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On May 19 2018 00:10 MrWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2018 21:52 avilo wrote:On May 17 2018 18:41 Poopi wrote:On May 17 2018 17:16 Anoss wrote:On May 17 2018 16:58 EXRNaRa wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary Me neither. Think before you write. Most of ur „arguments“ are pretty pointless and i don‘t even know why i continued reading your wall of text after the first couple of sentences. Sometimes you are in the wrong side of the wall, but you are still thinking that you think right. Despite of how you analyse my argue, this game is not growing up, and on this planet, if you are not growing up you are dying. That's mean i'm right on one thing : All the people who are thinking like you, will leave the game soon, and start less playing, it's mathematics. So if you think this game is great you are the minority. I know a lot of guys with SC2 on the DD but no way they launch it. 4 years ago they was all Dia, all SC2 maniacs. They have some argues to explain why they dont play anymore, but it seems nobody cares. So yeah sorry to disturb, that was i promise my last commentary on TL/ Blizzard thread. Gl gl for next game Player base won't grow much no matter how good Blizzard balance team is because the majority of players want semi-casual games à la Overwatch, LoL, Fortnite, or whatever latest trendy game. Wrong. You know the difference between those games and what's happened with SC2? I've said this for years...i still say it today. Those games get balance patches C O N S T A N T L Y. They get updates C O N S T A N T L Y. SC2 gets this patch that really messes up Terran late game, and it will receive no revert, and no patches now for months because it's the way blizzard patches their games. They release a patch and won't admit it was a mistake or wrong ever. What they do is, next patch, when they and people realize Terran lategame is screwed...they will complicate the problem further by randomly buffing/nerfing something else instead of reverting the original thing they screwed up. Look at LoL - they did a complete basically 100% Leblanc revert. They admitted they screwed up the champion, and did a full revert to her, sure it took a bit, but they did. But they constantly are making changes, patch changes that actually are impactful and change the meta and balance. Same for Fortnite. Constant game updates, whether to cosmetics or even adding new weapons into the game, and even removing weapons flat out from the game that are bad for the game. Case in point - the guided missile that was in the game for a few weeks, and then flat out removed because it was bad for the game. SC2 will take this balance patch, it will be horrendous for T lategame for the coming months, and then we'll get a balance post from blizzard months from now about how they think Terran might not be doing well lategame, and that they're keeping an eye on it. 3 months after that, they'll release another post saying - "we're going to make a change for Terran lategame since we may have taken too much power away from the raven. We're going to give BCS +10 HP as compensation." aka they'll make an irrelevant change that doesn't address the problem, and then that patch will STICK for the next months with the problem persisting in the game. That's why SC2 has come to this point that it is at nowadays. DEVELOPER EGO. They do not want to admit any fault when it comes to SC2, or a lack of knowledge of the game. I invite Blizzard to discuss mech / lategame balance with myself, and someone like me that has mega insight into long 20+ minute games can help them put meaningful changes into the game. I'd even challenge the guys running "the pylon" to have me on their show if they are brave enough to discuss these recent patch changes and what's currently wrong with SC2 - doubtful they will be brave enough to do that though, because no one wants to discuss actual reality when it comes to SC2. Players / streamers from LoL for example the streamer anniebot was contacted before by Riot when they wanted to re-balance/adjust annie. Blizzard should be doing the same thing in SC2 - get into contact with a player like myself that's used mass raven/mech for years, so that i can give them insight and offer them changes that won't break the game but will get mass raven out of the game while offering Terran lategame to not be an autoloss. I've reached out to them before, with ZERO ANSWER. If anyone wonders why i've been vocal and upset and it might seem like i shit talk the devs sometimes or am not tactful - it's because i've reached out already plenty of times with zero response, so they either do not care or do not value the opinion of someone who has expertise on units in the game like ravens or lategame scenarios. The truth of the matter is this most recent patch is just flat out terrible. There is no way to really sugar coat it, it's just a bad patch in many ways, including the map pool, but mostly because it nerfs 1/3 races lategame without touching the other two. How is it remotely fair to remove Terran's lategame while not touching the other two races? This makes no sense. The depressing thing is that regardless of balance, we'll all be stuck with this patch for the next however many months until we get a blizzard post saying they're looking into maybe possibly changing things, with no reverts on bad changes. Good thing that blizzard hasn't contacted you, haven't heard too many good things about balance from your side.
If you guys want to shitpost on everything he says you should at least attempt to counter his arguments..the "well you're avilo.." argument is not really doing it for me. Marauder buff isnt going to impact the final condition late game comp that includes broodlords vipers infestors queens and mass static unless you count killing spores very slightly faster lol. The raven was the answer to zerg getting free air control which is what is required to get to this comp..nothing in this patch compensates for that. The viking hp is a literal nothing. This buff will impact tvz on a supppper narrow timing where ultras are first coming out before proper late game. To that point i can see blizz trying to prevent the super late games as they arent good to view..but this does create a problem..we have seen what happens every time the meta develops into kill x race before y timing...eventually x race figures out how to survive until after y and the imbalance gets out of control...not saying 100% thats going to happen..it can also end up the other way where x race simply cant..but based on what ive seen so far its looking like the former..the tvp implications are similar with an earlier and more intense impact imo.. time will tell
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On May 19 2018 00:51 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2018 00:10 MrWayne wrote:On May 18 2018 21:52 avilo wrote:On May 17 2018 18:41 Poopi wrote:On May 17 2018 17:16 Anoss wrote:On May 17 2018 16:58 EXRNaRa wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary Me neither. Think before you write. Most of ur „arguments“ are pretty pointless and i don‘t even know why i continued reading your wall of text after the first couple of sentences. Sometimes you are in the wrong side of the wall, but you are still thinking that you think right. Despite of how you analyse my argue, this game is not growing up, and on this planet, if you are not growing up you are dying. That's mean i'm right on one thing : All the people who are thinking like you, will leave the game soon, and start less playing, it's mathematics. So if you think this game is great you are the minority. I know a lot of guys with SC2 on the DD but no way they launch it. 4 years ago they was all Dia, all SC2 maniacs. They have some argues to explain why they dont play anymore, but it seems nobody cares. So yeah sorry to disturb, that was i promise my last commentary on TL/ Blizzard thread. Gl gl for next game Player base won't grow much no matter how good Blizzard balance team is because the majority of players want semi-casual games à la Overwatch, LoL, Fortnite, or whatever latest trendy game. Wrong. You know the difference between those games and what's happened with SC2? I've said this for years...i still say it today. Those games get balance patches C O N S T A N T L Y. They get updates C O N S T A N T L Y. SC2 gets this patch that really messes up Terran late game, and it will receive no revert, and no patches now for months because it's the way blizzard patches their games. They release a patch and won't admit it was a mistake or wrong ever. What they do is, next patch, when they and people realize Terran lategame is screwed...they will complicate the problem further by randomly buffing/nerfing something else instead of reverting the original thing they screwed up. Look at LoL - they did a complete basically 100% Leblanc revert. They admitted they screwed up the champion, and did a full revert to her, sure it took a bit, but they did. But they constantly are making changes, patch changes that actually are impactful and change the meta and balance. Same for Fortnite. Constant game updates, whether to cosmetics or even adding new weapons into the game, and even removing weapons flat out from the game that are bad for the game. Case in point - the guided missile that was in the game for a few weeks, and then flat out removed because it was bad for the game. SC2 will take this balance patch, it will be horrendous for T lategame for the coming months, and then we'll get a balance post from blizzard months from now about how they think Terran might not be doing well lategame, and that they're keeping an eye on it. 3 months after that, they'll release another post saying - "we're going to make a change for Terran lategame since we may have taken too much power away from the raven. We're going to give BCS +10 HP as compensation." aka they'll make an irrelevant change that doesn't address the problem, and then that patch will STICK for the next months with the problem persisting in the game. That's why SC2 has come to this point that it is at nowadays. DEVELOPER EGO. They do not want to admit any fault when it comes to SC2, or a lack of knowledge of the game. I invite Blizzard to discuss mech / lategame balance with myself, and someone like me that has mega insight into long 20+ minute games can help them put meaningful changes into the game. I'd even challenge the guys running "the pylon" to have me on their show if they are brave enough to discuss these recent patch changes and what's currently wrong with SC2 - doubtful they will be brave enough to do that though, because no one wants to discuss actual reality when it comes to SC2. Players / streamers from LoL for example the streamer anniebot was contacted before by Riot when they wanted to re-balance/adjust annie. Blizzard should be doing the same thing in SC2 - get into contact with a player like myself that's used mass raven/mech for years, so that i can give them insight and offer them changes that won't break the game but will get mass raven out of the game while offering Terran lategame to not be an autoloss. I've reached out to them before, with ZERO ANSWER. If anyone wonders why i've been vocal and upset and it might seem like i shit talk the devs sometimes or am not tactful - it's because i've reached out already plenty of times with zero response, so they either do not care or do not value the opinion of someone who has expertise on units in the game like ravens or lategame scenarios. The truth of the matter is this most recent patch is just flat out terrible. There is no way to really sugar coat it, it's just a bad patch in many ways, including the map pool, but mostly because it nerfs 1/3 races lategame without touching the other two. How is it remotely fair to remove Terran's lategame while not touching the other two races? This makes no sense. The depressing thing is that regardless of balance, we'll all be stuck with this patch for the next however many months until we get a blizzard post saying they're looking into maybe possibly changing things, with no reverts on bad changes. Good thing that blizzard hasn't contacted you, haven't heard too many good things about balance from your side. If you guys want to shitpost on everything he says you should at least attempt to counter his arguments..the "well you're avilo.." argument is not really doing it for me. Marauder buff isnt going to impact the final condition late game comp that includes broodlords vipers infestors queens and mass static unless you count killing spores very slightly faster lol. The raven was the answer to zerg getting free air control which is what is required to get to this comp..nothing in this patch compensates for that. The viking hp is a literal nothing. This buff will impact tvz on a supppper narrow timing where ultras are first coming out before proper late game. To that point i can see blizz trying to prevent the super late games as they arent good to view..but this does create a problem..we have seen what happens every time the meta develops into kill x race before y timing...eventually x race figures out how to survive until after y and the imbalance gets out of control...not saying 100% thats going to happen..it can also end up the other way where x race simply cant..but based on what ive seen so far its looking like the former..the tvp implications are similar with an earlier and more intense impact imo.. time will tell
You realize that literally the entirety of HotS (except turtle mech, and I'm sure avilo loved that era) was based around Terran killing Protoss and Zerg before a certain time? Terran will be fine, and if not, more buffs will come.
Also worth noting that Blizzard does listen to the pros. They specifically solicit feedback from GSL, and I distinctly remember Major saying he asked Blizzard for a Marauder revert way back near 4.0. It took them a few months, but here it is. I used to distrust the balance team, but my faith in them has only grown over the past year or so. Not saying that balance is or will be perfect, but their changes have definitely been trending in a positive direction.
The fact that the balance team is clearly ignoring avilo, assuming they even noticed him at all, can only help that.
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On May 19 2018 01:25 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2018 00:51 DomeGetta wrote:On May 19 2018 00:10 MrWayne wrote:On May 18 2018 21:52 avilo wrote:On May 17 2018 18:41 Poopi wrote:On May 17 2018 17:16 Anoss wrote:On May 17 2018 16:58 EXRNaRa wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary Me neither. Think before you write. Most of ur „arguments“ are pretty pointless and i don‘t even know why i continued reading your wall of text after the first couple of sentences. Sometimes you are in the wrong side of the wall, but you are still thinking that you think right. Despite of how you analyse my argue, this game is not growing up, and on this planet, if you are not growing up you are dying. That's mean i'm right on one thing : All the people who are thinking like you, will leave the game soon, and start less playing, it's mathematics. So if you think this game is great you are the minority. I know a lot of guys with SC2 on the DD but no way they launch it. 4 years ago they was all Dia, all SC2 maniacs. They have some argues to explain why they dont play anymore, but it seems nobody cares. So yeah sorry to disturb, that was i promise my last commentary on TL/ Blizzard thread. Gl gl for next game Player base won't grow much no matter how good Blizzard balance team is because the majority of players want semi-casual games à la Overwatch, LoL, Fortnite, or whatever latest trendy game. Wrong. You know the difference between those games and what's happened with SC2? I've said this for years...i still say it today. Those games get balance patches C O N S T A N T L Y. They get updates C O N S T A N T L Y. SC2 gets this patch that really messes up Terran late game, and it will receive no revert, and no patches now for months because it's the way blizzard patches their games. They release a patch and won't admit it was a mistake or wrong ever. What they do is, next patch, when they and people realize Terran lategame is screwed...they will complicate the problem further by randomly buffing/nerfing something else instead of reverting the original thing they screwed up. Look at LoL - they did a complete basically 100% Leblanc revert. They admitted they screwed up the champion, and did a full revert to her, sure it took a bit, but they did. But they constantly are making changes, patch changes that actually are impactful and change the meta and balance. Same for Fortnite. Constant game updates, whether to cosmetics or even adding new weapons into the game, and even removing weapons flat out from the game that are bad for the game. Case in point - the guided missile that was in the game for a few weeks, and then flat out removed because it was bad for the game. SC2 will take this balance patch, it will be horrendous for T lategame for the coming months, and then we'll get a balance post from blizzard months from now about how they think Terran might not be doing well lategame, and that they're keeping an eye on it. 3 months after that, they'll release another post saying - "we're going to make a change for Terran lategame since we may have taken too much power away from the raven. We're going to give BCS +10 HP as compensation." aka they'll make an irrelevant change that doesn't address the problem, and then that patch will STICK for the next months with the problem persisting in the game. That's why SC2 has come to this point that it is at nowadays. DEVELOPER EGO. They do not want to admit any fault when it comes to SC2, or a lack of knowledge of the game. I invite Blizzard to discuss mech / lategame balance with myself, and someone like me that has mega insight into long 20+ minute games can help them put meaningful changes into the game. I'd even challenge the guys running "the pylon" to have me on their show if they are brave enough to discuss these recent patch changes and what's currently wrong with SC2 - doubtful they will be brave enough to do that though, because no one wants to discuss actual reality when it comes to SC2. Players / streamers from LoL for example the streamer anniebot was contacted before by Riot when they wanted to re-balance/adjust annie. Blizzard should be doing the same thing in SC2 - get into contact with a player like myself that's used mass raven/mech for years, so that i can give them insight and offer them changes that won't break the game but will get mass raven out of the game while offering Terran lategame to not be an autoloss. I've reached out to them before, with ZERO ANSWER. If anyone wonders why i've been vocal and upset and it might seem like i shit talk the devs sometimes or am not tactful - it's because i've reached out already plenty of times with zero response, so they either do not care or do not value the opinion of someone who has expertise on units in the game like ravens or lategame scenarios. The truth of the matter is this most recent patch is just flat out terrible. There is no way to really sugar coat it, it's just a bad patch in many ways, including the map pool, but mostly because it nerfs 1/3 races lategame without touching the other two. How is it remotely fair to remove Terran's lategame while not touching the other two races? This makes no sense. The depressing thing is that regardless of balance, we'll all be stuck with this patch for the next however many months until we get a blizzard post saying they're looking into maybe possibly changing things, with no reverts on bad changes. Good thing that blizzard hasn't contacted you, haven't heard too many good things about balance from your side. If you guys want to shitpost on everything he says you should at least attempt to counter his arguments..the "well you're avilo.." argument is not really doing it for me. Marauder buff isnt going to impact the final condition late game comp that includes broodlords vipers infestors queens and mass static unless you count killing spores very slightly faster lol. The raven was the answer to zerg getting free air control which is what is required to get to this comp..nothing in this patch compensates for that. The viking hp is a literal nothing. This buff will impact tvz on a supppper narrow timing where ultras are first coming out before proper late game. To that point i can see blizz trying to prevent the super late games as they arent good to view..but this does create a problem..we have seen what happens every time the meta develops into kill x race before y timing...eventually x race figures out how to survive until after y and the imbalance gets out of control...not saying 100% thats going to happen..it can also end up the other way where x race simply cant..but based on what ive seen so far its looking like the former..the tvp implications are similar with an earlier and more intense impact imo.. time will tell You realize that literally the entirety of HotS (except turtle mech, and I'm sure avilo loved that era) was based around Terran killing Protoss and Zerg before a certain time? Terran will be fine, and if not, more buffs will come. Also worth noting that Blizzard does listen to the pros. They specifically solicit feedback from GSL, and I distinctly remember Major saying he asked Blizzard for a Marauder revert way back near 4.0. It took them a few months, but here it is. I used to distrust the balance team, but my faith in them has only grown over the past year or so. Not saying that balance is or will be perfect, but their changes have definitely been trending in a positive direction. The fact that the balance team is clearly ignoring avilo, assuming they even noticed him at all, can only help that.
Getting feedback from GSL players that basically are playing in their own little tournament eco system is absolutely HORRENDOUS for game balance.
No one cares what 10 guys in GSL want for their personally balanced games that they play against solely each other in the tournament.
GSL tournament play, or any other tournament is not equivalent to the overall balance of the game. Players are mega biased for their races in GSL and other stuff. Just because a player is a "progamer" doesn't mean they have a clue about game balance or game design. Most pros are notoriously terrible when it comes to judging game balance and design.
The balance team isn't ignoring "avilo." They're ignoring objective late game scenarios that pop up incredibly often. Brood/viper/infestor/spores and carrier/high templar/tempest will remain exactly the same as the previous patch, but now Terran in this situation is massively weaker with no compensatory nerfs to P/Z or compensatory buffs (marauder/viking buffs do NOTHIGN in these late game energy unit situations).
Is there anyone that has an argument on why Terran lategame just received a severe nerf without corresponding nerfs to the other two races? The only argument anyone can provide is "marauder/viking" will make T mid-game stronger, allowing you to "avoid lategame."
That's the only argument that can be presented and it's based off the entire premise "kill them before they get there, and if you don't you lose the game now."
How is that game balance acceptable for anyone that plays this game? People should literally be up in arms over the raven nerfs, because it's one of the worst changes to hit the game in a very long time, from an objective balance standpoint.
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i think its great that Blizzard is promoting PIG's beginner videos. His videos have really helped 2 of my friends who were reluctant to make the jump from P. v. E. type SC2 games to true PvP.
Great work by PIG and smart decision making by Blizzard in recognizing how good his videos are for beginning PvPers.
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@avilo, I lost the will to be up in arms after the cyclone changes. TvT is as bad as roach vs roach now.
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On May 18 2018 23:45 Pentarp wrote:
lol@avilo. shit on bio terrans more.
terrans got a late-game buff (versus zergs) in the form of marauder-buff. marauders are also buffed mid-game versus protoss against upgraded (armor) zealots.
you get no sympathy from me. learn to be what you call a "bio-whore"
Marauders are now a late-game unit
Requires fusion core, armory
Concussive shells research time changed to 160 seconds
Supply cost increased to 7
Damage and health stats remain unchanged
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On May 19 2018 05:04 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2018 01:25 pvsnp wrote:On May 19 2018 00:51 DomeGetta wrote:On May 19 2018 00:10 MrWayne wrote:On May 18 2018 21:52 avilo wrote:On May 17 2018 18:41 Poopi wrote:On May 17 2018 17:16 Anoss wrote:On May 17 2018 16:58 EXRNaRa wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary Me neither. Think before you write. Most of ur „arguments“ are pretty pointless and i don‘t even know why i continued reading your wall of text after the first couple of sentences. Sometimes you are in the wrong side of the wall, but you are still thinking that you think right. Despite of how you analyse my argue, this game is not growing up, and on this planet, if you are not growing up you are dying. That's mean i'm right on one thing : All the people who are thinking like you, will leave the game soon, and start less playing, it's mathematics. So if you think this game is great you are the minority. I know a lot of guys with SC2 on the DD but no way they launch it. 4 years ago they was all Dia, all SC2 maniacs. They have some argues to explain why they dont play anymore, but it seems nobody cares. So yeah sorry to disturb, that was i promise my last commentary on TL/ Blizzard thread. Gl gl for next game Player base won't grow much no matter how good Blizzard balance team is because the majority of players want semi-casual games à la Overwatch, LoL, Fortnite, or whatever latest trendy game. Wrong. You know the difference between those games and what's happened with SC2? I've said this for years...i still say it today. Those games get balance patches C O N S T A N T L Y. They get updates C O N S T A N T L Y. SC2 gets this patch that really messes up Terran late game, and it will receive no revert, and no patches now for months because it's the way blizzard patches their games. They release a patch and won't admit it was a mistake or wrong ever. What they do is, next patch, when they and people realize Terran lategame is screwed...they will complicate the problem further by randomly buffing/nerfing something else instead of reverting the original thing they screwed up. Look at LoL - they did a complete basically 100% Leblanc revert. They admitted they screwed up the champion, and did a full revert to her, sure it took a bit, but they did. But they constantly are making changes, patch changes that actually are impactful and change the meta and balance. Same for Fortnite. Constant game updates, whether to cosmetics or even adding new weapons into the game, and even removing weapons flat out from the game that are bad for the game. Case in point - the guided missile that was in the game for a few weeks, and then flat out removed because it was bad for the game. SC2 will take this balance patch, it will be horrendous for T lategame for the coming months, and then we'll get a balance post from blizzard months from now about how they think Terran might not be doing well lategame, and that they're keeping an eye on it. 3 months after that, they'll release another post saying - "we're going to make a change for Terran lategame since we may have taken too much power away from the raven. We're going to give BCS +10 HP as compensation." aka they'll make an irrelevant change that doesn't address the problem, and then that patch will STICK for the next months with the problem persisting in the game. That's why SC2 has come to this point that it is at nowadays. DEVELOPER EGO. They do not want to admit any fault when it comes to SC2, or a lack of knowledge of the game. I invite Blizzard to discuss mech / lategame balance with myself, and someone like me that has mega insight into long 20+ minute games can help them put meaningful changes into the game. I'd even challenge the guys running "the pylon" to have me on their show if they are brave enough to discuss these recent patch changes and what's currently wrong with SC2 - doubtful they will be brave enough to do that though, because no one wants to discuss actual reality when it comes to SC2. Players / streamers from LoL for example the streamer anniebot was contacted before by Riot when they wanted to re-balance/adjust annie. Blizzard should be doing the same thing in SC2 - get into contact with a player like myself that's used mass raven/mech for years, so that i can give them insight and offer them changes that won't break the game but will get mass raven out of the game while offering Terran lategame to not be an autoloss. I've reached out to them before, with ZERO ANSWER. If anyone wonders why i've been vocal and upset and it might seem like i shit talk the devs sometimes or am not tactful - it's because i've reached out already plenty of times with zero response, so they either do not care or do not value the opinion of someone who has expertise on units in the game like ravens or lategame scenarios. The truth of the matter is this most recent patch is just flat out terrible. There is no way to really sugar coat it, it's just a bad patch in many ways, including the map pool, but mostly because it nerfs 1/3 races lategame without touching the other two. How is it remotely fair to remove Terran's lategame while not touching the other two races? This makes no sense. The depressing thing is that regardless of balance, we'll all be stuck with this patch for the next however many months until we get a blizzard post saying they're looking into maybe possibly changing things, with no reverts on bad changes. Good thing that blizzard hasn't contacted you, haven't heard too many good things about balance from your side. If you guys want to shitpost on everything he says you should at least attempt to counter his arguments..the "well you're avilo.." argument is not really doing it for me. Marauder buff isnt going to impact the final condition late game comp that includes broodlords vipers infestors queens and mass static unless you count killing spores very slightly faster lol. The raven was the answer to zerg getting free air control which is what is required to get to this comp..nothing in this patch compensates for that. The viking hp is a literal nothing. This buff will impact tvz on a supppper narrow timing where ultras are first coming out before proper late game. To that point i can see blizz trying to prevent the super late games as they arent good to view..but this does create a problem..we have seen what happens every time the meta develops into kill x race before y timing...eventually x race figures out how to survive until after y and the imbalance gets out of control...not saying 100% thats going to happen..it can also end up the other way where x race simply cant..but based on what ive seen so far its looking like the former..the tvp implications are similar with an earlier and more intense impact imo.. time will tell You realize that literally the entirety of HotS (except turtle mech, and I'm sure avilo loved that era) was based around Terran killing Protoss and Zerg before a certain time? Terran will be fine, and if not, more buffs will come. Also worth noting that Blizzard does listen to the pros. They specifically solicit feedback from GSL, and I distinctly remember Major saying he asked Blizzard for a Marauder revert way back near 4.0. It took them a few months, but here it is. I used to distrust the balance team, but my faith in them has only grown over the past year or so. Not saying that balance is or will be perfect, but their changes have definitely been trending in a positive direction. The fact that the balance team is clearly ignoring avilo, assuming they even noticed him at all, can only help that. Getting feedback from GSL players that basically are playing in their own little tournament eco system is absolutely HORRENDOUS for game balance. No one cares what 10 guys in GSL want for their personally balanced games that they play against solely each other in the tournament. GSL tournament play, or any other tournament is not equivalent to the overall balance of the game. Players are mega biased for their races in GSL and other stuff. Just because a player is a "progamer" doesn't mean they have a clue about game balance or game design. Most pros are notoriously terrible when it comes to judging game balance and design. The balance team isn't ignoring "avilo." They're ignoring objective late game scenarios that pop up incredibly often. Brood/viper/infestor/spores and carrier/high templar/tempest will remain exactly the same as the previous patch, but now Terran in this situation is massively weaker with no compensatory nerfs to P/Z or compensatory buffs (marauder/viking buffs do NOTHIGN in these late game energy unit situations). Is there anyone that has an argument on why Terran lategame just received a severe nerf without corresponding nerfs to the other two races? The only argument anyone can provide is "marauder/viking" will make T mid-game stronger, allowing you to "avoid lategame." That's the only argument that can be presented and it's based off the entire premise "kill them before they get there, and if you don't you lose the game now." How is that game balance acceptable for anyone that plays this game? People should literally be up in arms over the raven nerfs, because it's one of the worst changes to hit the game in a very long time, from an objective balance standpoint.
I've been called a Terran Whiner™ here on TL, and more than once at that. It's good to know that, biased as I may be, I am still not in agreement with avilo. If that ever changes, then I will know I am truly lost.
Lest I be accused of dismissing avilo solely because he is avilo, I'll elaborate:
Technically speaking, within the confines of an arbitrary and artificial "lategame" boundary outlined in his post, avilo is correct. Terran lategame has been nerfed by this balance patch. Not that this is some groundbreaking revelation; Blizzard explicitly announced that much themselves:
...we feel good about continuing with our plans to reduce Anti-Armor Missile’s late-game strength and improve Terran‘s mid-game strength in the TvP matchup.
This change decreases its late-game damage potential while minimally affecting utility in the mid-game...
While we felt this change would have similar effects in the late-game, we thought this would be too much of a hit to its mid-game strength...
We realize Terrans will take a hit to their late-game strength due to the Anti-Armor Missile change...
As for TvP, we believe this change will improve Terran’s ability to apply more consistent pressure during the mid game.
And most important of all:
...as we mentioned in the last community update, we’d like to focus more on how Terran’s mid-game power scales into the late-game, which will hopefully grant Terrans with more control over that transition.
Blizzard is very literally spelling out its (perfectly sound) logic to avilo and anyone else that actually reads what they write instead of knee-jerk raging about nerfs to their own race and/or buffs to any other race.
It's true that Terran lategame is now weaker than it used to be, and weaker than that of Protoss and Zerg. If every SC2 game started at the 20 minute mark, Terran would be in for a world of hurt. Fortunately, and either unknown or neglected by avilo and his ilk, the game starts about 20 minutes earlier. The lategame strength of Protoss and Zerg deathballs means jack shit if they have no workers, no bases, and no economy to support such a deathball. Or if they already gg'd out.
Now some people will undoubtedly bitch about how this argument amounts to "kill them before they get there." And that's true to a certain extent, I'm saying more or less that Terran needs to kill Protoss and Zerg before they get there. The thing is, "kill them before they get there" is terrible advice–not to mention a disingenuous defense of imbalance–when Terran lacked the tools to actually, well, kill Protoss/Zerg before they got there. But now that Blizzard has kindly accommodated by buffing Terran midgame, "kill them before they get there" is a viable strategy (presuming that the midgame buffs work as intended, if not then Blizzard will buff Terran some more).
Moreover, of all races to carry the burden of "kill them before they get there," Terran is undoubtedly the best. The nature of Terran is such that–when properly balanced–it has the largest number of aggressive options, the most mobile ground army (bio) and also the strongest ground army (mech). Furthermore, Terran simultaneously has the greatest ability to turtle, with siege lines, planetaries, sensor towers, and mules. Most of the time, Terran should be the one attacking, taking advantage of their greater offensive capability. When this state of affairs is reversed, with Terran mostly defending, we get the cancerous sort of turtling that drags the game on endlessly. It is metas in which Terran goes for a supreme lategame that inevitably encourage such cancerous turtling, as seen in the turtle mech era and more recently with 30-damage AAM.
And the cherry on the cake is that the Raven wasn't changed for GSL. While GSL-level balance was of course a factor, it was games like Clem vs Guru that truly displayed the disgusting potential of a Raven-based meta. GSL-level players are too skilled to allow the game to degenerate to such a state, but at lower levels, well, just go and rewatch the game.
If a race has stronger defense than offense, any rational player will very obviously chose to defend instead of attack. The very identity of Terran as a race revolves around its offensive capabilities and aggressive timings, while Protoss and Zerg assume the defensive role in PvT and ZvT. Handing Terran a superior defensive tool like 30-damage AAM removes the incentive to be aggressive. Since Protoss and Zerg were already defending, Terran also defends and voila, a game with no aggression, no engagements, no interest, and no entertainment. Refer to Clem vs Guru.
TL;DR: AAM was breaking the identity of Terran. Now Terran has a weaker lategame and a stronger midgame. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
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On May 19 2018 06:40 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2018 23:45 Pentarp wrote:
lol@avilo. shit on bio terrans more.
terrans got a late-game buff (versus zergs) in the form of marauder-buff. marauders are also buffed mid-game versus protoss against upgraded (armor) zealots.
you get no sympathy from me. learn to be what you call a "bio-whore"
Marauders are now a late-game unit Requires fusion core, armory Concussive shells research time changed to 160 seconds Supply cost increased to 7 Damage and health stats remain unchanged
I really have to question your knowledge of the game when you don't see how marauders being able to kill ultralisks affects late game in TvZ.
I bet you also think that Terran is designed around "tiers" a la "AMG TIER 1 UNIT SHOULDNT KILL TIER 3 UNIT WAHHHHH". We have Zergs crying how their ultras are melting, and then we have people like you.
/edit
Anyone remember back in WoL how BL/Infestor (in TvZ) became suddenly more prevalent AFTER queen range buff?
This made it so that Zergs could skip roach tech and defend versus hellions with only queens, making the late-game transition faster and easier.
Let's check the tech requirements for queens. According to you, queens require hive tech. Am I doing this right?
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On May 19 2018 08:13 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2018 06:40 SHODAN wrote:On May 18 2018 23:45 Pentarp wrote:
lol@avilo. shit on bio terrans more.
terrans got a late-game buff (versus zergs) in the form of marauder-buff. marauders are also buffed mid-game versus protoss against upgraded (armor) zealots.
you get no sympathy from me. learn to be what you call a "bio-whore"
Marauders are now a late-game unit Requires fusion core, armory Concussive shells research time changed to 160 seconds Supply cost increased to 7 Damage and health stats remain unchanged I really have to question your knowledge of the game when you don't see how marauders being able to kill ultralisks affects late game in TvZ. I bet you also think that Terran is designed around "tiers" a la "AMG TIER 1 UNIT SHOULDNT KILL TIER 3 UNIT WAHHHHH". We have Zergs crying how their ultras are melting, and then we have people like you. Let's check the tech requirements for queens. According to you, queens require hive tech. Am I doing this right?
golly gosh, you sure inferred a lot from not very much at all. if you want my opinions on late game TvZ, why don't you just ask me? lol
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On May 19 2018 08:46 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2018 08:13 Pentarp wrote:On May 19 2018 06:40 SHODAN wrote:On May 18 2018 23:45 Pentarp wrote:
lol@avilo. shit on bio terrans more.
terrans got a late-game buff (versus zergs) in the form of marauder-buff. marauders are also buffed mid-game versus protoss against upgraded (armor) zealots.
you get no sympathy from me. learn to be what you call a "bio-whore"
Marauders are now a late-game unit Requires fusion core, armory Concussive shells research time changed to 160 seconds Supply cost increased to 7 Damage and health stats remain unchanged I really have to question your knowledge of the game when you don't see how marauders being able to kill ultralisks affects late game in TvZ. I bet you also think that Terran is designed around "tiers" a la "AMG TIER 1 UNIT SHOULDNT KILL TIER 3 UNIT WAHHHHH". We have Zergs crying how their ultras are melting, and then we have people like you. Let's check the tech requirements for queens. According to you, queens require hive tech. Am I doing this right? golly gosh, you sure inferred a lot from not very much at all. if you want my opinions on late game TvZ, why don't you just ask me? lol
No, lets do what you do and make a sarcastic shitpost about how "marauders are now a lategame unit".
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On May 19 2018 07:06 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2018 05:04 avilo wrote:On May 19 2018 01:25 pvsnp wrote:On May 19 2018 00:51 DomeGetta wrote:On May 19 2018 00:10 MrWayne wrote:On May 18 2018 21:52 avilo wrote:On May 17 2018 18:41 Poopi wrote:On May 17 2018 17:16 Anoss wrote:On May 17 2018 16:58 EXRNaRa wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary Me neither. Think before you write. Most of ur „arguments“ are pretty pointless and i don‘t even know why i continued reading your wall of text after the first couple of sentences. Sometimes you are in the wrong side of the wall, but you are still thinking that you think right. Despite of how you analyse my argue, this game is not growing up, and on this planet, if you are not growing up you are dying. That's mean i'm right on one thing : All the people who are thinking like you, will leave the game soon, and start less playing, it's mathematics. So if you think this game is great you are the minority. I know a lot of guys with SC2 on the DD but no way they launch it. 4 years ago they was all Dia, all SC2 maniacs. They have some argues to explain why they dont play anymore, but it seems nobody cares. So yeah sorry to disturb, that was i promise my last commentary on TL/ Blizzard thread. Gl gl for next game Player base won't grow much no matter how good Blizzard balance team is because the majority of players want semi-casual games à la Overwatch, LoL, Fortnite, or whatever latest trendy game. Wrong. You know the difference between those games and what's happened with SC2? I've said this for years...i still say it today. Those games get balance patches C O N S T A N T L Y. They get updates C O N S T A N T L Y. SC2 gets this patch that really messes up Terran late game, and it will receive no revert, and no patches now for months because it's the way blizzard patches their games. They release a patch and won't admit it was a mistake or wrong ever. What they do is, next patch, when they and people realize Terran lategame is screwed...they will complicate the problem further by randomly buffing/nerfing something else instead of reverting the original thing they screwed up. Look at LoL - they did a complete basically 100% Leblanc revert. They admitted they screwed up the champion, and did a full revert to her, sure it took a bit, but they did. But they constantly are making changes, patch changes that actually are impactful and change the meta and balance. Same for Fortnite. Constant game updates, whether to cosmetics or even adding new weapons into the game, and even removing weapons flat out from the game that are bad for the game. Case in point - the guided missile that was in the game for a few weeks, and then flat out removed because it was bad for the game. SC2 will take this balance patch, it will be horrendous for T lategame for the coming months, and then we'll get a balance post from blizzard months from now about how they think Terran might not be doing well lategame, and that they're keeping an eye on it. 3 months after that, they'll release another post saying - "we're going to make a change for Terran lategame since we may have taken too much power away from the raven. We're going to give BCS +10 HP as compensation." aka they'll make an irrelevant change that doesn't address the problem, and then that patch will STICK for the next months with the problem persisting in the game. That's why SC2 has come to this point that it is at nowadays. DEVELOPER EGO. They do not want to admit any fault when it comes to SC2, or a lack of knowledge of the game. I invite Blizzard to discuss mech / lategame balance with myself, and someone like me that has mega insight into long 20+ minute games can help them put meaningful changes into the game. I'd even challenge the guys running "the pylon" to have me on their show if they are brave enough to discuss these recent patch changes and what's currently wrong with SC2 - doubtful they will be brave enough to do that though, because no one wants to discuss actual reality when it comes to SC2. Players / streamers from LoL for example the streamer anniebot was contacted before by Riot when they wanted to re-balance/adjust annie. Blizzard should be doing the same thing in SC2 - get into contact with a player like myself that's used mass raven/mech for years, so that i can give them insight and offer them changes that won't break the game but will get mass raven out of the game while offering Terran lategame to not be an autoloss. I've reached out to them before, with ZERO ANSWER. If anyone wonders why i've been vocal and upset and it might seem like i shit talk the devs sometimes or am not tactful - it's because i've reached out already plenty of times with zero response, so they either do not care or do not value the opinion of someone who has expertise on units in the game like ravens or lategame scenarios. The truth of the matter is this most recent patch is just flat out terrible. There is no way to really sugar coat it, it's just a bad patch in many ways, including the map pool, but mostly because it nerfs 1/3 races lategame without touching the other two. How is it remotely fair to remove Terran's lategame while not touching the other two races? This makes no sense. The depressing thing is that regardless of balance, we'll all be stuck with this patch for the next however many months until we get a blizzard post saying they're looking into maybe possibly changing things, with no reverts on bad changes. Good thing that blizzard hasn't contacted you, haven't heard too many good things about balance from your side. If you guys want to shitpost on everything he says you should at least attempt to counter his arguments..the "well you're avilo.." argument is not really doing it for me. Marauder buff isnt going to impact the final condition late game comp that includes broodlords vipers infestors queens and mass static unless you count killing spores very slightly faster lol. The raven was the answer to zerg getting free air control which is what is required to get to this comp..nothing in this patch compensates for that. The viking hp is a literal nothing. This buff will impact tvz on a supppper narrow timing where ultras are first coming out before proper late game. To that point i can see blizz trying to prevent the super late games as they arent good to view..but this does create a problem..we have seen what happens every time the meta develops into kill x race before y timing...eventually x race figures out how to survive until after y and the imbalance gets out of control...not saying 100% thats going to happen..it can also end up the other way where x race simply cant..but based on what ive seen so far its looking like the former..the tvp implications are similar with an earlier and more intense impact imo.. time will tell By You realize that literally the entirety of HotS (except turtle mech, and I'm sure avilo loved that era) was based around Terran killing Protoss and Zerg before a certain time? Terran will be fine, and if not, more buffs will come. Also worth noting that Blizzard does listen to the pros. They specifically solicit feedback from GSL, and I distinctly remember Major saying he asked Blizzard for a Marauder revert way back near 4.0. It took them a few months, but here it is. I used to distrust the balance team, but my faith in them has only grown over the past year or so. Not saying that balance is or will be perfect, but their changes have definitely been trending in a positive direction. The fact that the balance team is clearly ignoring avilo, assuming they even noticed him at all, can only help that. Getting feedback from GSL players that basically are playing in their own little tournament eco system is absolutely HORRENDOUS for game balance. No one cares what 10 guys in GSL want for their personally balanced games that they play against solely each other in the tournament. GSL tournament play, or any other tournament is not equivalent to the overall balance of the game. Players are mega biased for their races in GSL and other stuff. Just because a player is a "progamer" doesn't mean they have a clue about game balance or game design. Most pros are notoriously terrible when it comes to judging game balance and design. The balance team isn't ignoring "avilo." They're ignoring objective late game scenarios that pop up incredibly often. Brood/viper/infestor/spores and carrier/high templar/tempest will remain exactly the same as the previous patch, but now Terran in this situation is massively weaker with no compensatory nerfs to P/Z or compensatory buffs (marauder/viking buffs do NOTHIGN in these late game energy unit situations). Is there anyone that has an argument on why Terran lategame just received a severe nerf without corresponding nerfs to the other two races? The only argument anyone can provide is "marauder/viking" will make T mid-game stronger, allowing you to "avoid lategame." That's the only argument that can be presented and it's based off the entire premise "kill them before they get there, and if you don't you lose the game now." How is that game balance acceptable for anyone that plays this game? People should literally be up in arms over the raven nerfs, because it's one of the worst changes to hit the game in a very long time, from an objective balance standpoint. I've been called a Terran Whiner™ here on TL, and more than once at that. It's good to know that, biased as I may be, I am still not in agreement with avilo. If that ever changes, then I will know I am truly lost. Lest I be accused of dismissing avilo solely because he is avilo, I'll elaborate: Technically speaking, within the confines of an arbitrary and artificial "lategame" boundary outlined in his post, avilo is correct. Terran lategame has been nerfed by this balance patch. Not that this is some groundbreaking revelation; Blizzard explicitly announced that much themselves: ...we feel good about continuing with our plans to reduce Anti-Armor Missile’s late-game strength and improve Terran‘s mid-game strength in the TvP matchup.This change decreases its late-game damage potential while minimally affecting utility in the mid-game...While we felt this change would have similar effects in the late-game, we thought this would be too much of a hit to its mid-game strength...We realize Terrans will take a hit to their late-game strength due to the Anti-Armor Missile change...As for TvP, we believe this change will improve Terran’s ability to apply more consistent pressure during the mid game. And most important of all: ...as we mentioned in the last community update, we’d like to focus more on how Terran’s mid-game power scales into the late-game, which will hopefully grant Terrans with more control over that transition.Blizzard is very literally spelling out its (perfectly sound) logic to avilo and anyone else that actually reads what they write instead of knee-jerk raging about nerfs to their own race and/or buffs to any other race. It's true that Terran lategame is now weaker than it used to be, and weaker than that of Protoss and Zerg. If every SC2 game started at the 20 minute mark, Terran would be in for a world of hurt. Fortunately, and either unknown or neglected by avilo and his ilk, the game starts about 20 minutes earlier. The lategame strength of Protoss and Zerg deathballs means jack shit if they have no workers, no bases, and no economy to support such a deathball. Or if they already gg'd out. Now some people will undoubtedly bitch about how this argument amounts to "kill them before they get there." And that's true to a certain extent, I'm saying more or less that Terran needs to kill Protoss and Zerg before they get there. The thing is, "kill them before they get there" is terrible advice–not to mention a disingenuous defense of imbalance–when Terran lacked the tools to actually, well, kill Protoss/Zerg before they got there. But now that Blizzard has kindly accommodated by buffing Terran midgame, "kill them before they get there" is a viable strategy (presuming that the midgame buffs work as intended, if not then Blizzard will buff Terran some more). Moreover, of all races to carry the burden of "kill them before they get there," Terran is undoubtedly the best. The nature of Terran is such that–when properly balanced–it has the largest number of aggressive options, the most mobile ground army (bio) and also the strongest ground army (mech). Furthermore, Terran simultaneously has the greatest ability to turtle, with siege lines, planetaries, sensor towers, and mules. Most of the time, Terran should be the one attacking, taking advantage of their greater offensive capability. When this state of affairs is reversed, with Terran mostly defending, we get the cancerous sort of turtling that drags the game on endlessly. It is metas in which Terran goes for a supreme lategame that inevitably encourage such cancerous turtling, as seen in the turtle mech era and more recently with 30-damage AAM. And the cherry on the cake is that the Raven wasn't changed for GSL. While GSL-level balance was of course a factor, it was games like Clem vs Guru that truly displayed the disgusting potential of a Raven-based meta. GSL-level players are too skilled to allow the game to degenerate to such a state, but at lower levels, well, just go and rewatch the game. If a race has stronger defense than offense, any rational player will very obviously chose to defend instead of attack. The very identity of Terran as a race revolves around its offensive capabilities and aggressive timings, while Protoss and Zerg assume the defensive role in PvT and ZvT. Handing Terran a superior defensive tool like 30-damage AAM removes the incentive to be aggressive. Since Protoss and Zerg were already defending, Terran also defends and voila, a game with no aggression, no engagements, no interest, and no entertainment. Refer to Clem vs Guru. TL;DR: AAM was breaking the identity of Terran. Now Terran has a weaker lategame and a stronger midgame. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
Im ok with this post. You are expressing your opinion which is different from his....thats exactly what should happen in these threads imo. This is a very important debate to have and for blizzard to consider(imo). Some people are very opposed to the idea that one race has to force the action all game and end it on a timer..it doesnt seem fair..if both players have similar apm and mechanics the one playing with defenders adv all game should have a clear adv. In contrast, all people (even avilo i dare say) know that having a matchup where both players have incentive to defend is horrible to watch and play. How do you create a meta where both races have incentive to harass / attack and expand anywhere from early game thru late game without it being a mirror? If we could figure that out i think you could achieve balance along with entertaining games where one race doesnt have a decisive adv in the late game..until then tho, i personally think the hydra and bane buffs will still make it too easy for zerg to get to their ultimate comp (which is, without the old raven, not counterable by a terran army) and we are going to see this happen in the near future.
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I'm really looking forward to seeing the game on a pro KR level with the patch and new maps...anything goes until we can get real evidence.
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On May 19 2018 08:46 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2018 08:13 Pentarp wrote:On May 19 2018 06:40 SHODAN wrote:On May 18 2018 23:45 Pentarp wrote:
lol@avilo. shit on bio terrans more.
terrans got a late-game buff (versus zergs) in the form of marauder-buff. marauders are also buffed mid-game versus protoss against upgraded (armor) zealots.
you get no sympathy from me. learn to be what you call a "bio-whore"
Marauders are now a late-game unit Requires fusion core, armory Concussive shells research time changed to 160 seconds Supply cost increased to 7 Damage and health stats remain unchanged I really have to question your knowledge of the game when you don't see how marauders being able to kill ultralisks affects late game in TvZ. I bet you also think that Terran is designed around "tiers" a la "AMG TIER 1 UNIT SHOULDNT KILL TIER 3 UNIT WAHHHHH". We have Zergs crying how their ultras are melting, and then we have people like you. Let's check the tech requirements for queens. According to you, queens require hive tech. Am I doing this right? golly gosh, you sure inferred a lot from not very much at all. if you want my opinions on late game TvZ, why don't you just ask me? lol
Looking at your first post:
What do you even mean with this post? It just looks like a sarcastic response because of a misinterpretation.
Why a fusion core requirement? How will that aid versus zealots?
You posted in a balance discussion. Of course someone will try to understand your intentions.
You saying that marauders requires fusion core is very much like saying "there are tiers". You can have a unit available in the earlier game that are used more in the late game, e.t. zealots and liberators. Even marauders are like that in TvP. Terrans are making mostly marines in the early stages but make more and more marauders as the game goes long.
I see perfectly clear how Pentarp could draw those conclusions.
Then you commented with an "if you want my opinions on late game TvZ, why don't you just ask me?"
Your initial comment should have answered this. That is how discussions work, you try to say what you mean. If your initial comment meant nothing, then it should never have been written.
SHODAN, do better! If you write, contribute.
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Korea (South)227 Posts
Ugh. Avilo strikes again.
I know we're supposed to respect every and all opinions, but its hard to try and take this guy seriously.
Maphack accusing anyone?
I hope he stops bitching to blizzard that mech isn't the god powerful comp it was in BW.
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Sure SC2 balancing is moving in circles and it wont go anywhere, ever.
But this is no new information. I think it had become obvious since some months after release of HOTS, I guess it was mid to end 2013.
These threads are still full of players who try to gain little edges and advantages for their own races mostly. And a few decent posts inbetween which by themselves are not able to pull it off.
Sc2 is not in the situation where it can be helped with small changes and instead several things would have to be changed at once as everything is connected. This patch is obviously trying to perform that kind of thing but it actually it is not even enough. But its getting harder to forecast results the more you change at once, due to networking effect.
At this point it is probably best to have a larger overhaul (large random factor) again and to hope that one wins the lottery, but they actually had to be way more courageous with adressing cores of issues than before.
Hence it might do the trick to parallel the development and have several teams compete with alternative designs/balances against each other internally. If we had like 3-4 teams doing 4 designs a year (one per quarter), it would be more likely to hit the jackpot earlier, support teams learning from each other, and can image different pictures and perceptions of the game to choose from in a faster pace.
The jackpot is what Anoss stated. To have a game that is not as much focused on mechanics as it currently is, which gives a bit more freedom to creativity of players. Add to that, that advantages over time should not scale in square but a bit more towards linearish (not fully obviously). Bring back early game. Damage per map size of units revision. Splash vs single target revision. Game pace revision. Mineral block/base saturation revision. etc.
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It's obvious by now, the balance team wants terran to all-in in an effort to create 'EXCITING!!!1111' games.
That's why this game is dying/dead.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Haha I didn't know there was a patch, and I kept doing my very specific builds that shunned marauders in certain situations, and made ravens if I couldn't kill em early enough. I checked for this solely because the builds were doing worse and I figured there had to be a patch.
I'm actually super happy about these changes for vP and vZ. Also I wonder if this makes it easier to break tank lines with full bio, and if full bio (or full bio + 1fac tank) is viable vs pure marine tank
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Interesting to see balance whine still going on. recently there really has been no reason to ask for changes besides mass raven play.
just wanted to throw it out there that all metrics before the balance patch showed the game pretty balanced.
winrates no more than 3% off of even.
gsl top 16 is 7/5/4 race distribution.
hell even EU and US challenger for Austin was 2/2/4 at ro8 with terrans in the finals.
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On May 20 2018 14:20 youngjiddle wrote:
winrates no more than 3% off of even.
What fantasy did that number come from? Even blizzard posted a different number in their community update. Protoss was favored quite a lot in TvP... Lets see how everything fares now after the patch had time to settle in.
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EPT
