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On January 13 2018 09:33 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 09:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:47 Psychobabas wrote:On January 13 2018 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there. Players will still spam ravens for the autoturrets in late game. Rapidfire trick and autoturrets from 20 ravens is bat-shit crazy. I highly doubt it. With no PDD and no Seeker Missile going for mass raven is asking for getting dived on by corruptors and losing everything. Yes that is true but why wouldnt you want 15 ravens and their 60 autoturrets vs anything else in Terran late game where you already have your backbone of tanks, your sprinkle of hellbats, your thors. I am not saying that the terran will go full on raven but they sure can make 10-15 of them. There is no real reason not to do this. The 30 supply of ravens is so much superior vs the 5 thors you can make or anything else really. (I assume the player is using the rapid fire trick to deploy mass turrets in a blink of an eye.) And this promotes turtle style mech which is just...
Hmm... I wasn't really thinking of TvT since mass raven TvT almost never happened at the highest level pre-patch. Interference Matrix might change things somewhat, but I do think there's enough trading in TvTs that massing ravens won't be easy. Though vikings (no PDD or Seeker) and ghosts (for EMP) might actually be decent against ravens now.
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I saw some of replies on my post and I get it "getting to vipers and problem solved". The part "getting to vipers" already makes me to flip the table the fact you need to get Hive tech just to deal with spamming tier-1 (hellion) tier-2 (tanks, thors) units composition. The hive does take time and Terran can push early especially in smaller maps. You have no vipers then you are screwed. Vipers are not cheap. They are energy-based units as well so you can't just spam spells. Also, Terrans are not stupid. They do build vikings/thors to deal with vipers. Yah, Parasitic Bomb can deal with vikings but then Terrans just land them (very quickly as well with servos upgrade) which is basically a LOL moment in the face of the Z. Blind cloud is only 6 seconds and if the Terrans spread the tanks well, you will never trade well enough given you have to chew through the layers of hellbats and thors to even get to the tanks to begin with. By then, everything is blasted to pieces thanks to tanks! On top of that, too much minerals in the bank, let build turrets everywhere as well. One abduct under those turrets you basically kill a tank/thor and trade for a viper. That is "good" trade right there!
Maybe I'm just a trash player so I need to "get good" or whatever but the problem with "one unit to deal the entire composite with 4/5 different units" is just ridiculous. Anyway, my ranting doesn't matter given who am I to talk but at least I'm here to entertain some folks.
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On January 13 2018 09:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 09:33 Psychobabas wrote:On January 13 2018 09:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:47 Psychobabas wrote:On January 13 2018 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there. Players will still spam ravens for the autoturrets in late game. Rapidfire trick and autoturrets from 20 ravens is bat-shit crazy. I highly doubt it. With no PDD and no Seeker Missile going for mass raven is asking for getting dived on by corruptors and losing everything. Yes that is true but why wouldnt you want 15 ravens and their 60 autoturrets vs anything else in Terran late game where you already have your backbone of tanks, your sprinkle of hellbats, your thors. I am not saying that the terran will go full on raven but they sure can make 10-15 of them. There is no real reason not to do this. The 30 supply of ravens is so much superior vs the 5 thors you can make or anything else really. (I assume the player is using the rapid fire trick to deploy mass turrets in a blink of an eye.) And this promotes turtle style mech which is just... Hmm... I wasn't really thinking of TvT since mass raven TvT almost never happened at the highest level pre-patch. Interference Matrix might change things somewhat, but I do think there's enough trading in TvTs that massing ravens won't be easy. Though vikings (no PDD or Seeker) and ghosts (for EMP) might actually be decent against ravens now.
As a meching Terran since the beginning of SC2. I should be happy with the autoturrets but I do not like this direction since it will make me to just sit in my base once again, take expansions one by one, turtle up and wait for my enemy to engage me.
Win or lose that is the most efficient way to play mech in my opinion if that change comes through. Why wouldnt I wait for the enemy to come to me with my full energy ravens filled with autoturrets. Obvious exception is protoss and their air fleet (or is it? with the new proposed interference matrix duration buff). But TvT and TvZ is pretty much set in stone for me already.
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On January 13 2018 09:48 Vutalisk wrote:
I saw some of replies on my post and I get it "getting to vipers and problem solved". The part "getting to vipers" already makes me to flip the table the fact you need to get Hive tech just to deal with spamming tier-1 (hellion) tier-2 (tanks, thors) units composition. The hive does take time and Terran can push early especially in smaller maps. You have no vipers then you are screwed. Vipers are not cheap. They are energy-based units as well so you can't just spam spells. Also, Terrans are not stupid. They do build vikings/thors to deal with vipers. Yah, Parasitic Bomb can deal with vikings but then Terrans just land them (very quickly as well with servos upgrade) which is basically a LOL moment in the face of the Z. Blind cloud is only 6 seconds and if the Terrans spread the tanks well, you will never trade well enough given you have to chew through the layers of hellbats and thors to even get to the tanks to begin with. By then, everything is blasted to pieces thanks to tanks! On top of that, too much minerals in the bank, let build turrets everywhere as well. One abduct under those turrets you basically kill a tank/thor and trade for a viper. That is "good" trade right there!
Maybe I'm just a trash player so I need to "get good" or whatever but the problem with "one unit to deal the entire composite with 4/5 different units" is just ridiculous. Anyway, my ranting doesn't matter given who am I to talk but at least I'm here to entertain some folks.
Sorry but you talk like Broodlords and Swarmhosts didn't exist.
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On January 13 2018 09:48 Vutalisk wrote:
I saw some of replies on my post and I get it "getting to vipers and problem solved". The part "getting to vipers" already makes me to flip the table the fact you need to get Hive tech just to deal with spamming tier-1 (hellion) tier-2 (tanks, thors) units composition. The hive does take time and Terran can push early especially in smaller maps. You have no vipers then you are screwed. Vipers are not cheap. They are energy-based units as well so you can't just spam spells. Also, Terrans are not stupid. They do build vikings/thors to deal with vipers. Yah, Parasitic Bomb can deal with vikings but then Terrans just land them (very quickly as well with servos upgrade) which is basically a LOL moment in the face of the Z. Blind cloud is only 6 seconds and if the Terrans spread the tanks well, you will never trade well enough given you have to chew through the layers of hellbats and thors to even get to the tanks to begin with. By then, everything is blasted to pieces thanks to tanks! On top of that, too much minerals in the bank, let build turrets everywhere as well. One abduct under those turrets you basically kill a tank/thor and trade for a viper. That is "good" trade right there!
Maybe I'm just a trash player so I need to "get good" or whatever but the problem with "one unit to deal the entire composite with 4/5 different units" is just ridiculous. Anyway, my ranting doesn't matter given who am I to talk but at least I'm here to entertain some folks.
Mech is balanced in TvZ. It's also a frustrating composition to deal with–and to play–for a lot of people. Which is why a lot of Zergs and a lot of Terrans both prefer bio TvZ being the meta.
With any luck, this update will help bio make a comeback.
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Soon zerg will only be able to defend until deathball army in every matchup, with no viable pressure builds or threatening all-ins. With no unit composition choices. The current cyclones and banshees make roach pressure worthless versus terran unless they get completely blind sided. Roach/ravager pressure is also terrible versus protoss for various reasons. Roach play is almost never seen in ZvP or ZvT anymore. Infestors or swarmhosts are almost never seen, exept some infestors to complement the deathball army. Mutalisks are almost never seen anymore.
Zergs viable playstyle are getting slimmer and slimmer. All they have left is hydra ling bane, and by nerfing hydra upgrades. you are making aggressive hydras weaker, lowering zerg strategies even more.
I understand ZvP hydra all-ins are pretty strong, but look at the number of protoss all-ins.. They have so many, all made strong because of the power of warp-prism.
I really think warp-prism might need to be looked at, the pick-up range specifically, or the speed.
Protoss and terran have so many diverse openings that are viable against zerg and dont put them all-in, while zerg has pretty much no versatility.
It would be nice to be able to do something else than hydra bane into hive tech deathball once in a while. But it seems there is no chance of that ever happening at this rate.
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One word : SAD. It just makes me sad.
The stalker was finally a good unit for its cost.. Aaaaand it's gone already. After what, not even 2 months ?
And for what reason if not for the sake of Terran whine... Again. The winrates in PvT weren't even alarming (i.e Protoss winrates between 50%-55%).. it was just Protoss favored, for the first time in almost a year. But as always, it's inacceptable for the race that has the most followers in this community, and thus, cries the loudest..
For the rest, hydralisk nerf is good, even though I'm afraid it won't be enough (Please remember hydralisks single handedly stopped Terrans from going bio in TvZ and broke the PvZ to a point where the Protoss winrate in the matchup has turned into a joke).
The raven needed a buff, it was in a really bad spot.. But bringing back the auto turret.. Meh.. Would have prefered a buff to the new abilities.. Clearly interference matrix doesnt last long enough, everybody can see that, while the ability itself is great.
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Good luck trying to beat mid-game tank pushes with shit Hydras again. Those 6 months of the 8 year history of this game where they were actually good units was fun, back to going for a Ravager all-in or Muta/Ling/Bane and losing because Zerg can't compete with Terran in a macro game.
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Edit:
Just give back the old Marauder.
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On January 13 2018 10:03 Snakestyle1 wrote:
Soon zerg will only be able to defend until deathball army in every matchup, with no viable pressure builds or threatening all-ins. With no unit composition choices. The current cyclones and banshees make roach pressure worthless versus terran unless they get completely blind sided. Roach/ravager pressure is also terrible versus protoss for various reasons. Roach play is almost never seen in ZvP or ZvT anymore. Infestors or swarmhosts are almost never seen, exept some infestors to complement the deathball army. Mutalisks are almost never seen anymore.
Zergs viable playstyle are getting slimmer and slimmer. All they have left is hydra ling bane, and by nerfing hydra upgrades. you are making aggressive hydras weaker, lowering zerg strategies even more.
I understand ZvP hydra all-ins are pretty strong, but look at the number of protoss all-ins.. They have so many, all made strong because of the power of warp-prism.
I really think warp-prism might need to be looked at, the pick-up range specifically, or the speed.
Protoss and terran have so many diverse openings that are viable against zerg and dont put them all-in, while zerg has pretty much no versatility.
It would be nice to be able to do something else than hydra bane into hive tech deathball once in a while. But it seems there is no chance of that ever happening at this rate.
Protoss and Terrans allin Zergs because they dont want to deal with the Zerg late game or the usual hydralingbane flood. The nerf delays that flood. Also, Zerg has so many tools to scout for allins...
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On January 13 2018 10:04 Snarosc wrote:
One word : SAD. It just makes me sad.
The stalker was finally a good unit for its cost.. Aaaaand it's gone already. After what, not even 2 months ?
And for what reason if not for the sake of Terran whine... Again. The winrates in PvT weren't even alarming (i.e Protoss winrates between 50%-55%).. it was just Protoss favored, for the first time in almost a year. But as always, it's inacceptable for the race that has the most followers in this community, and thus, cries the loudest..
For the rest, hydralisk nerf is good, even though I'm afraid it won't be enough (Please remember hydralisks single handedly stopped Terrans from going bio in TvZ and broke the PvZ to a point where the Protoss winrate in the matchup has turned into a joke).
The raven needed a buff, it was in a really bad spot.. But bringing back the auto turret.. Meh.. Would have prefered a buff to the new abilities.. Clearly interference matrix doesnt last long enough, everybody can see that, while the ability itself is great.
Am I the only one who finds "SAD!" absolutely hilarious?
Now I'm imagining a Trump tweet about SC2 balance....
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On January 13 2018 10:13 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 10:04 Snarosc wrote:
One word : SAD. It just makes me sad.
The stalker was finally a good unit for its cost.. Aaaaand it's gone already. After what, not even 2 months ?
And for what reason if not for the sake of Terran whine... Again. The winrates in PvT weren't even alarming (i.e Protoss winrates between 50%-55%).. it was just Protoss favored, for the first time in almost a year. But as always, it's inacceptable for the race that has the most followers in this community, and thus, cries the loudest..
For the rest, hydralisk nerf is good, even though I'm afraid it won't be enough (Please remember hydralisks single handedly stopped Terrans from going bio in TvZ and broke the PvZ to a point where the Protoss winrate in the matchup has turned into a joke).
The raven needed a buff, it was in a really bad spot.. But bringing back the auto turret.. Meh.. Would have prefered a buff to the new abilities.. Clearly interference matrix doesnt last long enough, everybody can see that, while the ability itself is great.
Am I the only one who finds "SAD!" absolutely hilarious? Now I'm imagining a Trump tweet about SC2 balance....
Personally, I find it hilarious that in this thread alone there are balance whines by players from every race :D
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On January 13 2018 10:52 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 10:13 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 10:04 Snarosc wrote:
One word : SAD. It just makes me sad.
The stalker was finally a good unit for its cost.. Aaaaand it's gone already. After what, not even 2 months ?
And for what reason if not for the sake of Terran whine... Again. The winrates in PvT weren't even alarming (i.e Protoss winrates between 50%-55%).. it was just Protoss favored, for the first time in almost a year. But as always, it's inacceptable for the race that has the most followers in this community, and thus, cries the loudest..
For the rest, hydralisk nerf is good, even though I'm afraid it won't be enough (Please remember hydralisks single handedly stopped Terrans from going bio in TvZ and broke the PvZ to a point where the Protoss winrate in the matchup has turned into a joke).
The raven needed a buff, it was in a really bad spot.. But bringing back the auto turret.. Meh.. Would have prefered a buff to the new abilities.. Clearly interference matrix doesnt last long enough, everybody can see that, while the ability itself is great.
Am I the only one who finds "SAD!" absolutely hilarious? Now I'm imagining a Trump tweet about SC2 balance.... Personally, I find it hilarious that in this thread alone there are balance whines by players from every race :D
It means the dev team is on the right track! A good compromise is when both parties are dissatisfied. 
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On January 13 2018 10:06 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Edit:
Just give back the old Marauder.
yes please!
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Protoss players dying against mmm+libs and ling+bane+hydra for two years. When we get a stalker that scales well it lasts a month.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
PS-For god sake, nerf blink, buff marauders or tanks, but let us have a strong gateway unit !!
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David Kim forgive them,they don't know what they doing. "one big mess" and now what? we are rolling back to the backup of the patch 3.9? And bring back already old marauders.
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On January 13 2018 10:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 10:52 ggrrg wrote:On January 13 2018 10:13 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 10:04 Snarosc wrote:
One word : SAD. It just makes me sad.
The stalker was finally a good unit for its cost.. Aaaaand it's gone already. After what, not even 2 months ?
And for what reason if not for the sake of Terran whine... Again. The winrates in PvT weren't even alarming (i.e Protoss winrates between 50%-55%).. it was just Protoss favored, for the first time in almost a year. But as always, it's inacceptable for the race that has the most followers in this community, and thus, cries the loudest..
For the rest, hydralisk nerf is good, even though I'm afraid it won't be enough (Please remember hydralisks single handedly stopped Terrans from going bio in TvZ and broke the PvZ to a point where the Protoss winrate in the matchup has turned into a joke).
The raven needed a buff, it was in a really bad spot.. But bringing back the auto turret.. Meh.. Would have prefered a buff to the new abilities.. Clearly interference matrix doesnt last long enough, everybody can see that, while the ability itself is great.
Am I the only one who finds "SAD!" absolutely hilarious? Now I'm imagining a Trump tweet about SC2 balance.... Personally, I find it hilarious that in this thread alone there are balance whines by players from every race :D It means the dev team is on the right track! A good compromise is when both parties are dissatisfied.
Fair is when everyone is equally unhappy
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On January 13 2018 11:08 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Protoss players dying against mmm+libs and ling+bane+hydra for two years. When we get a stalker that scales well it lasts a month.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
PS-For god sake, nerf blink, buff marauders or tanks, but let us have a strong gateway unit !!
This is a communty update not a patch, and people say terran players are the whiniest. These changes are far from definitive considering half are "we are looking into this" without any specific change mentioned.
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Zerg only got slower, and altho I cant say I know the anser is it really intressting to pick order on Hydra speed and Hydra range?
Should just been "Hydra upgrade now take twice as long to research" to make it simpler and not confuse anyone that any flexibility or possible upside can be gained.
I mean it not like it an intressting change that in the end is worse, or change what you want to do, it just make it slower and worse period. It by no means a nail in the coffin but it plain boring.
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Zerg already has to insta react to any mech agression or lose half mineral line to shift clicked liberators or 4 helions. Mech harass take no more skill than adept shade, and now blizzard want to give terran back another 1 click, free damage, no risk harass comming from an unit that zerg can never catch. This is their brilliant idea of balance.
And that hydra nerf will just bring mass airtoss back again, nice major patch Blizzard. Comming next month: Reaper grenade nerf reverted.
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EPT
