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I just rofl at people talking how protoss is fine, while all protoss did was literally spam zealots and stalkers, making templar once in a while. Literally 15 minutes of mindless zealot/stalker spam. And game was actually close.
Even if statistics are fine, this state of the game is just very bad atm. Game design is on the floor.
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Something, something.. Marine Marauder.
I'm glad we had this talk.
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I just rofl at people talking how trump is fine, while all obama did was literally spam free iphones and healthcare, making drone strikes once in a while. Literally 8 years of mindless well thought out speeches. And the polls were actually close.
Even if statistics are fine, this state of the country is just very bad atm... Country design is on the floor.
User was warned for this post
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On January 21 2018 17:51 GrandTerran wrote:Its probably been mentioned before, but the headlines keep spoiling the results  Is there any option to hide spoilers or do I need to completely avoid Teamliquid until after I finish watching the games?
There was a thread relatively recently telling people how to use spoiler free option on TL.
Some sort of checkbox I think.
I forgot where it was but gl
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On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now says something about balance.
Protoss was laughably underpowered before 4.0 so the delta between the two time periods is completely meaningless.
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On January 22 2018 02:13 RCCar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 17:51 GrandTerran wrote:Its probably been mentioned before, but the headlines keep spoiling the results Is there any option to hide spoilers or do I need to completely avoid Teamliquid until after I finish watching the games? There was a thread relatively recently telling people how to use spoiler free option on TL. Some sort of checkbox I think. I forgot where it was but gl
Thank you very much, I will look for it 
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On January 22 2018 02:51 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 09:43 pvsnp wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's funny how people are simply dismissing Rogue losing to aLive as simply Rogue playing poorly as regardless of how true that is it wouldn't have been seen as such if TvZ was seen as being terran favoured. When Terrans lose to Protoss even if they play terribly it's always because PvT is in such a bad state. Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. That level of greed would be laughably unthinkable before 4.0 and the fact that it's not only thinkable but standard right now says something about balance. Protoss was laughably underpowered before 4.0 so the delta between the two time periods is completely meaningless.
This man has never heard of Adept/Phoenix or 3-Stargate Oracle. He slept through Stats winning GSL Season 1, herO winning the first Super Tournament, Stats winning SSL, and Neeb dominating the foreign scene. He skipped watching the IEM Katowice final where TY won in Game 7 over Stats, the GSL Season 3 final where Inno won in Game 7 over sOs, and the second Super Tournament final where Rogue won in Game 7 over herO. He forgot that Protoss won the same number of major tournaments as Terran and more than Zerg in the 2017 WCS season, and had more finalists than Terran but less than Zerg in the same time period.
And without any of that knowledge, it is understandable why he might honestly think something so ridiculous as "Protoss was laughably underpowered before 4.0" when it was in fact balanced reasonably well.
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On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 08:47 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Because Rogue was playing badly. He lost 0-2 to a foreigner right afterwoods.... So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this? On January 14 2018 12:48 Fango wrote:
It's almost sad that toss can go double forge, take a comfortable 3rd, and still hold a two base allin with just gateway units. At no point was Maru even close to breaking him Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin. I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily. I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc He'd already won at that point. Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least. Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool.
If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge.
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Seriously ? Balance talk because the winners of the IEM Katowice and GSL S2 2017 qualified (in pain for one) against RO32 and Code A players ?
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On January 22 2018 18:18 DieuCure wrote:
Seriously ? Balance talk because the winners of the IEM Katowice and GSL S2 2017 qualified (in pain for one) against RO32 and Code A players ?
Smh
User was warned for this post.
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On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 08:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]
So you mean that if theoretically Maru didn't play too well, got beaten one-sidedly by Classic, and lost to a foreigner right afterwards, you wouldn't make comments like this?
[quote]
Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin. I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily. I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc He'd already won at that point. Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least. Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool. If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge.
It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy".
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape
Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin. I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily. I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc He'd already won at that point. Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least. Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool. If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge. It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy".
The irony. Back in WoL the way how to hold 1-1-1 in leagues bellow master was to take a fast natural and build tons of units later. When executed properly you had enough units to kill it(as long as you didn't lose your observer  )
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On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 09:21 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Firstly, Maru vs Time was hardly a demonstration of form or current ability. It was 5 lazily done cheeses in a match that Maru apparently didn't care enough to play properly in. Although he did drop out of IEM qualifiers shortly after so it is likely he wasn't in good shape
Secondly, Maru vs Classic wasn't an example of one player being better than the other in standard games (like Rogue vs aLive). It was a showcase that toss can play extra greedy but still hold allins. Something that should (on paper) be an almost BOW for the terran. Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin. I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily. I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc He'd already won at that point. Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least. Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool. If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge. It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy".
If you don't punish this greed with a 2 base all-in can you point us to the earlier all-in that punishes protoss? And if such an answer exists why haven't Terrans been using it and forcing toss out of playing this greedy style?
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On January 22 2018 22:01 Cool G wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 09:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]
Maybe this will shock you, but double forge isn't a build order loss when 1/1 and charge finishes exactly as Maru pushes in. Considering what they went for as a BOW for terran is nothing more than bias speaking. You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin. I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily. I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc He'd already won at that point. Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least. Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool. If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge. It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy". If you don't punish this greed with a 2 base all-in can you point us to the earlier all-in that punishes protoss? And if such an answer exists why haven't Terrans been using it and forcing toss out of playing this greedy style?
The all-in Maru went for is pretty good against standard Protoss, but was basically an anti-timing against the extremely greedy opening Classic did. I'd have to rewatch the game to give you a precise answer, but I don't think a suitable all-in would be that hard to define--Classic's opening was very greedy.
As for why terrans aren't doing well at punishing greed in general it's because Protoss players aren't necessarily telegraphing what builds they're going for, and as such due to the strength and flexibility of the stalker (as well as other changes helping Protoss midgame) Protoss players simply have an easier job and more margin for error than the terran (i.e TvP imbalance).
I don't think you can look at that game, and hail it as a shining example of terran vs protoss imbalance though considering everything. While the builds Classic and Maru went for are evidently influenced by the current state of TvP and the meta, it's still at the end of the day an incorrect timing from Maru, which could and does happen in other match-ups (and in those cases people blame the player and not the balance).
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On January 23 2018 03:19 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 22:01 Cool G wrote:On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:16 Fango wrote:
[quote]
You misunderstand. The point is that going double forge, dumping all chrono into it, taking a fast third, and having mostly gateway units, should be a loss (or at least diffiicult hold) against a 2 base allin. He even started 2-2 whilst Maru was attacking. Hell, in one of the games he upgraded straight to +3 attack and took a fourth base, whilst also holding the 2 base allin.
I'm not saying Classic isn't better or didn't deserve to win. I'm saying that protoss shouldn't be able to play that greedy and hold allins that easily. I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc He'd already won at that point. Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least. Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool. If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge. It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy". If you don't punish this greed with a 2 base all-in can you point us to the earlier all-in that punishes protoss? And if such an answer exists why haven't Terrans been using it and forcing toss out of playing this greedy style? The all-in Maru went for is pretty good against standard Protoss, but was basically an anti-timing against the extremely greedy opening Classic did. I'd have to rewatch the game to give you a precise answer, but I don't think a suitable all-in would be that hard to define--Classic's opening was very greedy. As for why terrans aren't doing well at punishing greed in general it's because Protoss players aren't necessarily telegraphing what builds they're going for, and as such due to the strength and flexibility of the stalker (as well as other changes helping Protoss midgame) Protoss players simply have an easier job and more margin for error than the terran (i.e TvP imbalance). I don't think you can look at that game, and hail it as a shining example of terran vs protoss imbalance though considering everything. While the builds Classic and Maru went for are evidently influenced by the current state of TvP and the meta, it's still at the end of the day an incorrect timing from Maru, which could and does happen in other match-ups (and in those cases people blame the player and not the balance).
In short, while TvP does favor Protoss, Maru would have lost the game even if TvP was balanced perfectly.
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On January 23 2018 03:34 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2018 03:19 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 22 2018 22:01 Cool G wrote:On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]
I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc He'd already won at that point. Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least. Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool. If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge. It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy". If you don't punish this greed with a 2 base all-in can you point us to the earlier all-in that punishes protoss? And if such an answer exists why haven't Terrans been using it and forcing toss out of playing this greedy style? The all-in Maru went for is pretty good against standard Protoss, but was basically an anti-timing against the extremely greedy opening Classic did. I'd have to rewatch the game to give you a precise answer, but I don't think a suitable all-in would be that hard to define--Classic's opening was very greedy. As for why terrans aren't doing well at punishing greed in general it's because Protoss players aren't necessarily telegraphing what builds they're going for, and as such due to the strength and flexibility of the stalker (as well as other changes helping Protoss midgame) Protoss players simply have an easier job and more margin for error than the terran (i.e TvP imbalance). I don't think you can look at that game, and hail it as a shining example of terran vs protoss imbalance though considering everything. While the builds Classic and Maru went for are evidently influenced by the current state of TvP and the meta, it's still at the end of the day an incorrect timing from Maru, which could and does happen in other match-ups (and in those cases people blame the player and not the balance). In short, while TvP does favor Protoss, Maru would have lost the game even if TvP was balanced perfectly.
You can't really look the games in a vacuum like this. Maru probably would have played a different strategy in a different meta. That being said, I dont think it's controversial to say Classic > Maru before the patch so there's no reason to think of Classic > Maru now as an upset or indicator of balance.
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On January 23 2018 03:34 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2018 03:19 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 22 2018 22:01 Cool G wrote:On January 22 2018 18:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 22 2018 10:17 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:30 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 21 2018 10:24 Fango wrote:On January 21 2018 10:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]
I disagree. I think Classic's build was greedy at exactly the right moments to be good against what Maru went for. If you think taking a 4th and continuing to dump chrono into forges whilst under attack from a 2 base allin is the "right moment" how can there be a wrong one? In literally any balanced variety of the game, to hold an allin with no effort you should have to slow upgrades, build only units, stop expanding, throw down static defense etc He'd already won at that point. Exactly. You shouldn't be able to hold allins so easily. And you certainly shouldn't be able to hold allins without cutting upgrades/probes/expansions or something at least. Might as well argue that a zerg shouldn't be able to hold a two base marine tank push, because he was greedy and went for three hatch before pool. If you play greedy against an allin (like double hatch + double evo), it should be at least difficult to hold. Otherwise there's literally no reason no to play greedy. That's the position protoss is in now. No reason not to fast expand and go double forge. It seems that you can't get into your head the fact that playing greedy very early on like in that game is actually helpful when holding a later all-in. Opening double hatch + double evo right off the bat (greedy) is helpful when it comes to holding a 2-base marine tank push (all-in) but it also can get you killed against a one base hellbat timing(different all-in). Starcraft isn't as binary as "aggro" > "greedy". If you don't punish this greed with a 2 base all-in can you point us to the earlier all-in that punishes protoss? And if such an answer exists why haven't Terrans been using it and forcing toss out of playing this greedy style? The all-in Maru went for is pretty good against standard Protoss, but was basically an anti-timing against the extremely greedy opening Classic did. I'd have to rewatch the game to give you a precise answer, but I don't think a suitable all-in would be that hard to define--Classic's opening was very greedy. As for why terrans aren't doing well at punishing greed in general it's because Protoss players aren't necessarily telegraphing what builds they're going for, and as such due to the strength and flexibility of the stalker (as well as other changes helping Protoss midgame) Protoss players simply have an easier job and more margin for error than the terran (i.e TvP imbalance). I don't think you can look at that game, and hail it as a shining example of terran vs protoss imbalance though considering everything. While the builds Classic and Maru went for are evidently influenced by the current state of TvP and the meta, it's still at the end of the day an incorrect timing from Maru, which could and does happen in other match-ups (and in those cases people blame the player and not the balance). In short, while TvP does favor Protoss, Maru would have lost the game even if TvP was balanced perfectly.
Essentially, with the obvious caveat that in a different meta they would have gone for different builds. But you aren't getting anywhere if you argue about whether the build Maru would have gone for would beat the build Classic would have gone for.
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