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TY and Gumiho hold it down for Terran in GSL Ro32

Forum Index > SC2 General
56 CommentsPost a Reply
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TL.net ESPORTS
Profile Joined July 2011
4 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-20 14:56:41
January 20 2018 14:55 GMT
#1
With half the Round of 16 participants already decided, (T)TY, (T)GuMiho, (Z)Losira and (P)Hurricane met in Group E of the RO32 to decide who would continue their Code S dreams in 2018’s inaugural campaign.

(Wiki)2018 Global StarCraft II League Season 1


Initial match 1: Hurricane took a 1-0 lead with stalkers, void rays and a host of shield batteries before losing to a tank push in game two. Game three swung both ways, but Hurricane's gateway based army couldn't keep up with GuMiho's bio, giving the Terran a 2-1 win.

Initial match 2: Losira's ling/bane/muta style failed to overcome TY's ceaseless bio/mine/thor production in game one, while a tank heavy mech push combined with hellbat drops peeled him apart on Neon Violet Square, setting up a winner's match between TY and GuMiho.

Winners' match: GuMiho proxied two barracks on Neon Violet Square, but a single liberator from TY went uncontested, ending the game. With TY’s mech army bearing down on his main, GuMiho went for a basetrade with bio/tank in game two, but came up short, giving TY a 2-0 victory.



Losers' match: Losira won game one with a crisp hydralisk timing on Hurricane's third. He dropped the next one to tempests and dark templars despite having been ahead for much of the game, but completely shut down Hurricane's archon drops on Blackpink before closing out the series in his favor.

Decider match: GuMiho played mech every game against Losira. He won game one, but lost all his cyclones to ravagers on Odyssey. Losira took a supply lead late in game three, but didn't have the bank to recoup his losses and was ultimately eliminated, sending GuMiho to the Round of 16.



Bonus clip: In an alternate universe, this was the early contender for play of the year.


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TL+ Member
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3383 Posts
January 20 2018 15:35 GMT
#2
Hold it down for Terran lol. Terrans is most represented in ro16 so far, only Bunny didn't make it through so far.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55550 Posts
January 20 2018 16:00 GMT
#3
On January 21 2018 00:35 ejozl wrote:
Hold it down for Terran lol. Terrans is most represented in ro16 so far

Only because TY & Gumi made it
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Kaewins
Profile Joined April 2013
Bulgaria138 Posts
January 20 2018 16:32 GMT
#4
With all the talk TY did of how bad Terran is at the moment I find it a bit funny they are still winning, comfortably even.
HuTSC2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia188 Posts
January 20 2018 16:40 GMT
#5
On January 21 2018 01:32 Kaewins wrote:
With all the talk TY did of how bad Terran is at the moment I find it a bit funny they are still winning, comfortably even.


Sure, if you ignore the big skill mismatch of this group.
Myrddrael
Profile Joined November 2012
United Kingdom291 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-20 17:08:09
January 20 2018 17:07 GMT
#6
On January 21 2018 01:40 HuTSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 01:32 Kaewins wrote:
With all the talk TY did of how bad Terran is at the moment I find it a bit funny they are still winning, comfortably even.


Sure, if you ignore the big skill mismatch of this group.


And also judge the entirety of SC2 balance based off of 2 best of 3's.
Kaewins
Profile Joined April 2013
Bulgaria138 Posts
January 20 2018 17:17 GMT
#7
On January 21 2018 01:40 HuTSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 01:32 Kaewins wrote:
With all the talk TY did of how bad Terran is at the moment I find it a bit funny they are still winning, comfortably even.


Sure, if you ignore the big skill mismatch of this group.


Out of the 5 GSL groups that ran so far Terran has won 3, Protoss 1 and Zerg 1.

At some point we have to either get past the "skill mismatch" argument or I guess accept that terran players are just superior and can win despite their race being bad.

Now I'm not saying terran is alright, I'm just saying that after all the whining I expected a bit more of a dent in those korean terrans, but nope.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55550 Posts
January 20 2018 17:18 GMT
#8
And ignore the fact that the show where he did his whining was a comedy format
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15960 Posts
January 20 2018 17:39 GMT
#9
On January 21 2018 02:17 Kaewins wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 01:40 HuTSC2 wrote:
On January 21 2018 01:32 Kaewins wrote:
With all the talk TY did of how bad Terran is at the moment I find it a bit funny they are still winning, comfortably even.


Sure, if you ignore the big skill mismatch of this group.


Out of the 5 GSL groups that ran so far Terran has won 3, Protoss 1 and Zerg 1.

At some point we have to either get past the "skill mismatch" argument or I guess accept that terran players are just superior and can win despite their race being bad.

Now I'm not saying terran is alright, I'm just saying that after all the whining I expected a bit more of a dent in those korean terrans, but nope.

Right now the gap between the top koreans and the lower tier koreans is so huge that balance just doesn't matter.
Talk again when Inno/TY/Gumiho are beating players like Zest/Stats/Classic/herO/Dark/soO
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
KaiserCommander
Profile Joined April 2010
Mexico290 Posts
January 20 2018 17:44 GMT
#10
I love how people base the premise "Terran is not underpowered" in this group...
Jinro, Polt, Bomber, ForGG, MajOr, Flash, Maru. Terran Fighting...
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15960 Posts
January 20 2018 17:46 GMT
#11
Patch is basically confirmed already so balance talk right now is worthless.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
January 20 2018 17:49 GMT
#12
aLive is just in a different weight class than Rogue.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
TypeOfT
Profile Joined July 2015
14 Posts
January 20 2018 18:02 GMT
#13
We really need to drop the balance discussions, it everywhere. I don't see so much salt with flash ~80% win ratio against zerg..

Grats to TY and Gumiho, Losira gave entertaining games.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15960 Posts
January 20 2018 18:05 GMT
#14
On January 21 2018 02:49 Ej_ wrote:
aLive is just in a different weight class than Rogue.

Rogue is in the traditional post-blizzcon-slump and enjoying his $$$. Even lost to Scarlett.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
January 20 2018 18:46 GMT
#15
On January 21 2018 02:49 Ej_ wrote:
aLive is just in a different weight class than Rogue.


He was. Rogue was playing poorly
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Fleetfeet
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Canada2554 Posts
January 20 2018 18:49 GMT
#16
On January 21 2018 03:02 TypeOfT wrote:
We really need to drop the balance discussions, it everywhere. I don't see so much salt with flash ~80% win ratio against zerg..

Grats to TY and Gumiho, Losira gave entertaining games.


I agree, but it's even in the title of the thread. The "Is terran underpowered?" balance question is pervasive and pretty much seeps its way into everything. Its annoying, but until it is "answered" by a third party via a patch it doesn't feel like the question will go away.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
January 20 2018 18:58 GMT
#17
On January 21 2018 02:17 Kaewins wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 01:40 HuTSC2 wrote:
On January 21 2018 01:32 Kaewins wrote:
With all the talk TY did of how bad Terran is at the moment I find it a bit funny they are still winning, comfortably even.


Sure, if you ignore the big skill mismatch of this group.

Now I'm not saying terran is alright, I'm just saying that after all the whining I expected a bit more of a dent in those korean terrans, but nope.


If we saw TY/gumi/Inno/aLive playing against elite protosses then you probably would. sOs and Dear didn't play PvT, herO, Stats, Trap, and Classic are yet to play.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
January 20 2018 20:56 GMT
#18
Anyone using the GSL Ro32 as a balance metric for anything needs to buy some new glasses. There have been a grand total of ZERO matches between top Terrans, top Protosses, and top Zergs so far.

Inno played against Creator and Leenock
Solar got knocked out in pure ZvZ
sOs, Dear, and Byul is the closest we've had, depending on how losely "top" is defined
aLive played a Rogue slumping so hard he got knocked out in the Ro32 by a foreigner
soO and Zest are far better than Bunny
TY defeated Losira
Gumiho made it out with the worst possible record, against Hurricane and Losira

Right now, the gap between the best and the rest in Korea is far too large to be bridged by balance. The big favorites with prior championships (and soO) will almost always advance regardless of how balanced the game is.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
DomeGetta
Profile Joined February 2012
480 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-20 22:27:53
January 20 2018 22:17 GMT
#19
On January 21 2018 02:17 Kaewins wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 01:40 HuTSC2 wrote:
On January 21 2018 01:32 Kaewins wrote:
With all the talk TY did of how bad Terran is at the moment I find it a bit funny they are still winning, comfortably even.


Sure, if you ignore the big skill mismatch of this group.


Out of the 5 GSL groups that ran so far Terran has won 3, Protoss 1 and Zerg 1.

At some point we have to either get past the "skill mismatch" argument or I guess accept that terran players are just superior and can win despite their race being bad.

Now I'm not saying terran is alright, I'm just saying that after all the whining I expected a bit more of a dent in those korean terrans, but nope.



How many idiotic posts are we going to see about Tier 1 Terrans beating Tier 3 x race in ro32 will we see is the real question. Code S Champ and Top 4 Terran make it out against Losira / Hurricane while dropping maps - jaw drop shocker i guess?? Must mean balance is great.


I'll throw this out there though - the more we see mech move into the meta the less we can say terran is the hardest race to play - it becomes a lot more like the other 2 races and takes away the value of having perfect mechanics (rip byun/maru)
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
January 20 2018 23:06 GMT
#20
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.
Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
January 20 2018 23:19 GMT
#21
On January 21 2018 02:44 KaiserCommander wrote:
I love how people base the premise "Terran is not underpowered" in this group...

Right now on GSL :
TvP 50%
TvZ : 83%

Yeah clearly, T isn't underpowered
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
January 20 2018 23:47 GMT
#22
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
January 20 2018 23:56 GMT
#23
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him


Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 00:21:59
January 21 2018 00:21 GMT
#24
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

Show nested quote +
On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 00:38:14
January 21 2018 00:29 GMT
#25
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 00:45:41
January 21 2018 00:43 GMT
#26
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.

I think Fango's point is the fact that double forge off a blink/charge opener with a fast 3rd is NOT a BO loss against 2 base allin. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now says something about balance.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
January 21 2018 00:48 GMT
#27
On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.

I think Fango's point is the fact that double forge off a blink/charge opener with a fast 3rd is NOT a BO loss against 2 base allin. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now is something less than balanced.


That's nonsense. If you look at Classic's build he plays extremely greedy early on, but has everything finish, all his warp gates, 1/1, charge, to be perfectly prepared right before Maru attacks. An all-in timed a minute earlier would destroy him, but he knows what Maru's doing.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 00:57:16
January 21 2018 00:54 GMT
#28
On January 21 2018 09:48 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.

I think Fango's point is the fact that double forge off a blink/charge opener with a fast 3rd is NOT a BO loss against 2 base allin. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now is something less than balanced.


That's nonsense. If you look at Classic's build he plays extremely greedy early on, but has everything finish, all his warp gates, 1/1, charge, to be perfectly prepared right before Maru attacks. An all-in timed a minute earlier would destroy him, but he knows what Maru's doing.

I tuned into that series just in time to see Maru pulling his scvs and losing, so I can't tell you much about their BOs. Hence why I called it "Fango's point" instead of mine.

I assumed that Classic was using some variation on this standard PvT build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/529995-pbotw-pvt-dns-blink-pressure-into-2x-forge

Terran being more or less completely reliant on some form of allin doesn't point towards the health of the MU either.

Also, why are we still balance whining after a patch has been announced?
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 01:10:54
January 21 2018 01:03 GMT
#29
On January 21 2018 09:54 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 09:48 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.

I think Fango's point is the fact that double forge off a blink/charge opener with a fast 3rd is NOT a BO loss against 2 base allin. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now is something less than balanced.


That's nonsense. If you look at Classic's build he plays extremely greedy early on, but has everything finish, all his warp gates, 1/1, charge, to be perfectly prepared right before Maru attacks. An all-in timed a minute earlier would destroy him, but he knows what Maru's doing.

I tuned into that series just in time to see Maru pulling his scvs and losing, so I can't tell you much about their BOs. Hence why I called it "Fango's point" instead of mine.

I assumed that Classic was using some variation on this standard PvT build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/529995-pbotw-pvt-dns-blink-pressure-into-2x-forge

Terran being more or less completely reliant on some form of allin doesn't point towards the health of the MU either.


iirc Classic played greedier than that with a four minute nexus, earlier forge, and a number of other differences, and Maru opened safe with concussive shells falling pretty far behind economically before going for that all-in.

Regardless of this particular example, whenever a Terran loses to Protoss people will always use the excuse of PvT being imbalanced regardless of how well the Terran played, so it's specious to rationalize top zergs losing when any top terran losing would not have received the same sort of rationalization.

edit: Hmm... Looking at that standard PvT build you linked I think Maru's build was designed to smash that since I think upgrades finish ~30 seconds later when you go for that. That's kinda neat.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 01:12:15
January 21 2018 01:10 GMT
#30
On January 21 2018 10:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 09:54 pvsnp wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:48 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.

I think Fango's point is the fact that double forge off a blink/charge opener with a fast 3rd is NOT a BO loss against 2 base allin. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now is something less than balanced.


That's nonsense. If you look at Classic's build he plays extremely greedy early on, but has everything finish, all his warp gates, 1/1, charge, to be perfectly prepared right before Maru attacks. An all-in timed a minute earlier would destroy him, but he knows what Maru's doing.

I tuned into that series just in time to see Maru pulling his scvs and losing, so I can't tell you much about their BOs. Hence why I called it "Fango's point" instead of mine.

I assumed that Classic was using some variation on this standard PvT build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/529995-pbotw-pvt-dns-blink-pressure-into-2x-forge

Terran being more or less completely reliant on some form of allin doesn't point towards the health of the MU either.


iirc Classic played greedier than that with a four minute nexus, and a number of other differences, and Maru opened safe with concussive shells falling pretty far behind economically before going for that all-in.

Regardless of this particular example, whenever a Terran loses to Protoss people will always use the excuse of PvT being imbalanced regardless of how well the Terran played, so it's specious to rationalize top zergs losing when any top terran losing would not have received the same sort of rationalization.

That's balance politics for you. Nothing if not specious. Though it should be noted that it's not a Terran-exclusive tactic–just look at this post:
On January 21 2018 08:19 Tyrhanius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 02:44 KaiserCommander wrote:
I love how people base the premise "Terran is not underpowered" in this group...

Right now on GSL :
TvP 50%
TvZ : 83%

Yeah clearly, T isn't underpowered


^which was made after multiple people had already pointed out that the skill differentials were huge between the players.

When the game is significantly broken, the community really does start to resemble three political parties jockeying for Blizzard's attention/favor.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
January 21 2018 01:16 GMT
#31
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 01:24:23
January 21 2018 01:20 GMT
#32
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. While PvT is pretty imbalanced, I don't think that game was symptomatic of anything wrong (apart from Maru presumably going for that build rather than a macro game due to the state of balance).
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 01:25:29
January 21 2018 01:24 GMT
#33
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 01:29:03
January 21 2018 01:25 GMT
#34
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point. He held the all-in easily because he was so much greedier than Maru early on and got early upgrades and production that would come in to play right before Maru attacked and then built a bunch of units
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
January 21 2018 01:28 GMT
#35
On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point.


Classic: "Omae wa mou shindeiru"

Maru: "Nani"
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 01:33:11
January 21 2018 01:30 GMT
#36
On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point.


Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.

edit: I'm not saying classics build wasn't perfect or he didn't exucute it perfectly. I'm saying his build shouldn't be something that's viable in a balanced state of the game. You can't play borderline nr20 and still hold allins
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
January 21 2018 01:33 GMT
#37
On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point.


Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.


Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool.
GrandTerran
Profile Blog Joined January 2018
71 Posts
January 21 2018 08:51 GMT
#38
Its probably been mentioned before, but the headlines keep spoiling the results

Is there any option to hide spoilers or do I need to completely avoid Teamliquid until after I finish watching the games?
Athelas
Profile Joined March 2013
Poland15 Posts
January 21 2018 10:27 GMT
#39
I just rofl at people talking how terran is fine, while all zerg did was literally spam hydras with vipers, making some brood lords only once. Literally 30 minutes of mindless hydralisk spam. And game was actually close.

Even if statistics are fine, this state of the game is just very bad atm. Game design is on the floor.
You don't play to win. You play to improve.
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
January 21 2018 11:01 GMT
#40
I just rofl at people talking how zerg is fine, while all terran did was literally spam tanks with hellbats, making vikings once in a while. Literally 30 minutes of mindless tank/hellbat spam. And terran won the game.

Even if statistics are fine, this state of the game is just very bad atm. Game design is on the floor.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15960 Posts
January 21 2018 11:12 GMT
#41
I just rofl at people talking how protoss is fine, while all protoss did was literally spam zealots and stalkers, making templar once in a while. Literally 15 minutes of mindless zealot/stalker spam. And game was actually close.

Even if statistics are fine, this state of the game is just very bad atm. Game design is on the floor.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3383 Posts
January 21 2018 12:22 GMT
#42
Something, something.. Marine Marauder.
I'm glad we had this talk.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
DomeGetta
Profile Joined February 2012
480 Posts
January 21 2018 14:16 GMT
#43
I just rofl at people talking how trump is fine, while all obama did was literally spam free iphones and healthcare, making drone strikes once in a while. Literally 8 years of mindless well thought out speeches. And the polls were actually close.

Even if statistics are fine, this state of the country is just very bad atm... Country design is on the floor.

User was warned for this post
OrangeGarage
Profile Joined October 2015
Korea (South)319 Posts
January 21 2018 17:13 GMT
#44
On January 21 2018 17:51 GrandTerran wrote:
Its probably been mentioned before, but the headlines keep spoiling the results

Is there any option to hide spoilers or do I need to completely avoid Teamliquid until after I finish watching the games?

There was a thread relatively recently telling people how to use spoiler free option on TL.
Some sort of checkbox I think.
I forgot where it was but gl
I am drone! My dream is Hatchery!
LTCM
Profile Joined May 2017
174 Posts
January 21 2018 17:51 GMT
#45
On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.

That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now says something about balance.


Protoss was laughably underpowered before 4.0 so the delta between the two time periods is completely meaningless.
Byun is a convicted match-fixer.
GrandTerran
Profile Blog Joined January 2018
71 Posts
January 21 2018 18:08 GMT
#46
On January 22 2018 02:13 RCCar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 17:51 GrandTerran wrote:
Its probably been mentioned before, but the headlines keep spoiling the results

Is there any option to hide spoilers or do I need to completely avoid Teamliquid until after I finish watching the games?

There was a thread relatively recently telling people how to use spoiler free option on TL.
Some sort of checkbox I think.
I forgot where it was but gl


Thank you very much, I will look for it
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 20:16:14
January 21 2018 20:04 GMT
#47
On January 22 2018 02:51 LTCM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state.


Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.

That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now says something about balance.


Protoss was laughably underpowered before 4.0 so the delta between the two time periods is completely meaningless.

This man has never heard of Adept/Phoenix or 3-Stargate Oracle. He slept through Stats winning GSL Season 1, herO winning the first Super Tournament, Stats winning SSL, and Neeb dominating the foreign scene. He skipped watching the IEM Katowice final where TY won in Game 7 over Stats, the GSL Season 3 final where Inno won in Game 7 over sOs, and the second Super Tournament final where Rogue won in Game 7 over herO. He forgot that Protoss won the same number of major tournaments as Terran and more than Zerg in the 2017 WCS season, and had more finalists than Terran but less than Zerg in the same time period.

And without any of that knowledge, it is understandable why he might honestly think something so ridiculous as "Protoss was laughably underpowered before 4.0" when it was in fact balanced reasonably well.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
January 22 2018 01:17 GMT
#48
On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
[quote]

Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods....


So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him




Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point.


Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.


Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool.


If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
January 22 2018 09:18 GMT
#49
Seriously ? Balance talk because the winners of the IEM Katowice and GSL S2 2017 qualified (in pain for one) against RO32 and Code A players ?
TL+ Member
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-22 13:45:38
January 22 2018 09:38 GMT
#50
On January 22 2018 18:18 DieuCure wrote:
Seriously ? Balance talk because the winners of the IEM Katowice and GSL S2 2017 qualified (in pain for one) against RO32 and Code A players ?

Smh

User was warned for this post.
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
January 22 2018 09:43 GMT
#51
On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]

So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?

[quote]



Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point.


Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.


Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool.


If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge.


It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy".
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
January 22 2018 12:00 GMT
#52
On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
[quote]

Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point.


Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.


Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool.


If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge.


It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy".

The irony. Back in WoL the way how to hold 1-1-1 in leagues bellow master was to take a fast natural and build tons of units later. When executed properly you had enough units to kill it(as long as you didn't lose your observer )
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Cool G
Profile Joined August 2012
Australia11 Posts
January 22 2018 13:01 GMT
#53
On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
[quote]

Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape

Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran.


Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point.


Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.


Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool.


If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge.


It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy".


If you don't punish this greed with a 2 base all-in can you point us to the earlier all-in that punishes protoss? And if such an answer exists why haven't Terrans been using it and forcing toss out of playing this greedy style?

ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
January 22 2018 18:19 GMT
#54
On January 22 2018 22:01 Cool G wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]

Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking.


You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point.


Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.


Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool.


If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge.


It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy".


If you don't punish this greed with a 2 base all-in can you point us to the earlier all-in that punishes protoss? And if such an answer exists why haven't Terrans been using it and forcing toss out of playing this greedy style?


The all-in Maru went for is pretty good against standard Protoss, but was basically an anti-timing against the extremely greedy opening Classic did. I'd have to rewatch the game to give you a precise answer, but I don't think a suitable all-in would be that hard to define--Classic's opening was very greedy.

As for why terrans aren't doing well at punishing greed in general it's because Protoss players aren't necessarily telegraphing what builds they're going for, and as such due to the strength and flexibility of the stalker (as well as other changes helping Protoss midgame) Protoss players simply have an easier job and more margin for error than the terran (i.e TvP imbalance).

I don't think you can look at that game, and hail it as a shining example of terran vs protoss imbalance though considering everything. While the builds Classic and Maru went for are evidently influenced by the current state of TvP and the meta, it's still at the end of the day an incorrect timing from Maru, which could and does happen in other match-ups (and in those cases people blame the player and not the balance).
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
January 22 2018 18:34 GMT
#55
On January 23 2018 03:19 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 22:01 Cool G wrote:
On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
[quote]

You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.

I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily.


I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point.


Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.


Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool.


If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge.


It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy".


If you don't punish this greed with a 2 base all-in can you point us to the earlier all-in that punishes protoss? And if such an answer exists why haven't Terrans been using it and forcing toss out of playing this greedy style?


The all-in Maru went for is pretty good against standard Protoss, but was basically an anti-timing against the extremely greedy opening Classic did. I'd have to rewatch the game to give you a precise answer, but I don't think a suitable all-in would be that hard to define--Classic's opening was very greedy.

As for why terrans aren't doing well at punishing greed in general it's because Protoss players aren't necessarily telegraphing what builds they're going for, and as such due to the strength and flexibility of the stalker (as well as other changes helping Protoss midgame) Protoss players simply have an easier job and more margin for error than the terran (i.e TvP imbalance).

I don't think you can look at that game, and hail it as a shining example of terran vs protoss imbalance though considering everything. While the builds Classic and Maru went for are evidently influenced by the current state of TvP and the meta, it's still at the end of the day an incorrect timing from Maru, which could and does happen in other match-ups (and in those cases people blame the player and not the balance).

In short, while TvP does favor Protoss, Maru would have lost the game even if TvP was balanced perfectly.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
January 22 2018 19:06 GMT
#56
On January 23 2018 03:34 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2018 03:19 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 22 2018 22:01 Cool G wrote:
On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]

I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point.


Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.


Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool.


If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge.


It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy".


If you don't punish this greed with a 2 base all-in can you point us to the earlier all-in that punishes protoss? And if such an answer exists why haven't Terrans been using it and forcing toss out of playing this greedy style?


The all-in Maru went for is pretty good against standard Protoss, but was basically an anti-timing against the extremely greedy opening Classic did. I'd have to rewatch the game to give you a precise answer, but I don't think a suitable all-in would be that hard to define--Classic's opening was very greedy.

As for why terrans aren't doing well at punishing greed in general it's because Protoss players aren't necessarily telegraphing what builds they're going for, and as such due to the strength and flexibility of the stalker (as well as other changes helping Protoss midgame) Protoss players simply have an easier job and more margin for error than the terran (i.e TvP imbalance).

I don't think you can look at that game, and hail it as a shining example of terran vs protoss imbalance though considering everything. While the builds Classic and Maru went for are evidently influenced by the current state of TvP and the meta, it's still at the end of the day an incorrect timing from Maru, which could and does happen in other match-ups (and in those cases people blame the player and not the balance).

In short, while TvP does favor Protoss, Maru would have lost the game even if TvP was balanced perfectly.


You can't really look the games in a vacuum like this. Maru probably would have played a different strategy in a different meta. That being said, I dont think it's controversial to say Classic > Maru before the patch so there's no reason to think of Classic > Maru now as an upset or indicator of balance.
In Somnis Veritas
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
January 22 2018 19:08 GMT
#57
On January 23 2018 03:34 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2018 03:19 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 22 2018 22:01 Cool G wrote:
On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:
On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]

I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for.


If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one?

In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc


He'd already won at that point.


Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least.


Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool.


If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge.


It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy".


If you don't punish this greed with a 2 base all-in can you point us to the earlier all-in that punishes protoss? And if such an answer exists why haven't Terrans been using it and forcing toss out of playing this greedy style?


The all-in Maru went for is pretty good against standard Protoss, but was basically an anti-timing against the extremely greedy opening Classic did. I'd have to rewatch the game to give you a precise answer, but I don't think a suitable all-in would be that hard to define--Classic's opening was very greedy.

As for why terrans aren't doing well at punishing greed in general it's because Protoss players aren't necessarily telegraphing what builds they're going for, and as such due to the strength and flexibility of the stalker (as well as other changes helping Protoss midgame) Protoss players simply have an easier job and more margin for error than the terran (i.e TvP imbalance).

I don't think you can look at that game, and hail it as a shining example of terran vs protoss imbalance though considering everything. While the builds Classic and Maru went for are evidently influenced by the current state of TvP and the meta, it's still at the end of the day an incorrect timing from Maru, which could and does happen in other match-ups (and in those cases people blame the player and not the balance).

In short, while TvP does favor Protoss, Maru would have lost the game even if TvP was balanced perfectly.


Essentially, with the obvious caveat that in a different meta they would have gone for different builds. But you aren't getting anywhere if you argue about whether the build Maru would have gone for would beat the build Classic would have gone for.
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