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I'm sorry guys but the balance team does not get it.
A good RTS should be a game where you can outplay a opponent with a good micro and positioning, like a FPS player who can win a fight with a a bad weapon cause he has just a better aim than is opponent. But you can't here, cause if a player make 2 cyclone in TvT you cannot outplay him, if a Zerg make 7 queen you cannot outplay him, if a Protoss make 2 Imo, you cannot outplay him etc.
So now this game is all about "having the good meta build", and if you dont have it, even if you micro well you will die, this is not what a good RTS should be.
At the beginning of this game, on WOL, we had some great things, like when Bomber was holding 10 baneling with 15 marines well spreading behind a wall. With no stim, no baneling speed, only skill. That was a good RTS.
Now it's just a run, you can have some no skill unit like Cyclone at 2.30 min. Some T3 Unit like Ultralisk at 8.30 min... This is not the base of the RTS style Blizzard. Players should have times to build his basement, to choose his strategy, to feel the game.
You have produced a big mechanics game, but there is nothing to tell now when you cast a game, same opening ( was a time were CC first and 11 rax was a bit more exciting than now, or Forge Nexus/ Nexus first and not always the fast expo than now).
So now you can change the map, to have some game with more late game, but that will never affect the casual player. Cause when you are outside of this game, when you don't play since 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, this game look not fun. Nothing is easy and despit of what the majority of the players think, this is no more an intellectual game, its 90% mechanics 10% strategy. Yes you need to think to find some new build, but let's be honest, you all watch the GSL and copy paste. This is not what a strategic player should do, he should improve and think, not copy paste.
You can be a very good strategist, even if you have a Plat/Dia mechanic, you will never outplay a Master/GM player cause he will produce better than you. We all know mechanics must be a part of the game, but not some much guys.
So since you increase the worker from 6 to 12, you increase the mechanics requirement from 50% since the first minute of the game.. You increase the gas income, cause you have more worker to invest on it, so you decrease the timing where the T1 unit can be played and so now, in TvT, you cant produce marine cause you can have a Cyclone so easily with all this gas. You can't play gazless B2 full marines cause gas is so free now.
But you will never understand that. You will continue to make little change, and players who invest so much time on this game will, step by step, play others games, with time cause you missed the shot. A good game is easy to learn, hard to master. All the balance team should play Fortnite, you will understand what does it mean. All people can try this game for fun, and you will be addicted by the build, by the aim, by all the item. And if you want the ninja skill's you will need a ton's of hours. That's a game easy to learn hard to master, despite of how the Starcraft 2 community are judging Fortnite, it's not the point.
If you want Starcraft 2 a good game, consider Broodwar, at 8 min you don't have any T3 unit, at Broodwar you can fight with your zealot not upgraded and win a game with T1 unit fighting on 10 minutes. Same with marines, same with zergling, this is not a rush on T2 unit and mass 200. This is about strategy.
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary, i know it's a lost of time but this game is such a mess... that's make me really sad and mad to have this great work did on unit, on background, on graphics, but not a good balance team.. sad.
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On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary
Me neither. Think before you write.
Most of ur „arguments“ are pretty pointless and i don‘t even know why i continued reading your wall of text after the first couple of sentences.
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As a Terran, I think these changes are really good, though we'll have to see exactly how they play out and if they make Terran mid game vs Protoss too strong. I think current greedier Stalker into Collosus builds will probably be a lot harder to hold with, we might see a move back towards Stalker / Zealot builds or something similar (unless the mine buff completely killed these).
Versus Zerg the marauder buff will make basically no difference since ling / bane / hydra are all light units and the meta is very tank heavy compositions atm so transitions into Broods are far more common than transitions into Ultra. It will actually make marauders on 3/3 slightly worse vs 2/2 zerg. Viking buff wont make up for losing Raven but Raven was stupid and boring to play anyway.
The changes will also help bio vs mech quite a bit, which isn't super important but I think a nice little change a lot of Terran will like, it will be a lot easier to punish the 3/4 base turtle into mass air that is super frustrating to play vs.
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On May 17 2018 16:58 EXRNaRa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary Me neither. Think before you write. Most of ur „arguments“ are pretty pointless and i don‘t even know why i continued reading your wall of text after the first couple of sentences.
Sometimes you are in the wrong side of the wall, but you are still thinking that you think right. Despite of how you analyse my argue, this game is not growing up, and on this planet, if you are not growing up you are dying.
That's mean i'm right on one thing : All the people who are thinking like you, will leave the game soon, and start less playing, it's mathematics. So if you think this game is great you are the minority. I know a lot of guys with SC2 on the DD but no way they launch it. 4 years ago they was all Dia, all SC2 maniacs. They have some argues to explain why they dont play anymore, but it seems nobody cares.
So yeah sorry to disturb, that was i promise my last commentary on TL/ Blizzard thread. Gl gl for next game
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I also wish a master player could beat a GM with build order 
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France12904 Posts
On May 17 2018 17:16 Anoss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2018 16:58 EXRNaRa wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary Me neither. Think before you write. Most of ur „arguments“ are pretty pointless and i don‘t even know why i continued reading your wall of text after the first couple of sentences. Sometimes you are in the wrong side of the wall, but you are still thinking that you think right. Despite of how you analyse my argue, this game is not growing up, and on this planet, if you are not growing up you are dying. That's mean i'm right on one thing : All the people who are thinking like you, will leave the game soon, and start less playing, it's mathematics. So if you think this game is great you are the minority. I know a lot of guys with SC2 on the DD but no way they launch it. 4 years ago they was all Dia, all SC2 maniacs. They have some argues to explain why they dont play anymore, but it seems nobody cares. So yeah sorry to disturb, that was i promise my last commentary on TL/ Blizzard thread. Gl gl for next game
Player base won't grow much no matter how good Blizzard balance team is because the majority of players want semi-casual games à la Overwatch, LoL, Fortnite, or whatever latest trendy game.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 17 2018 18:40 Ej_ wrote:I also wish a master player could beat a GM with build order
I saw Parting in Masters defeating GM players. It may happen to you too! 
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On May 17 2018 18:40 Ej_ wrote:I also wish a master player could beat a GM with build order
That's pretty possible in best-of-1, I did it dozen of times when played zotac/go4sc2 back in days... well up to top100 of GM it's much easier to do and harder with top GM's, at some points it's not that complicated to execute a single all-in (or variations) build perfectly to win. But since you won with bshit strat or execution once, they might remember you for the next time and it would be harder to win again considering some difference in game level.
Although you have to be at least top Master/low GM in terms of ladder points to make it work.
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On May 17 2018 16:58 EXRNaRa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary Me neither. Think before you write. Most of ur „arguments“ are pretty pointless and i don‘t even know why i continued reading your wall of text after the first couple of sentences.
You can only look at his broken english or try to actually look at the content of his post without biased. There is a fair point being made to some extend. Starcraft has moved more and more towards just executing some meta build order and then trying to macro/micro better in the lategame. I just watched some old cast from 2011 and that was so different from what sc2 is like now. It seemed like there were more viable builds and that you could actually be more aggressive, and I think that ultimately made the game more strategic. I think that's the point of Anoss, and it's at least a fair preference to have.
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On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I'm sorry guys but the balance team does not get it.
A good RTS should be a game where you can outplay a opponent with a good micro and positioning, like a FPS player who can win a fight with a a bad weapon cause he has just a better aim than is opponent. But you can't here, cause if a player make 2 cyclone in TvT you cannot outplay him, if a Zerg make 7 queen you cannot outplay him, if a Protoss make 2 Imo, you cannot outplay him etc.
So now this game is all about "having the good meta build", and if you dont have it, even if you micro well you will die, this is not what a good RTS should be.
At the beginning of this game, on WOL, we had some great things, like when Bomber was holding 10 baneling with 15 marines well spreading behind a wall. With no stim, no baneling speed, only skill. That was a good RTS.
Now it's just a run, you can have some no skill unit like Cyclone at 2.30 min. Some T3 Unit like Ultralisk at 8.30 min... This is not the base of the RTS style Blizzard. Players should have times to build his basement, to choose his strategy, to feel the game.
You have produced a big mechanics game, but there is nothing to tell now when you cast a game, same opening ( was a time were CC first and 11 rax was a bit more exciting than now, or Forge Nexus/ Nexus first and not always the fast expo than now).
So now you can change the map, to have some game with more late game, but that will never affect the casual player. Cause when you are outside of this game, when you don't play since 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, this game look not fun. Nothing is easy and despit of what the majority of the players think, this is no more an intellectual game, its 90% mechanics 10% strategy. Yes you need to think to find some new build, but let's be honest, you all watch the GSL and copy paste. This is not what a strategic player should do, he should improve and think, not copy paste.
You can be a very good strategist, even if you have a Plat/Dia mechanic, you will never outplay a Master/GM player cause he will produce better than you. We all know mechanics must be a part of the game, but not some much guys.
So since you increase the worker from 6 to 12, you increase the mechanics requirement from 50% since the first minute of the game.. You increase the gas income, cause you have more worker to invest on it, so you decrease the timing where the T1 unit can be played and so now, in TvT, you cant produce marine cause you can have a Cyclone so easily with all this gas. You can't play gazless B2 full marines cause gas is so free now.
But you will never understand that. You will continue to make little change, and players who invest so much time on this game will, step by step, play others games, with time cause you missed the shot. A good game is easy to learn, hard to master. All the balance team should play Fortnite, you will understand what does it mean. All people can try this game for fun, and you will be addicted by the build, by the aim, by all the item. And if you want the ninja skill's you will need a ton's of hours. That's a game easy to learn hard to master, despite of how the Starcraft 2 community are judging Fortnite, it's not the point.
If you want Starcraft 2 a good game, consider Broodwar, at 8 min you don't have any T3 unit, at Broodwar you can fight with your zealot not upgraded and win a game with T1 unit fighting on 10 minutes. Same with marines, same with zergling, this is not a rush on T2 unit and mass 200. This is about strategy.
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary, i know it's a lost of time but this game is such a mess... that's make me really sad and mad to have this great work did on unit, on background, on graphics, but not a good balance team.. sad.
your rant makes no sense. there will always be "meta builds" as people figure out the upper limits of micro and how units can be used. making the game "more about strategy" literally just means allowing people to hide builds and deny scouting.
people say this stuff and it always just sounds like "im not mechanically good at this game therefore the game is bad, change the game so my favorite units are the best" or "make sc2 the same thing as brood war" (you even reference brood war in your post). sc2 is a great game man. i'm 4.2-4.4k MMR which most people consider "trash" and i still have fun and play any builds i want. it seems like you just want the game to change so you're better at it lol
On May 17 2018 19:04 Jerom wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2018 16:58 EXRNaRa wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I dont know what i still continu to write some commentary Me neither. Think before you write. Most of ur „arguments“ are pretty pointless and i don‘t even know why i continued reading your wall of text after the first couple of sentences. You can only look at his broken english or try to actually look at the content of his post without biased. There is a fair point being made to some extend. Starcraft has moved more and more towards just executing some meta build order and then trying to macro/micro better in the lategame. I just watched some old cast from 2011 and that was so different from what sc2 is like now. It seemed like there were more viable builds and that you could actually be more aggressive, and I think that ultimately made the game more strategic. I think that's the point of Anoss, and it's at least a fair preference to have.
the reason you think 2011 was more strategic is because they didn't have seven years of metagaming and pioneering micro tricks to base their gameplay on. you can't unravel history - once people know how the units function it will be practiced, pros will perfect it, and the rest of us will imitate them. changing that just means a merry go round of patches that upend how the game works, which will kill a playerbase who values their practiced ability at the game
the arguments here just aren't coherent. the first poster i quoted was saying the game is "all about build order" and you can't win by microing, which first of all is insanely untrue and secondly what is the difference between a "build" and a "strategy"? when you talk about strategy you're either talking about build order or you're talking about surprise tactics, which are universally hated in this game. no one liked being cannon rushed after forgetting to scout the natural - that's a strategy. no one liked being hit by a brutal 7gate after a denied overlord scout. these are strategies - brilliant ones, because they worked. and they were horrible for the game
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At least it's true that PvZ is less strategic than ever. Stargate vs proxy stargate opening and that's it.
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On May 17 2018 15:50 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2018 08:36 Pontius Pirate wrote:On May 16 2018 23:54 Caelum93 wrote:On May 16 2018 23:38 pieroog wrote:
wow! that's a lot of changes.... I wonder how the Ultralisk will perform with these kind of alterations You dont play Ultras Yeah, Ultras feel like hot garbage again against bio. I suspect they may need to up the max armor again to 8. Perhaps an increase to their base armor from 2 to 3 would be the best way to go about this. As long as the Marauder can mostly still counter Ultras, rather than just slightly counter Ultras, like in early LotV, then I don't find it too problematic that Marines return to hitting them with peashooters. I wouldn't go so far as to state that I'm not in favor of the Marauder being reverted to single-shot (for one, it just looks way better and easier to follow), but I think that this will necessitate some other things shifting to compensate. I'm glad that the meta isn't anymore Zerg sitting in their base doing nothing but turtling to ultras with terran being forced to allin every game. If the game turns out to be imbalanced they better should buff midgame units like Mutas or Banelings.
Mutas viable, the dream.....
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On May 17 2018 20:54 yangluphil wrote:
At least it's true that PvZ is less strategic than ever. Stargate vs proxy stargate opening and that's it.
??? not true. archon drop is a standard and semi aggressive opener that can play out into macro or allin. what openers do you want? straight robo? it's either robo, twilight or stargate. not every opener is good in every matchup. and more importantly, you will always have to have harassment potential against zerg as P or T, it's just how the matchup works. like, you can still try to immortal sentry allin on a small map, and it might work sometimes, but in lotv you can't afford heavy 2 base tech vs zerg unless it's going to force units or kill drones. glaives allin is still viable too but it's an allin, if they scout and defend then they deserve to win
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On May 17 2018 21:00 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2018 20:54 yangluphil wrote:
At least it's true that PvZ is less strategic than ever. Stargate vs proxy stargate opening and that's it. ??? not true. archon drop is a standard and semi aggressive opener that can play out into macro or allin.
which part of it is not true? The rest of your reply basically explains that it is true. You could open with robo/twilight vs zerg and transition into lategame without going allin back in the days.
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Arguing that Blizzard did not trade strategical depth for mechanical prowess, "wow" moments and abilities interactions is delusional. The entire "editorial line" of DK for HOTS and LOTV was "more intensity, more APM, more abilities micro, more multitask, less strategy, macro and planning".
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I do think only 10 life points more for vikings is not enough to compensate Ravens nerf.
Happy to see T could handle mass gates imos better and have a decent mid game
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On May 17 2018 22:06 bObA wrote:
I do think only 10 life points more for vikings is not enough to compensate Ravens nerf.
Yeah they still can not handle Carriers except if the Carrier count is really low and have no splash damage units supporting them.
But maybe it is better to nerf the Carriers directly since they are too strong in all matchups.
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This game, with all the rock-paper-scissor hard counters and exagggerated splash damage - will in my opinion never be fixed by any number of "balance" patches. I just don't enjoy playing it anymore.
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On May 17 2018 21:25 JackONeill wrote:
Arguing that Blizzard did not trade strategical depth for mechanical prowess, "wow" moments and abilities interactions is delusional. The entire "editorial line" of DK for HOTS and LOTV was "more intensity, more APM, more abilities micro, more multitask, less strategy, macro and planning".
Pls add the quote where DK said he wants less strategy, macro and planning.
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On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:
I'm sorry guys but the balance team does not get it.
...
I agree with the sentiment of your post. after playing sc2 for years, I took a little break to rediscover wc3. watching grubby's live stream inspired me to play again. during his commentaries he talks non-stop about strategy. there are so many variables and an insane about of depth to that game. just look at the titles of his youtube videos:
The Gambling Orc
Hide And Seek
Epic High Level Hero Game
Towers Beget Towers
To The Town Hall!
every game is its own story, with its own unique characters and plot twists. can you really say that pro sc2 games have their own story? their own personality?
compare that to a typical gsl match. artosis and tastosis bang out the same expositions every game. artosis sounds desperate to find something unusual to talk about. sc2 is pure tactics and mechanics, hardly any strategy.
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EPT
