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On May 21 2018 14:42 washikie wrote:
dont get why people keep saying the game is in an awfull state, are there some problems with ballance, yes, are there some problems with the way some matchups generaly play out (tvz always being either kill them before they get there or some kind of turtle fest, PvT being in a prity bad state where terran needs to do allins before protoss gets all there tools, PVZ being very volitile with lots of very powerful allins from both sides) But despite these problems the game is fairly balanced right now. I think that its in a much better state than periods where things have realy been out of whack (1-1-1 era, BL infestor era, Blink stalker allin, 3:00 oracle) Things are alright right now, not ideal but ok, when I load into a game in any matchup as any race I think I have at least a reasonable chance of winning that game, theres no sense of an inevitable loss like there were during periods of intense imbalance in the past. Things still certainly need to be tuned (imo especially tvp) but the game is moving in an alright direction.
It was not about winrates and racial balance.
1. Game allows almost no creativity and variation. The timers you are set on if you vary are too short, comebacks are hardly ever possible.
2. Unit interaction. While sudden DTs in broodwar were able to turn a game (at least I saw a pro match like 1-2 years ago by chance where that happened) in SC2 they discuss blink for DT, as the unit is more or less useless.
3. Broodwar had the game evolve and rock scissors paper somehow worked better. Lets look at PvT as an example. Protoss in broodwar can decide to either go air (carrier) or try and overpower the tank push with ground for a longer period of time before going for air (or not have to go for air as successful). But carriers are not that much of a game ender. In fact a terran who notices carrier switch early enough can overcome it and the game then usually evolves back into ground units after a solid trade off of units (due to lack of gas). Early advantages do not scale as much into later stages of the game and can be made up for. In SC2 when you see carrier you already know if you are able to still win a normal game at all or if you have to all-in quickly as your only chance.
4. Game pace. SC2 feels a bit like a minigame these days. Matches can end very quickly and frequently do so. Early game doesn't exist anymore, game starts at midgame and at 2-3 bases. Saturation of bases with inject, mules and chronoboost is almost instant and it is almost impossible to make a difference there for better players compared to lower players (both on relatively high level).
Etc.
I still see that gas is not a limiting rescource for terrans in many situations. That alone is a deal-breaker in a game where all races have equal access to resources and gas is defined to be the scarce one. Its corrupt design.
How do you balance a game where a player kills the refinery of a terran which makes the terran use the 3 SCVs that were working there instead work on minerals, that eventually gives him an advantage? ...lol
Zergs inability to attack off creep and other races inability to be efficient on creep induces passive gameplay and reduces options. It at least should be reviewed. I don't say the basic idea is bad, but it seems randomly implemented and brought on and on without revision.
Why doesn't zerg have a unit type that walks same speed on and off creep?
Why do other races not have upgrades for certain units that grants speed bonus for them on creep? Could be a fun thing for e.g. Terran mech units (kerrigan brought the tech for that, if lore is important for you).
Just those 2 questions above show very well how basic the implementation of creep actually is and what is possible.
Why there isn't a Zerg spell - used on own units - which gives creep speed bonus off-creep for like 45 seconds?
And so on.
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On May 22 2018 04:04 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 14:42 washikie wrote:
dont get why people keep saying the game is in an awfull state, are there some problems with ballance, yes, are there some problems with the way some matchups generaly play out (tvz always being either kill them before they get there or some kind of turtle fest, PvT being in a prity bad state where terran needs to do allins before protoss gets all there tools, PVZ being very volitile with lots of very powerful allins from both sides) But despite these problems the game is fairly balanced right now. I think that its in a much better state than periods where things have realy been out of whack (1-1-1 era, BL infestor era, Blink stalker allin, 3:00 oracle) Things are alright right now, not ideal but ok, when I load into a game in any matchup as any race I think I have at least a reasonable chance of winning that game, theres no sense of an inevitable loss like there were during periods of intense imbalance in the past. Things still certainly need to be tuned (imo especially tvp) but the game is moving in an alright direction.
It was not about winrates and racial balance. 1. Game allows almost no creativity and variation. The timers you are set on if you vary are too short, comebacks are hardly ever possible. 2. Unit interaction. While sudden DTs in broodwar were able to turn a game (at least I saw a pro match like 1-2 years ago by chance where that happened) in SC2 they discuss blink for DT, as the unit is more or less useless. 3. Broodwar had the game evolve and rock scissors paper somehow worked better. Lets look at PvT as an example. Protoss in broodwar can decide to either go air (carrier) or try and overpower the tank push with ground for a longer period of time before going for air (or not have to go for air as successful). But carriers are not that much of a game ender. In fact a terran who notices carrier switch early enough can overcome it and the game then usually evolves back into ground units after a solid trade off of units (due to lack of gas). Early advantages do not scale as much into later stages of the game and can be made up for. In SC2 when you see carrier you already know if you are able to still win a normal game at all or if you have to all-in quickly as your only chance. 4. Game pace. SC2 feels a bit like a minigame these days. Matches can end very quickly and frequently do so. Early game doesn't exist anymore, game starts at midgame and at 2-3 bases. Saturation of bases with inject, mules and chronoboost is almost instant and it is almost impossible to make a difference there for better players compared to lower players (both on relatively high level). Etc. I still see that gas is not a limiting rescource for terrans in many situations. That alone is a deal-breaker in a game where all races have equal access to resources and gas is defined to be the scarce one. Its corrupt design.How do you balance a game where a player kills the refinery of a terran which makes the terran use the 3 SCVs that were working there instead work on minerals, that eventually gives him an advantage? ...lol Zergs inability to attack off creep and other races inability to be efficient on creep induces passive gameplay and reduces options. It at least should be reviewed. I don't say the basic idea is bad, but it seems randomly implemented and brought on and on without revision. Why doesn't zerg have a unit type that walks same speed on and off creep? Why do other races not have upgrades for certain units that grants speed bonus for them on creep? Could be a fun thing for e.g. Terran mech units (kerrigan brought the tech for that, if lore is important for you). Just those 2 questions above show very well how basic the implementation of creep actually is and what is possible. Why there isn't a Zerg spell - used on own units - which gives creep speed bonus off-creep for like 45 seconds? And so on.
If that would happen and zerg could attack anytime during the game, people would demand nerfs again, just like they demanded nerfs for all lair units due to zerg being able to attack on previous patches.
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On May 22 2018 04:04 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 14:42 washikie wrote:
dont get why people keep saying the game is in an awfull state, are there some problems with ballance, yes, are there some problems with the way some matchups generaly play out (tvz always being either kill them before they get there or some kind of turtle fest, PvT being in a prity bad state where terran needs to do allins before protoss gets all there tools, PVZ being very volitile with lots of very powerful allins from both sides) But despite these problems the game is fairly balanced right now. I think that its in a much better state than periods where things have realy been out of whack (1-1-1 era, BL infestor era, Blink stalker allin, 3:00 oracle) Things are alright right now, not ideal but ok, when I load into a game in any matchup as any race I think I have at least a reasonable chance of winning that game, theres no sense of an inevitable loss like there were during periods of intense imbalance in the past. Things still certainly need to be tuned (imo especially tvp) but the game is moving in an alright direction.
It was not about winrates and racial balance. 1. Game allows almost no creativity and variation. The timers you are set on if you vary are too short, comebacks are hardly ever possible. 2. Unit interaction. While sudden DTs in broodwar were able to turn a game (at least I saw a pro match like 1-2 years ago by chance where that happened) in SC2 they discuss blink for DT, as the unit is more or less useless. 3. Broodwar had the game evolve and rock scissors paper somehow worked better. Lets look at PvT as an example. Protoss in broodwar can decide to either go air (carrier) or try and overpower the tank push with ground for a longer period of time before going for air (or not have to go for air as successful). But carriers are not that much of a game ender. In fact a terran who notices carrier switch early enough can overcome it and the game then usually evolves back into ground units after a solid trade off of units (due to lack of gas). Early advantages do not scale as much into later stages of the game and can be made up for. In SC2 when you see carrier you already know if you are able to still win a normal game at all or if you have to all-in quickly as your only chance. 4. Game pace. SC2 feels a bit like a minigame these days. Matches can end very quickly and frequently do so. Early game doesn't exist anymore, game starts at midgame and at 2-3 bases. Saturation of bases with inject, mules and chronoboost is almost instant and it is almost impossible to make a difference there for better players compared to lower players (both on relatively high level). Etc. I still see that gas is not a limiting rescource for terrans in many situations. That alone is a deal-breaker in a game where all races have equal access to resources and gas is defined to be the scarce one. Its corrupt design.How do you balance a game where a player kills the refinery of a terran which makes the terran use the 3 SCVs that were working there instead work on minerals, that eventually gives him an advantage? ...lol Zergs inability to attack off creep and other races inability to be efficient on creep induces passive gameplay and reduces options. It at least should be reviewed. I don't say the basic idea is bad, but it seems randomly implemented and brought on and on without revision. Why doesn't zerg have a unit type that walks same speed on and off creep? Why do other races not have upgrades for certain units that grants speed bonus for them on creep? Could be a fun thing for e.g. Terran mech units (kerrigan brought the tech for that, if lore is important for you). Just those 2 questions above show very well how basic the implementation of creep actually is and what is possible. Why there isn't a Zerg spell - used on own units - which gives creep speed bonus off-creep for like 45 seconds? And so on.
I agree that the lack of early game is a bit dull. But everything else you've written here is nonsense.
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I usually write nonsense!
E.g. I wrote about that the mine should become visible after having shot. Probably was complete nonsense to you back then.
If that would happen and zerg could attack anytime during the game, people would demand nerfs again, just like they demanded nerfs for all lair units due to zerg being able to attack on previous patches.
Are you refering to the game getting more creative and strategic instead of mostly mechanic?
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I still see that gas is not a limiting rescource for terrans in many situations. That alone is a deal-breaker in a game where all races have equal access to resources and gas is defined to be the scarce one. Its corrupt design.
This hasn't been true since patch 4.0 and the ghost cost change. Any higher-tech Terran army now includes some combination of Liberators, Tanks, Ghosts, and Ravens. It isn't uncommon to see Terrans using all their gas and floating a thousand+ minerals in the late game.
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1. I gave some kind of brainstorming, not any determined suggestion.
2. Idc if it is true not true. It was in the game and I bet it is still an issue. Even more now as the marauder has been promoted. Also just cause you can spend gas in endgame, it doesn mean gas is a limiting factor for terran power as much as it is for other races.
Hence, if you read carefully, I wrote:
"I still see that gas is not a limiting rescource for terrans in many situations"
Would you feel better if I changed that "many" into "some"?
As for other races "always a limiting factor of power" would have taken that place, it is still a factor to be considered and dealt with.
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How are ultras dealing with marauders? o_o
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On May 22 2018 07:19 LSN wrote:
1. I gave some kind of brainstorming, not any determined suggestion.
2. Idc if it is true not true. It was in the game and I bet it is still an issue. Even more now as the marauder has been promoted. Also just cause you can spend gas in endgame, it doesn mean gas is a limiting factor for terran power as much as it is for other races.
Hence, if you read carefully, I wrote:
"I still see that gas is not a limiting rescource for terrans in many situations"
Would you feel better if I changed that "many" into "some"?
As for other races "always a limiting factor of power" would have taken that place, it is still a factor to be considered and dealt with.
You're going to have to provide evidence that gas is "always" a limiting factor of power for other races. That's a pretty strong, and, IMO unsupportable, claim.
Edit: While you're at it, you should be more precise about what you mean by "gas is a limiting factor of power"--are you saying that spending gas allows you to build a more powerful composition, or are you making some sort of relative claim across races, i.e for a given level of power race x requires a lower ratio of gas to minerals than race y?
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Its ok, I have to do nothing.
I left my brainstorming for the right people to extract ideas from it (or not) and not interested in your little skirmishes about your beloved terran race being so UP and I did it so wrong with what I said.
User was warned for this post.
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On May 22 2018 07:54 LSN wrote:
Its ok, I have to do nothing.
I left my brainstorming for the right people to extract ideas from it (or not) and not interested in your little skirmishes about your beloved terran race being so UP and I did it so wrong with what I said.
I didn't mention balance at all in my post. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?
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On May 22 2018 07:05 LSN wrote:
I usually write nonsense!
E.g. I wrote about that the mine should become visible after having shot. Probably was complete nonsense to you back then.
I always agreed that mines should be visable after shooting. It's much better from a design perspective that way even if terran became underpowered shortly following that patch.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 21 2018 14:37 Thaniri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:So now you can change the map, to have some game with more late game, but that will never affect the casual player. Cause when you are outside of this game, when you don't play since 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, this game look not fun. Nothing is easy and despit of what the majority of the players think, this is no more an intellectual game, its 90% mechanics 10% strategy. Yes you need to think to find some new build, but let's be honest, you all watch the GSL and copy paste. This is not what a strategic player should do, he should improve and think, not copy paste. I played 2 games vs a Diamond level 3 player today in TvZ. I beat him with a reaper expand both times. Not a big timing attack with 2-2 bio. Or even a medivac with marines. I killed him with a single reaper that would consistently get more than 5 drone kills before the 3:30 speed timing and fluster him enough that he had no creep spread or macro. My MMR is 4800 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ5QnewXH5qatQBBUj8yAy6XglqSZrOsvBMaz7LlaN_Q44RnnDD26jhDD9b-1sxIq8ZaA9y6v-ut9wM/pubhtmlHis MMR was somewhere in the mid 3000's. According to this graph, he would have less than 1% chance of beating me. Roughly two "orders of magnitude" below me. Strategy would not matter. We even played a game where I went fast 3 base hellion banshee and he went 2 base muta. He could not have hard countered me more, and he still lost. Now here is the spooky thing. Serral has an MMR greater than 7000. I can wipe the floor with diamond players all day with a single reaper. I literally do not know the words to express how much better Serral would be than ME. In a simulation vs Serral, out of 1,000,000 games, I might expect to win ONCE. Where I'm 2 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. Serral is 6 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. The level of difference that can be measured is staggering. Now because of this, most people never get to play SC2 as a strategy game. You can almost always out-macro and out-micro your opponent into submission. But what happens when we get two people who are masters of the game? (Not masters league, those people suck at the game). If you watch a GSL ro4 match, there are mindgames, build order swaps, feints, multi pronged attacks, traps, everything that makes RTS a compelling genre. Just because you and I aren't good enough to play the game that way, doesn't mean that isn't the essence of the game. --- As to the part of your post that talks about BW. The phenomenon is compounded 50x there. Savior or Flash in their respective primes were so much better than everyone else that it strategy didn't matter. I'm not a broodwar history buff but IIRC Flash would literally constantly play the same strats on the same maps and no matter what his opponents wouldn't be able to stop it. --- Why this big rant post on some random balance update thing? I think this is true for anything. A michelin starred chef. Michael Jordan. Aleksandr Karelin. There are people who are such behemoths in their fields that mere men cannot compare. However that does not belittle the strategy element in, for example, greco-roman wrestling during Karelin's prime. Strategy still existed. It just so happened to be that Karelin was stronger, faster, and smarter than all of his opponents for almost 10 years straight. I'm not gonna google it but I think there was a point at which he won 6 world championships without having a point scored on him. Unfortunately my post has meandered since it is late in the night for me, but I hope I got my point across. Git gud son.
+ Show Spoiler +And this is the problem. If only top 100(and even that's questionable) of players can use the strategy, then we have a problem in a real time STRATEGY game. A huge problem. That's why people are leaving(and I am not saying this is the only reason, with my past experience I rather add this here), playing against someone who's a dumb player but he's so much mechanically advanced, that you don't have a chance - this isn't fun. I cannot count how many terrans won against me because they were just sending drop after drop until I finally crushed under the pressure(or their stutter stepping was so on point). But if I defended everything, they suddenly didn't know what to play. And believe me that such mechanically skilled players should be able to play TvP lategame on my level without balance whines, hell, if they understood the game I wouldn't be able to play against them(they would be leagues above me). But they weren't, they're whole "strategy" was to mechanically overwhelm the enemy. No strategy, no game sense, nothing. And while winning against such "beasts" feels good at the moment, these are not the games I remember.
And believe me I know how it looks from the other side, when I play my pathetic Terran(gold), I have no idea what to do. All I know about Terran - if I somehow survive cheeses and 2 base all-ins & I get into the late-game, I just build 30 marines at a time(on some maps even more), 10 medevacs at a time and I just stim a-move to victory. Sure, from time to time I meet a player who knows what a storm is, but generally speaking I win with the sheer power of my macro. The problem is - I have no idea how to play Terran. No. Clue. At. All. Ghosts? Nah, cannot stim bio ball. Marauders? Why? My mechanics are good enough to split on that level against banelings and I lose to storm anyway. Yeah, I build like 5 tanks so I don't have to worry about my home bases too much. If the enemy somehow builds one of the "dreaded" units(ultras/colossi) I just add liberators. Otherwise I just build marines and win. Is this a fair fight? It isn't. With my knowledge I should die to many of the players I'm facing but thanks to the game system I am not. And that's why I play Terran the least. I feel ashamed to play the race the way I play it. It's wrong, this is just wrong.
I put my rant into spoiler, but generally speaking I think the strategy portion should be bigger(imo 7(mechanics) : 3).
Git gud son doesn't help. It's offensive to many players, because you just admitted, that the player would have to get on a level of GSL RO4+ player. Think about that to let that sunk in. Even if we agree the strategy limit is around top 500 players(and we both know this number is much bigger than it's supposed to be), it's still not real to say to playrs git gud. They cannot get good to use strategy, there will be always someone so mechanically better that strategy won't matter.
We're talking about real time STRATEGY game where STRATEGY doesn't matter in most of the played games. (not streamed games, but played games)
Can this be fixed? I believe not(certainly not with balance patches).
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On May 22 2018 04:04 LSN wrote:
I still see that gas is not a limiting rescource for terrans in many situations. That alone is a deal-breaker in a game where all races have equal access to resources and gas is defined to be the scarce one. Its corrupt design.
Yeah sure, that's why there is no viable terran build order that's gazless. Because gaz isn't a limiting ressource, terran build orders all rely on gaz first/getting a lot of gaz fast to build those high gaz cost units to harass or survive the early game.
Makes sense.
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On May 22 2018 07:05 LSN wrote:I usually write nonsense! E.g. I wrote about that the mine should become visible after having shot. Probably was complete nonsense to you back then. Show nested quote +If that would happen and zerg could attack anytime during the game, people would demand nerfs again, just like they demanded nerfs for all lair units due to zerg being able to attack on previous patches. Are you refering to the game getting more creative and strategic instead of mostly mechanic?
Nerfing swarm hosts, infestors and hydras and buffing all counters to mutas made the game more creative? Maybe to other races, because as far as i know there's only one way to beat what your opponent is doing as Zerg.
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On May 22 2018 07:28 StarscreamG1 wrote:
How are ultras dealing with marauders? o_o
No good zerg player attack bio with pure ultras, so it's the same as before.
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On May 22 2018 10:02 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 14:37 Thaniri wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:So now you can change the map, to have some game with more late game, but that will never affect the casual player. Cause when you are outside of this game, when you don't play since 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, this game look not fun. Nothing is easy and despit of what the majority of the players think, this is no more an intellectual game, its 90% mechanics 10% strategy. Yes you need to think to find some new build, but let's be honest, you all watch the GSL and copy paste. This is not what a strategic player should do, he should improve and think, not copy paste. I played 2 games vs a Diamond level 3 player today in TvZ. I beat him with a reaper expand both times. Not a big timing attack with 2-2 bio. Or even a medivac with marines. I killed him with a single reaper that would consistently get more than 5 drone kills before the 3:30 speed timing and fluster him enough that he had no creep spread or macro. My MMR is 4800 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ5QnewXH5qatQBBUj8yAy6XglqSZrOsvBMaz7LlaN_Q44RnnDD26jhDD9b-1sxIq8ZaA9y6v-ut9wM/pubhtmlHis MMR was somewhere in the mid 3000's. According to this graph, he would have less than 1% chance of beating me. Roughly two "orders of magnitude" below me. Strategy would not matter. We even played a game where I went fast 3 base hellion banshee and he went 2 base muta. He could not have hard countered me more, and he still lost. Now here is the spooky thing. Serral has an MMR greater than 7000. I can wipe the floor with diamond players all day with a single reaper. I literally do not know the words to express how much better Serral would be than ME. In a simulation vs Serral, out of 1,000,000 games, I might expect to win ONCE. Where I'm 2 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. Serral is 6 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. The level of difference that can be measured is staggering. Now because of this, most people never get to play SC2 as a strategy game. You can almost always out-macro and out-micro your opponent into submission. But what happens when we get two people who are masters of the game? (Not masters league, those people suck at the game). If you watch a GSL ro4 match, there are mindgames, build order swaps, feints, multi pronged attacks, traps, everything that makes RTS a compelling genre. Just because you and I aren't good enough to play the game that way, doesn't mean that isn't the essence of the game. --- As to the part of your post that talks about BW. The phenomenon is compounded 50x there. Savior or Flash in their respective primes were so much better than everyone else that it strategy didn't matter. I'm not a broodwar history buff but IIRC Flash would literally constantly play the same strats on the same maps and no matter what his opponents wouldn't be able to stop it. --- Why this big rant post on some random balance update thing? I think this is true for anything. A michelin starred chef. Michael Jordan. Aleksandr Karelin. There are people who are such behemoths in their fields that mere men cannot compare. However that does not belittle the strategy element in, for example, greco-roman wrestling during Karelin's prime. Strategy still existed. It just so happened to be that Karelin was stronger, faster, and smarter than all of his opponents for almost 10 years straight. I'm not gonna google it but I think there was a point at which he won 6 world championships without having a point scored on him. Unfortunately my post has meandered since it is late in the night for me, but I hope I got my point across. Git gud son. + Show Spoiler +And this is the problem. If only top 100(and even that's questionable) of players can use the strategy, then we have a problem in a real time STRATEGY game. A huge problem. That's why people are leaving(and I am not saying this is the only reason, with my past experience I rather add this here), playing against someone who's a dumb player but he's so much mechanically advanced, that you don't have a chance - this isn't fun. I cannot count how many terrans won against me because they were just sending drop after drop until I finally crushed under the pressure(or their stutter stepping was so on point). But if I defended everything, they suddenly didn't know what to play. And believe me that such mechanically skilled players should be able to play TvP lategame on my level without balance whines, hell, if they understood the game I wouldn't be able to play against them(they would be leagues above me). But they weren't, they're whole "strategy" was to mechanically overwhelm the enemy. No strategy, no game sense, nothing. And while winning against such "beasts" feels good at the moment, these are not the games I remember.
And believe me I know how it looks from the other side, when I play my pathetic Terran(gold), I have no idea what to do. All I know about Terran - if I somehow survive cheeses and 2 base all-ins & I get into the late-game, I just build 30 marines at a time(on some maps even more), 10 medevacs at a time and I just stim a-move to victory. Sure, from time to time I meet a player who knows what a storm is, but generally speaking I win with the sheer power of my macro. The problem is - I have no idea how to play Terran. No. Clue. At. All. Ghosts? Nah, cannot stim bio ball. Marauders? Why? My mechanics are good enough to split on that level against banelings and I lose to storm anyway. Yeah, I build like 5 tanks so I don't have to worry about my home bases too much. If the enemy somehow builds one of the "dreaded" units(ultras/colossi) I just add liberators. Otherwise I just build marines and win. Is this a fair fight? It isn't. With my knowledge I should die to many of the players I'm facing but thanks to the game system I am not. And that's why I play Terran the least. I feel ashamed to play the race the way I play it. It's wrong, this is just wrong. I put my rant into spoiler, but generally speaking I think the strategy portion should be bigger(imo 7(mechanics) : 3). Git gud son doesn't help. It's offensive to many players, because you just admitted, that the player would have to get on a level of GSL RO4+ player. Think about that to let that sunk in. Even if we agree the strategy limit is around top 500 players(and we both know this number is much bigger than it's supposed to be), it's still not real to say to playrs git gud. They cannot get good to use strategy, there will be always someone so mechanically better that strategy won't matter. We're talking about real time STRATEGY game where STRATEGY doesn't matter in most of the played games. (not streamed games, but played games) Can this be fixed? I believe not(certainly not with balance patches).
But the thing is, in any game or sport with a large mechanical aspect, the stronger mechanical player will generally win. If I play against an NHL player, it doesn't matter what strategy I use, because I will lose.
However, when faced with someone just a bit better or on my skill level, I can use strategy to make up for my mechanical errors. Similarly, in SC2, two equal mechanically skilled players will be left to tactics a strategy. Except for builds that are harder to stop than to play, the one player will have to outthink the other player. So a two bronze players of equal mechanics will have such poor mechanics, that it will be down to strategic situations like...I know I can't stop drops, so I will over build static defence. Here, one player is compensating for a mechanical lacking through a strategic decision.
It's just that mechanics often determine your ability to execute a strategy, and so we see it at the highest level that their mechanics are so good it's primarily strategy and tactics that determine the outcome.
And the thing is, cheese does still exist, and much weaker players have often taken games off of people who should be better players.
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On May 22 2018 10:02 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 14:37 Thaniri wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:So now you can change the map, to have some game with more late game, but that will never affect the casual player. Cause when you are outside of this game, when you don't play since 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, this game look not fun. Nothing is easy and despit of what the majority of the players think, this is no more an intellectual game, its 90% mechanics 10% strategy. Yes you need to think to find some new build, but let's be honest, you all watch the GSL and copy paste. This is not what a strategic player should do, he should improve and think, not copy paste. I played 2 games vs a Diamond level 3 player today in TvZ. I beat him with a reaper expand both times. Not a big timing attack with 2-2 bio. Or even a medivac with marines. I killed him with a single reaper that would consistently get more than 5 drone kills before the 3:30 speed timing and fluster him enough that he had no creep spread or macro. My MMR is 4800 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ5QnewXH5qatQBBUj8yAy6XglqSZrOsvBMaz7LlaN_Q44RnnDD26jhDD9b-1sxIq8ZaA9y6v-ut9wM/pubhtmlHis MMR was somewhere in the mid 3000's. According to this graph, he would have less than 1% chance of beating me. Roughly two "orders of magnitude" below me. Strategy would not matter. We even played a game where I went fast 3 base hellion banshee and he went 2 base muta. He could not have hard countered me more, and he still lost. Now here is the spooky thing. Serral has an MMR greater than 7000. I can wipe the floor with diamond players all day with a single reaper. I literally do not know the words to express how much better Serral would be than ME. In a simulation vs Serral, out of 1,000,000 games, I might expect to win ONCE. Where I'm 2 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. Serral is 6 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. The level of difference that can be measured is staggering. Now because of this, most people never get to play SC2 as a strategy game. You can almost always out-macro and out-micro your opponent into submission. But what happens when we get two people who are masters of the game? (Not masters league, those people suck at the game). If you watch a GSL ro4 match, there are mindgames, build order swaps, feints, multi pronged attacks, traps, everything that makes RTS a compelling genre. Just because you and I aren't good enough to play the game that way, doesn't mean that isn't the essence of the game. --- As to the part of your post that talks about BW. The phenomenon is compounded 50x there. Savior or Flash in their respective primes were so much better than everyone else that it strategy didn't matter. I'm not a broodwar history buff but IIRC Flash would literally constantly play the same strats on the same maps and no matter what his opponents wouldn't be able to stop it. --- Why this big rant post on some random balance update thing? I think this is true for anything. A michelin starred chef. Michael Jordan. Aleksandr Karelin. There are people who are such behemoths in their fields that mere men cannot compare. However that does not belittle the strategy element in, for example, greco-roman wrestling during Karelin's prime. Strategy still existed. It just so happened to be that Karelin was stronger, faster, and smarter than all of his opponents for almost 10 years straight. I'm not gonna google it but I think there was a point at which he won 6 world championships without having a point scored on him. Unfortunately my post has meandered since it is late in the night for me, but I hope I got my point across. Git gud son. + Show Spoiler +And this is the problem. If only top 100(and even that's questionable) of players can use the strategy, then we have a problem in a real time STRATEGY game. A huge problem. That's why people are leaving(and I am not saying this is the only reason, with my past experience I rather add this here), playing against someone who's a dumb player but he's so much mechanically advanced, that you don't have a chance - this isn't fun. I cannot count how many terrans won against me because they were just sending drop after drop until I finally crushed under the pressure(or their stutter stepping was so on point). But if I defended everything, they suddenly didn't know what to play. And believe me that such mechanically skilled players should be able to play TvP lategame on my level without balance whines, hell, if they understood the game I wouldn't be able to play against them(they would be leagues above me). But they weren't, they're whole "strategy" was to mechanically overwhelm the enemy. No strategy, no game sense, nothing. And while winning against such "beasts" feels good at the moment, these are not the games I remember.
And believe me I know how it looks from the other side, when I play my pathetic Terran(gold), I have no idea what to do. All I know about Terran - if I somehow survive cheeses and 2 base all-ins & I get into the late-game, I just build 30 marines at a time(on some maps even more), 10 medevacs at a time and I just stim a-move to victory. Sure, from time to time I meet a player who knows what a storm is, but generally speaking I win with the sheer power of my macro. The problem is - I have no idea how to play Terran. No. Clue. At. All. Ghosts? Nah, cannot stim bio ball. Marauders? Why? My mechanics are good enough to split on that level against banelings and I lose to storm anyway. Yeah, I build like 5 tanks so I don't have to worry about my home bases too much. If the enemy somehow builds one of the "dreaded" units(ultras/colossi) I just add liberators. Otherwise I just build marines and win. Is this a fair fight? It isn't. With my knowledge I should die to many of the players I'm facing but thanks to the game system I am not. And that's why I play Terran the least. I feel ashamed to play the race the way I play it. It's wrong, this is just wrong. I put my rant into spoiler, but generally speaking I think the strategy portion should be bigger(imo 7(mechanics) : 3). Git gud son doesn't help. It's offensive to many players, because you just admitted, that the player would have to get on a level of GSL RO4+ player. Think about that to let that sunk in. Even if we agree the strategy limit is around top 500 players(and we both know this number is much bigger than it's supposed to be), it's still not real to say to playrs git gud. They cannot get good to use strategy, there will be always someone so mechanically better that strategy won't matter. We're talking about real time STRATEGY game where STRATEGY doesn't matter in most of the played games. (not streamed games, but played games) Can this be fixed? I believe not(certainly not with balance patches).
I mean Starcraft has always been about mechanics more than stratagey sure stratagey plays a role but if my opponent micros perfectly and has 1.5 times as much stuff as I do chances are he's gonna win. It's just the nature of the game if your looking for games where stratagey is the deciding factor go play a tbs or a card game. Sc2 is first and foremost a game of mechanics with some stratagey layered ontop.
I'm not sure having stratagey more than mechanics would nesisarily be a good thing. Take for example PVP. PvP is mostly decided by stratagey and not mechanics unlike the other matchups due to the deadlyness of allins in the mu and the fact that's at least in the early game of PvP both macro and micro tend to be trivial prior to the moment when players builds start giving them different sets of units. PvP can e fun but for most people it's considered one of the worst mu probably only zvz is considered to be less fun. Why? Because PvP is so dictated by stratagey that it feals coinflippy and poker like, it's low emphasis on mechanics makes the mu frustrating at times to play and not particularly exciting to watch.
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On May 22 2018 14:38 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2018 10:02 deacon.frost wrote:On May 21 2018 14:37 Thaniri wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:So now you can change the map, to have some game with more late game, but that will never affect the casual player. Cause when you are outside of this game, when you don't play since 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, this game look not fun. Nothing is easy and despit of what the majority of the players think, this is no more an intellectual game, its 90% mechanics 10% strategy. Yes you need to think to find some new build, but let's be honest, you all watch the GSL and copy paste. This is not what a strategic player should do, he should improve and think, not copy paste. I played 2 games vs a Diamond level 3 player today in TvZ. I beat him with a reaper expand both times. Not a big timing attack with 2-2 bio. Or even a medivac with marines. I killed him with a single reaper that would consistently get more than 5 drone kills before the 3:30 speed timing and fluster him enough that he had no creep spread or macro. My MMR is 4800 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ5QnewXH5qatQBBUj8yAy6XglqSZrOsvBMaz7LlaN_Q44RnnDD26jhDD9b-1sxIq8ZaA9y6v-ut9wM/pubhtmlHis MMR was somewhere in the mid 3000's. According to this graph, he would have less than 1% chance of beating me. Roughly two "orders of magnitude" below me. Strategy would not matter. We even played a game where I went fast 3 base hellion banshee and he went 2 base muta. He could not have hard countered me more, and he still lost. Now here is the spooky thing. Serral has an MMR greater than 7000. I can wipe the floor with diamond players all day with a single reaper. I literally do not know the words to express how much better Serral would be than ME. In a simulation vs Serral, out of 1,000,000 games, I might expect to win ONCE. Where I'm 2 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. Serral is 6 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. The level of difference that can be measured is staggering. Now because of this, most people never get to play SC2 as a strategy game. You can almost always out-macro and out-micro your opponent into submission. But what happens when we get two people who are masters of the game? (Not masters league, those people suck at the game). If you watch a GSL ro4 match, there are mindgames, build order swaps, feints, multi pronged attacks, traps, everything that makes RTS a compelling genre. Just because you and I aren't good enough to play the game that way, doesn't mean that isn't the essence of the game. --- As to the part of your post that talks about BW. The phenomenon is compounded 50x there. Savior or Flash in their respective primes were so much better than everyone else that it strategy didn't matter. I'm not a broodwar history buff but IIRC Flash would literally constantly play the same strats on the same maps and no matter what his opponents wouldn't be able to stop it. --- Why this big rant post on some random balance update thing? I think this is true for anything. A michelin starred chef. Michael Jordan. Aleksandr Karelin. There are people who are such behemoths in their fields that mere men cannot compare. However that does not belittle the strategy element in, for example, greco-roman wrestling during Karelin's prime. Strategy still existed. It just so happened to be that Karelin was stronger, faster, and smarter than all of his opponents for almost 10 years straight. I'm not gonna google it but I think there was a point at which he won 6 world championships without having a point scored on him. Unfortunately my post has meandered since it is late in the night for me, but I hope I got my point across. Git gud son. + Show Spoiler +And this is the problem. If only top 100(and even that's questionable) of players can use the strategy, then we have a problem in a real time STRATEGY game. A huge problem. That's why people are leaving(and I am not saying this is the only reason, with my past experience I rather add this here), playing against someone who's a dumb player but he's so much mechanically advanced, that you don't have a chance - this isn't fun. I cannot count how many terrans won against me because they were just sending drop after drop until I finally crushed under the pressure(or their stutter stepping was so on point). But if I defended everything, they suddenly didn't know what to play. And believe me that such mechanically skilled players should be able to play TvP lategame on my level without balance whines, hell, if they understood the game I wouldn't be able to play against them(they would be leagues above me). But they weren't, they're whole "strategy" was to mechanically overwhelm the enemy. No strategy, no game sense, nothing. And while winning against such "beasts" feels good at the moment, these are not the games I remember.
And believe me I know how it looks from the other side, when I play my pathetic Terran(gold), I have no idea what to do. All I know about Terran - if I somehow survive cheeses and 2 base all-ins & I get into the late-game, I just build 30 marines at a time(on some maps even more), 10 medevacs at a time and I just stim a-move to victory. Sure, from time to time I meet a player who knows what a storm is, but generally speaking I win with the sheer power of my macro. The problem is - I have no idea how to play Terran. No. Clue. At. All. Ghosts? Nah, cannot stim bio ball. Marauders? Why? My mechanics are good enough to split on that level against banelings and I lose to storm anyway. Yeah, I build like 5 tanks so I don't have to worry about my home bases too much. If the enemy somehow builds one of the "dreaded" units(ultras/colossi) I just add liberators. Otherwise I just build marines and win. Is this a fair fight? It isn't. With my knowledge I should die to many of the players I'm facing but thanks to the game system I am not. And that's why I play Terran the least. I feel ashamed to play the race the way I play it. It's wrong, this is just wrong. I put my rant into spoiler, but generally speaking I think the strategy portion should be bigger(imo 7(mechanics) : 3). Git gud son doesn't help. It's offensive to many players, because you just admitted, that the player would have to get on a level of GSL RO4+ player. Think about that to let that sunk in. Even if we agree the strategy limit is around top 500 players(and we both know this number is much bigger than it's supposed to be), it's still not real to say to playrs git gud. They cannot get good to use strategy, there will be always someone so mechanically better that strategy won't matter. We're talking about real time STRATEGY game where STRATEGY doesn't matter in most of the played games. (not streamed games, but played games) Can this be fixed? I believe not(certainly not with balance patches). I mean Starcraft has always been about mechanics more than stratagey sure stratagey plays a role but if my opponent micros perfectly and has 1.5 times as much stuff as I do chances are he's gonna win. It's just the nature of the game if your looking for games where stratagey is the deciding factor go play a tbs or a card game. Sc2 is first and foremost a game of mechanics with some stratagey layered ontop. I'm not sure having stratagey more than mechanics would nesisarily be a good thing. Take for example PVP. PvP is mostly decided by stratagey and not mechanics unlike the other matchups due to the deadlyness of allins in the mu and the fact that's at least in the early game of PvP both macro and micro tend to be trivial prior to the moment when players builds start giving them different sets of units. PvP can e fun but for most people it's considered one of the worst mu probably only zvz is considered to be less fun. Why? Because PvP is so dictated by stratagey that it feals coinflippy and poker like, it's low emphasis on mechanics makes the mu frustrating at times to play and not particularly exciting to watch.
Well i disagree, while you need a minimal mecanism to enter some leagues, the difference between players is not really mecanism.
Knowledge is far more important, and knowing what you should do to stay ahead or identify if you're behind and need to do something.
And maybe you know PvP, but all MU are decided by strategy.
It's coin-flip when you decide not to scout or prepare for some strategy, and play creedy.
In ZvZ, i drone scout, my first worker is rallied directly to the natural of my opponent, and it will arrive in time on most map to block hatch first for a few seconds, or i will knows he is pool first, or all-in me.
Most pro never do that, and they prefer to identify the build with the timing of the lings and with overlord, and defend with their first lings + workers, it may work but if lings dodge overlord, or the build is slightly changed to look like a normal build you may die.
It's a choice, a strategy, i consider it's more likely i lose on a cheese at my level than because of the few mineral i've lost because i've scouted, and somehow i recover for this mineral lost because i block his hatch, or even if i don't i know he is macroing so i can full drone for a moment because i know what is doing.
At pro level, all pros know each other and prepare for strats based on the usual playstyle of some player, they rarely won because of "micro" or better mecanism, they all have nearly the same mecanism.
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On May 22 2018 10:02 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 14:37 Thaniri wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:So now you can change the map, to have some game with more late game, but that will never affect the casual player. Cause when you are outside of this game, when you don't play since 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, this game look not fun. Nothing is easy and despit of what the majority of the players think, this is no more an intellectual game, its 90% mechanics 10% strategy. Yes you need to think to find some new build, but let's be honest, you all watch the GSL and copy paste. This is not what a strategic player should do, he should improve and think, not copy paste. I played 2 games vs a Diamond level 3 player today in TvZ. I beat him with a reaper expand both times. Not a big timing attack with 2-2 bio. Or even a medivac with marines. I killed him with a single reaper that would consistently get more than 5 drone kills before the 3:30 speed timing and fluster him enough that he had no creep spread or macro. My MMR is 4800 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ5QnewXH5qatQBBUj8yAy6XglqSZrOsvBMaz7LlaN_Q44RnnDD26jhDD9b-1sxIq8ZaA9y6v-ut9wM/pubhtmlHis MMR was somewhere in the mid 3000's. According to this graph, he would have less than 1% chance of beating me. Roughly two "orders of magnitude" below me. Strategy would not matter. We even played a game where I went fast 3 base hellion banshee and he went 2 base muta. He could not have hard countered me more, and he still lost. Now here is the spooky thing. Serral has an MMR greater than 7000. I can wipe the floor with diamond players all day with a single reaper. I literally do not know the words to express how much better Serral would be than ME. In a simulation vs Serral, out of 1,000,000 games, I might expect to win ONCE. Where I'm 2 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. Serral is 6 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. The level of difference that can be measured is staggering. Now because of this, most people never get to play SC2 as a strategy game. You can almost always out-macro and out-micro your opponent into submission. But what happens when we get two people who are masters of the game? (Not masters league, those people suck at the game). If you watch a GSL ro4 match, there are mindgames, build order swaps, feints, multi pronged attacks, traps, everything that makes RTS a compelling genre. Just because you and I aren't good enough to play the game that way, doesn't mean that isn't the essence of the game. --- As to the part of your post that talks about BW. The phenomenon is compounded 50x there. Savior or Flash in their respective primes were so much better than everyone else that it strategy didn't matter. I'm not a broodwar history buff but IIRC Flash would literally constantly play the same strats on the same maps and no matter what his opponents wouldn't be able to stop it. --- Why this big rant post on some random balance update thing? I think this is true for anything. A michelin starred chef. Michael Jordan. Aleksandr Karelin. There are people who are such behemoths in their fields that mere men cannot compare. However that does not belittle the strategy element in, for example, greco-roman wrestling during Karelin's prime. Strategy still existed. It just so happened to be that Karelin was stronger, faster, and smarter than all of his opponents for almost 10 years straight. I'm not gonna google it but I think there was a point at which he won 6 world championships without having a point scored on him. Unfortunately my post has meandered since it is late in the night for me, but I hope I got my point across. Git gud son. + Show Spoiler +And this is the problem. If only top 100(and even that's questionable) of players can use the strategy, then we have a problem in a real time STRATEGY game. A huge problem. That's why people are leaving(and I am not saying this is the only reason, with my past experience I rather add this here), playing against someone who's a dumb player but he's so much mechanically advanced, that you don't have a chance - this isn't fun. I cannot count how many terrans won against me because they were just sending drop after drop until I finally crushed under the pressure(or their stutter stepping was so on point). But if I defended everything, they suddenly didn't know what to play. And believe me that such mechanically skilled players should be able to play TvP lategame on my level without balance whines, hell, if they understood the game I wouldn't be able to play against them(they would be leagues above me). But they weren't, they're whole "strategy" was to mechanically overwhelm the enemy. No strategy, no game sense, nothing. And while winning against such "beasts" feels good at the moment, these are not the games I remember.
And believe me I know how it looks from the other side, when I play my pathetic Terran(gold), I have no idea what to do. All I know about Terran - if I somehow survive cheeses and 2 base all-ins & I get into the late-game, I just build 30 marines at a time(on some maps even more), 10 medevacs at a time and I just stim a-move to victory. Sure, from time to time I meet a player who knows what a storm is, but generally speaking I win with the sheer power of my macro. The problem is - I have no idea how to play Terran. No. Clue. At. All. Ghosts? Nah, cannot stim bio ball. Marauders? Why? My mechanics are good enough to split on that level against banelings and I lose to storm anyway. Yeah, I build like 5 tanks so I don't have to worry about my home bases too much. If the enemy somehow builds one of the "dreaded" units(ultras/colossi) I just add liberators. Otherwise I just build marines and win. Is this a fair fight? It isn't. With my knowledge I should die to many of the players I'm facing but thanks to the game system I am not. And that's why I play Terran the least. I feel ashamed to play the race the way I play it. It's wrong, this is just wrong. I put my rant into spoiler, but generally speaking I think the strategy portion should be bigger(imo 7(mechanics) : 3). Git gud son doesn't help. It's offensive to many players, because you just admitted, that the player would have to get on a level of GSL RO4+ player. Think about that to let that sunk in. Even if we agree the strategy limit is around top 500 players(and we both know this number is much bigger than it's supposed to be), it's still not real to say to playrs git gud. They cannot get good to use strategy, there will be always someone so mechanically better that strategy won't matter. We're talking about real time STRATEGY game where STRATEGY doesn't matter in most of the played games. (not streamed games, but played games) Can this be fixed? I believe not(certainly not with balance patches).
Maybe you shouldn't play a game like starcraft because it is mechanically difficult?
go play Warhammer 40,000 or chess or something lol.
maybe some other rts made by stardock games if you want some easy strategy wins. The thing is the skill caps on those games are nothing compared to mechanically difficult games.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 23 2018 00:15 aish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2018 10:02 deacon.frost wrote:On May 21 2018 14:37 Thaniri wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:So now you can change the map, to have some game with more late game, but that will never affect the casual player. Cause when you are outside of this game, when you don't play since 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, this game look not fun. Nothing is easy and despit of what the majority of the players think, this is no more an intellectual game, its 90% mechanics 10% strategy. Yes you need to think to find some new build, but let's be honest, you all watch the GSL and copy paste. This is not what a strategic player should do, he should improve and think, not copy paste. I played 2 games vs a Diamond level 3 player today in TvZ. I beat him with a reaper expand both times. Not a big timing attack with 2-2 bio. Or even a medivac with marines. I killed him with a single reaper that would consistently get more than 5 drone kills before the 3:30 speed timing and fluster him enough that he had no creep spread or macro. My MMR is 4800 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ5QnewXH5qatQBBUj8yAy6XglqSZrOsvBMaz7LlaN_Q44RnnDD26jhDD9b-1sxIq8ZaA9y6v-ut9wM/pubhtmlHis MMR was somewhere in the mid 3000's. According to this graph, he would have less than 1% chance of beating me. Roughly two "orders of magnitude" below me. Strategy would not matter. We even played a game where I went fast 3 base hellion banshee and he went 2 base muta. He could not have hard countered me more, and he still lost. Now here is the spooky thing. Serral has an MMR greater than 7000. I can wipe the floor with diamond players all day with a single reaper. I literally do not know the words to express how much better Serral would be than ME. In a simulation vs Serral, out of 1,000,000 games, I might expect to win ONCE. Where I'm 2 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. Serral is 6 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. The level of difference that can be measured is staggering. Now because of this, most people never get to play SC2 as a strategy game. You can almost always out-macro and out-micro your opponent into submission. But what happens when we get two people who are masters of the game? (Not masters league, those people suck at the game). If you watch a GSL ro4 match, there are mindgames, build order swaps, feints, multi pronged attacks, traps, everything that makes RTS a compelling genre. Just because you and I aren't good enough to play the game that way, doesn't mean that isn't the essence of the game. --- As to the part of your post that talks about BW. The phenomenon is compounded 50x there. Savior or Flash in their respective primes were so much better than everyone else that it strategy didn't matter. I'm not a broodwar history buff but IIRC Flash would literally constantly play the same strats on the same maps and no matter what his opponents wouldn't be able to stop it. --- Why this big rant post on some random balance update thing? I think this is true for anything. A michelin starred chef. Michael Jordan. Aleksandr Karelin. There are people who are such behemoths in their fields that mere men cannot compare. However that does not belittle the strategy element in, for example, greco-roman wrestling during Karelin's prime. Strategy still existed. It just so happened to be that Karelin was stronger, faster, and smarter than all of his opponents for almost 10 years straight. I'm not gonna google it but I think there was a point at which he won 6 world championships without having a point scored on him. Unfortunately my post has meandered since it is late in the night for me, but I hope I got my point across. Git gud son. + Show Spoiler +And this is the problem. If only top 100(and even that's questionable) of players can use the strategy, then we have a problem in a real time STRATEGY game. A huge problem. That's why people are leaving(and I am not saying this is the only reason, with my past experience I rather add this here), playing against someone who's a dumb player but he's so much mechanically advanced, that you don't have a chance - this isn't fun. I cannot count how many terrans won against me because they were just sending drop after drop until I finally crushed under the pressure(or their stutter stepping was so on point). But if I defended everything, they suddenly didn't know what to play. And believe me that such mechanically skilled players should be able to play TvP lategame on my level without balance whines, hell, if they understood the game I wouldn't be able to play against them(they would be leagues above me). But they weren't, they're whole "strategy" was to mechanically overwhelm the enemy. No strategy, no game sense, nothing. And while winning against such "beasts" feels good at the moment, these are not the games I remember.
And believe me I know how it looks from the other side, when I play my pathetic Terran(gold), I have no idea what to do. All I know about Terran - if I somehow survive cheeses and 2 base all-ins & I get into the late-game, I just build 30 marines at a time(on some maps even more), 10 medevacs at a time and I just stim a-move to victory. Sure, from time to time I meet a player who knows what a storm is, but generally speaking I win with the sheer power of my macro. The problem is - I have no idea how to play Terran. No. Clue. At. All. Ghosts? Nah, cannot stim bio ball. Marauders? Why? My mechanics are good enough to split on that level against banelings and I lose to storm anyway. Yeah, I build like 5 tanks so I don't have to worry about my home bases too much. If the enemy somehow builds one of the "dreaded" units(ultras/colossi) I just add liberators. Otherwise I just build marines and win. Is this a fair fight? It isn't. With my knowledge I should die to many of the players I'm facing but thanks to the game system I am not. And that's why I play Terran the least. I feel ashamed to play the race the way I play it. It's wrong, this is just wrong. I put my rant into spoiler, but generally speaking I think the strategy portion should be bigger(imo 7(mechanics) : 3). Git gud son doesn't help. It's offensive to many players, because you just admitted, that the player would have to get on a level of GSL RO4+ player. Think about that to let that sunk in. Even if we agree the strategy limit is around top 500 players(and we both know this number is much bigger than it's supposed to be), it's still not real to say to playrs git gud. They cannot get good to use strategy, there will be always someone so mechanically better that strategy won't matter. We're talking about real time STRATEGY game where STRATEGY doesn't matter in most of the played games. (not streamed games, but played games) Can this be fixed? I believe not(certainly not with balance patches). Maybe you shouldn't play a game like starcraft because it is mechanically difficult? go play Warhammer 40,000 or chess or something lol. maybe some other rts made by stardock games if you want some easy strategy wins. The thing is the skill caps on those games are nothing compared to mechanically difficult games.
Yes,. this helps the population...
On May 22 2018 14:38 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2018 10:02 deacon.frost wrote:On May 21 2018 14:37 Thaniri wrote:On May 17 2018 16:48 Anoss wrote:So now you can change the map, to have some game with more late game, but that will never affect the casual player. Cause when you are outside of this game, when you don't play since 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, this game look not fun. Nothing is easy and despit of what the majority of the players think, this is no more an intellectual game, its 90% mechanics 10% strategy. Yes you need to think to find some new build, but let's be honest, you all watch the GSL and copy paste. This is not what a strategic player should do, he should improve and think, not copy paste. I played 2 games vs a Diamond level 3 player today in TvZ. I beat him with a reaper expand both times. Not a big timing attack with 2-2 bio. Or even a medivac with marines. I killed him with a single reaper that would consistently get more than 5 drone kills before the 3:30 speed timing and fluster him enough that he had no creep spread or macro. My MMR is 4800 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ5QnewXH5qatQBBUj8yAy6XglqSZrOsvBMaz7LlaN_Q44RnnDD26jhDD9b-1sxIq8ZaA9y6v-ut9wM/pubhtmlHis MMR was somewhere in the mid 3000's. According to this graph, he would have less than 1% chance of beating me. Roughly two "orders of magnitude" below me. Strategy would not matter. We even played a game where I went fast 3 base hellion banshee and he went 2 base muta. He could not have hard countered me more, and he still lost. Now here is the spooky thing. Serral has an MMR greater than 7000. I can wipe the floor with diamond players all day with a single reaper. I literally do not know the words to express how much better Serral would be than ME. In a simulation vs Serral, out of 1,000,000 games, I might expect to win ONCE. Where I'm 2 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. Serral is 6 orders of magnitude above a diamond player. The level of difference that can be measured is staggering. Now because of this, most people never get to play SC2 as a strategy game. You can almost always out-macro and out-micro your opponent into submission. But what happens when we get two people who are masters of the game? (Not masters league, those people suck at the game). If you watch a GSL ro4 match, there are mindgames, build order swaps, feints, multi pronged attacks, traps, everything that makes RTS a compelling genre. Just because you and I aren't good enough to play the game that way, doesn't mean that isn't the essence of the game. --- As to the part of your post that talks about BW. The phenomenon is compounded 50x there. Savior or Flash in their respective primes were so much better than everyone else that it strategy didn't matter. I'm not a broodwar history buff but IIRC Flash would literally constantly play the same strats on the same maps and no matter what his opponents wouldn't be able to stop it. --- Why this big rant post on some random balance update thing? I think this is true for anything. A michelin starred chef. Michael Jordan. Aleksandr Karelin. There are people who are such behemoths in their fields that mere men cannot compare. However that does not belittle the strategy element in, for example, greco-roman wrestling during Karelin's prime. Strategy still existed. It just so happened to be that Karelin was stronger, faster, and smarter than all of his opponents for almost 10 years straight. I'm not gonna google it but I think there was a point at which he won 6 world championships without having a point scored on him. Unfortunately my post has meandered since it is late in the night for me, but I hope I got my point across. Git gud son. + Show Spoiler +And this is the problem. If only top 100(and even that's questionable) of players can use the strategy, then we have a problem in a real time STRATEGY game. A huge problem. That's why people are leaving(and I am not saying this is the only reason, with my past experience I rather add this here), playing against someone who's a dumb player but he's so much mechanically advanced, that you don't have a chance - this isn't fun. I cannot count how many terrans won against me because they were just sending drop after drop until I finally crushed under the pressure(or their stutter stepping was so on point). But if I defended everything, they suddenly didn't know what to play. And believe me that such mechanically skilled players should be able to play TvP lategame on my level without balance whines, hell, if they understood the game I wouldn't be able to play against them(they would be leagues above me). But they weren't, they're whole "strategy" was to mechanically overwhelm the enemy. No strategy, no game sense, nothing. And while winning against such "beasts" feels good at the moment, these are not the games I remember.
And believe me I know how it looks from the other side, when I play my pathetic Terran(gold), I have no idea what to do. All I know about Terran - if I somehow survive cheeses and 2 base all-ins & I get into the late-game, I just build 30 marines at a time(on some maps even more), 10 medevacs at a time and I just stim a-move to victory. Sure, from time to time I meet a player who knows what a storm is, but generally speaking I win with the sheer power of my macro. The problem is - I have no idea how to play Terran. No. Clue. At. All. Ghosts? Nah, cannot stim bio ball. Marauders? Why? My mechanics are good enough to split on that level against banelings and I lose to storm anyway. Yeah, I build like 5 tanks so I don't have to worry about my home bases too much. If the enemy somehow builds one of the "dreaded" units(ultras/colossi) I just add liberators. Otherwise I just build marines and win. Is this a fair fight? It isn't. With my knowledge I should die to many of the players I'm facing but thanks to the game system I am not. And that's why I play Terran the least. I feel ashamed to play the race the way I play it. It's wrong, this is just wrong. I put my rant into spoiler, but generally speaking I think the strategy portion should be bigger( imo 7(mechanics) : 3). Git gud son doesn't help. It's offensive to many players, because you just admitted, that the player would have to get on a level of GSL RO4+ player. Think about that to let that sunk in. Even if we agree the strategy limit is around top 500 players(and we both know this number is much bigger than it's supposed to be), it's still not real to say to playrs git gud. They cannot get good to use strategy, there will be always someone so mechanically better that strategy won't matter. We're talking about real time STRATEGY game where STRATEGY doesn't matter in most of the played games. (not streamed games, but played games) Can this be fixed? I believe not(certainly not with balance patches). I mean Starcraft has always been about mechanics more than stratagey sure stratagey plays a role but if my opponent micros perfectly and has 1.5 times as much stuff as I do chances are he's gonna win. It's just the nature of the game if your looking for games where stratagey is the deciding factor go play a tbs or a card game. Sc2 is first and foremost a game of mechanics with some stratagey layered ontop. I'm not sure having stratagey more than mechanics would nesisarily be a good thing. Take for example PVP. PvP is mostly decided by stratagey and not mechanics unlike the other matchups due to the deadlyness of allins in the mu and the fact that's at least in the early game of PvP both macro and micro tend to be trivial prior to the moment when players builds start giving them different sets of units. PvP can e fun but for most people it's considered one of the worst mu probably only zvz is considered to be less fun. Why? Because PvP is so dictated by stratagey that it feals coinflippy and poker like, it's low emphasis on mechanics makes the mu frustrating at times to play and not particularly exciting to watch.
I did NOT write that. Read what I wrote again and then reply to what I wrote. I made it bold so you can see it.
(put in italics what i disagree with)
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