3.7 Cyclones should cost 3 supply like current cyclones. - They did 800 damage with upgrade, IMO the upgrade is not needed, instead as you said. - Mag field should change range, starting cyclone: 5 range on ground, 7 on air, upgrade gives cyclone 7 range on ground and 8 on air to lock on. - Speed and health reverts agreed - Also agree on making them reactored - I think leaving them at their start of 400 damage would be ok, maybe reduce to 300. Considering 3.7 cyclones had very low health this is offset with the shorter range, maybe extend lock on duration so that it takes more time to deal full damage to allow for more micro options. - If anything there should be an upgrade that gives cyclone more health, maybe make trasnformation servos give cyclones +20 health? Or add an extra upgrade, I don't know, lategame they become way too fragile for their cost. I actually like new cyclones, you can do interesting stuff with them, but I agree that they are uninteresting and lack a lot of dept. Old cyclones fixed a bunch of things for mech in between being a fast AA, map control, by a mobile footman, being a flexible early game unit. It was actually good, it just lacked some tweaks, not an entire redesign.
I think there's a lot of ways that the cyclone could be designed, but what's important is the roles it can fill. The old cyclone had a triple purpose :
1) give terran early, reliable defense
2) give mech quick response units to split-pushes/drops
3) give mech some kind of "chasing ability" to prevent kiting forcing sieges from enemy armies
The current cyclone fills no roles but "early game cheese unit".
The cyclone should be a mech footman providing decent, reliable anti air throughout the game, and some amount of "chasing abilities" to help mech be less clunky.
IMO a good way of combining the two iterations of the cyclone would be to have :
- a lock-on auto attack against ground which is not an ability, and deals moderate amounts of damage but allows for the cyclone to move and give chase while firing (not a spell, therefore is influenced by armor and upgrades)
- a tornado blaster-like anti air that's most efficient when standing still
This would make the cyclone great as a reliable anti air that can also get out on the map and harass enemy ground units and respond to split pushes and drops. It would also be decent against interceptors, making mech less atrocious against carriers. Also, it would make it dependent on mech upgrades, therefore not synergizing well with bio.
From there, once the design choices are made as to which roles it's supposed to fill, numbers can be tweaked, timings can be delay through upgrades, etc.
(sorry for double post)
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On May 22 2018 01:22 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2018 00:34 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 21 2018 23:38 JackONeill wrote:On May 21 2018 14:31 washikie wrote:On May 21 2018 09:40 JackONeill wrote:On May 21 2018 00:25 DomeGetta wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Agree about it making mech worse since u can no longer fight hive mass air, but it's certainly a nerf to bio late game as well..if u have watched any of the games in gsl bio tvz that have gone late 100% end in mass ghost raven. Personally no problem from me with nerfing mech out of the game xD lol. The entire premise in its current state is based on turtling...= not fun to play or watch..but still very interested to watch ro16 and see what the horsemen come up with for the inevitable late game On May 21 2018 07:54 deacon.frost wrote:On May 20 2018 23:47 JackONeill wrote:
Actually this patch is much more damaging to mech than it is to terran. Marauder buff and viking health should indeed make bio midgame a little stronger, while not impacting late game that much since the raven wasn't really used en masse with bio.
Thing is, mech's now :
- horrible in TvP : always has been, but ravens/cyclones don't combo as well
- really bad in TvT : marauder buff, raven nerf and viking buff means the raven is not as good to prevent mass vikings/libs on superior economy
- mediocre to bad in TvZ : mainly since lots of BL/corru/vipers has no credible counter. Abduct thors, parabomb vikings, and there's not much terran can do. Ghost/libs should be still working but there's no reason to go mech then. Also the missile nerf makes playing against swarm hosts and hydras much tougher in the late game.
Blizz seems to be caught in an endless "terran's too weak" => "buff bio nerf mech" => "mech's not viable" => "implement some really bad designs to make mech viable" => "blanket nerf because of bad designs" => "terran's too weak" Tanks still use smartfire, aren't they? To make mech & bio viable at the same time they would have to do some crazy balance. And that would require to redesign some core units - and they don't have the balls for this. I don't blame them, it would require some crazy knowledge to redesign properly the game so both styles are viable in both non-mirror MU(and I don't think they can change just some units, IMO they would need to redesign the Protoss race and that's the core of the problem IMO). Actually the cyclone could have opened up options to make a somewhat "mobile" version of mech work. Making mech and bio viable would have been a possibility if Blizz designed the cyclone as a reliable mech footman able to provide good "general purposed" anti air, but needing mech upgrades to do so. Instead, they managed the feat to make it a horrible unit in all matchup outside of cheeses, while being extremely oppressive in early game TvT. And ajusting mech vs protoss without breaking it versus zerg would have been possible, especially by tuning units like the banshee, the thor and the liberator, or doing very niche nerfs to protoss units preventing mech from ever working. My point is that if you could make mech viable vs protoss but without being the same than against zerg or terran. Relying less on tanks, for instance. But frankly i do agree that the game is such an intense clusterfuck right now, riddled with horrible designs (blink DTs are still in the game, i find myself chuckling softly while writing it) that a throughout rework would need to be done. Whats wrong with blink dts? they give players an option to create map specific cheeses and make creative build orders. There are alot of things I think are resonable to complain about but I dont understand whats so wrong with blink dts? Dude if you don't see how giving a permanently cloacked unit the same teleportation ability than another unit of the same race while making it so long cooldown wise/tech requirement wise that it won't really be used is bad design, i don't know what to say to you. Giving a harass unit that already has an escape mechanism (high movespeed, permacloack) another one that's already identified with the stalker is so lazy and terrible. It'd be like giving ghosts the ability to jump up cliffs like reapers, but making it an fusion core-required upgrade. Ghosts have the exact same movespeed than DT, +3 sight, and are ranged and are one of the strongest caster of the game. Dt stop being viable when the other has enough detection, blink dt is an attempt to make them a bit viable as harass in lategame (with poor sucess let's admit it). Of course you're not bringing a better solution to fix the issue but ask again for another riduculous buff for terran with for only argument a biased analogy. This post is amazing. I'm trying to show how blink DTs are bad design despite the fact that the ability is barely used, by comparing it to something as ridiculous as a fusion-core required cliff-jumping ghosts, and you manage somehow to interpret it as some kind a balance revendication. How ridiculously vindicative and obsessed are you about balance that you'd come to the conclusion that i'm advocating for cliff-jumping ghosts when i'm saying that giving blink to DTs when the ability is already associated with stalkers and incoherent with the design of the unit is bad design?
Saw "I'd like" instead of "it'd like" sorry
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