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On March 30 2018 09:43 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 05:48 pvsnp wrote:On March 30 2018 05:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On March 30 2018 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 03:43 Solar424 wrote:
Comparing foreigners playing in GSL to Koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. The foreigners playing in GSL are actually living in Korea. The Koreans in WCS were living in Korea, playing the Ro32 online, flying over for the Ro16 and playoffs, and making it so no one outside of Scarlett could make a living playing the game in NA. If the region lock were removed it would make Code S a farce, with basically anyone who signed up qualifying with the amount of Koreans who would choose to play in WCS rather than GSL. It would basically be a bunch of teamless Koreans getting their skulls bashed in by Maru, Dark, and Zest every season until the Ro8. Maybe with how few full-time Koreans that are left and how few of them have teams the impact on the foreign scene would be less than in 2013-2014, but I doubt it. Most of the WCS EU koreans didn't live in korea. Denying the similarity of foreigners playing in GSL to koreans playing in WCS is laughable at best. It's exactly the same There is some similarity, but all foreigners except Scarlett in recent years have ben stopped at the ro32. In WCS EU/AM, there were consistently around 6/8 or 5/8 foreigners Koreans in WCS EU and 7/8 to 8/8 Koreans in WCS AM. To say that the two situations are the same is not really accurate. One the one hand, you have the Koreans taking an large portion of the WCS EU/AM prize pool for 6 competitions, and on the other hand, you have a couple of foreigners having no success for three years and taking a small portion of the overall prize pool and then Scarlett's success in the ro8. To deny the difference between the two situations is wrong, but to say that the situations are exactly the same is also quite wrong. The only difference in what you said is that Koreans are better--and being persecuted just for being better is exactly what a lot of people are pissed about. And TRUE isn't even better, he's just persecuted. If they are better, then the region lock is necessary for the health of the scene. But being better is a very big and very legitimate reason for separating the regions. It just happens that the regions separated are Korean. If there was another nation equally as good as Korea, then that region would be separated. This brings in what I've been saying, separate the players ability to play cross region based on skill. The Neebs and Scarletts wouldn't be able to play in GSL, but the Marus and Stats wouldn't be able to play in WCS. I agree about TRUE, that that he should be allowed to play.
There are obvious differences between them, and a lot of history behind those distinctions. I guess separate but equal makes a lot of sense given the situation. I wonder why no one has ever thought of such a system before?
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On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far.
Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership?
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On March 29 2018 16:28 pvsnp wrote:
Update:
Wax shut down the other thread for getting off topic, and suggested that a new one be created for this topic.
This is the tweet that started it:
User was warned for this post
Why the warning ?
personnaly i was against Blizzard rules even before Truegate, I'd really prefer a full region lock
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United States33552 Posts
On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership?
Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans?
On March 30 2018 17:26 Mun_Su wrote:
Why the warning ?
He edited in "1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit" into the OP (which I edited out), which is a really problematic simplification. I don't think OP's should be editorialized to begin with, let alone that poorly.
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On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans?
I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan
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I'll never understand the comparisons to team sports. It's a 1vs1 competition, if anything compare it to tennis...
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On March 30 2018 18:17 HsDLTitich wrote:
I'll never understand the comparisons to team sports. It's a 1vs1 competition, if anything compare it to tennis...
Tennis is actually the perfect comparision: expensive to get into (had to buy the game every 2 or 3 years), not very popular, with pretentious audience who think they are better than in the popular competitions.
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United States33552 Posts
On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan
Are you opposed to region lock even if it allows (hypothetically, again) Korean players to play for longer in a more well-funded scene, at the cost of some blatant discrimination? This isn't to say I necessarily agree or disagree with you—I'm just curious where the break points for compromising on ideology are for you (if such points exist at all).
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On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan
Well, is affirmative action discrimination? Im asking, since this is pretty much exactly the same. Its unearned bias towards the weaker community, making rules that help out those who are more vulnerable, give a better chance for those who wouldnt have it, if it was based only on merit.
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On March 30 2018 18:22 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 18:17 HsDLTitich wrote:
I'll never understand the comparisons to team sports. It's a 1vs1 competition, if anything compare it to tennis... Tennis is actually the perfect comparision: expensive to get into (had to buy the game every 2 or 3 years), not very popular, with pretentious audience who think they are better than in the popular competitions.
Isn't tennis discriminating ? same price pool than men, while being weaker, which mean that a top 20 men, who could be top 1 if playing with woman, will not be able to win anything since the top 5 or 10 men is so strong. 
(yes that was a troll and I accept my punishment)
On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:He edited in "1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit" into the OP (which I edited out), which is a really problematic simplification. I don't think OP's should be editorialized to begin with, let alone that poorly.
Okay thanks for clearing that out.
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On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? He edited in "1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit" into the OP (which I edited out), which is a really problematic simplification. I don't think OP's should be editorialized to begin with, let alone that poorly.
What do you mean by editorialized?
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On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan
the IIHF created rules in women's hockey making it unfair against the US and Canada to get other countries good at women's hockey. The difference between Canada/USA and the world was huge... similar to the difference between Korea and the rest of the world in SC2.
its taken 10+ years but these unfair rules are working and Finland and Sweden are producing a few world class players and are actually a semi-threat to Canada and the USA. Had the IIHF not done this women's hockey probably would not be an Olympic sport.
I'd say Blizzard's failure is not in the creation of an unfair playing field. That is not the failure. Their failure occurs with this unfair playing field producing tangible results. It has produced such a tiny # of world class non-Koreans. Blizzard's failure is that they are forced to continue with this unfair playing field for the indefinite future with no end in sight.
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Keep it the way it is. It's pretty clear that it is working great. True can't cherry pick what he wants to play in. He should just move back to Korea if he wants to play in the GSL. Suddenly he qualifies for something in Korea and now he thinks he is a scape goat.
Think about all the cash he has been racking in through the WCS format this past while that he would not have made in Korea. Thank goodness there hasn't been more of him or they would destroy the earnings potential of the WCS NA and EU like back in 2013 and 2014.
True is blaming the system now that he can't rack in more cash because he is a 'special' case.
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Europe was pretty strong when koreans were living and laddering here tho
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On March 30 2018 22:04 AbouSV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? On March 30 2018 17:26 Mun_Su wrote:
Why the warning ?
He edited in "1. If you were born in Korea, you can play in EITHER WCS Korea or WCS Circuit" into the OP (which I edited out), which is a really problematic simplification. I don't think OP's should be editorialized to begin with, let alone that poorly. What do you mean by editorialized?
I think it's because the news is featured in TeamLiquidnews so they have to keep it neutral.
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On March 30 2018 18:22 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan Are you opposed to region lock even if it allows (hypothetically, again) Korean players to play for longer in a more well-funded scene, at the cost of some blatant discrimination? This isn't to say I necessarily agree or disagree with you—I'm just curious where the break points for compromising on ideology are for you (if such points exist at all).
Yes just because it would feel morally wrong.
I'd rather follow a smaller scene where I can enjoy the competition without the knowledge that it's build on an unfair system.
This may sound harsh but when the esports scene isn't able to exist in its current size with a fair system then it doesn't deserve to exist this big and should be downsized instead.
Which wouldn't be the end of the world since there are small scenes that are still extremely fun to follow.
Ofc purely hypothetical as I don't believe removing regionlock/making it both ways would decrease viewership at all.
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On March 31 2018 01:29 Charoisaur wrote:
Yes just because it would feel morally wrong.
I'd rather follow a smaller scene where I can enjoy the competition without the knowledge that it's build on an unfair system.
This may sound harsh but when the esports scene isn't able to exist in its current size with a fair system then it doesn't deserve to exist this big and should be downsized instead.
nah, if Blizzard wants to prop up the scene with money that doesn't come from ticket holders and viewers and create all kinds of weird rules i say.... let 'em.
The guys who owned the UFC did that for 10+ years while it continued to bleed tens of millions of dollars. Whatever fighter was fighting in his home country had a distinct advantage over his foreign opponent because he knew the local combat sports rule-set better than his opponent. There were no universal rules.
On March 31 2018 01:29 Charoisaur wrote:
Yes just because it would feel morally wrong.
its not "morally wrong". its not a question of morality. these companies are creating contests and giving away money for entertainment purposes. if it takes a bizarre rule-set to entertain people ... so be it.
this stuff is really not in the realm of morality.
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On March 30 2018 18:38 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan Well, is affirmative action discrimination?
Abso-fucking-lutely.
There are lots of ways in which it is "justified" and whether you buy those reasons or not is your own personal opinion and there is no point in arguing about it, but the fact remains that it is the very definition of discrimination.
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On March 31 2018 02:42 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2018 18:38 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 30 2018 17:55 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 17:42 Waxangel wrote:On March 30 2018 17:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 30 2018 16:41 Geo.Rion wrote:
what Blizzard is doing is unfair, obviously, yet it s the right thing to do from a competition standpoint. If the Koreans were allowed to participate as "foreigners" in the foreign tourneys instead of the specific Korean spots (without and hindrance), then they would obviously do it.
Net viewership of the tournaments are higher this way.
If they would ban all foreigners from GSL that would be bead for the scene, and if they would let anyone participate anywhere, then foreigners would barely stand a chance to hit ro16/ ro8. The non-korean viewership is just way bigger than the Korean.
So yeah, i really hope Blizz doesnt break under the pressure, and take this blow-back and move one. People on forums tend to be really vocal about doing the right thing, and being fair, but it s actually a very small minority of the base who genuinely wants to see all Korean ro8 in every single LAN.
As for True, he knowingly chose this path, and i would say it worked out for him financially so far. Is it worth it having a blatantly unfair system for the sake of viewership? Here's a hypothetical question. If the benefits of region lock (let's just assume it's a net-benefit to StarCraft II for the sake of this question) allow Blizzard to continue the current level of support of SC2 esports for two more years, is it worth the unfairness to Koreans? I don't want the scene to exist on the basis of unfairness/discrimination. Would make me ashamed to be an SC2 esport fan Well, is affirmative action discrimination? Abso-fucking-lutely. There are lots of ways in which it is "justified" and whether you buy those reasons or not is your own personal opinion and there is no point in arguing about it, but the fact remains that it is the very definition of discrimination.
Are you guys serious right now?
Besides the fact that jumping into an affirmative action discussion is DEFINITELY going to get this thread closed, this isn't even remotely a comparable thing at all.
Affirmative action is an attempt to counter the people that would normally be biased in their hiring due to racist stereotypes. It's a response TO racism, not racism itself.
Regionlocking is the exact opposite. No regionlocking means everything is open to everyone, regionlocking is prohibitive to people based on things that have nothing to do with their ability in the game.
They are literally EXACT opposites of each other.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/QkKOxhA.png)
