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On January 21 2018 02:44 KaiserCommander wrote:
I love how people base the premise "Terran is not underpowered" in this group...
Right now on GSL :
TvP 50%
TvZ : 83%
Yeah clearly, T isn't underpowered
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On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.
Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....
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On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....
So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?
On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him
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On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him
Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape
Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.
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On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.
Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.
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On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.
I think Fango's point is the fact that double forge off a blink/charge opener with a fast 3rd is NOT a BO loss against 2 base allin. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now says something about balance.
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On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. I think Fango's point is the fact that double forge off a blink/charge opener with a fast 3rd is NOT a BO loss against 2 base allin. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now is something less than balanced.
That's nonsense. If you look at Classic's build he plays extremely greedy early on, but has everything finish, all his warp gates, 1/1, charge, to be perfectly prepared right before Maru attacks. An all-in timed a minute earlier would destroy him, but he knows what Maru's doing.
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On January 21 2018 09:48 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. I think Fango's point is the fact that double forge off a blink/charge opener with a fast 3rd is NOT a BO loss against 2 base allin. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now is something less than balanced. That's nonsense. If you look at Classic's build he plays extremely greedy early on, but has everything finish, all his warp gates, 1/1, charge, to be perfectly prepared right before Maru attacks. An all-in timed a minute earlier would destroy him, but he knows what Maru's doing.
I tuned into that series just in time to see Maru pulling his scvs and losing, so I can't tell you much about their BOs. Hence why I called it "Fango's point" instead of mine.
I assumed that Classic was using some variation on this standard PvT build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/529995-pbotw-pvt-dns-blink-pressure-into-2x-forge
Terran being more or less completely reliant on some form of allin doesn't point towards the health of the MU either.
Also, why are we still balance whining after a patch has been announced?
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On January 21 2018 09:54 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 09:48 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. I think Fango's point is the fact that double forge off a blink/charge opener with a fast 3rd is NOT a BO loss against 2 base allin. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now is something less than balanced. That's nonsense. If you look at Classic's build he plays extremely greedy early on, but has everything finish, all his warp gates, 1/1, charge, to be perfectly prepared right before Maru attacks. An all-in timed a minute earlier would destroy him, but he knows what Maru's doing. I tuned into that series just in time to see Maru pulling his scvs and losing, so I can't tell you much about their BOs. Hence why I called it "Fango's point" instead of mine. I assumed that Classic was using some variation on this standard PvT build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/529995-pbotw-pvt-dns-blink-pressure-into-2x-forgeTerran being more or less completely reliant on some form of allin doesn't point towards the health of the MU either.
iirc Classic played greedier than that with a four minute nexus, earlier forge, and a number of other differences, and Maru opened safe with concussive shells falling pretty far behind economically before going for that all-in.
Regardless of this particular example, whenever a Terran loses to Protoss people will always use the excuse of PvT being imbalanced regardless of how well the Terran played, so it's specious to rationalize top zergs losing when any top terran losing would not have received the same sort of rationalization.
edit: Hmm... Looking at that standard PvT build you linked I think Maru's build was designed to smash that since I think upgrades finish ~30 seconds later when you go for that. That's kinda neat.
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On January 21 2018 10:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 09:54 pvsnp wrote:On January 21 2018 09:48 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. I think Fango's point is the fact that double forge off a blink/charge opener with a fast 3rd is NOT a BO loss against 2 base allin. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now is something less than balanced. That's nonsense. If you look at Classic's build he plays extremely greedy early on, but has everything finish, all his warp gates, 1/1, charge, to be perfectly prepared right before Maru attacks. An all-in timed a minute earlier would destroy him, but he knows what Maru's doing. I tuned into that series just in time to see Maru pulling his scvs and losing, so I can't tell you much about their BOs. Hence why I called it "Fango's point" instead of mine. I assumed that Classic was using some variation on this standard PvT build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/529995-pbotw-pvt-dns-blink-pressure-into-2x-forgeTerran being more or less completely reliant on some form of allin doesn't point towards the health of the MU either. iirc Classic played greedier than that with a four minute nexus, and a number of other differences, and Maru opened safe with concussive shells falling pretty far behind economically before going for that all-in. Regardless of this particular example, whenever a Terran loses to Protoss people will always use the excuse of PvT being imbalanced regardless of how well the Terran played, so it's specious to rationalize top zergs losing when any top terran losing would not have received the same sort of rationalization.
That's balance politics for you. Nothing if not specious. Though it should be noted that it's not a Terran-exclusive tactic–just look at this post:
On January 21 2018 08:19 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 02:44 KaiserCommander wrote:
I love how people base the premise "Terran is not underpowered" in this group... Right now on GSL : TvP 50% TvZ : 83% Yeah clearly, T isn't underpowered
^which was made after multiple people had already pointed out that the skill differentials were huge between the players.
When the game is significantly broken, the community really does start to resemble three political parties jockeying for Blizzard's attention/favor.
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On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.
You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.
I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.
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On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin. I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.
I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. While PvT is pretty imbalanced, I don't think that game was symptomatic of anything wrong (apart from Maru presumably going for that build rather than a macro game due to the state of balance).
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On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin. I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily. I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.
If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?
In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc
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On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin. I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily. I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc
He'd already won at that point. He held the all-in easily because he was so much greedier than Maru early on and got early upgrades and production that would come in to play right before Maru attacked and then built a bunch of units
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On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin. I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily. I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc He'd already won at that point.
Classic: "Omae wa mou shindeiru"
Maru: "Nani"
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On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin. I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily. I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc He'd already won at that point.
Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.
edit: I'm not saying classics build wasn't perfect or he didn't exucute it perfectly. I'm saying his build shouldn't be something that's viable in a balanced state of the game. You can't play borderline nr20 and still hold allins
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On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin. I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily. I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc He'd already won at that point. Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.
Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool.
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Its probably been mentioned before, but the headlines keep spoiling the results 
Is there any option to hide spoilers or do I need to completely avoid Teamliquid until after I finish watching the games?
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I just rofl at people talking how terran is fine, while all zerg did was literally spam hydras with vipers, making some brood lords only once. Literally 30 minutes of mindless hydralisk spam. And game was actually close.
Even if statistics are fine, this state of the game is just very bad atm. Game design is on the floor.
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I just rofl at people talking how zerg is fine, while all terran did was literally spam tanks with hellbats, making vikings once in a while. Literally 30 minutes of mindless tank/hellbat spam. And terran won the game.
Even if statistics are fine, this state of the game is just very bad atm. Game design is on the floor.
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EPT
