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Update 2:
TRUE chose GSL, but if he leaves Korea after the Ro32 he can still play in the open bracket of WCS Austin.
Blizzard will also be reviewing region-lock for 2019:
"We are aware that, especially in 2018, there have been some unintended consequences stemming from WCS residency rules, and we will be reviewing them to see what will work best for 2019."
Source: https://wcs.starcraft2.com/en-us/news/21676853/TRUE-Chooses-GSL-over-Challenger-/
Update 1:
Wax shut down the other thread for getting off topic, and suggested that a new one be created for this topic.
This is the tweet that started it:
User was warned for this post
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United States33429 Posts
Per PSISTORM management, it appears to be a problem with the "qualifying foreign resident" section of the WCS rulebook.
For reference, from the WCS 2018 Rulebook, section 4.6(c), regarding WCS Circuit eligibility.
For the purposes of the WCS, a “qualifying foreign resident” is a participant who has provided Blizzard with proof that he or she has resided in a Circuit Country for at least one month prior to the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate, and who has provided Blizzard with a copy of his or her passport and a copy of his or her valid resident visa for that country that does not expire until after the conclusion of that event. A “qualifying foreign resident” may travel for non-competitive reasons outside of his or her country of residence only for a maximum of five weeks during the WCS Period, and must obtain Blizzard’s approval in advance before traveling outside of his or her country of residence during the WCS Period unless the travel is for purposes of participating in a WCS Global Event. In addition, a “qualifying foreign resident” must win at least 100 StarCraft II ladder games per month in his or her Circuit Region, and must play all StarCraft II online tournament and ladder games from his or her Circuit Region. Blizzard may waive one or more of these “qualifying foreign resident” requirements for participants who provide Blizzard with proof of their consistent residency in a country since January 1, 2013.
For further reference, section 4.6(b) which applies to effectively all "foreigners."
For the purposes of the WCS, a “citizen” is a participant who is a citizen of a Circuit Country, and a “permanent resident” is a participant who has legally qualified for permanent residency in a Circuit Country and has resided in that country for at least one year prior to the first match of the event in which the participant wishes to participate.
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Ah, the anti korean rules don't allow it other ways around? Not surprised. Sad for TRUE.
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My opinion on that matter:
On March 29 2018 16:04 Charoisaur wrote:What? How can they do this? This is outrageous. It's unfair. How can foreigners be allowed to play in both tournaments without any issue but koreans not be allowed to do the same???
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France12890 Posts
It's pretty sad.
Region locking should be removed now that Serral beat Classic and Rogue.
That way people won't be mad that foreigners take GSL spots, TRUE wouldn't be screwed, and foreign terrans will be as successful as foreigners that aren't named Serral or Neeb so this is fair.
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On March 29 2018 16:38 HolydaKing wrote:
Ah, the anti korean rules don't allow it other ways around? Not surprised. Sad for TRUE.
Yes. Succinctly put, the issue at hand is:
1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit
2. If you were born in any other country in the world, you can play in BOTH WCS Korea and WCS Circuit
Edit: added to OP
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Fuck that rule.
User was warned for this post
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United States33429 Posts
On March 29 2018 16:43 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 16:38 HolydaKing wrote:
Ah, the anti korean rules don't allow it other ways around? Not surprised. Sad for TRUE. Yes. Succinctly put, the issue at hand is: 1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit 2. If you were born in any other country in the world, you can play in BOTH WCS Korea and WCS Circuit Edit: added to OP
1. Is blatantly untrue. Korean players with qualifying visas can compete in both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea. However, travel and residency restrictions, and the WCS schedule make it practically impossible to complete a full, weeks long Code S run while also competing in WCS circuit. However, there's nothing stopping TRUE from going to Korea and qualifying and competing in an event within the travel parameters. For example, he's competing in Super Tournament, and there are no complaints/issues with that.
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So you are basically saying he can't travel as much as Scarlett because it's not possible for Koreans living outside of Korea? Otherwise Scarlett has to play in Code S for a long time too while also competing in WCS circuit (afaik).
That's what the rulebook says if I understand it correctly, but is it necessary?
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United States33429 Posts
On March 29 2018 16:54 HolydaKing wrote:
So you are basically saying he can't travel as much as Scarlett because it's not possible for Koreans living outside of Korea? Otherwise Scarlett has to play in Code S for a long time too while also competing in WCS circuit (afaik).
That's what the rulebook says if I understand it correctly, but is it necessary?
Citizens of a WCS Circuit country (basically anywhere but Korea) have no restrictions on their residence or travel.
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On March 29 2018 16:57 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 16:54 HolydaKing wrote:
So you are basically saying he can't travel as much as Scarlett because it's not possible for Koreans living outside of Korea? Otherwise Scarlett has to play in Code S for a long time too while also competing in WCS circuit (afaik).
That's what the rulebook says if I understand it correctly, but is it necessary? Citizens of a WCS Circuit country (basically anywhere but Korea) have no restrictions on their residence or travel.
So it's a Korea residency/travelling issue and not a Blizzard rule book issue?
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United States33429 Posts
On March 29 2018 16:58 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 16:57 Waxangel wrote:On March 29 2018 16:54 HolydaKing wrote:
So you are basically saying he can't travel as much as Scarlett because it's not possible for Koreans living outside of Korea? Otherwise Scarlett has to play in Code S for a long time too while also competing in WCS circuit (afaik).
That's what the rulebook says if I understand it correctly, but is it necessary? Citizens of a WCS Circuit country (basically anywhere but Korea) have no restrictions on their residence or travel. So it's a Korea residency/travelling issue and not a Blizzard rule book issue?
No, the WCS rules implement travel and residency conditions on Koreans who acquire certain visas that allow them to compete abroad. Such restrictions are listed in my first post in this thread.
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On March 29 2018 16:58 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 16:57 Waxangel wrote:On March 29 2018 16:54 HolydaKing wrote:
So you are basically saying he can't travel as much as Scarlett because it's not possible for Koreans living outside of Korea? Otherwise Scarlett has to play in Code S for a long time too while also competing in WCS circuit (afaik).
That's what the rulebook says if I understand it correctly, but is it necessary? Citizens of a WCS Circuit country (basically anywhere but Korea) have no restrictions on their residence or travel. So it's a Korea residency/travelling issue and not a Blizzard rule book issue?
Any Korean players can choose to acquire a foreign visa, live outside Korea, and play in the WCS in the same way TRUE does. However for various reasons most choose not to do this.
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so blizzard decide to kill foreigners pride again huh?
User was banned for this post.
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On March 29 2018 16:47 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 16:43 pvsnp wrote:On March 29 2018 16:38 HolydaKing wrote:
Ah, the anti korean rules don't allow it other ways around? Not surprised. Sad for TRUE. Yes. Succinctly put, the issue at hand is: 1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit 2. If you were born in any other country in the world, you can play in BOTH WCS Korea and WCS Circuit Edit: added to OP 1. Is blatantly untrue. Korean players with qualifying visas can compete in both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea. However, travel and residency restrictions, and the WCS schedule make it practically impossible to complete a full, weeks long Code S run while also competing in WCS circuit. However, there's nothing stopping TRUE from going to Korea and qualifying and competing in an event within the travel parameters. For example, he's competing in Super Tournament, and there are no complaints/issues with that.
What kind of competition has one of its competitors 100% unable to win? Under region-lock,TRUE cannot lift a Code S trophy even if he were to become a literal god overnight and utterly stomp every single player in Korea, not unless he wishes to sacrifice playing in the Circuit.
Competition? At best it's a sham, at worst a mockery.
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I really wish Blizzard either allowed everyone to play everywhere or lock GSL to only Koreans. It's already stupid enough how foreigners can come and play wherever they want but Koreans are stuck in GSL. Why should foreigners have the opportunity to play in two locked regions and not koreans? makes no sense!
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China6329 Posts
Blizzard needs to sort out those eligibility holes, controversies around it happen almost every year since WCS was a thing.
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People don't care about real solutions they just want to choose a side and then defend their position at all costs.
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Whatever you do Blizzard, please don't split the scene in half! If half of GSL moves to WCS GSL would be finished.
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I'm sorry, really sorry for that.. but It's just fucked up, is what that is.
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This is racism, pure and simple.
If TRUE and Scarlett are subject to different conditions of participation, the WCS rules are racist.
This has got to change!
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It's kind of silly how Koreans are not allowed to play in WCS events, and how hard it is for foreigners to participate in GSL. Sure, you could argue that both disadvantages cancel each other out, but stuff like this will always generate controversy. Why not just:
(1) Allow Korean players unrestricted access to the majority of the WCS circuit
(2) Allow foreign players to qualify and play in GSL remotely from sanctioned venues up to the quarterfinals + sponsor a trip to Korea for the ones who reach the semis.
Hearthstone is doing something similar to (2) and it it's not perfect, but it works.
Yes, lag can be an issue, but that is something both
(a) the foreign players who want to compete in the GSL remotely and
(b) the Korean players who want to qualify for WCS circuit events remotely
have to live with.
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Can we ask (as the community) an official rep from Blizzard?
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On March 29 2018 17:03 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 16:58 HolydaKing wrote:On March 29 2018 16:57 Waxangel wrote:On March 29 2018 16:54 HolydaKing wrote:
So you are basically saying he can't travel as much as Scarlett because it's not possible for Koreans living outside of Korea? Otherwise Scarlett has to play in Code S for a long time too while also competing in WCS circuit (afaik).
That's what the rulebook says if I understand it correctly, but is it necessary? Citizens of a WCS Circuit country (basically anywhere but Korea) have no restrictions on their residence or travel. So it's a Korea residency/travelling issue and not a Blizzard rule book issue? No, the WCS rules implement travel and residency conditions on Koreans who acquire certain visas that allow them to compete abroad. Such restrictions are listed in my first post in this thread.
So in other words, what pvsnp was correct and you're just nitpicking semantics?
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France12890 Posts
On March 29 2018 17:48 JustPassingBy wrote:
It's kind of silly how Koreans are not allowed to play in WCS events, and how hard it is for foreigners to participate in GSL. Sure, you could argue that both disadvantages cancel each other out, but stuff like this will always generate controversy. Why not just:
(1) Allow Korean players unrestricted access to the majority of the WCS circuit
(2) Allow foreign players to qualify and play in GSL remotely from sanctioned venues up to the quarterfinals + sponsor a trip to Korea for the ones who reach the semis.
Hearthstone is doing something similar to (2) and it it's not perfect, but it works.
Yes, lag can be an issue, but that is something both
(a) the foreign players who want to compete in the GSL remotely and
(b) the Korean players who want to qualify for WCS circuit events remotely
have to live with.
I strongly disagree.
As much as I enjoyed TSL3 (Thorzain victory vs Naniwa is the one I'm talking about), it was plagued with lag issues.
A GSL played cross server would be a disgrace.
The simpler solution would be to go back, no region lock in 2019 and see how it goes.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 29 2018 17:54 engesser1 wrote:
Can we ask (as the community) an official rep from Blizzard?
They will ignore you the same way they ignored the disband of KeSPA(and thus the infrastructure)
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On March 29 2018 17:59 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 17:48 JustPassingBy wrote:
It's kind of silly how Koreans are not allowed to play in WCS events, and how hard it is for foreigners to participate in GSL. Sure, you could argue that both disadvantages cancel each other out, but stuff like this will always generate controversy. Why not just:
(1) Allow Korean players unrestricted access to the majority of the WCS circuit
(2) Allow foreign players to qualify and play in GSL remotely from sanctioned venues up to the quarterfinals + sponsor a trip to Korea for the ones who reach the semis.
Hearthstone is doing something similar to (2) and it it's not perfect, but it works.
Yes, lag can be an issue, but that is something both
(a) the foreign players who want to compete in the GSL remotely and
(b) the Korean players who want to qualify for WCS circuit events remotely
have to live with. I strongly disagree. As much as I enjoyed TSL3 (Thorzain victory vs Naniwa is the one I'm talking about), it was plagued with lag issues. A GSL played cross server would be a disgrace. The simpler solution would be to go back, no region lock in 2019 and see how it goes.
Then I suggest at least making some testruns. Just because of a privately organized tournament had problems 7 years ago doesn't mean that an officially event with blizzard support has to fail now.
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On March 29 2018 18:10 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 17:59 Poopi wrote:On March 29 2018 17:48 JustPassingBy wrote:
It's kind of silly how Koreans are not allowed to play in WCS events, and how hard it is for foreigners to participate in GSL. Sure, you could argue that both disadvantages cancel each other out, but stuff like this will always generate controversy. Why not just:
(1) Allow Korean players unrestricted access to the majority of the WCS circuit
(2) Allow foreign players to qualify and play in GSL remotely from sanctioned venues up to the quarterfinals + sponsor a trip to Korea for the ones who reach the semis.
Hearthstone is doing something similar to (2) and it it's not perfect, but it works.
Yes, lag can be an issue, but that is something both
(a) the foreign players who want to compete in the GSL remotely and
(b) the Korean players who want to qualify for WCS circuit events remotely
have to live with. I strongly disagree. As much as I enjoyed TSL3 (Thorzain victory vs Naniwa is the one I'm talking about), it was plagued with lag issues. A GSL played cross server would be a disgrace. The simpler solution would be to go back, no region lock in 2019 and see how it goes. Then I suggest at least making some testruns. Just because of a privately organized tournament had problems 7 years ago doesn't mean that an officially event with blizzard support has to fail now.
Blizzard is (part of) the government? (;
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France12890 Posts
On March 29 2018 18:10 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 17:59 Poopi wrote:On March 29 2018 17:48 JustPassingBy wrote:
It's kind of silly how Koreans are not allowed to play in WCS events, and how hard it is for foreigners to participate in GSL. Sure, you could argue that both disadvantages cancel each other out, but stuff like this will always generate controversy. Why not just:
(1) Allow Korean players unrestricted access to the majority of the WCS circuit
(2) Allow foreign players to qualify and play in GSL remotely from sanctioned venues up to the quarterfinals + sponsor a trip to Korea for the ones who reach the semis.
Hearthstone is doing something similar to (2) and it it's not perfect, but it works.
Yes, lag can be an issue, but that is something both
(a) the foreign players who want to compete in the GSL remotely and
(b) the Korean players who want to qualify for WCS circuit events remotely
have to live with. I strongly disagree. As much as I enjoyed TSL3 (Thorzain victory vs Naniwa is the one I'm talking about), it was plagued with lag issues. A GSL played cross server would be a disgrace. The simpler solution would be to go back, no region lock in 2019 and see how it goes. Then I suggest at least making some testruns. Just because of a privately organized tournament had problems 7 years ago doesn't mean that an officially event with blizzard support has to fail now.
? The ping from EU to NA or KR to NA is still bad.
EU to KR is unplayable.
Now or 7 years ago doesn't change that fact.
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#FreeKoreanSC2ProGamers
remove region lock! its long overdue imo
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This is outrageous honestly. I remember the uproar about people finding it terrible that Koreans were living and practising in Korea and flying out to WCS events.
I have nothing against Scarlett and SpeciaL as players but they are doing exactly what everyone was upset at pre region lock. They are living in and training in Korea and flying out to WCS events and they’re playing in the GSL at the same time. They’re double dipping and being allowed to. Even the WCS Koreans weren’t allowed to do that pre-lock iirc
TRUE on the other hand can’t do this even though he has a US visa and has been playing and training in the US because he’s Korean.
Rules need to change now for this, it isn’t fair that some players can double dip while others can’t. Either get players to commit to one circuit at the start of the circuit or undo the region locking completely.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 29 2018 18:35 KatatoniK wrote:
This is outrageous honestly. I remember the uproar about people finding it terrible that Koreans were living and practising in Korea and flying out to WCS events.
I have nothing against Scarlett and SpeciaL as players but they are doing exactly what everyone was upset at pre region lock. They are living in and training in Korea and flying out to WCS events and they’re playing in the GSL at the same time. They’re double dipping and being allowed to. Even the WCS Koreans weren’t allowed to do that pre-lock iirc
TRUE on the other hand can’t do this even though he has a US visa and has been playing and training in the US because he’s Korean.
Rules need to change now for this, it isn’t fair that some players can double dip while others can’t. Either get players to commit to one circuit at the start of the circuit or undo the region locking completely.
Those flying players were in rich teams. Otherwise they were living in there and most importantly, Europe was so laggy that they had to live here otherwise they risked not qualifying or getting out of the competition in RO32(e.g. Mvp).
Our ladder had so many Koreans living here(we had one of the best terrans out there, ForGG), nowadays we have only foreigners(thus we have only Protoss and Zerg players).
Sure, WCS NA was bad, as they could have competed from Korea.
And on the top of that - nowadays there are no teams that could support lower tier Koreans flying left & right, damn it, even rich Koreans would have to invest their money. The only team we have is JAGW and they were not flying before, so I don't see a reason to start now.
Korean infrastructure colapsed but the region lock is still in place like the KeSPA teams are still supporting SC2 teams and players.
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How about just let anyone play anything? That way we could see a good Blizzcon and not 3-0 losses for non - Koreans...
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On March 29 2018 18:55 SlyZ1 wrote:
How about just let anyone play anything? That way we could see a good Blizzcon and not 3-0 losses for non - Koreans...
There is the "nuclear option", which is to simply abolish the WCS altogether and let each tournament organizer to decide on region locking for themselves.
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On March 29 2018 17:44 Aunvilgodess wrote:
Whatever you do Blizzard, please don't split the scene in half! If half of GSL moves to WCS GSL would be finished.
The fuck are you talking about?
The well of talent in Korea is MASSIVE but most of them don't have the resources to fly themselves all over the world to compete in global events.
GSL being the only tournament has created a huge bottleneck for Korean talent, they can't make it through qualifiers to actually win money so they have to either quit or switch games.
If half of the best players up and left GSL to go play in WCS events, those players that couldn't get by them now all of a sudden have real shots at the money.
What's fucked up about all of this is that the only "poor progamers" that Blizz seems to care about are the Western ones.
This whole situation looks bad for Blizz, for Starcraft and for e-sports in general. Until Blizz comes to their senses and fucking apologizes for it I'm boycotting the WCS events.
You can't call something a legit competition when you are barring qualified competitors that follow all of the goddamn rules in the rulebook from competing just because they're Korean. You can't.
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And for the record. Might I remind everyone in this thread that IEM Katowice was the best SC2 tournament BY FAR that we have had in probably 3 years. It was by far the best tournament that we've had since regionlocking started.
What did Katowice do differently that set it up for success? Global event with regional qualifiers and a GLOBAL FUCKING OPEN BRACKET.
Good things happen when we just let the best players play. It's really that simple.
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Shame to see TRUE in this position, though I guess this is bringing up something that I hope Blizzard can take to heart: the scene is different now than when region locking began. I actually am under the impression that overall region locking has done more good than harm, but I'm really concerned about the Korean scene right now. I don't know the right way forward, but I hope they find some way to give some support to the rising stars who would once have been in Code A. The scene will die without support for rising talent.
I guess the question is whether there's the viewership to support it.
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Feelings aside, I think Blizzard really needs to address this directly. If left untouched, this makes the whole scene look kinda pathetic.
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This is such a blatantly bad idea. These Affirmative Action models really need to be left in the past. The people who earn a seat in a tournament should be the ones who get to play. Eligibility should be based on merit, and not the circumstances of where a person was born. We don't get to choose where we are born, the colour of our skin, or the culture we are indoctrinated by. Why should we reward some, and disadvantage others for something of which they have ZERO control. This is totally unethical practise.
People really want to see their favourite and the best players showcased. I know for myself and plenty of others, that when somebody like Byun or any other top tier player has a bad couple of months, falling from tournaments etc, we will get bored with watching the game. It is only when the best players get screen time that our interest in watching is renewed. I will end up watching even lower quality players when there are good players to watching previous or following matches. When there are only lower quality players on a roster, I will hardly ever watch that.
This is a bad situation for the players, and the viewers.
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On March 29 2018 17:47 sneakyfox wrote:
This is racism, pure and simple.
If TRUE and Scarlett er subject to different conditions of participation, the WCS rules are racist.
This has got to change!
the fuck is this...
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On March 29 2018 19:00 Chris_Havoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 18:55 SlyZ1 wrote:
How about just let anyone play anything? That way we could see a good Blizzcon and not 3-0 losses for non - Koreans... There is the "nuclear option", which is to simply abolish the WCS altogether and let each tournament organizer to decide on region locking for themselves.
And that worked for almost 3 years until blizzard decided they needed to run things. I miss late 2010-early 2013
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Completely undoing region lock is not likely to happen. The problem is it will result in fewer players getting a larger share of the prizes, discouraging new or lower-tier players from competing and ultimately fewer active pros in both regions.
I expect the end result is that region lock will apply for both sides, which is probably what they should have done to start if the goal was fostering local talent.
However, Blizzard fucked themselves on this one because changing the rules mid-season is would be a huge headache.
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Just let True play in GSL and WCS, Taeja is gone, Polt is gone, hydra is married, True is the only foreign korean that remains just let him play
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this is disgusting
User was warned for this post
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I'd be happy if there were region locking like wcs with a global mixed top tier region similar to CodeS.
Those good enough play on the top tier global scene, the rest battle it out in their region.
Question is if sc2 interest is big enough to support an expansion like that and also if it would drain some regions too much of top players.
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On March 29 2018 19:00 Chris_Havoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 18:55 SlyZ1 wrote:
How about just let anyone play anything? That way we could see a good Blizzcon and not 3-0 losses for non - Koreans... There is the "nuclear option", which is to simply abolish the WCS altogether and let each tournament organizer to decide on region locking for themselves.
WCS is a stillborn abomination that no one called for. Your option is actually the best one.
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On March 29 2018 21:13 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 19:00 Chris_Havoc wrote:On March 29 2018 18:55 SlyZ1 wrote:
How about just let anyone play anything? That way we could see a good Blizzcon and not 3-0 losses for non - Koreans... There is the "nuclear option", which is to simply abolish the WCS altogether and let each tournament organizer to decide on region locking for themselves. WCS is a stillborn abomination that no one called for. Your option is actually the best one.
Yes let's abandon WCS so we have no StarCraft to watch except for online tournaments.
They should just region lock GSL and be done with this.
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I don't see how removing regionlock help lower tier Koreans? But for the sake for fairness open up 2-4 spots in the WCS for Koreans. Or region lock GSL.
Oh, and let TRUE play.
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Why would they enforce this?
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Italy3433 Posts
On March 29 2018 16:28 pvsnp wrote:
This basically means:
1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit
2. If you were born in any other country in the world, you can play in BOTH WCS Korea and WCS Circuit
No exceptions, no loopholes, no workarounds.
...this is pretty dumb...
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On March 29 2018 22:01 travis wrote:
Why would they enforce this?
According to the tweet in the second post of the thread they're not just enforcing it, they changed the interpretation of the rule just to stop TRUE.
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It's super sad and unfair, but something we've known about. No Korean competing in the WCS Circuit would realistically ever be able to play GSL at the same time.
Many have mentioned many times how unfair the situation is.
Finally the issue has come up and it will be interesting to see how Blizzard responds. I really hope they don't ignore it.
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On March 29 2018 21:13 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 19:00 Chris_Havoc wrote:On March 29 2018 18:55 SlyZ1 wrote:
How about just let anyone play anything? That way we could see a good Blizzcon and not 3-0 losses for non - Koreans... There is the "nuclear option", which is to simply abolish the WCS altogether and let each tournament organizer to decide on region locking for themselves. WCS is a stillborn abomination that no one called for. Your option is actually the best one.
Nobody would run big sc2 tournaments without WCS. We only have those tournaments because Blizzard pays for everything. Just remove region lock, but WCS is needed.
Otherwise HSC would be the biggest event of the year, but only if the community stays passionate enough to crowdfund it.
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Delete region locking or enforce it on Korean events as well. The former is better than the latter as competitive events should be open to everyone and the best player should win. If non-Korean Starcraft dies, so be it. A region with only 2 of the 3 races wasn't worth saving in the first place.
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This could be potentially awesome. We could finally see other foreigner having to do the same
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On March 29 2018 23:01 Boggyb wrote:
Delete region locking or enforce it on Korean events as well. The former is better than the latter as competitive events should be open to everyone and the best player should win. If non-Korean Starcraft dies, so be it. A region with only 2 of the 3 races wasn't worth saving in the first place.
The problem is that we've gone through this before. If the global scene collapses, the Korean scene will also collapse. Like it or not, but it's money from Blizzard and outside organizations that are keeping the SC2 scene alive.
Remember, tournament organizers stopped wanting to hold SC2 events because the local scenes were getting destroyed. If we return to a pre-region lock time, the foreign scene will collapse and then the Korean scene.
So if that's the case, I'm in favour of tiered region locking. If you are of a certain skill level in a region, you cannot compete in both regions, but if you are under a certain skill level, you can compete in all tournaments.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 29 2018 23:46 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 23:01 Boggyb wrote:
Delete region locking or enforce it on Korean events as well. The former is better than the latter as competitive events should be open to everyone and the best player should win. If non-Korean Starcraft dies, so be it. A region with only 2 of the 3 races wasn't worth saving in the first place. The problem is that we've gone through this before. If the global scene collapses, the Korean scene will also collapse. Like it or not, but it's money from Blizzard and outside organizations that are keeping the SC2 scene alive. Remember, tournament organizers stopped wanting to hold SC2 events because the local scenes were getting destroyed. If we return to a pre-region lock time, the foreign scene will collapse and then the Korean scene. So if that's the case, I'm in favour of tiered region locking. If you are of a certain skill level in a region, you cannot compete in both regions, but if you are under a certain skill level, you can compete in all tournaments.
In that case lock the GSL and save the Korea. Let the foreigners taste their own medicine.
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So if it stands and TRUE choses WCS, what happens to his GSL slot? Wildcard? Is there even time for that?
Whether or not the rule is stupid, Blizzard should have told TRUE (and his team) before the qualifier even began. Looks very amateur (that or TRUE ignored it but i find it unlikely)
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On March 29 2018 23:47 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 23:46 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 29 2018 23:01 Boggyb wrote:
Delete region locking or enforce it on Korean events as well. The former is better than the latter as competitive events should be open to everyone and the best player should win. If non-Korean Starcraft dies, so be it. A region with only 2 of the 3 races wasn't worth saving in the first place. The problem is that we've gone through this before. If the global scene collapses, the Korean scene will also collapse. Like it or not, but it's money from Blizzard and outside organizations that are keeping the SC2 scene alive. Remember, tournament organizers stopped wanting to hold SC2 events because the local scenes were getting destroyed. If we return to a pre-region lock time, the foreign scene will collapse and then the Korean scene. So if that's the case, I'm in favour of tiered region locking. If you are of a certain skill level in a region, you cannot compete in both regions, but if you are under a certain skill level, you can compete in all tournaments. In that case lock the GSL and save the Korea. Let the foreigners taste their own medicine.
The reason GSL isn't region-locked has less to do with Blizzard and their rules and more with 1st GOMTV and now AfreecaTV wanting foreigners in it also since foreigners vs koreans draws alot of viewers overall for SC2. WCS is region-locked due to Blizzard to keep prize money more in other countries so they can do SC2 more fulltime instead of Korea taking 90% of the prize money.
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What's reason behind letting Foreigners to play both WCS and GSL and force True to pick between one of the two? I'm sorry but this is terrible
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Its not just the region lock.
Code S requires living in Korea while playing in Code S. If they remove this restriction then TRUE wouldn't have any issues participating in both. It will involve a bit more travel, but he'll be able to do it.
So its both sides that make it impossible, Code S and the region lock. If it mattered that much for KR they could have had less restricted rules for who is allowed to participate and play in Code S, though it means that more foreigners will play there, so its up to them as well.
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On March 30 2018 00:07 bulya wrote:
Its not just the region lock.
Code S requires living in Korea while playing in Code S. If they remove this restriction then TRUE wouldn't have any issues participating in both. It will involve a bit more travel, but he'll be able to do it.
So its both sides that make it impossible, Code S and the region lock. If it mattered that much for KR they could have had less restricted rules for who is allowed to participate and play in Code S, though it means that more foreigners will play there, so its up to them as well.
Right, so they could say "everything up to ro16 or ro8 is online" kind of like the old WCS. The GSL is basically soft-regionlocked. Anyone can play, but you have to physically be there.
Or conversely, if WCS made its qualifiers offline only, then players would be more likely to stay in their home region because of flight costs.
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I feel like this rule is really outdated at this point. There are foreigners who can hang with Koreans now. It's not like the yesteryears where it wasn't even close. The Korean SC2 scene is struggling enough as it is - these people deserve, imo, to be able to make a living at this just like everyone else in the world.
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On March 29 2018 16:47 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2018 16:43 pvsnp wrote:On March 29 2018 16:38 HolydaKing wrote:
Ah, the anti korean rules don't allow it other ways around? Not surprised. Sad for TRUE. Yes. Succinctly put, the issue at hand is: 1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit 2. If you were born in any other country in the world, you can play in BOTH WCS Korea and WCS Circuit Edit: added to OP 1. Is blatantly untrue. Korean players with qualifying visas can compete in both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea. However, travel and residency restrictions, and the WCS schedule make it practically impossible to complete a full, weeks long Code S run while also competing in WCS circuit. However, there's nothing stopping TRUE from going to Korea and qualifying and competing in an event within the travel parameters. For example, he's competing in Super Tournament, and there are no complaints/issues with that.
Wait but the whole point here is that True cannot compete in Super Tournament without forfeiting his Circuit run.
I don't understand. What am I missing?
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On March 30 2018 00:29 LHK wrote:
I feel like this rule is really outdated at this point. There are foreigners who can hang with Koreans now. It's not like the yesteryears where it wasn't even close. The Korean SC2 scene is struggling enough as it is - these people deserve, imo, to be able to make a living at this just like everyone else in the world.
I'm a super fan of foreigners, but I assume you've seen the results of Katowice, Blizzcon, WESG, and GSL vs. The World? Some foreigners can hang with some Koreans, but by and large the Korean scene is better than the foreign scene. If we want fairness, then we can region lock both scenes entirely, but removing the regionlock entirely is not a good option.
On March 30 2018 00:32 OrangeGarage wrote:Wait but the whole point here is that True cannot compete in Super Tournament without forfeiting his Circuit run.
I don't understand. What am I missing?
We haven't heard anything, so maybe Blizzard is making TRUE forfeit his ST participation, but as of right now, TRUE is being forced to forfeit participation in the GSL not the Super Tournament.
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Injustice, plain and simple. Open competition should be paramount but Jingoism and coddling have won out because of the "faceless Korean" meme, which is really just a thinly-veiled tribal in group vs. out group mentality.
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On March 30 2018 00:35 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 00:29 LHK wrote:
I feel like this rule is really outdated at this point. There are foreigners who can hang with Koreans now. It's not like the yesteryears where it wasn't even close. The Korean SC2 scene is struggling enough as it is - these people deserve, imo, to be able to make a living at this just like everyone else in the world. I'm a super fan of foreigners, but I assume you've seen the results of Katowice, Blizzcon, WESG, and GSL vs. The World? Some foreigners can hang with some Koreans, but by and large the Korean scene is better than the foreign scene. If we want fairness, then we can region lock both scenes entirely, but removing the regionlock entirely is not a good option. Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 00:32 OrangeGarage wrote:Wait but the whole point here is that True cannot compete in Super Tournament without forfeiting his Circuit run.
I don't understand. What am I missing? We haven't heard anything, so maybe Blizzard is making TRUE forfeit his ST participation, but as of right now, TRUE is being forced to forfeit participation in the GSL not the Super Tournament.
Oh you're right! I forgot True made code s this season  Shame to see he can't participate in both even though it sounds like he worked out the logistics. I wonder what happens to the GSL spot when he leaves?
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On March 29 2018 23:48 WGT-Baal wrote:
So if it stands and TRUE choses WCS, what happens to his GSL slot? Wildcard? Is there even time for that?
There is plenty of time to hold a wildcard tournament if they do it online. If they don't feel like going to that effort, they could just have a mini-tournament featuring Maka, NaTuRal, and jjakji for the spot since they were the only players eliminated by TRUE in either qualifier.
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It's simply disgusting. I feel very sad for TRUE. If he chooses WCS, I really wish he wins all money from the foreignland to compensate for this bullshit.
I actually never complained about the region lock, but this news makes me want to puke.
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i wonder why blizzard responsible stuff didn`t notify TRUE before qualification that he can`t take his GSL slot either, or why TRUE himself decided go to qualification if he knows that he cannot participate there.
that would prevent us from many issues and mess what we`ve got now
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Region locking made sense and helped when foreigners were a developing scene and Korean competition was leaps and bounds ahead. It doesn't anymore, I hope Blizzard is entertaining the idea of removing it.
It's just like China's developing economy, it made sense to isolate to spur growth but now that they are "winning" just like foreign Starcraft players, it's time to level the playing field again.
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On March 30 2018 01:32 Mike L wrote:
i wonder why blizzard responsible stuff didn`t notify TRUE before qualification that he can`t take his GSL slot either, or why TRUE himself decided go to qualification if he knows that he cannot participate there.
that would prevent us from many issues and mess what we`ve got now
It wouldn't prevent the mess. We just wouldn't have official confirmation of the double standard which means an outcry against it might not happen and change it.
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On March 30 2018 01:36 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 01:32 Mike L wrote:
i wonder why blizzard responsible stuff didn`t notify TRUE before qualification that he can`t take his GSL slot either, or why TRUE himself decided go to qualification if he knows that he cannot participate there.
that would prevent us from many issues and mess what we`ve got now It wouldn't prevent the mess. We just wouldn't have official confirmation of the double standard which means an outcry against it might not happen and change it.
did you actually believe that thread on TL and some tweets might be able to change region rules?
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This is the most outrageous thing i read in a while about sc2. i was already in the team "I'll root against all foreingner in GSL cuz Koreans can't play in both circuits" and some people were saying "they can do the same as True" (basically spending a year in foreign country without playing WCS tournament at all) but even that is not possible as it seems !
good job blizzard ! GSL should grow some balls and ban all foreigner for participating. Or maybe allowing only one foreigner spot.
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On March 30 2018 00:35 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 00:29 LHK wrote:
I feel like this rule is really outdated at this point. There are foreigners who can hang with Koreans now. It's not like the yesteryears where it wasn't even close. The Korean SC2 scene is struggling enough as it is - these people deserve, imo, to be able to make a living at this just like everyone else in the world. I'm a super fan of foreigners, but I assume you've seen the results of Katowice, Blizzcon, WESG, and GSL vs. The World? Some foreigners can hang with some Koreans, but by and large the Korean scene is better than the foreign scene. If we want fairness, then we can region lock both scenes entirely, but removing the regionlock entirely is not a good option. Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 00:32 OrangeGarage wrote:Wait but the whole point here is that True cannot compete in Super Tournament without forfeiting his Circuit run.
I don't understand. What am I missing? We haven't heard anything, so maybe Blizzard is making TRUE forfeit his ST participation, but as of right now, TRUE is being forced to forfeit participation in the GSL not the Super Tournament.
keep in mind that it were only the top top koreans who facerolled foreigners. Below the Inno/Maru/Dark tier the koreans are far less dominant than they used to be.
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On March 30 2018 02:05 Mike L wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 01:36 Boggyb wrote:On March 30 2018 01:32 Mike L wrote:
i wonder why blizzard responsible stuff didn`t notify TRUE before qualification that he can`t take his GSL slot either, or why TRUE himself decided go to qualification if he knows that he cannot participate there.
that would prevent us from many issues and mess what we`ve got now It wouldn't prevent the mess. We just wouldn't have official confirmation of the double standard which means an outcry against it might not happen and change it. did you actually believe that thread on TL and some tweets might be able to change region rules?
It has in the past like when the "ForGG rule" got implemented.
But recently their actions seemed to be very anti-korean so I'm not sure it will happen again.
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Does jjakji, who lost the deciding match, get his spot?
Outrageous nevertheless.
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I really hope foreigner lose in ro32, and sad for the lowtier Koreans, they could have compete in GSL and earn some monney, but the best foreigner, who can compet in WCS circuit, got there and took their monney and their spot..
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On March 30 2018 02:31 Mun_Su wrote:
I really hope foreigner lose in ro32, and sad for the lowtier Koreans, they could have compete in GSL and earn some monney, but the best foreigner, who can compet in WCS circuit, got there and took their monney and their spot..
Nah man, those few bottom spots aren't a big deal.
Not hurting the korean scene at all, Dark and Inno are still doing fine.
Who cares about random mid-tier koreans anyway?
/s
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On March 30 2018 02:05 Mike L wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 01:36 Boggyb wrote:On March 30 2018 01:32 Mike L wrote:
i wonder why blizzard responsible stuff didn`t notify TRUE before qualification that he can`t take his GSL slot either, or why TRUE himself decided go to qualification if he knows that he cannot participate there.
that would prevent us from many issues and mess what we`ve got now It wouldn't prevent the mess. We just wouldn't have official confirmation of the double standard which means an outcry against it might not happen and change it. did you actually believe that thread on TL and some tweets might be able to change region rules?
Companies have no morals until they are shamed. If enough people call Blizzard on it, they will react.
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On March 30 2018 01:32 Mike L wrote:
i wonder why blizzard responsible stuff didn`t notify TRUE before qualification that he can`t take his GSL slot either, or why TRUE himself decided go to qualification if he knows that he cannot participate there.
that would prevent us from many issues and mess what we`ve got now
That would assume that Blizzard knew in advance that he was doing these qualifiers. They may not have known until he already qualified.
As to why TRUE thought he could participate, I really don't know because when I read the rules, I immediately realized that TRUE would be in trouble.
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On March 30 2018 02:37 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 02:05 Mike L wrote:On March 30 2018 01:36 Boggyb wrote:On March 30 2018 01:32 Mike L wrote:
i wonder why blizzard responsible stuff didn`t notify TRUE before qualification that he can`t take his GSL slot either, or why TRUE himself decided go to qualification if he knows that he cannot participate there.
that would prevent us from many issues and mess what we`ve got now It wouldn't prevent the mess. We just wouldn't have official confirmation of the double standard which means an outcry against it might not happen and change it. did you actually believe that thread on TL and some tweets might be able to change region rules? Companies have no morals until they are shamed. If enough people call Blizzard on it, they will react.
I dunno, region-lock has been controversial ever since Blizzard implemented it, but they've shown no inclination to even respond to community outrage in that regard
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Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it.
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On March 30 2018 03:37 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 02:37 Boggyb wrote:On March 30 2018 02:05 Mike L wrote:On March 30 2018 01:36 Boggyb wrote:On March 30 2018 01:32 Mike L wrote:
i wonder why blizzard responsible stuff didn`t notify TRUE before qualification that he can`t take his GSL slot either, or why TRUE himself decided go to qualification if he knows that he cannot participate there.
that would prevent us from many issues and mess what we`ve got now It wouldn't prevent the mess. We just wouldn't have official confirmation of the double standard which means an outcry against it might not happen and change it. did you actually believe that thread on TL and some tweets might be able to change region rules? Companies have no morals until they are shamed. If enough people call Blizzard on it, they will react. I dunno, region-lock has been controversial ever since Blizzard implemented it, but they've shown no inclination to even respond to community outrage in that regard
There were arguments in defense of region lock. Bad arguments, but arguments none the less. There is no argument for a blatant double standard for players based solely on country of origin.
User was warned for this post
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Jesus Fucking Christ the moderation on this site is as dumb as Blizzard is with this decision. You can't talk about the content of an event in a thread about the event and you can't say that double standards are indefensible.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 30 2018 04:17 Boggyb wrote:
Jesus Fucking Christ the moderation on this site is as dumb as Blizzard is with this decision. You can't talk about the content of an event in a thread about the event and you can't say that double standards are indefensible.
Uh.....quality of the moderation notwithstanding, it's only rational to take a Warning as, well, a warning.
Which is to say, stop. Not double down.
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On March 30 2018 04:19 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 04:17 Boggyb wrote:
Jesus Fucking Christ the moderation on this site is as dumb as Blizzard is with this decision. You can't talk about the content of an event in a thread about the event and you can't say that double standards are indefensible.
Uh.....quality of the moderation notwithstanding, it's only rational to take a Warning as, well, a warning. Which is to say, stop. Not double down.
People get away with bullshit when nobody calls them on it.
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On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it.
Most of the WCS EU koreans didn't live in korea.
Denying the similarity of foreigners playing in GSL to koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best.
It's exactly the same
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The funniest shit is that those foreigner living in korea now have an advantage towards foreigner who dont. Nothing has changed in the end
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On March 30 2018 04:23 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 04:19 pvsnp wrote:On March 30 2018 04:17 Boggyb wrote:
Jesus Fucking Christ the moderation on this site is as dumb as Blizzard is with this decision. You can't talk about the content of an event in a thread about the event and you can't say that double standards are indefensible.
Uh.....quality of the moderation notwithstanding, it's only rational to take a Warning as, well, a warning. Which is to say, stop. Not double down. People get away with bullshit when nobody calls them on it.
Have you read Water Margin? There's a saying in there that goes something like:
"Fear not officials–except those over you."
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TLADT24920 Posts
On March 30 2018 04:17 Boggyb wrote:
Jesus Fucking Christ the moderation on this site is as dumb as Blizzard is with this decision. You can't talk about the content of an event in a thread about the event and you can't say that double standards are indefensible.
Please take it to website feedback if you have any issues with moderation.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it.
ForGG, MC, the whole My Insanity team, First & Yoda(I believe they were in a British team).
The WCS wasn't just WCS NA. It may surprise you, but almost all Koreans in WCS EU were living in Europe. And those who were not had hard times getting over qualifications(e.g. Mvp).
So the comparison is acutally fine.
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On March 30 2018 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it. Most of the WCS EU koreans didn't live in korea. Denying the similarity of foreigners playing in GSL to koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. It's exactly the same
And the EU scene didn't completely die as a result, since players like ForGG, Mvp, and MC were playing on ladder and giving EU players good practice. Meanwhile the WCS NA Ro16 was 2-3 foreigners and the rest were Koreans flying over for the week, getting rid of any chance of a scene developing.
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On March 30 2018 02:45 Kalera wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 01:32 Mike L wrote:
i wonder why blizzard responsible stuff didn`t notify TRUE before qualification that he can`t take his GSL slot either, or why TRUE himself decided go to qualification if he knows that he cannot participate there.
that would prevent us from many issues and mess what we`ve got now That would assume that Blizzard knew in advance that he was doing these qualifiers. They may not have known until he already qualified. As to why TRUE thought he could participate, I really don't know because when I read the rules, I immediately realized that TRUE would be in trouble.
doesn`t matter will he advance or not the main goal that he cannot play in GSL and WCS and if BLizzard knews it back then as we might assume with the things what will happen after he advanced, why wouldn`t they didn`t notifying him and makes situation like this at least less complicated for each involving side compared to what we`ve see now?
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I'm done with watching GSL when foreigners plays
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 30 2018 05:02 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it. Most of the WCS EU koreans didn't live in korea. Denying the similarity of foreigners playing in GSL to koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. It's exactly the same And the EU scene didn't completely die as a result, since players like ForGG, Mvp, and MC were playing on ladder and giving EU players good practice. Meanwhile the WCS NA Ro16 was 2-3 foreigners and the rest were Koreans flying over for the week, getting rid of any chance of a scene developing.
Yes, and currently foreigners are killing the Korean scene. KeSPA teams are no more, only the last man standing are JAGW. Players have to win GSL for money. Low tier players are robbed by foreigner hopes. It seems only fair to either disband the region lock for all OR lock the players OR lock the GSL. This way all the foreign hopes cannot live in Korea and travel into WCS EXACTLY AS YOU DESCRIBED.
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On March 30 2018 05:36 Mun_Su wrote:
I'm done with watching GSL when foreigners plays
You don't want to see them get wrecked?
Let's be honest here, it always happens sooner or later. Mostly sooner.
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On March 30 2018 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it. Most of the WCS EU koreans didn't live in korea. Denying the similarity of foreigners playing in GSL to koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. It's exactly the same
There is some similarity, but all foreigners except Scarlett in recent years have ben stopped at the ro32. In WCS EU/AM, there were consistently around 6/8 or 5/8 foreigners Koreans in WCS EU and 7/8 to 8/8 Koreans in WCS AM.
To say that the two situations are the same is not really accurate. One the one hand, you have the Koreans taking an large portion of the WCS EU/AM prize pool for 6 competitions, and on the other hand, you have a couple of foreigners having no success for three years and taking a small portion of the overall prize pool and then Scarlett's success in the ro8.
To deny the difference between the two situations is wrong, but to say that the situations are exactly the same is also quite wrong.
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WCS NA had nothing to do with NA players when Koreans were whooping WCS AM back in 2013 and 2014.
People have pretty short term memory but the Koreans pretty much destroyed WCS AM for a period. Look at this rubbish below!!
North America
2013 WCS S1 - Final 8: HerO, Alicia, mOOnGLaDe, Ryung, CranK, aLive, Revival, Snute
2014 WCS S1 - Final 8 : Alicia, Bomber, Taeja, Hyun, Polt, Revival, Oz, Arthur
2014 WCS S2 - Final 8 : Heart, viOLet, Alicia, Bomber, Polt, HyuN, Taeja, Pigbaby
2014 WCS S3 - Final 8: Scarlett, Heart, HyuN, HuK, Bomber, Pigbaby, Polt, HerO (no NA players in Ro4)
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On March 30 2018 05:45 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it. Most of the WCS EU koreans didn't live in korea. Denying the similarity of foreigners playing in GSL to koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. It's exactly the same There is some similarity, but all foreigners except Scarlett in recent years have ben stopped at the ro32. In WCS EU/AM, there were consistently around 6/8 or 5/8 foreigners Koreans in WCS EU and 7/8 to 8/8 Koreans in WCS AM. To say that the two situations are the same is not really accurate. One the one hand, you have the Koreans taking an large portion of the WCS EU/AM prize pool for 6 competitions, and on the other hand, you have a couple of foreigners having no success for three years and taking a small portion of the overall prize pool and then Scarlett's success in the ro8. To deny the difference between the two situations is wrong, but to say that the situations are exactly the same is also quite wrong.
The only difference in what you said is that Koreans are better--and being persecuted just for being better is exactly what a lot of people are pissed about.
And TRUE isn't even better, he's just persecuted.
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On March 30 2018 05:40 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 05:02 Solar424 wrote:On March 30 2018 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it. Most of the WCS EU koreans didn't live in korea. Denying the similarity of foreigners playing in GSL to koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. It's exactly the same And the EU scene didn't completely die as a result, since players like ForGG, Mvp, and MC were playing on ladder and giving EU players good practice. Meanwhile the WCS NA Ro16 was 2-3 foreigners and the rest were Koreans flying over for the week, getting rid of any chance of a scene developing. Yes, and currently foreigners are killing the Korean scene. KeSPA teams are no more, only the last man standing are JAGW. Players have to win GSL for money. Low tier players are robbed by foreigner hopes. It seems only fair to either disband the region lock for all OR lock the players OR lock the GSL. This way all the foreign hopes cannot live in Korea and travel into WCS EXACTLY AS YOU DESCRIBED.
How exactly are foreigners killing the Korean scene? KeSPA dropped SC2 before any foreigners qualified for Code S, and there was a distinct lack of Koreans retiring over the offseason, like we have seen in years past. New talent like Dandy and eMotion are coming into the scene despite the foreigners "stealing their money", upseating old favorites like herO, and players like MMA, SuperNova, and PartinG are coming back. If anything, the Korean scene has gotten healthier since foreigners arrived.
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Personally I have nothing to discuss with people defending a system based on racial discrimination.
You made a point pvsnp !
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This is contemptible discrimination.
Remember that Scarlett didn't even qualify for IEM Pyeongchang, but WCS bent the rules to allow him and Special to go? That shows that rules aren't made to screw people like TRUE over. They're made to bring light to common sense.
Use common sense. Let <foreigner> TRUE advance in GSL, until he crashes. Then, let <foreigner> TRUE do the rest of the WCS stuff Special and Scarlett also do.
Stop jingoism.
Also: You don't EVER enforce rules post-facto. EVER. That's not the spirit of civilization.
User was warned for this post
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I think it's pretty obvious that the lock will end up going both ways at the end of this. I imagine Blizzard and afreeca kept the window open because they knew how hype people get about foreigners in GSL, but ultimately it isn't fair. I don't see how removing all locks will help the longevity of the scene either. So full on locks it is.
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So jjakji will get this spot, or whats going to happen if he decides not to play in GSL.
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blizzard is a fucking joke.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 30 2018 05:48 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 05:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 30 2018 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it. Most of the WCS EU koreans didn't live in korea. Denying the similarity of foreigners playing in GSL to koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. It's exactly the same There is some similarity, but all foreigners except Scarlett in recent years have ben stopped at the ro32. In WCS EU/AM, there were consistently around 6/8 or 5/8 foreigners Koreans in WCS EU and 7/8 to 8/8 Koreans in WCS AM. To say that the two situations are the same is not really accurate. One the one hand, you have the Koreans taking an large portion of the WCS EU/AM prize pool for 6 competitions, and on the other hand, you have a couple of foreigners having no success for three years and taking a small portion of the overall prize pool and then Scarlett's success in the ro8. To deny the difference between the two situations is wrong, but to say that the situations are exactly the same is also quite wrong. The only difference in what you said is that Koreans are better--and being persecuted just for being better is exactly what a lot of people are pissed about. And TRUE isn't even better, he's just persecuted.
If they are better, then the region lock is necessary for the health of the scene. But being better is a very big and very legitimate reason for separating the regions. It just happens that the regions separated are Korean. If there was another nation equally as good as Korea, then that region would be separated.
This brings in what I've been saying, separate the players ability to play cross region based on skill. The Neebs and Scarletts wouldn't be able to play in GSL, but the Marus and Stats wouldn't be able to play in WCS.
I agree about TRUE, that that he should be allowed to play.
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d3ad gam3
User was warned for this post
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Stop warning/banning people. Sick and tired of Blizzard. Greedy corp. Double standards.
I'll never been watch WCS again.
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On March 30 2018 09:43 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 05:48 pvsnp wrote:On March 30 2018 05:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 30 2018 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it. Most of the WCS EU koreans didn't live in korea. Denying the similarity of foreigners playing in GSL to koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. It's exactly the same There is some similarity, but all foreigners except Scarlett in recent years have ben stopped at the ro32. In WCS EU/AM, there were consistently around 6/8 or 5/8 foreigners Koreans in WCS EU and 7/8 to 8/8 Koreans in WCS AM. To say that the two situations are the same is not really accurate. One the one hand, you have the Koreans taking an large portion of the WCS EU/AM prize pool for 6 competitions, and on the other hand, you have a couple of foreigners having no success for three years and taking a small portion of the overall prize pool and then Scarlett's success in the ro8. To deny the difference between the two situations is wrong, but to say that the situations are exactly the same is also quite wrong. The only difference in what you said is that Koreans are better--and being persecuted just for being better is exactly what a lot of people are pissed about. And TRUE isn't even better, he's just persecuted. If they are better, then the region lock is necessary for the health of the scene. But being better is a very big and very legitimate reason for separating the regions. It just happens that the regions separated are Korean. If there was another nation equally as good as Korea, then that region would be separated. This brings in what I've been saying, separate the players ability to play cross region based on skill. The Neebs and Scarletts wouldn't be able to play in GSL, but the Marus and Stats wouldn't be able to play in WCS. I agree about TRUE, that that he should be allowed to play.
So the better you are, the less freedom you should have. Since it's hard to quantify 'goodness' in a policy, blizz chose to discriminate the nation rather than discriminate the good.
Being good is evil since if you are too good, you win too much. If you win too much, you destroy the scene by destroying the weak. To keep region lock in place and WCS prize pool all for themselves, foreigners must take care not to become good enough to compete with the koreans. For the weak is rewarded and the good is punished. Quite the spirit for a competitive sport.
I hope one day when Serral becomes a global juggernaut, Blizzard remembers to isolate Finland and allow him to dominate the local tournaments only.
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On March 30 2018 12:09 yangluphil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 09:43 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 30 2018 05:48 pvsnp wrote:On March 30 2018 05:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 30 2018 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it. Most of the WCS EU koreans didn't live in korea. Denying the similarity of foreigners playing in GSL to koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. It's exactly the same There is some similarity, but all foreigners except Scarlett in recent years have ben stopped at the ro32. In WCS EU/AM, there were consistently around 6/8 or 5/8 foreigners Koreans in WCS EU and 7/8 to 8/8 Koreans in WCS AM. To say that the two situations are the same is not really accurate. One the one hand, you have the Koreans taking an large portion of the WCS EU/AM prize pool for 6 competitions, and on the other hand, you have a couple of foreigners having no success for three years and taking a small portion of the overall prize pool and then Scarlett's success in the ro8. To deny the difference between the two situations is wrong, but to say that the situations are exactly the same is also quite wrong. The only difference in what you said is that Koreans are better--and being persecuted just for being better is exactly what a lot of people are pissed about. And TRUE isn't even better, he's just persecuted. If they are better, then the region lock is necessary for the health of the scene. But being better is a very big and very legitimate reason for separating the regions. It just happens that the regions separated are Korean. If there was another nation equally as good as Korea, then that region would be separated. This brings in what I've been saying, separate the players ability to play cross region based on skill. The Neebs and Scarletts wouldn't be able to play in GSL, but the Marus and Stats wouldn't be able to play in WCS. I agree about TRUE, that that he should be allowed to play. So the better you are, the less freedom you should have. Since it's hard to quantify 'goodness' in a policy, blizz chose to discriminate the nation rather than discriminate the good. Being good is evil since if you are too good, you win too much. If you win too much, you destroy the scene by destroying the weak. To keep region lock in place and WCS prize pool all for themselves, foreigners must take care not to become good enough to compete with the koreans. For the weak is rewarded and the good is punished. Quite the spirit for a competitive sport. I hope one day when Serral becomes a global juggernaut, Blizzard remembers to isolate Finland and allow him to dominate the local tournaments only. With great power comes great responsibility. Being good is good, but when you use that good, whether intentional or unintentionally, to bring harm, then you need to be put in check.
Is it truly good if only you and a select few others benefit? In this case, it is necessary that the needs of the overall scene outweigh the need of the fewer in order that full region lock be not a permanent solution.
If Canadians dominated everyone to the point of hurting the scene, I would advocate for locking them out of a certain number of numbers.
It is not that the weak are being rewarded for being but that without this help, only a few could escape being weak, and the overall system would fall.
And because the Korean system is held up by the foreign scene, the collapse of the foreign scene would bring the collapse of the Korean scene.
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On March 30 2018 12:09 yangluphil wrote:So the better you are, the less freedom you should have. Since it's hard to quantify 'goodness' in a policy, blizz chose to discriminate the nation rather than discriminate the good.
Being good is evil since if you are too good, you win too much. If you win too much, you destroy the scene by destroying the weak. To keep region lock in place and WCS prize pool all for themselves, foreigners must take care not to become good enough to compete with the koreans. For the weak is rewarded and the good is punished. Quite the spirit for a competitive sport.
I hope one day when Serral becomes a global juggernaut, Blizzard remembers to isolate Finland and allow him to dominate the local tournaments only.
Let's compare this to the structure of most Olympic sports. Every Olympic event is region-locked by country. Countries that may not have any chance of winning still are given opportunities. The reason is they want to foster and promote sports in every country, by giving people in every country something achievable they can aspire to so that maybe someday they will be more competitive. How popular do you think the Olympics would be if 80% of athletes were all from one country?
Blizzard made a big mistake, yes. But the mistake was they made the region lock one sided, not that the region lock exists.
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On March 30 2018 14:22 Kalera wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 12:09 yangluphil wrote:So the better you are, the less freedom you should have. Since it's hard to quantify 'goodness' in a policy, blizz chose to discriminate the nation rather than discriminate the good.
Being good is evil since if you are too good, you win too much. If you win too much, you destroy the scene by destroying the weak. To keep region lock in place and WCS prize pool all for themselves, foreigners must take care not to become good enough to compete with the koreans. For the weak is rewarded and the good is punished. Quite the spirit for a competitive sport.
I hope one day when Serral becomes a global juggernaut, Blizzard remembers to isolate Finland and allow him to dominate the local tournaments only. Let's compare this to the structure of most Olympic sports. Every Olympic event is region-locked by country. Countries that may not have any chance of winning still are given opportunities. The reason is they want to foster and promote sports in every country, by giving people in every country something achievable they can aspire to so that maybe someday they will be more competitive. How popular do you think the Olympics would be if 80% of athletes were all from one country? Blizzard made a big mistake, yes. But the mistake was they made the region lock one sided, not that the region lock exists.
The olympics are once every 4 years and are designed to be a representative event for EVERY sport in the world at the same time.
NHL, NBA all major Soccer and Baseball leagues all of the Tennis tournaments, all of the Golf Tournaments, ALL of the major fighting and boxing sports.
NONE OF THOSE are region locked.
If you want to cherry pick JUST the olympics to make your point then your argument is weak.
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On March 30 2018 16:03 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 14:22 Kalera wrote:On March 30 2018 12:09 yangluphil wrote:So the better you are, the less freedom you should have. Since it's hard to quantify 'goodness' in a policy, blizz chose to discriminate the nation rather than discriminate the good.
Being good is evil since if you are too good, you win too much. If you win too much, you destroy the scene by destroying the weak. To keep region lock in place and WCS prize pool all for themselves, foreigners must take care not to become good enough to compete with the koreans. For the weak is rewarded and the good is punished. Quite the spirit for a competitive sport.
I hope one day when Serral becomes a global juggernaut, Blizzard remembers to isolate Finland and allow him to dominate the local tournaments only. Let's compare this to the structure of most Olympic sports. Every Olympic event is region-locked by country. Countries that may not have any chance of winning still are given opportunities. The reason is they want to foster and promote sports in every country, by giving people in every country something achievable they can aspire to so that maybe someday they will be more competitive. How popular do you think the Olympics would be if 80% of athletes were all from one country? Blizzard made a big mistake, yes. But the mistake was they made the region lock one sided, not that the region lock exists. The olympics are once every 4 years and are designed to be a representative event for EVERY sport in the world at the same time. NHL, NBA all major Soccer and Baseball leagues all of the Tennis tournaments, all of the Golf Tournaments, ALL of the major fighting and boxing sports. NONE OF THOSE are region locked. If you want to cherry pick JUST the olympics to make your point then your argument is weak.
Those analogies are just as false though. Most established sports have lower leagues that are effectively region locked to foster local growth, whereas Starcraft doesn't have that sort of depth to the scene.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50324 Posts
On March 30 2018 12:08 engesser1 wrote:
Stop warning/banning people. Sick and tired of Blizzard. Greedy corp. Double standards.
I'll never been watch WCS again.
if you have an issue with moderation in this thread then please direct it to website feeback
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Blizzard is great at making games... their pedigree is game making.
Blizzard is not very good at running and administrating organized competitive leagues. They never have been very good at it. This is another symptom of their mediocre performance as Competitive League Admins.
On March 30 2018 16:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
NHL, NBA all major Soccer and Baseball leagues all of the Tennis tournaments, all of the Golf Tournaments, ALL of the major fighting and boxing sports.
NONE OF THOSE are region locked.
If you want to cherry pick JUST the olympics to make your point then your argument is weak.
Until 1989 the NBA, NHL, and MLB never had Russians and other Soviet-bloc nationals in it.
The Canadian Football League only permits so many non-Canadians on a team's roster.
German hockey leagues only permit a certain # of foreign players per team.
Pretty sure Israeli basketball and other European basketball leagues have rules about how many non-natives can be on a roster.
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what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far.
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United States33429 Posts
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On March 30 2018 09:43 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 05:48 pvsnp wrote:On March 30 2018 05:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 30 2018 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it. Most of the WCS EU koreans didn't live in korea. Denying the similarity of foreigners playing in GSL to koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. It's exactly the same There is some similarity, but all foreigners except Scarlett in recent years have ben stopped at the ro32. In WCS EU/AM, there were consistently around 6/8 or 5/8 foreigners Koreans in WCS EU and 7/8 to 8/8 Koreans in WCS AM. To say that the two situations are the same is not really accurate. One the one hand, you have the Koreans taking an large portion of the WCS EU/AM prize pool for 6 competitions, and on the other hand, you have a couple of foreigners having no success for three years and taking a small portion of the overall prize pool and then Scarlett's success in the ro8. To deny the difference between the two situations is wrong, but to say that the situations are exactly the same is also quite wrong. The only difference in what you said is that Koreans are better--and being persecuted just for being better is exactly what a lot of people are pissed about. And TRUE isn't even better, he's just persecuted. If they are better, then the region lock is necessary for the health of the scene. But being better is a very big and very legitimate reason for separating the regions. It just happens that the regions separated are Korean. If there was another nation equally as good as Korea, then that region would be separated. This brings in what I've been saying, separate the players ability to play cross region based on skill. The Neebs and Scarletts wouldn't be able to play in GSL, but the Marus and Stats wouldn't be able to play in WCS. I agree about TRUE, that that he should be allowed to play.
There are obvious differences between them, and a lot of history behind those distinctions. I guess separate but equal makes a lot of sense given the situation. I wonder why no one has ever thought of such a system before?
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far.
Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership?
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Why the warning ?
personnaly i was against Blizzard rules even before Truegate, I'd really prefer a full region lock
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United States33429 Posts
On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership?
Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans?
On March 30 2018 17:26 Mun_Su wrote:
Why the warning ?
He edited in "1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit" into the OP (which I edited out), which is a really problematic simplification. I don't think OP's should be editorialized to begin with, let alone that poorly.
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On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans?
I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan
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I'll never understand the comparisons to team sports. It's a 1vs1 competition, if anything compare it to tennis...
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On March 30 2018 18:17 HsDLTitich wrote:
I'll never understand the comparisons to team sports. It's a 1vs1 competition, if anything compare it to tennis...
Tennis is actually the perfect comparision: expensive to get into (had to buy the game every 2 or 3 years), not very popular, with pretentious audience who think they are better than in the popular competitions.
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United States33429 Posts
On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan
Are you opposed to region lock even if it allows (hypothetically, again) Korean players to play for longer in a more well-funded scene, at the cost of some blatant discrimination? This isn't to say I necessarily agree or disagree with you—I'm just curious where the break points for compromising on ideology are for you (if such points exist at all).
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On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan
Well, is affirmative action discrimination? Im asking, since this is pretty much exactly the same. Its unearned bias towards the weaker community, making rules that help out those who are more vulnerable, give a better chance for those who wouldnt have it, if it was based only on merit.
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On March 30 2018 18:22 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 18:17 HsDLTitich wrote:
I'll never understand the comparisons to team sports. It's a 1vs1 competition, if anything compare it to tennis... Tennis is actually the perfect comparision: expensive to get into (had to buy the game every 2 or 3 years), not very popular, with pretentious audience who think they are better than in the popular competitions.
Isn't tennis discriminating ? same price pool than men, while being weaker, which mean that a top 20 men, who could be top 1 if playing with woman, will not be able to win anything since the top 5 or 10 men is so strong. 
(yes that was a troll and I accept my punishment)
On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:He edited in "1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit" into the OP (which I edited out), which is a really problematic simplification. I don't think OP's should be editorialized to begin with, let alone that poorly.
Okay thanks for clearing that out.
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On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? He edited in "1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit" into the OP (which I edited out), which is a really problematic simplification. I don't think OP's should be editorialized to begin with, let alone that poorly.
What do you mean by editorialized?
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On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan
the IIHF created rules in women's hockey making it unfair against the US and Canada to get other countries good at women's hockey. The difference between Canada/USA and the world was huge... similar to the difference between Korea and the rest of the world in SC2.
its taken 10+ years but these unfair rules are working and Finland and Sweden are producing a few world class players and are actually a semi-threat to Canada and the USA. Had the IIHF not done this women's hockey probably would not be an Olympic sport.
I'd say Blizzard's failure is not in the creation of an unfair playing field. That is not the failure. Their failure occurs with this unfair playing field producing tangible results. It has produced such a tiny # of world class non-Koreans. Blizzard's failure is that they are forced to continue with this unfair playing field for the indefinite future with no end in sight.
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Keep it the way it is. It's pretty clear that it is working great. True can't cherry pick what he wants to play in. He should just move back to Korea if he wants to play in the GSL. Suddenly he qualifies for something in Korea and now he thinks he is a scape goat.
Think about all the cash he has been racking in through the WCS format this past while that he would not have made in Korea. Thank goodness there hasn't been more of him or they would destroy the earnings potential of the WCS NA and EU like back in 2013 and 2014.
True is blaming the system now that he can't rack in more cash because he is a 'special' case.
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Europe was pretty strong when koreans were living and laddering here tho
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On March 30 2018 22:04 AbouSV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? On March 30 2018 17:26 Mun_Su wrote:
Why the warning ?
He edited in "1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit" into the OP (which I edited out), which is a really problematic simplification. I don't think OP's should be editorialized to begin with, let alone that poorly. What do you mean by editorialized?
I think it's because the news is featured in TeamLiquidnews so they have to keep it neutral.
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On March 30 2018 18:22 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan Are you opposed to region lock even if it allows (hypothetically, again) Korean players to play for longer in a more well-funded scene, at the cost of some blatant discrimination? This isn't to say I necessarily agree or disagree with you—I'm just curious where the break points for compromising on ideology are for you (if such points exist at all).
Yes just because it would feel morally wrong.
I'd rather follow a smaller scene where I can enjoy the competition without the knowledge that it's build on an unfair system.
This may sound harsh but when the esports scene isn't able to exist in its current size with a fair system then it doesn't deserve to exist this big and should be downsized instead.
Which wouldn't be the end of the world since there are small scenes that are still extremely fun to follow.
Ofc purely hypothetical as I don't believe removing regionlock/making it both ways would decrease viewership at all.
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On March 31 2018 01:29 Charoisaur wrote:
Yes just because it would feel morally wrong.
I'd rather follow a smaller scene where I can enjoy the competition without the knowledge that it's build on an unfair system.
This may sound harsh but when the esports scene isn't able to exist in its current size with a fair system then it doesn't deserve to exist this big and should be downsized instead.
nah, if Blizzard wants to prop up the scene with money that doesn't come from ticket holders and viewers and create all kinds of weird rules i say.... let 'em.
The guys who owned the UFC did that for 10+ years while it continued to bleed tens of millions of dollars. Whatever fighter was fighting in his home country had a distinct advantage over his foreign opponent because he knew the local combat sports rule-set better than his opponent. There were no universal rules.
On March 31 2018 01:29 Charoisaur wrote:
Yes just because it would feel morally wrong.
its not "morally wrong". its not a question of morality. these companies are creating contests and giving away money for entertainment purposes. if it takes a bizarre rule-set to entertain people ... so be it.
this stuff is really not in the realm of morality.
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On March 30 2018 18:38 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan Well, is affirmative action discrimination?
Abso-fucking-lutely.
There are lots of ways in which it is "justified" and whether you buy those reasons or not is your own personal opinion and there is no point in arguing about it, but the fact remains that it is the very definition of discrimination.
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On March 31 2018 02:42 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 18:38 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan Well, is affirmative action discrimination? Abso-fucking-lutely. There are lots of ways in which it is "justified" and whether you buy those reasons or not is your own personal opinion and there is no point in arguing about it, but the fact remains that it is the very definition of discrimination.
Are you guys serious right now?
Besides the fact that jumping into an affirmative action discussion is DEFINITELY going to get this thread closed, this isn't even remotely a comparable thing at all.
Affirmative action is an attempt to counter the people that would normally be biased in their hiring due to racist stereotypes. It's a response TO racism, not racism itself.
Regionlocking is the exact opposite. No regionlocking means everything is open to everyone, regionlocking is prohibitive to people based on things that have nothing to do with their ability in the game.
They are literally EXACT opposites of each other.
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On March 31 2018 03:14 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2018 02:42 Jealous wrote:On March 30 2018 18:38 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan Well, is affirmative action discrimination? Abso-fucking-lutely. There are lots of ways in which it is "justified" and whether you buy those reasons or not is your own personal opinion and there is no point in arguing about it, but the fact remains that it is the very definition of discrimination. Are you guys serious right now? Besides the fact that jumping into an affirmative action discussion is DEFINITELY going to get this thread closed, this isn't even remotely a comparable thing at all. Affirmative action is an attempt to counter the people that would normally be biased in their hiring due to racist stereotypes. It's a response TO racism, not racism itself. Regionlocking is the exact opposite. No regionlocking means everything is open to everyone, regionlocking is prohibitive to people based on things that have nothing to do with their ability in the game. They are literally EXACT opposites of each other.
maybe we dont mean exactly the same by that expression. I wasnt referring to the "countering racism" aspect rather than beside ensuring equality of opportunity, applying some rules or quotas with which one tries to reach a specific result, say at least one foreigner in top 8/top4 etc.. I admit it s not a term much used in my region/language, so I can accept the idea that i might have used it incorrectly, tho i do not think so
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TRUE chose GSL, but if he leaves Korea after the Ro32 he can still play in the open bracket of WCS Austin.
Blizzard will also be reviewing region-lock for 2019:
"We are aware that, especially in 2018, there have been some unintended consequences stemming from WCS residency rules, and we will be reviewing them to see what will work best for 2019."
Source: https://wcs.starcraft2.com/en-us/news/21676853/TRUE-Chooses-GSL-over-Challenger-/
Edit: Added to OP
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Ah well, at least they are going to be reviewing things. I wonder if they would've reviewed things for this year if TRUE had made it through the qualifiers last year.
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United States33429 Posts
Sooo the angry mob won? Do we pop champagne and celebrate?
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On March 31 2018 12:56 Waxangel wrote:
Sooo the angry mob won? Do we pop champagne and celebrate?
yes yes the mob will replace its pitchforks and torches with Champagne and Champagne Glasses
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I think we store the pitchforks until next year when we don't like the new region lock system.
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Tbh I'm surprised Blizzard even listened to the mob. Obviously region-lock is still a thing in the foreseeable future, and I have my doubts about their promised review, but I am still surprised that they even bothered to throw a bone to the mob.
People have been complaining about region-lock for years and Blizzard has barely said a word. Maybe this is a good sign?
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On March 31 2018 12:56 Waxangel wrote:
Sooo the angry mob won? Do we pop champagne and celebrate?
I did that already since Ret is coming back to sc2, but regarding this topic I would wait until after the review of the residency rules.
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Lol at people making racist accusations. If blizzard was racist against Koreans they wouldn't even sponsor GSL, let alone let MaSa and TRUE play in WCS, not to mention all the other east asians from China Taiwan Japan etc have no problem playing in WCS (or double dipping in GSL)
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On March 31 2018 12:56 Waxangel wrote:
Do we pop champagne and celebrate?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QMis6hU.gif)
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lol people really can come up with all sorts of justifications for region lock. I can understand if you say it was a wrong thing that had to be done. It's another trying to justify it and think it should continue existing.
Angry mob? Condescending much? Disappointing mob, get off the horses. Or press more ban/warn buttons.
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On April 01 2018 06:02 yangluphil wrote:
lol people really can come up with all sorts of justifications for region lock. I can understand if you say it was a wrong thing that had to be done. It's another trying to justify it and think it should continue existing.
Angry mob? Condescending much? Disappointing mob, get off the horses. Or press more ban/warn buttons.
It depends on your point of view. I'm interested in the survival of the entire Starcraft 2 scene, and so I believe that region lock was the right thing that needed to happen.
I don't think that region lock is an entirely good thing or an entirely bad thing either, and I would disagree with people who say that it is one or the other.
And for a while, it worked fine as foreigners didn't make it in the Korean tournaments, and of course, Koreans couldn't participate in WCS. Because of how Korea runs their tournaments, they essentially have a soft regionlock on their tournaments, and you didn't see many foreigners living in Korea and trying out. But now, because of shrinkage as well as the foreign scene having definitely improved, this form of region lock no longer works.
Removing the region lock is an acknowledgement that the Korean scene is equivalent or near equivalent to the other regions, but this is not the case at all. The very fact that people come and train in Korea proves that the region is stronger. Therefore, the regions cannot be treated equally.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 01 2018 06:51 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2018 06:02 yangluphil wrote:
lol people really can come up with all sorts of justifications for region lock. I can understand if you say it was a wrong thing that had to be done. It's another trying to justify it and think it should continue existing.
Angry mob? Condescending much? Disappointing mob, get off the horses. Or press more ban/warn buttons. It depends on your point of view. I'm interested in the survival of the entire Starcraft 2 scene, and so I believe that region lock was the right thing that needed to happen. I don't think that region lock is an entirely good thing or an entirely bad thing either, and I would disagree with people who say that it is one or the other. And for a while, it worked fine as foreigners didn't make it in the Korean tournaments, and of course, Koreans couldn't participate in WCS. Because of how Korea runs their tournaments, they essentially have a soft regionlock on their tournaments, and you didn't see many foreigners living in Korea and trying out. But now, because of shrinkage as well as the foreign scene having definitely improved, this form of region lock no longer works. Removing the region lock is an acknowledgement that the Korean scene is equivalent or near equivalent to the other regions, but this is not the case at all. The very fact that people come and train in Korea proves that the region is stronger. Therefore, the regions cannot be treated equally.
Yeah, but new and lower tier players don't have much sources of income compared to foreigners with their WCS. So taking money of THESE players is wrong as it hurts Korean scene in the long term. Sure, nowadays we still have the old guard, but there's the threat of the military service over every head and it's getting bigger each year.
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On April 01 2018 06:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2018 06:51 FrkFrJss wrote:On April 01 2018 06:02 yangluphil wrote:
lol people really can come up with all sorts of justifications for region lock. I can understand if you say it was a wrong thing that had to be done. It's another trying to justify it and think it should continue existing.
Angry mob? Condescending much? Disappointing mob, get off the horses. Or press more ban/warn buttons. It depends on your point of view. I'm interested in the survival of the entire Starcraft 2 scene, and so I believe that region lock was the right thing that needed to happen. I don't think that region lock is an entirely good thing or an entirely bad thing either, and I would disagree with people who say that it is one or the other. And for a while, it worked fine as foreigners didn't make it in the Korean tournaments, and of course, Koreans couldn't participate in WCS. Because of how Korea runs their tournaments, they essentially have a soft regionlock on their tournaments, and you didn't see many foreigners living in Korea and trying out. But now, because of shrinkage as well as the foreign scene having definitely improved, this form of region lock no longer works. Removing the region lock is an acknowledgement that the Korean scene is equivalent or near equivalent to the other regions, but this is not the case at all. The very fact that people come and train in Korea proves that the region is stronger. Therefore, the regions cannot be treated equally. Yeah, but new and lower tier players don't have much sources of income compared to foreigners with their WCS. So taking money of THESE players is wrong as it hurts Korean scene in the long term. Sure, nowadays we still have the old guard, but there's the threat of the military service over every head and it's getting bigger each year.
I totally agree, and that's why we need tiered region lock now. Based on the number of points you earned in a previous season, you either can or cannot play in WCS or GSL or both. Keep the point threshold low enough in Korea that a good Korean doesn't dominate in WCS but high enough that the Koreans who need that money can play in WCS.
Same with WCS. We don't need Neeb to brutalize Code A Koreans to show how good he is. However, players like Zanster are like ro32/ro16 WCS, and so letting him compete is not that bad.
EDIT: and if we're worried about players not living in the WCS regions and contributing to the scene, say that they have need to live in the region they're playing in but with fewer visa restrictions (so like a visitor's visa) and perhaps help establish a team home in the US or EU so that Koreans can live in the region that they're competing.
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On March 31 2018 13:55 pvsnp wrote:
Tbh I'm surprised Blizzard even listened to the mob. Obviously region-lock is still a thing in the foreseeable future, and I have my doubts about their promised review, but I am still surprised that they even bothered to throw a bone to the mob.
People have been complaining about region-lock for years and Blizzard has barely said a word. Maybe this is a good sign?
One of the worst thing you can do as a gaming company is not listen to your players. You can see how it went real bad with EA losing billions of dollars in it's shares.
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On April 01 2018 19:51 ChemcalTribe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2018 13:55 pvsnp wrote:
Tbh I'm surprised Blizzard even listened to the mob. Obviously region-lock is still a thing in the foreseeable future, and I have my doubts about their promised review, but I am still surprised that they even bothered to throw a bone to the mob.
People have been complaining about region-lock for years and Blizzard has barely said a word. Maybe this is a good sign? One of the worst thing you can do as a gaming company is not listen to your players. You can see how it went real bad with EA losing billions of dollars in it's shares.
what did EA ?
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On April 01 2018 19:51 ChemcalTribe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2018 13:55 pvsnp wrote:
Tbh I'm surprised Blizzard even listened to the mob. Obviously region-lock is still a thing in the foreseeable future, and I have my doubts about their promised review, but I am still surprised that they even bothered to throw a bone to the mob.
People have been complaining about region-lock for years and Blizzard has barely said a word. Maybe this is a good sign? One of the worst thing you can do as a gaming company is not listen to your players. You can see how it went real bad with EA losing billions of dollars in it's shares.
If you're talking about the November dip, it doesn't look like it hurt them in the long run.
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User was warned for this post
Huh?
Sucks for TRUE. I was looking forward to seeing him in both.
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On April 01 2018 19:51 ChemcalTribe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2018 13:55 pvsnp wrote:
Tbh I'm surprised Blizzard even listened to the mob. Obviously region-lock is still a thing in the foreseeable future, and I have my doubts about their promised review, but I am still surprised that they even bothered to throw a bone to the mob.
People have been complaining about region-lock for years and Blizzard has barely said a word. Maybe this is a good sign? One of the worst thing you can do as a gaming company is not listen to your players. You can see how it went real bad with EA losing billions of dollars in it's shares.
Stock prices going down in the short term has no real effect on a company. Stockholders will put pressure on the company to improve, but the company does not actually lose money when this happens.
In any case, I expect there will be a number of changes for next year as the Korean scene slowly declines. Since it looks like SSL is gone, I hope Blizzard tries to supplement the scene somehow.
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The solution to region locking is simple. Make it so only Korean Terrans cannot play WCS and foreign Zergs cannot play in GSL.
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EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/QkKOxhA.png)
