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Source: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20760956093
We hope you all had a nice holiday season and have been enjoying the exciting matches happening at WCS, GSL, WESG and IEM. Though we issued a patch just recently, we’d like to take quick action on a few things based on what we’ve been observing in the live game and hearing in the forums.
Our currently goal is to push the next balance update live on January 29—but that is subject to change. Since this update is scheduled right before a number of key esports events for StarCraft II, we’re also planning to release a balance update mod prior to the patch going live so pro players have more time to practice.
Terran
Ghost
We wanted to test out switching the upgrade built into the Ghost to see if we could create new tactical possibilities. This hasn’t really worked out the way we’d hoped it would; the extra energy for EMP hasn’t proven to be all that impactful, especially at high levels of play, compared to Cloak timings. Ultimately, the changes have resulted in an unintended nerf to the Ghost, so we’re going to revert the change entirely. Ghosts will have to research Cloak at the Ghost Academy, and will start with 75 energy instead of 50.
Raven
The Raven currently functions purely in a support role, which is a difficult one for an expensive detector/caster combination to fulfil in the early game. We think the issue is that since Terran players only have a small window of time in the early game to attach a Tech Lab to their first Starport, they often just choose to attach a Reactor instead—so they can easily mass produce Vikings, Medivacs and/or Liberators for midgame fights. Starport Tech Lab units have to provide more immediate value to justify both their cost and the trade-off of attaching a Tech Lab instead of a Reactor. Right now, the Raven is simply too much of an investment for the benefit it provides in the early game. We propose bringing back the Auto-Turret. Prior to our November update, we saw that players can use an early game Raven to harass and then transition it into more of a support/detection role. This adaptability helps offset its high cost and gives Terran players more ways to make their opening moves in a game. Auto-Turret would replace the current Repair Drone.
We’re also looking at improving Interference Matrix and Anti-Armor Missile. For the Interference Matrix, we’re testing out an increase in duration to 10 seconds. We think the current 6 seconds might be too low for a single-target disable. The Anti-Armor Missile, meanwhile, is difficult to land effectively, which often makes it too risky a purchase given how expensive it is. We’re testing a number of changes, which include: reducing its energy cost to 75; increasing its blast radius; and eliminating its startup phase, allowing the missile to start moving towards its target as soon as it’s executed.
Zerg
Hydralisk
Hydralisks currently act as a powerful midgame unit against Terran and Protoss. When fully upgraded, they can help secure a late-game transition for Zerg players, or a quick victory if the opponent is unprepared. We feel that this is a good role for them, but their upgrades can come online too quickly. We’re trying to make it a little more “costly” to upgrade Hydralisks by once again splitting Muscular Augments into two separate upgrades. The cost of each upgrade will remain the same at 100 Minerals, 100 Vespene Gas, and 100 seconds of research time, but this doubles the time it takes to fully upgrade Hydralisks.
Viper
There is currently a bug in the game that causes Parasitic Bomb to deal damage instantly upon impact, rather than after a 1 second cooldown as we intended. We’re fixing this, which means the ability is getting a slight nerf.
Protoss
Stalker
Similar to the change to Hydralisks, we wanted to focus on Protoss’s midgame power. Stalkers are quite powerful at sniping units right now, which makes them a bit too capable of eliminating all early-game threats. This can give Protoss players an unfair lead, resulting in powerful advantages in the mid and late-game. The buff also resulted in Stalkers overlapping more with Adepts for the early game anti-light unit role. We want to go with our previously mentioned change of bringing Stalker damage to 13 (+5 Armored) and decreasing their attack period to 1.87. The change in damage would make Stalkers (with zero upgrades) able to kill a Marine with four shots, while the increase in attack speed would allow Stalkers to dispatch Zerglings more quickly. The damage change also means that upgrades will have +1 to base damage and +1 to armored, instead of +2 to base damage. As a result, Stalkers will scale less favorably against light targets but still scale better versus armored than they did prior to the November design patch.
Recall
We wanted to add an additional 1 second of delay for the Mothership and the Nexus when these units warp in before players can command them. This will bring the overall time that units spend unable to take actions closer to pre-4.0 Recall timing, giving opponents a bit more time to react to incoming Protoss reinforcements.
Disruptor
In the last patch, we tried to address the fact that Disruptor drops were hard to deal with both because it killed workers too efficiently, and because ground units couldn’t pursue a Warp Prism when facing the threat of an instant Purification Nova. The delay we added seems to be weakening Disruptors too much, however, so we’re looking into various ways to address this issue.
Lastly, we saw a post on Team Liquid which proposed some adjustments to the Adept and Disruptor units to make them easier to manage and control. We think changes like this could be positive, so we want to try them out. Currently, Disruptors do not display range indicators unless you have a single one selected and are actively targeting with the Purification Nova ability. This can make it difficult to calculate the Purification Nova’s range. We want to try displaying the range indicator for all Disruptors while they’re selected to make it easier for players to calculate maximum distance for Purification Nova. As for Adepts, the fact that they stop moving after using the Psionic Transfer ability means their controls are a bit unclear. We want to try and change the Adept so that it will continue with its last issued command instead of simply stopping.
We understand this is a significant list of changes, so we’ll get out a balance test extension mod prior to the patch going live for pro players to practice on. Thanks for your continued feedback, and please let us know your thoughts on the proposed changes!
On January 13 2018 09:00 Psychobabas wrote:List of proposed changes: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20760956093?page=1Poll: Ghost cloak reverted back to academy. Starts with 75 energy.Good change (199) 71% Undecided (46) 16% Bad change (35) 13% 280 total votes Your vote: Ghost cloak reverted back to academy. Starts with 75 energy. (Vote): Good change
(Vote): Bad change
(Vote): Undecided
Poll: Ravens gets back AutoturretBad change (160) 46% Good change (137) 39% Undecided (53) 15% 350 total votes Your vote: Ravens gets back Autoturret (Vote): Good change
(Vote): Bad change
(Vote): Undecided
Poll: Remove Raven Repair DroneGood change (139) 51% Bad change (76) 28% Undecided (57) 21% 272 total votes Your vote: Remove Raven Repair Drone (Vote): Good change
(Vote): Bad change
(Vote): Undecided
Poll: Increase Interference Matrix duration to 10 seconds.Good change (185) 76% Undecided (33) 14% Bad change (26) 11% 244 total votes Your vote: Increase Interference Matrix duration to 10 seconds. (Vote): Good change
(Vote): Bad change
(Vote): Undecided
Poll: Split Hydralisk upgrade into 2 separate upgradesGood change (226) 74% Bad change (65) 21% Undecided (13) 4% 304 total votes Your vote: Split Hydralisk upgrade into 2 separate upgrades (Vote): Good change
(Vote): Bad change
(Vote): Undecided
Poll: Stalker change part 1: Faster but weaker hits. (dps same)Good Change (187) 72% Bad Change (51) 20% Undecided (22) 8% 260 total votes Your vote: Stalker change part 1: Faster but weaker hits. (dps same) (Vote): Good Change
(Vote): Bad Change
(Vote): Undecided
Poll: Stalker change part 2: upgrades scale worse vs light units.Good Change (167) 71% Bad Change (46) 20% Undecided (21) 9% 234 total votes Your vote: Stalker change part 2: upgrades scale worse vs light units. (Vote): Good Change
(Vote): Bad Change
(Vote): Undecided
Poll: Recall takes an extra second to teleport units to the nexus.Good change (192) 77% Bad change (40) 16% Undecided (18) 7% 250 total votes Your vote: Recall takes an extra second to teleport units to the nexus. (Vote): Good change
(Vote): Bad change
(Vote): Undecided
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Happy they addressed the hydralisk upgrades and the ghost.
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These are amazing changes blizzard I think this is an awesome direction to go towards, however, regarding the Terran changes I personally think ghosts cloak should be buffed maybe in price or research time to make the ghost a bit stronger. I also think that the Raven changes should be looked into a bit more. While I am very happy to see the Auto turret being brought back (Brings back a lot of Terran openers) I think it would be more worthwhile to swap out the interference matrix. The reason I propose this is because I think that while repair drone is not the best ability I think it too should be swapped out and replaced back for the PDD. The reason I say the PDD is because since its removal Terran (Mech specifically) has fewer options for dealing with tempests. That and the PDD played such a fun role in changing how the dynamic of an early skirmish in TvP or TvT Viking trades would play out. I also feel like the PDD added a new dynamic when doom dropping into a base full of static defense. Those are just my suggestions though and I think a lot of other players like myself will be very happy with these changes! Keep up the great work blizzard 
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Ghosts will be more useful again which is good. Shame the insta cloak is removed before pros started doing more rushes with it.
Hydras needed to be addressed, although I was hoping they would nerf their health and buff mutas instead
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Seems reasonable. Disruptors still aren't worth building even with this change though.
Patching right after Leipzig and before Pyeongchang makes the timing of the patch really tight, but I guess there isn't any better window.
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Expected changes for the stalker, welcome revert on ghosts, not sure if that's enough of a nerf for hydras.
But please pleeaaaaaaaaaaase stop using the old blizzard times for balance update, it's been more than 2 years since the game use real time...this literally makes no sense
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greaT! Now buff bio in any small way so WE arent forced to play mech. Please. I hate mech.
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All the proposed changes make sense.
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On January 13 2018 05:07 ArtyK wrote:
Expected changes for the stalker, welcome revert on ghosts, not sure if that's enough of a nerf for hydras.
But please pleeaaaaaaaaaaase stop using the old blizzard times for balance update, it's been more than 2 years since the game use real time...this literally makes no sense
Everything in the engine still uses the old Blizzard time. All they did was convert the in-game display (which is why you end up with odd quirks like the hour 0 appearing at the front of the timer after 43 minutes).
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On January 13 2018 05:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Seems reasonable. Disruptors still aren't worth building even with this change though.
Patching right after Leipzig and before Pyeongchang makes the timing of the patch really tight, but I guess there isn't any better window.
They didn't mention any specific change for the Disruptor, just that "we’re looking into various ways to address this issue."
And I agree that there really isn't a good window of time to push this patch live, but imo many of these changes should've been done in the offseason anyhow.
On January 13 2018 05:12 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 05:07 ArtyK wrote:
Expected changes for the stalker, welcome revert on ghosts, not sure if that's enough of a nerf for hydras.
But please pleeaaaaaaaaaaase stop using the old blizzard times for balance update, it's been more than 2 years since the game use real time...this literally makes no sense Everything in the engine still uses the old Blizzard time. All they did was convert the in-game display (which is why you end up with odd quirks like the hour 0 appearing at the front of the timer after 43 minutes).
I think some people don't understand how hard it is to completely refector something as deeply embedded as the time presumably is in the source code.
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On January 13 2018 05:12 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 05:07 ArtyK wrote:
Expected changes for the stalker, welcome revert on ghosts, not sure if that's enough of a nerf for hydras.
But please pleeaaaaaaaaaaase stop using the old blizzard times for balance update, it's been more than 2 years since the game use real time...this literally makes no sense Everything in the engine still uses the old Blizzard time. All they did was convert the in-game display (which is why you end up with odd quirks like the hour 0 appearing at the front of the timer after 43 minutes).
and why would it make sense not to convert in the feedback??? They're not not adressing the balance team but the players, who are used to the timings written ingame and on liquipedia, and those are real time.
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welcome back shitty stalker. At least theu could kept the +2 upgrades. Oh well...less variety again.
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On January 13 2018 05:15 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 05:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Seems reasonable. Disruptors still aren't worth building even with this change though.
Patching right after Leipzig and before Pyeongchang makes the timing of the patch really tight, but I guess there isn't any better window. They didn't mention any specific change for the Disruptor, just that "we’re looking into various ways to address this issue." And I agree that there really isn't a good window of time to push this patch live, but imo many of these changes should've been done in the offseason anyhow. Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 05:12 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 05:07 ArtyK wrote:
Expected changes for the stalker, welcome revert on ghosts, not sure if that's enough of a nerf for hydras.
But please pleeaaaaaaaaaaase stop using the old blizzard times for balance update, it's been more than 2 years since the game use real time...this literally makes no sense Everything in the engine still uses the old Blizzard time. All they did was convert the in-game display (which is why you end up with odd quirks like the hour 0 appearing at the front of the timer after 43 minutes). I think some people don't understand how hard it is to completely refector something as deeply embedded as the time presumably is in the source code.
One way I think would be to remove the delay but to scale the damage of the disruptor ball with time. Start with 30 damage if detonated during the first 0.5 seconds, scale linearly to 145 damage over 1 second, and deal max damage for the last 0.5 seconds or something like that (the numbers can be tweaked). Like that you can't kill workers (or small armies) by dropping onto them and shooting point blank before insta-leaving. It forces you to shoot from further away giving your opponent chance to react, and also leave the disruptor out vulnerable longer, while still allowing for zoning and picking off lurkers from far away.
On January 13 2018 05:18 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 05:12 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 05:07 ArtyK wrote:
Expected changes for the stalker, welcome revert on ghosts, not sure if that's enough of a nerf for hydras.
But please pleeaaaaaaaaaaase stop using the old blizzard times for balance update, it's been more than 2 years since the game use real time...this literally makes no sense Everything in the engine still uses the old Blizzard time. All they did was convert the in-game display (which is why you end up with odd quirks like the hour 0 appearing at the front of the timer after 43 minutes). and why would it make sense not to convert in the feedback??? They're not not adressing the balance team but the players, who are used to the timings written ingame and on liquipedia, and those are real time.
Because that's the numbers they're working in from day to day. They could try to convert the feedback, but they'd probably forget half the time which would be way worse. Using engine numbers is unambiguous at least (or should be. But I think they actually sometimes use real time which confuses things. I think the mine changes were listed with real time for example...).
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On January 13 2018 05:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 05:15 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 05:06 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Seems reasonable. Disruptors still aren't worth building even with this change though.
Patching right after Leipzig and before Pyeongchang makes the timing of the patch really tight, but I guess there isn't any better window. They didn't mention any specific change for the Disruptor, just that "we’re looking into various ways to address this issue." And I agree that there really isn't a good window of time to push this patch live, but imo many of these changes should've been done in the offseason anyhow. On January 13 2018 05:12 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 05:07 ArtyK wrote:
Expected changes for the stalker, welcome revert on ghosts, not sure if that's enough of a nerf for hydras.
But please pleeaaaaaaaaaaase stop using the old blizzard times for balance update, it's been more than 2 years since the game use real time...this literally makes no sense Everything in the engine still uses the old Blizzard time. All they did was convert the in-game display (which is why you end up with odd quirks like the hour 0 appearing at the front of the timer after 43 minutes). I think some people don't understand how hard it is to completely refector something as deeply embedded as the time presumably is in the source code. One way I think would be to remove the delay but to scale the damage of the disruptor ball with time. Start with 30 damage if detonated during the first 0.5 seconds, scale linearly to 145 damage over 1 second, and deal max damage for the last 0.5 seconds or something like that (the numbers can be tweaked). Like that you can't kill workers (or small armies) by dropping onto them and shooting point blank before insta-leaving. It forces you to shoot from further away giving your opponent chance to react, and also leave the disruptor out vulnerable longer, while still allowing for zoning and picking off lurkers from far away. Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 05:18 ArtyK wrote:On January 13 2018 05:12 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 05:07 ArtyK wrote:
Expected changes for the stalker, welcome revert on ghosts, not sure if that's enough of a nerf for hydras.
But please pleeaaaaaaaaaaase stop using the old blizzard times for balance update, it's been more than 2 years since the game use real time...this literally makes no sense Everything in the engine still uses the old Blizzard time. All they did was convert the in-game display (which is why you end up with odd quirks like the hour 0 appearing at the front of the timer after 43 minutes). and why would it make sense not to convert in the feedback??? They're not not adressing the balance team but the players, who are used to the timings written ingame and on liquipedia, and those are real time. Because that's the numbers they're working in from day to day. They could try to convert the feedback, but they'd probably forget half the time which would be way worse. Using engine numbers is unambiguous at least (or should be. But I think they actually sometimes use real time which confuses things. I think the mine changes were listed with real time for example...).
yeah i think they used old values and real time values in that same feedback
Just need PR DKim back to do this 1 minute job
i just think its especially confusing for people interested in the values without necessarily knowing of how it worked before lotv
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The team is doing a really good job with balancing.
It's starting to feel like David Kim leaving the team was a really good call.
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OMG keep the repair drone!!!!
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On January 13 2018 05:21 StarscreamG1 wrote:
welcome back shitty stalker. At least theu could kept the +2 upgrades. Oh well...less variety again.
+2 damage upgrade is changed to +1+1 (vs armoured)
It was great to have a unit on par with the Hydralisk and the Marine even if only lasted a little while 
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Kinda sad to see the repair drone go, but those are nice changes all around.
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rip stalker, was nice having an actual solid unit from gateways (that you still needed to micro, not amove like other "core" units).
At least revert distruptor - any previous version would be fine.
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On January 13 2018 06:02 OsaX Nymloth wrote:
rip stalker, was nice having an actual solid unit from gateways (that you still needed to micro, not amove like other "core" units).
At least revert distruptor - any previous version would be fine.
Because amoving marines into banes and storms works every time amirite?
Regarding the stalker, 15 damage was fine by itself but not in the context of double forge and storm. Strong gateway must be paired with weaker tech, or else you get an OP race.
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On January 13 2018 05:21 StarscreamG1 wrote:
welcome back shitty stalker. At least theu could kept the +2 upgrades. Oh well...less variety again.
Variety, when every second toss is massing stalkers...
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Lot's of nice stuff here, but i really really REALLLY disagree with bringing the autoturret back.
The raven is a bit weak at the moment, yes, but that doesn't mean the role its supposed to play is wrong. The repair drone heals too slowly, and shredder missles are in general a little off, but autoturrets were cancer to TvZ, and bringing them back will once again ruin the banshee's role in the matchup.
Currently, mutas are dead in TvZ, and zergs are more or less forced into making hydras. The problem with autoturrets is that they can do steady, safe damage without much counterplay or risk of losing the raven. Theres been so many games Ive seen where zerg just needs to accept that each raven will get 15 kills because the way the meta is makes it impossible to get Air to Air damage without compromising your composition.
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I would rather they nerf the lurker than the hydra for pvz, but I'm not sure if lurkers are really a problem in tvz or hydras are op in tvz so I don't know if they're trying to nerf both matchups with the hydra change.
Lurker definitely feels like the bigger problem to me as a protoss.
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Nothing to address the mech cancer. No Zergs want to deal with it while Terrans complains they don't play it but still play it anyway given it is too strong. Then, nerf hydras because why not, make the mech stronger. Frankly, Zergs have no choice but go for hydras because mutas are trash and expensive to deal with bio or thors. Roaches are not scalable vs immortals archons charged. What else can Zergs do?
The auto-turret is purely cancer. It is a like pest that you cannot get rid of. Liberators harassing mineral lines is apparently not enough.
People praise the current balance team but I bet the difference. I applaud them for their responsiveness but again only they do is listening to balance whining from pros while I feel like none of them actually play the game to feel the pain of playing vs some stupid balance issues.
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On January 13 2018 06:28 Vutalisk wrote:
Nothing to address the mech cancer. No Zergs want to deal with it while Terrans complains they don't play it but still play it anyway given it is too strong. Then, nerf hydras because why not, make the mech stronger. Frankly, Zergs have no choice but go for hydras because mutas are trash and expensive to deal with bio or thors. Roaches are not scalable vs immortals archons charged. What else can Zergs do?
The auto-turret is purely cancer. It is a like pest that you cannot get rid of. Liberators harassing mineral lines is apparently not enough.
People praise the current balance team but I bet the difference. I applaud them for their responsiveness but again only they do is listening to balance whining from pros while I feel like none of them actually play the game to feel the pain of playing vs some stupid balance issues.
At the pro level vipers have proven eminently capable of dealing with mech pushes, as does zerg tier three when games reach that stage.
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On January 13 2018 06:28 Vutalisk wrote:
Nothing to address the mech cancer. No Zergs want to deal with it while Terrans complains they don't play it but still play it anyway given it is too strong. Then, nerf hydras because why not, make the mech stronger. Frankly, Zergs have no choice but go for hydras because mutas are trash and expensive to deal with bio or thors. Roaches are not scalable vs immortals archons charged. What else can Zergs do?
The auto-turret is purely cancer. It is a like pest that you cannot get rid of. Liberators harassing mineral lines is apparently not enough.
People praise the current balance team but I bet the difference. I applaud them for their responsiveness but again only they do is listening to balance whining from pros while I feel like none of them actually play the game to feel the pain of playing vs some stupid balance issues. and yet zerg wins everything?
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On January 13 2018 06:28 Vutalisk wrote:
only they do is listening to balance whining from pros while I feel like none of them actually play the game to feel the pain of playing vs some stupid balance issues.
None of them is good enough to lose because of balance issues.
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On January 13 2018 06:28 Vutalisk wrote:
Nothing to address the mech cancer. No Zergs want to deal with it while Terrans complains they don't play it but still play it anyway given it is too strong. Then, nerf hydras because why not, make the mech stronger. Frankly, Zergs have no choice but go for hydras because mutas are trash and expensive to deal with bio or thors. Roaches are not scalable vs immortals archons charged. What else can Zergs do?
The auto-turret is purely cancer. It is a like pest that you cannot get rid of. Liberators harassing mineral lines is apparently not enough.
People praise the current balance team but I bet the difference. I applaud them for their responsiveness but again only they do is listening to balance whining from pros while I feel like none of them actually play the game to feel the pain of playing vs some stupid balance issues.
Uh what? ZvMech is balanced at the top level. These changes to hydras and ravens will help bring bio back.
I think the balance team is doing a great job. 4.0 fixed the design and now they are fixing some of the balance issues that resulted from the design fix.
On January 13 2018 06:42 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 06:28 Vutalisk wrote:
only they do is listening to balance whining from pros while I feel like none of them actually play the game to feel the pain of playing vs some stupid balance issues. None of them is good enough to lose because of balance issues.
He said pros, so I think he's talking about Major, TY, Inno, etc. Who are indeed good enough.
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A pro -T buff in a middle of a GSL (poor herO), what a surprise.
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On January 13 2018 04:41 pvsnp wrote:
Lastly, we saw a post on Team Liquid which proposed some adjustments to the Adept and Disruptor units to make them easier to manage and control. We think changes like this could be positive, so we want to try them out. Currently, Disruptors do not display range indicators unless you have a single one selected and are actively targeting with the Purification Nova ability. This can make it difficult to calculate the Purification Nova’s range. We want to try displaying the range indicator for all Disruptors while they’re selected to make it easier for players to calculate maximum distance for Purification Nova. As for Adepts, the fact that they stop moving after using the Psionic Transfer ability means their controls are a bit unclear. We want to try and change the Adept so that it will continue with its last issued command instead of simply stopping.
nice to see Blizzard read that excellent post.. and can has the ability to discern an excellent post from other posts.
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On January 13 2018 06:43 pvsnp wrote:
He said pros, so I think he's talking about Major, TY, Inno, etc. Who are indeed good enough.
He was talking about the balance team not playing the game.
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On January 13 2018 06:49 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 06:43 pvsnp wrote:
He said pros, so I think he's talking about Major, TY, Inno, etc. Who are indeed good enough. He was talking about the balance team not playing the game.
Oh, that the balance team isn't good enough to have balance issues affect them, I get it.
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No, please keep nerfing Protoss. Great. I WANT MY GOD DAMN KHAYDARIAN AMULET.
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On January 13 2018 06:28 Vutalisk wrote:
Nothing to address the mech cancer. No Zergs want to deal with it while Terrans complains they don't play it but still play it anyway given it is too strong. Then, nerf hydras because why not, make the mech stronger. Frankly, Zergs have no choice but go for hydras because mutas are trash and expensive to deal with bio or thors. Roaches are not scalable vs immortals archons charged. What else can Zergs do?
The auto-turret is purely cancer. It is a like pest that you cannot get rid of. Liberators harassing mineral lines is apparently not enough.
People praise the current balance team but I bet the difference. I applaud them for their responsiveness but again only they do is listening to balance whining from pros while I feel like none of them actually play the game to feel the pain of playing vs some stupid balance issues.
Yeah, you need to make a few vipers and you will roll mech pretty easily or at least trade evenly which is to the zergs advantage
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On January 13 2018 06:48 Tyrhanius wrote:
A pro -T buff in a middle of a GSL (poor herO), what a surprise.
Whether GSL Ro32 Group H gets played on the current patch or not is an interesting question. They mentioned January 29th which usually means NA gets patched on the 30th, and EU on the 31st, but I don't recall when KR gets patched. Hopefully it's on the previous patch for consistency. At the very least I hope the players know which patch it'll be on, so they can practice.
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Auto Turret for Ravens
if the Raven needs an early game boost the Auto Turret can provide that. I don't want the Raven to be a viable attack option throughout the entire game because Terran already has many many airborne attack options.
So please have the Auto Turret's produced by teh Raven not take on the upgrades Terran players use to upgrade Air, Vehicle or Infantry. So in the end game when many units are 3,3 the Auto Turrets will be much weaker compared to in the early game.
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On January 13 2018 06:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Auto Turret for Ravens
if the Raven needs an early game boost the Auto Turret can provide that. I don't want the Raven to be a viable attack option throughout the entire game because Terran already has many many airborne attack options.
So please have the Auto Turret's produced by teh Raven not take on the upgrades Terran players use to upgrade Air, Vehicle or Infantry. So in the end game when many units are 3,3 the Auto Turrets will be much weaker compared to in the early game.
Could be wrong, but I thought Auto Turrets already didn't benefit from upgrades (except for Structure Armor). With no Seeker missiles I doubt people will mass ravens in the late game anyways.
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Australia18228 Posts
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On January 13 2018 07:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 06:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Auto Turret for Ravens
if the Raven needs an early game boost the Auto Turret can provide that. I don't want the Raven to be a viable attack option throughout the entire game because Terran already has many many airborne attack options.
So please have the Auto Turret's produced by teh Raven not take on the upgrades Terran players use to upgrade Air, Vehicle or Infantry. So in the end game when many units are 3,3 the Auto Turrets will be much weaker compared to in the early game. Could be wrong, but I thought Auto Turrets already didn't benefit from upgrades (except for Structure Armor). With no Seeker missiles I doubt people will mass ravens in the late game anyways.
Hi sec auto tracking will once again have a valid description!
Well, partially valid at least, since PDDs are still out.
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This balance patch is excellent, really alot of good stuff on the agenda. I think delaying the Hydralisk power spike will really do alot to slow down the momentum they can give Zerg in the mid game against Protoss. The extra time will give Protoss the ability to either field bigger armies or to get some other type of counter measure in place.
Also, really glad to see auto turret back, as a Zerg I hated them but like the team is saying, Raven's in their current form just aren't worth building, they need some type of immediate offensive capability.
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On January 13 2018 05:57 Musicus wrote:
Kinda sad to see the repair drone go, but those are nice changes all around.
Good riddance if you ask me.
Loving these changes. Hope to see them all go through to test and tweak them some more later if needed and any problems arise.
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Hopefully raven openers don't become super common again in TvT so i can still open cloak banshee regularly
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unwinnable zvp incoming ;d
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On January 13 2018 07:16 Nerchio wrote:
unwinnable zvp incoming ;d
lurker all-in or lurker all-in ?
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On January 13 2018 07:20 Tyrhanius wrote:lurker all-in or lurker all-in ?
I prefer ling drops
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Recall change is stupid and unneeded.
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On January 13 2018 07:16 Nerchio wrote:
unwinnable zvp incoming ;d
Foreign protosses are almost worse than foreign terrans right now, so you have to cut them some slack.
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On January 13 2018 07:29 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Recall change is stupid and unneeded.
It's literally one second and you are the only one who seems to care. Somehow, I don't think it will break the game.
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On January 13 2018 07:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Foreign protosses are almost worse than foreign terrans right now, so you have to cut them some slack.
Neeb in NA qualifier (ok it's NA but) : 10-1 vs Scarlett, Masa, Noregret, JohnSnow.
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On January 13 2018 07:38 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 07:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 07:16 Nerchio wrote:
unwinnable zvp incoming ;d Foreign protosses are almost worse than foreign terrans right now, so you have to cut them some slack. Neeb in NA qualifier (ok it's NA but) : 10-1 vs Scarlett, Masa, Noregret, JohnSnow.
Neeb's the reason there is an 'almost' in that sentence.
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On January 13 2018 07:42 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 07:38 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 07:16 Nerchio wrote:
unwinnable zvp incoming ;d Foreign protosses are almost worse than foreign terrans right now, so you have to cut them some slack. Neeb in NA qualifier (ok it's NA but) : 10-1 vs Scarlett, Masa, Noregret, JohnSnow. Neeb's the reason there is an 'almost' in that sentence.
Neeb is the reason WCS events aren't ZvZ finals almost every time
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It's cool that they are using a few team liquid suggestions in the game with adept and disruptor, its not often a community suggestion gets used. Too bad they aren't looking at widow mine though, there was an idea that the upgrade would make them invisible again while on cool down, so they would be better in the mid and late game.
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On January 13 2018 07:50 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 07:42 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 07:38 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 07:16 Nerchio wrote:
unwinnable zvp incoming ;d Foreign protosses are almost worse than foreign terrans right now, so you have to cut them some slack. Neeb in NA qualifier (ok it's NA but) : 10-1 vs Scarlett, Masa, Noregret, JohnSnow. Neeb's the reason there is an 'almost' in that sentence. Neeb is the reason WCS events aren't ZvZ finals almost every time
WCS austin : could be Major vs Nerchio finals, but Neeb eliminated Major
WCS Jönköping : Neeb eliminated kelhazur
It's more, Neeb is the reason why T foreigners doesn't reach finals of WCS
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Man it was nice for the few months when stalkers were great.
After we told them reverting the change was bad they listened. I guess they don't care now and just want to revert it. It's not like winrates or bio was that unbalanced, easily in the accepted balance.
I furiously hate the comment "Stalkers overlapping more with Adepts for the early game anti-light unit role", like come on don't tell me how to use my unit. You realize we build stalkers because it's the only early game protoss unit that can deal with terran bs well? (mines, medivacs, liberators, cyclones, all things that adepts are bad vs.) Adepts aren't even that great early game without rushing their upgrade.
I'll be doing that adept allins now a lot of my PvTs.
The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected.
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For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
The repair drone at least gave mech the chance to move around the map a lot better. This change promotes full turtling to 20 ravens for mass autoturret spam. It's just so cost efficient. And because of the big energy drain guess what? The Terran will turtle the whole game as he did before and wait for the ravens to charge up their energy!
And it's shit to play like this and shit to play against it!
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On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ.
Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ?
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On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ?
Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro.
Horrendous analogy.
Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that.
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"Professional Viewer" perspective here. I look at balance from the perspective of making sure that all units have a role to play in the game, and get used at all levels of play. When I start noticing that players don't use units, it concerns me.
Although I do feel that the old Raven had more use than the new Raven, I'm not so sure bringing back the Auto-Turret is the way to balance the unit. The issue I see is that none of the abilities that the Raven has really impacts a battle in a meaningful way. When you think about it, any Abducted unit is going to be a dead unit. It's especially useful for ripping Lurkers out of the ground and wearing away the expensive units of an enemy army. And, when the Viper is out of energy, it just goes back and gets more. High Templar are a bit different, but Psionic Storm is horrendously unforgiving against a player that isn't microing well. That, and it just does a lot of damage when used properly. And when the High Templar are out of energy, they can become Archons. Ghosts can keep fighting as a decent anti-light unit. Infestors are probably similar to Ravens, and that's why I haven't seen them used as much lately. But when Ravens (and Infestors) run out of energy, they just have to sit there. I'm purposefully leaving out Oracles because it's more of a harass unit, and I don't think anyone here is questioning their usefulness.
The other issue is that when you think about it, Raven abilities overlap Ghost abilities. Interference Matrix is really meant to disable mechanical or psionic units, but there's a purpose overlap there with EMP. I can either disable a Viper for 10 seconds, or I can wipe its energy clean with EMPs. Both effectively do the same thing.
Repair Drones are cool, but they need to travel. I think we would find a lot more use out of them if they were tethered to the Raven, and if the Raven dies, they stay in that spot. Or, they attach themselves to the nearest Raven.
Anti-Armor Missile - Easily the most interesting ability the Raven has, but right now it does nothing significant in a battle. I guess I just don't get the "Activation Time" on it. The Seeker Missile made sense since its damage stacked and it would annihilate armies, but the Anti-Armor Missile doesn't do enough damage to really see that happen. Abduct is instant, Blinding Cloud is instant, Psionic Storm is instant, EMP, Parasitic Bomb, and Fungal Growth are fast, but Anti-Armor Missiles are slow. There is lots to play around with here, but I'd like to see the ability made to be a little faster and more instant.
And no, not calling for any nerfs whatsoever to the other caster units. I just want to make sure they're useful enough to get used.
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On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy.
ouch!
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I thought the balance will be mostly about TvP.
We end up with many changes to ZvT, I think it will bring bio back, as well as muta ling bane.
Which is good to have more variety in the match-up.
But apart for the stalker nerf and the ghost change how will TvP be affected? Protoss players will still have huge advantage in upgrades in the match-up, the compensation tool for the MSC are good in PvT, so even if the stalker won't be that good vs bio protoss players will still be able to go for collosus stalker storm, as well as chargelot immortal archon storm, and other ways of playing. And they will still benefit from the upgrade advantage in the mid game (and I'm talking about till 15 min. into the game). May be heavy gateway compositions are hurt a bit, but stalkers with +3 will have mor DPS vs armored stuff then the current stalkers, so stalkers in the late game won't be that bad. I think its not enough for PvT.
In PvZ it seems like protoss players will have an easier time getting to their comfort zone. As no need to scout early hydra timings or worry about that will make protoss players skip more corners to get to their mid game and late game armies.
The raven will make its way back to TvT, may be that is good, and mutas will have more room in ZvZ, I don't know how good is that. But even though many changes make sense here, most of them don't address enough the real issue which is TvP, and makes ZvP a harder match-up to play in the mid game (by the time hydras get both upgrades the protoss will have storm, which makes hydras not that good, lurkers will be the way to go, but if so massing immortals is all a protoos need, it also makes SG openers even more viable in PvZ, so there won't be that much variety in the early game). The real issue for PvZ is the early elevators, not the hydras, and with the changes ling drops will be even more important for the zerg to make sure the protoss doesn't rush its tech. It can make the match-up even more coin-flippy then it is now.
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On January 13 2018 07:58 youngjiddle wrote:
The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected.
"balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in"
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On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 07:58 youngjiddle wrote:
The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected. "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in"
1. Hates all the nerfs to Protoss.
2. Loves all the nerfs to Zerg.
Gee, I wonder which race this guy plays?
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On January 13 2018 08:07 Ranari wrote:"Professional Viewer" perspective here. I look at balance from the perspective of making sure that all units have a role to play in the game, and get used at all levels of play. When I start noticing that players don't use units, it concerns me. Although I do feel that the old Raven had more use than the new Raven, I'm not so sure bringing back the Auto-Turret is the way to balance the unit. The issue I see is that none of the abilities that the Raven has really impacts a battle in a meaningful way. When you think about it, any Abducted unit is going to be a dead unit. It's especially useful for ripping Lurkers out of the ground and wearing away the expensive units of an enemy army. And, when the Viper is out of energy, it just goes back and gets more. High Templar are a bit different, but Psionic Storm is horrendously unforgiving against a player that isn't microing well. That, and it just does a lot of damage when used properly. And when the High Templar are out of energy, they can become Archons. Ghosts can keep fighting as a decent anti-light unit. Infestors are probably similar to Ravens, and that's why I haven't seen them used as much lately. But when Ravens (and Infestors) run out of energy, they just have to sit there. I'm purposefully leaving out Oracles because it's more of a harass unit, and I don't think anyone here is questioning their usefulness. The other issue is that when you think about it, Raven abilities overlap Ghost abilities. Interference Matrix is really meant to disable mechanical or psionic units, but there's a purpose overlap there with EMP. I can either disable a Viper for 10 seconds, or I can wipe its energy clean with EMPs. Both effectively do the same thing. Repair Drones are cool, but they need to travel. I think we would find a lot more use out of them if they were tethered to the Raven, and if the Raven dies, they stay in that spot. Or, they attach themselves to the nearest Raven. Anti-Armor Missile - Easily the most interesting ability the Raven has, but right now it does nothing significant in a battle. I guess I just don't get the "Activation Time" on it. The Seeker Missile made sense since its damage stacked and it would annihilate armies, but the Anti-Armor Missile doesn't do enough damage to really see that happen. Abduct is instant, Blinding Cloud is instant, Psionic Storm is instant, EMP, Parasitic Bomb, and Fungal Growth are fast, but Anti-Armor Missiles are slow. There is lots to play around with here, but I'd like to see the ability made to be a little faster and more instant. And no, not calling for any nerfs whatsoever to the other caster units. I just want to make sure they're useful enough to get used.
I like your suggestions.
About the Repair Drone: How about it is a castable ability that produces NO drone. Instead, the raven goes into "healing mode" and repairs X amount of hp per second until the ability finishes (so for example the description would say: heals X hp per second. costs 75 mana and last X seconds). So it's mobile and still locked to the Raven.
I cant stress enough how much I think bringing back autoturrets is a terrible idea.
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Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
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On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there.
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On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:
Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
I'm glad that you agree that autoturrets are a terrible thing to bring back to the game.
Blizzard had hinted before that they dont want to see late game spellcasters vs spellcaster. Which is good in principle.
The reality though is that the High Templar and Viper utterly obliterate Terran late game and are just made without question.
At it's current state, Terran literally does not have a go-to late game unit.
Honestly they should just change the Battlecruiser attack to how it was in brood war. Single powerful shots that arent affected by armor so much. Then Terran has something actually scary in late game. Just keep the raven as a support unit and buff the battlecruiser somehow. I am partial about the old seeker to be honest. Maybe something inbetween the seeker and the newseeker would be good.
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On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 07:58 youngjiddle wrote:
The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected. "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in"
I'm not gonna mention every nerf and buff that I agree, I think poor performance of foreigner protoss player vs. zerg as well as 42% winrates over and over again should be more looked into instead of PvT. Also my PvT winrate shows that I am not favored if you want to see it. I did mention the hydra nerf too.
On January 13 2018 08:15 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote:On January 13 2018 07:58 youngjiddle wrote:
The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected. "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in" 1. Hates all the nerfs to Protoss. 2. Loves all the nerfs to Zerg. Gee, I wonder which race this guy plays?
like usual, just stop. where is your basic intelligence?
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On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 07:58 youngjiddle wrote:
The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected. "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in"
or maybe because the pvz winrate is worse then the tvp?
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On January 13 2018 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there.
Players will still spam ravens for the autoturrets in late game. Rapidfire trick and autoturrets from 20 ravens is bat-shit crazy.
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On January 13 2018 08:40 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 08:15 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote:On January 13 2018 07:58 youngjiddle wrote:
The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected. "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in" 1. Hates all the nerfs to Protoss. 2. Loves all the nerfs to Zerg. Gee, I wonder which race this guy plays? like usual, just stop. where is your basic intelligence?
Oh hey, it's you again!
I normally just read the post and ignore the poster name but when you immediately insulted me I double-checked the name and sure enough it's my old pal youngjiddle. Nobody else would start making personal attacks so quickly.
Stay classy, my friend.
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On January 13 2018 08:48 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 08:40 youngjiddle wrote:On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote:On January 13 2018 07:58 youngjiddle wrote:
The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected. "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in" I'm not gonna mention every nerf and buff that I agree, I think poor performance of foreigner protoss player vs. zerg as well as 42% winrates over and over again should be more looked into instead of PvT. Also my PvT winrate shows that I am not favored if you want to see it. I did mention the hydra nerf too. On January 13 2018 08:15 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote:On January 13 2018 07:58 youngjiddle wrote:
The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected. "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in" 1. Hates all the nerfs to Protoss. 2. Loves all the nerfs to Zerg. Gee, I wonder which race this guy plays? like usual, just stop. where is your basic intelligence? Oh hey, it's you again! I normally just read the post and ignore the poster name but when you immediately insulted me I double-checked the name and sure enough it's my old pal youngjiddle. Nobody else would start making personal attacks so quickly. Stay classy, my friend.
honest question.
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On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
no i prefer teh Raven as a support unit. Terran has too many air attack options.
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Please, someone, save this for posterity and when someone says "Blizzard doesn't listen to the community" link this update.
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On January 13 2018 08:47 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there. Players will still spam ravens for the autoturrets in late game. Rapidfire trick and autoturrets from 20 ravens is bat-shit crazy.
I highly doubt it. With no PDD and no Seeker Missile going for mass raven is asking for getting dived on by corruptors and losing everything.
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On January 13 2018 08:49 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 08:48 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:40 youngjiddle wrote:On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote:On January 13 2018 07:58 youngjiddle wrote:
The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected. "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in" I'm not gonna mention every nerf and buff that I agree, I think poor performance of foreigner protoss player vs. zerg as well as 42% winrates over and over again should be more looked into instead of PvT. Also my PvT winrate shows that I am not favored if you want to see it. I did mention the hydra nerf too. On January 13 2018 08:15 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote:On January 13 2018 07:58 youngjiddle wrote:
The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected. "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in" 1. Hates all the nerfs to Protoss. 2. Loves all the nerfs to Zerg. Gee, I wonder which race this guy plays? like usual, just stop. where is your basic intelligence? Oh hey, it's you again! I normally just read the post and ignore the poster name but when you immediately insulted me I double-checked the name and sure enough it's my old pal youngjiddle. Nobody else would start making personal attacks so quickly. Stay classy, my friend. honest question.
'Honest,' you say?
On December 22 2017 02:24 youngjiddle wrote:
fuck off tbh
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On January 13 2018 09:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 08:47 Psychobabas wrote:On January 13 2018 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there. Players will still spam ravens for the autoturrets in late game. Rapidfire trick and autoturrets from 20 ravens is bat-shit crazy. I highly doubt it. With no PDD and no Seeker Missile going for mass raven is asking for getting dived on by corruptors and losing everything.
Yes that is true but why wouldnt you want 15 ravens and their 60 autoturrets vs anything else in Terran late game where you already have your backbone of tanks, your sprinkle of hellbats, your thors. I am not saying that the terran will go full on raven but they sure can make 10-15 of them. And honestly, once it goes into really late and all it matters are orbitals, then the ravens can go up to 30 easily. There is no real reason not to do this. The 30 supply of ravens is so much superior vs the 5 thors you can make or anything else really. (I assume the player is using the rapid fire trick to deploy mass turrets in a blink of an eye.)
And this promotes turtle style mech which is just...
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On January 13 2018 09:33 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 09:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:47 Psychobabas wrote:On January 13 2018 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there. Players will still spam ravens for the autoturrets in late game. Rapidfire trick and autoturrets from 20 ravens is bat-shit crazy. I highly doubt it. With no PDD and no Seeker Missile going for mass raven is asking for getting dived on by corruptors and losing everything. Yes that is true but why wouldnt you want 15 ravens and their 60 autoturrets vs anything else in Terran late game where you already have your backbone of tanks, your sprinkle of hellbats, your thors. I am not saying that the terran will go full on raven but they sure can make 10-15 of them. There is no real reason not to do this. The 30 supply of ravens is so much superior vs the 5 thors you can make or anything else really. (I assume the player is using the rapid fire trick to deploy mass turrets in a blink of an eye.)
Even when Ravens had autoturrets, PDDs, and seekers, mass Raven only happened once in a blue moon at the professional level (in LotV). Transitioning to mass Raven takes too much time and too much gas.
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@Avilo I share your vision about the Terran late game in general but not your solutions about it.
For me I totally agree with the opinion of the guy that mentioned the Battlecruisers, Terran needs a buff fearsome unit, the Battlecruiser was supposed to be that unit but it's Cyclone-esque attack makes it non-viable for the sustain of late game, another option is to make the Battlecruiser able to atack while it is charging Yamato Cannon.
Talking about the Raven and as someone mentioned me (stealing my idea) is that you can lock the regeneration to the Raven and make it consume it's energy for HP AND if they will bring back Auto Turrets they can at least set some kind of anti-spam regulation like constructing them (like the carrier) or assign the Raven a single buff turret for cycle. Still I don't think the return of auto turret is a good idea.
And with the insta-cloack there is the end of my TvT bullshit Ghost in Main cheese. RIP.
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On January 13 2018 09:36 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 09:33 Psychobabas wrote:On January 13 2018 09:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:47 Psychobabas wrote:On January 13 2018 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there. Players will still spam ravens for the autoturrets in late game. Rapidfire trick and autoturrets from 20 ravens is bat-shit crazy. I highly doubt it. With no PDD and no Seeker Missile going for mass raven is asking for getting dived on by corruptors and losing everything. Yes that is true but why wouldnt you want 15 ravens and their 60 autoturrets vs anything else in Terran late game where you already have your backbone of tanks, your sprinkle of hellbats, your thors. I am not saying that the terran will go full on raven but they sure can make 10-15 of them. There is no real reason not to do this. The 30 supply of ravens is so much superior vs the 5 thors you can make or anything else really. (I assume the player is using the rapid fire trick to deploy mass turrets in a blink of an eye.) Even when Ravens had autoturrets, PDDs, and seekers, mass Raven only happened once in a blue moon at the professional level (in LotV). Transitioning to mass Raven takes too much time and too much gas.
Absolutely but I am talking about ladder here. The games we play. If Blizzard was balancing according to pro gamers only then the ravens wouldnt even be touched. Which they clearly arent.
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On January 13 2018 09:33 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 09:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:47 Psychobabas wrote:On January 13 2018 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there. Players will still spam ravens for the autoturrets in late game. Rapidfire trick and autoturrets from 20 ravens is bat-shit crazy. I highly doubt it. With no PDD and no Seeker Missile going for mass raven is asking for getting dived on by corruptors and losing everything. Yes that is true but why wouldnt you want 15 ravens and their 60 autoturrets vs anything else in Terran late game where you already have your backbone of tanks, your sprinkle of hellbats, your thors. I am not saying that the terran will go full on raven but they sure can make 10-15 of them. There is no real reason not to do this. The 30 supply of ravens is so much superior vs the 5 thors you can make or anything else really. (I assume the player is using the rapid fire trick to deploy mass turrets in a blink of an eye.) And this promotes turtle style mech which is just...
Hmm... I wasn't really thinking of TvT since mass raven TvT almost never happened at the highest level pre-patch. Interference Matrix might change things somewhat, but I do think there's enough trading in TvTs that massing ravens won't be easy. Though vikings (no PDD or Seeker) and ghosts (for EMP) might actually be decent against ravens now.
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I saw some of replies on my post and I get it "getting to vipers and problem solved". The part "getting to vipers" already makes me to flip the table the fact you need to get Hive tech just to deal with spamming tier-1 (hellion) tier-2 (tanks, thors) units composition. The hive does take time and Terran can push early especially in smaller maps. You have no vipers then you are screwed. Vipers are not cheap. They are energy-based units as well so you can't just spam spells. Also, Terrans are not stupid. They do build vikings/thors to deal with vipers. Yah, Parasitic Bomb can deal with vikings but then Terrans just land them (very quickly as well with servos upgrade) which is basically a LOL moment in the face of the Z. Blind cloud is only 6 seconds and if the Terrans spread the tanks well, you will never trade well enough given you have to chew through the layers of hellbats and thors to even get to the tanks to begin with. By then, everything is blasted to pieces thanks to tanks! On top of that, too much minerals in the bank, let build turrets everywhere as well. One abduct under those turrets you basically kill a tank/thor and trade for a viper. That is "good" trade right there!
Maybe I'm just a trash player so I need to "get good" or whatever but the problem with "one unit to deal the entire composite with 4/5 different units" is just ridiculous. Anyway, my ranting doesn't matter given who am I to talk but at least I'm here to entertain some folks.
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On January 13 2018 09:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 09:33 Psychobabas wrote:On January 13 2018 09:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:47 Psychobabas wrote:On January 13 2018 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team.
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play.
You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make.
Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so.
But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place.
Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation.
By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair.
IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc.
What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced.
Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy.
Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own.
The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well.
Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes.
There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early."
That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting.
As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc.
Bring back the raven and Terran lategame.
Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there. Players will still spam ravens for the autoturrets in late game. Rapidfire trick and autoturrets from 20 ravens is bat-shit crazy. I highly doubt it. With no PDD and no Seeker Missile going for mass raven is asking for getting dived on by corruptors and losing everything. Yes that is true but why wouldnt you want 15 ravens and their 60 autoturrets vs anything else in Terran late game where you already have your backbone of tanks, your sprinkle of hellbats, your thors. I am not saying that the terran will go full on raven but they sure can make 10-15 of them. There is no real reason not to do this. The 30 supply of ravens is so much superior vs the 5 thors you can make or anything else really. (I assume the player is using the rapid fire trick to deploy mass turrets in a blink of an eye.) And this promotes turtle style mech which is just... Hmm... I wasn't really thinking of TvT since mass raven TvT almost never happened at the highest level pre-patch. Interference Matrix might change things somewhat, but I do think there's enough trading in TvTs that massing ravens won't be easy. Though vikings (no PDD or Seeker) and ghosts (for EMP) might actually be decent against ravens now.
As a meching Terran since the beginning of SC2. I should be happy with the autoturrets but I do not like this direction since it will make me to just sit in my base once again, take expansions one by one, turtle up and wait for my enemy to engage me.
Win or lose that is the most efficient way to play mech in my opinion if that change comes through. Why wouldnt I wait for the enemy to come to me with my full energy ravens filled with autoturrets. Obvious exception is protoss and their air fleet (or is it? with the new proposed interference matrix duration buff). But TvT and TvZ is pretty much set in stone for me already.
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On January 13 2018 09:48 Vutalisk wrote:
I saw some of replies on my post and I get it "getting to vipers and problem solved". The part "getting to vipers" already makes me to flip the table the fact you need to get Hive tech just to deal with spamming tier-1 (hellion) tier-2 (tanks, thors) units composition. The hive does take time and Terran can push early especially in smaller maps. You have no vipers then you are screwed. Vipers are not cheap. They are energy-based units as well so you can't just spam spells. Also, Terrans are not stupid. They do build vikings/thors to deal with vipers. Yah, Parasitic Bomb can deal with vikings but then Terrans just land them (very quickly as well with servos upgrade) which is basically a LOL moment in the face of the Z. Blind cloud is only 6 seconds and if the Terrans spread the tanks well, you will never trade well enough given you have to chew through the layers of hellbats and thors to even get to the tanks to begin with. By then, everything is blasted to pieces thanks to tanks! On top of that, too much minerals in the bank, let build turrets everywhere as well. One abduct under those turrets you basically kill a tank/thor and trade for a viper. That is "good" trade right there!
Maybe I'm just a trash player so I need to "get good" or whatever but the problem with "one unit to deal the entire composite with 4/5 different units" is just ridiculous. Anyway, my ranting doesn't matter given who am I to talk but at least I'm here to entertain some folks.
Sorry but you talk like Broodlords and Swarmhosts didn't exist.
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On January 13 2018 09:48 Vutalisk wrote:
I saw some of replies on my post and I get it "getting to vipers and problem solved". The part "getting to vipers" already makes me to flip the table the fact you need to get Hive tech just to deal with spamming tier-1 (hellion) tier-2 (tanks, thors) units composition. The hive does take time and Terran can push early especially in smaller maps. You have no vipers then you are screwed. Vipers are not cheap. They are energy-based units as well so you can't just spam spells. Also, Terrans are not stupid. They do build vikings/thors to deal with vipers. Yah, Parasitic Bomb can deal with vikings but then Terrans just land them (very quickly as well with servos upgrade) which is basically a LOL moment in the face of the Z. Blind cloud is only 6 seconds and if the Terrans spread the tanks well, you will never trade well enough given you have to chew through the layers of hellbats and thors to even get to the tanks to begin with. By then, everything is blasted to pieces thanks to tanks! On top of that, too much minerals in the bank, let build turrets everywhere as well. One abduct under those turrets you basically kill a tank/thor and trade for a viper. That is "good" trade right there!
Maybe I'm just a trash player so I need to "get good" or whatever but the problem with "one unit to deal the entire composite with 4/5 different units" is just ridiculous. Anyway, my ranting doesn't matter given who am I to talk but at least I'm here to entertain some folks.
Mech is balanced in TvZ. It's also a frustrating composition to deal with–and to play–for a lot of people. Which is why a lot of Zergs and a lot of Terrans both prefer bio TvZ being the meta.
With any luck, this update will help bio make a comeback.
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Soon zerg will only be able to defend until deathball army in every matchup, with no viable pressure builds or threatening all-ins. With no unit composition choices. The current cyclones and banshees make roach pressure worthless versus terran unless they get completely blind sided. Roach/ravager pressure is also terrible versus protoss for various reasons. Roach play is almost never seen in ZvP or ZvT anymore. Infestors or swarmhosts are almost never seen, exept some infestors to complement the deathball army. Mutalisks are almost never seen anymore.
Zergs viable playstyle are getting slimmer and slimmer. All they have left is hydra ling bane, and by nerfing hydra upgrades. you are making aggressive hydras weaker, lowering zerg strategies even more.
I understand ZvP hydra all-ins are pretty strong, but look at the number of protoss all-ins.. They have so many, all made strong because of the power of warp-prism.
I really think warp-prism might need to be looked at, the pick-up range specifically, or the speed.
Protoss and terran have so many diverse openings that are viable against zerg and dont put them all-in, while zerg has pretty much no versatility.
It would be nice to be able to do something else than hydra bane into hive tech deathball once in a while. But it seems there is no chance of that ever happening at this rate.
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One word : SAD. It just makes me sad.
The stalker was finally a good unit for its cost.. Aaaaand it's gone already. After what, not even 2 months ?
And for what reason if not for the sake of Terran whine... Again. The winrates in PvT weren't even alarming (i.e Protoss winrates between 50%-55%).. it was just Protoss favored, for the first time in almost a year. But as always, it's inacceptable for the race that has the most followers in this community, and thus, cries the loudest..
For the rest, hydralisk nerf is good, even though I'm afraid it won't be enough (Please remember hydralisks single handedly stopped Terrans from going bio in TvZ and broke the PvZ to a point where the Protoss winrate in the matchup has turned into a joke).
The raven needed a buff, it was in a really bad spot.. But bringing back the auto turret.. Meh.. Would have prefered a buff to the new abilities.. Clearly interference matrix doesnt last long enough, everybody can see that, while the ability itself is great.
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Good luck trying to beat mid-game tank pushes with shit Hydras again. Those 6 months of the 8 year history of this game where they were actually good units was fun, back to going for a Ravager all-in or Muta/Ling/Bane and losing because Zerg can't compete with Terran in a macro game.
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Edit:
Just give back the old Marauder.
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On January 13 2018 10:03 Snakestyle1 wrote:
Soon zerg will only be able to defend until deathball army in every matchup, with no viable pressure builds or threatening all-ins. With no unit composition choices. The current cyclones and banshees make roach pressure worthless versus terran unless they get completely blind sided. Roach/ravager pressure is also terrible versus protoss for various reasons. Roach play is almost never seen in ZvP or ZvT anymore. Infestors or swarmhosts are almost never seen, exept some infestors to complement the deathball army. Mutalisks are almost never seen anymore.
Zergs viable playstyle are getting slimmer and slimmer. All they have left is hydra ling bane, and by nerfing hydra upgrades. you are making aggressive hydras weaker, lowering zerg strategies even more.
I understand ZvP hydra all-ins are pretty strong, but look at the number of protoss all-ins.. They have so many, all made strong because of the power of warp-prism.
I really think warp-prism might need to be looked at, the pick-up range specifically, or the speed.
Protoss and terran have so many diverse openings that are viable against zerg and dont put them all-in, while zerg has pretty much no versatility.
It would be nice to be able to do something else than hydra bane into hive tech deathball once in a while. But it seems there is no chance of that ever happening at this rate.
Protoss and Terrans allin Zergs because they dont want to deal with the Zerg late game or the usual hydralingbane flood. The nerf delays that flood. Also, Zerg has so many tools to scout for allins...
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On January 13 2018 10:04 Snarosc wrote:
One word : SAD. It just makes me sad.
The stalker was finally a good unit for its cost.. Aaaaand it's gone already. After what, not even 2 months ?
And for what reason if not for the sake of Terran whine... Again. The winrates in PvT weren't even alarming (i.e Protoss winrates between 50%-55%).. it was just Protoss favored, for the first time in almost a year. But as always, it's inacceptable for the race that has the most followers in this community, and thus, cries the loudest..
For the rest, hydralisk nerf is good, even though I'm afraid it won't be enough (Please remember hydralisks single handedly stopped Terrans from going bio in TvZ and broke the PvZ to a point where the Protoss winrate in the matchup has turned into a joke).
The raven needed a buff, it was in a really bad spot.. But bringing back the auto turret.. Meh.. Would have prefered a buff to the new abilities.. Clearly interference matrix doesnt last long enough, everybody can see that, while the ability itself is great.
Am I the only one who finds "SAD!" absolutely hilarious?
Now I'm imagining a Trump tweet about SC2 balance....
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On January 13 2018 10:13 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 10:04 Snarosc wrote:
One word : SAD. It just makes me sad.
The stalker was finally a good unit for its cost.. Aaaaand it's gone already. After what, not even 2 months ?
And for what reason if not for the sake of Terran whine... Again. The winrates in PvT weren't even alarming (i.e Protoss winrates between 50%-55%).. it was just Protoss favored, for the first time in almost a year. But as always, it's inacceptable for the race that has the most followers in this community, and thus, cries the loudest..
For the rest, hydralisk nerf is good, even though I'm afraid it won't be enough (Please remember hydralisks single handedly stopped Terrans from going bio in TvZ and broke the PvZ to a point where the Protoss winrate in the matchup has turned into a joke).
The raven needed a buff, it was in a really bad spot.. But bringing back the auto turret.. Meh.. Would have prefered a buff to the new abilities.. Clearly interference matrix doesnt last long enough, everybody can see that, while the ability itself is great.
Am I the only one who finds "SAD!" absolutely hilarious? Now I'm imagining a Trump tweet about SC2 balance....
Personally, I find it hilarious that in this thread alone there are balance whines by players from every race :D
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On January 13 2018 10:52 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 10:13 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 10:04 Snarosc wrote:
One word : SAD. It just makes me sad.
The stalker was finally a good unit for its cost.. Aaaaand it's gone already. After what, not even 2 months ?
And for what reason if not for the sake of Terran whine... Again. The winrates in PvT weren't even alarming (i.e Protoss winrates between 50%-55%).. it was just Protoss favored, for the first time in almost a year. But as always, it's inacceptable for the race that has the most followers in this community, and thus, cries the loudest..
For the rest, hydralisk nerf is good, even though I'm afraid it won't be enough (Please remember hydralisks single handedly stopped Terrans from going bio in TvZ and broke the PvZ to a point where the Protoss winrate in the matchup has turned into a joke).
The raven needed a buff, it was in a really bad spot.. But bringing back the auto turret.. Meh.. Would have prefered a buff to the new abilities.. Clearly interference matrix doesnt last long enough, everybody can see that, while the ability itself is great.
Am I the only one who finds "SAD!" absolutely hilarious? Now I'm imagining a Trump tweet about SC2 balance.... Personally, I find it hilarious that in this thread alone there are balance whines by players from every race :D
It means the dev team is on the right track! A good compromise is when both parties are dissatisfied. 
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On January 13 2018 10:06 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Edit:
Just give back the old Marauder.
yes please!
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Protoss players dying against mmm+libs and ling+bane+hydra for two years. When we get a stalker that scales well it lasts a month.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
PS-For god sake, nerf blink, buff marauders or tanks, but let us have a strong gateway unit !!
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David Kim forgive them,they don't know what they doing. "one big mess" and now what? we are rolling back to the backup of the patch 3.9? And bring back already old marauders.
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On January 13 2018 10:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 10:52 ggrrg wrote:On January 13 2018 10:13 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 10:04 Snarosc wrote:
One word : SAD. It just makes me sad.
The stalker was finally a good unit for its cost.. Aaaaand it's gone already. After what, not even 2 months ?
And for what reason if not for the sake of Terran whine... Again. The winrates in PvT weren't even alarming (i.e Protoss winrates between 50%-55%).. it was just Protoss favored, for the first time in almost a year. But as always, it's inacceptable for the race that has the most followers in this community, and thus, cries the loudest..
For the rest, hydralisk nerf is good, even though I'm afraid it won't be enough (Please remember hydralisks single handedly stopped Terrans from going bio in TvZ and broke the PvZ to a point where the Protoss winrate in the matchup has turned into a joke).
The raven needed a buff, it was in a really bad spot.. But bringing back the auto turret.. Meh.. Would have prefered a buff to the new abilities.. Clearly interference matrix doesnt last long enough, everybody can see that, while the ability itself is great.
Am I the only one who finds "SAD!" absolutely hilarious? Now I'm imagining a Trump tweet about SC2 balance.... Personally, I find it hilarious that in this thread alone there are balance whines by players from every race :D It means the dev team is on the right track! A good compromise is when both parties are dissatisfied.
Fair is when everyone is equally unhappy
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On January 13 2018 11:08 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Protoss players dying against mmm+libs and ling+bane+hydra for two years. When we get a stalker that scales well it lasts a month.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
PS-For god sake, nerf blink, buff marauders or tanks, but let us have a strong gateway unit !!
This is a communty update not a patch, and people say terran players are the whiniest. These changes are far from definitive considering half are "we are looking into this" without any specific change mentioned.
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Zerg only got slower, and altho I cant say I know the anser is it really intressting to pick order on Hydra speed and Hydra range?
Should just been "Hydra upgrade now take twice as long to research" to make it simpler and not confuse anyone that any flexibility or possible upside can be gained.
I mean it not like it an intressting change that in the end is worse, or change what you want to do, it just make it slower and worse period. It by no means a nail in the coffin but it plain boring.
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Brazil419 Posts
Zerg already has to insta react to any mech agression or lose half mineral line to shift clicked liberators or 4 helions. Mech harass take no more skill than adept shade, and now blizzard want to give terran back another 1 click, free damage, no risk harass comming from an unit that zerg can never catch. This is their brilliant idea of balance.
And that hydra nerf will just bring mass airtoss back again, nice major patch Blizzard. Comming next month: Reaper grenade nerf reverted.
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I was going to write a longer post than this, but I'm not feeling it atm. In short: fuck the Auto-Turret.
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On January 13 2018 11:22 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 10:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 13 2018 10:52 ggrrg wrote:On January 13 2018 10:13 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 10:04 Snarosc wrote:
One word : SAD. It just makes me sad.
The stalker was finally a good unit for its cost.. Aaaaand it's gone already. After what, not even 2 months ?
And for what reason if not for the sake of Terran whine... Again. The winrates in PvT weren't even alarming (i.e Protoss winrates between 50%-55%).. it was just Protoss favored, for the first time in almost a year. But as always, it's inacceptable for the race that has the most followers in this community, and thus, cries the loudest..
For the rest, hydralisk nerf is good, even though I'm afraid it won't be enough (Please remember hydralisks single handedly stopped Terrans from going bio in TvZ and broke the PvZ to a point where the Protoss winrate in the matchup has turned into a joke).
The raven needed a buff, it was in a really bad spot.. But bringing back the auto turret.. Meh.. Would have prefered a buff to the new abilities.. Clearly interference matrix doesnt last long enough, everybody can see that, while the ability itself is great.
Am I the only one who finds "SAD!" absolutely hilarious? Now I'm imagining a Trump tweet about SC2 balance.... Personally, I find it hilarious that in this thread alone there are balance whines by players from every race :D It means the dev team is on the right track! A good compromise is when both parties are dissatisfied. Fair is when everyone is equally unhappy
i mean this is starcraft, we certainly can't expect people to be happy
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On January 13 2018 11:58 xTJx wrote:
Zerg already has to insta react to any mech agression or lose half mineral line to shift clicked liberators or 4 helions. Mech harass take no more skill than adept shade, and now blizzard want to give terran back another 1 click, free damage, no risk harass comming from an unit that zerg can never catch. This is their brilliant idea of balance.
And that hydra nerf will just bring mass airtoss back again, nice major patch Blizzard. Comming next month: Reaper grenade nerf reverted.
Zergling runbys are even less skill than Hellions or Adepts.
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On January 13 2018 12:47 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 11:58 xTJx wrote:
Zerg already has to insta react to any mech agression or lose half mineral line to shift clicked liberators or 4 helions. Mech harass take no more skill than adept shade, and now blizzard want to give terran back another 1 click, free damage, no risk harass comming from an unit that zerg can never catch. This is their brilliant idea of balance.
And that hydra nerf will just bring mass airtoss back again, nice major patch Blizzard. Comming next month: Reaper grenade nerf reverted. Zergling runbys are even less skill than Hellions or Adepts.
They're also far less effective.
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On January 13 2018 12:49 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 12:47 Boggyb wrote:On January 13 2018 11:58 xTJx wrote:
Zerg already has to insta react to any mech agression or lose half mineral line to shift clicked liberators or 4 helions. Mech harass take no more skill than adept shade, and now blizzard want to give terran back another 1 click, free damage, no risk harass comming from an unit that zerg can never catch. This is their brilliant idea of balance.
And that hydra nerf will just bring mass airtoss back again, nice major patch Blizzard. Comming next month: Reaper grenade nerf reverted. Zergling runbys are even less skill than Hellions or Adepts. They're also far less effective.
Cracklings are far more effective
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On January 13 2018 13:00 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 12:49 Solar424 wrote:On January 13 2018 12:47 Boggyb wrote:On January 13 2018 11:58 xTJx wrote:
Zerg already has to insta react to any mech agression or lose half mineral line to shift clicked liberators or 4 helions. Mech harass take no more skill than adept shade, and now blizzard want to give terran back another 1 click, free damage, no risk harass comming from an unit that zerg can never catch. This is their brilliant idea of balance.
And that hydra nerf will just bring mass airtoss back again, nice major patch Blizzard. Comming next month: Reaper grenade nerf reverted. Zergling runbys are even less skill than Hellions or Adepts. They're also far less effective. Cracklings are far more effective
By the time you have cracklings, the bases you would harass are all planetary fortresses. Not only that, but if you run your zerglings near their blue flame hellion roaming around the map all game long, its a pretty 1 sided trade.
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I'm not looking forward to constantly pulling my workers away from auto-turrets again. Otherwise really good changes.
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Haha wow so they actually made Stalker light DPS scale worse than it has even been. Didn't even think that was possible. Why not just completely revert the attack speed change but add +1 to armor and +1 to armor scaling? e.g. 10+1 light 15+2 armor so that it is an actual buff to the unit?
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On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that.
And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight...
It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too....
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On January 13 2018 17:14 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that. And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight... It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too....
Yes, a Cyclone has tons more DPS than a Queen.........meaning it's stupid to compare them at all.
Way to miss the very obvious point. I guess all a whiner can see is whine, I mean I was obviously just whining about how Queens are so OP and how Cyclones suck and not in fact talking about what a horrendous analogy you made between queens and cyclones.....
That was sarcasm, by the way.
Point: CYCLONE IS NOT QUEEN
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On January 13 2018 05:08 MiCroLiFe wrote:
greaT! Now buff bio in any small way so WE arent forced to play mech. Please. I hate mech.
This patch does buff bio, bio struggles to do midgame dmg in tvz because of how fast zergs can get hydras online, splitting the upgrade gives Terran a better window to contest hydras with bio before they must have tanks to trim down hydra numbers.
Raven with turret gives bio a few more openings in the tvz mu. The loss of raven openings hurt bio tvz since it made bio players very predictable in the early game. Ravens opens work well with bio because ravens cost gas and bio infrastructure costs minerals building a raven or 2 is a lot more affordable for bio players than some of the other units you can make off a 1-1-1. Raven builds were a very smooth way to spend your resources when going bio.
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Auto turret harassing is annoying. Maybe turrets could cost 75 energy?
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Zerg were so happy with widow mine becoming less usefull in worker harass and Raven nerfed out of the game. Now WM are cheaper and autoturret is back, can't wait to see what aLive Maru INno and co will inflict to zerg players  quite a good patch overall, I wish they had removed matrix intead of Repair Drone
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 13 2018 12:49 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 12:47 Boggyb wrote:On January 13 2018 11:58 xTJx wrote:
Zerg already has to insta react to any mech agression or lose half mineral line to shift clicked liberators or 4 helions. Mech harass take no more skill than adept shade, and now blizzard want to give terran back another 1 click, free damage, no risk harass comming from an unit that zerg can never catch. This is their brilliant idea of balance.
And that hydra nerf will just bring mass airtoss back again, nice major patch Blizzard. Comming next month: Reaper grenade nerf reverted. Zergling runbys are even less skill than Hellions or Adepts. They're also far less effective.
Is that why we don't build walls?
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On January 13 2018 17:22 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 17:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that. And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight... It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too.... Yes, a Cyclone has tons more DPS than a Queen.........meaning it's stupid to compare them at all. Way to miss the very obvious point. I guess all a whiner can see is whine, I mean I was obviously just whining about how Queens are so OP and how Cyclones suck and not in fact talking about what a horrendous analogy you made between queens and cyclones..... That was sarcasm, by the way. Point: CYCLONE IS NOT QUEEN
Zerg deals with every air pressure on early game with one unit, queen.
And honestly, they do quite well for that, so let me laugh when you tell me that cyclon anti-air is ridiculous...
It's completly fine, but of course when terran doesn't have a super OP unit they always pretend they're "weak"...
How can you tell that, 30 dps vs ground, 50 vs armored, shoot while moving, 180 hp, dps of a queen with 15 tracking range lel.
So yeah, you're a whiner.
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On January 13 2018 10:03 Snakestyle1 wrote:
Soon zerg will only be able to defend until deathball army in every matchup, with no viable pressure builds or threatening all-ins. With no unit composition choices. The current cyclones and banshees make roach pressure worthless versus terran unless they get completely blind sided. Roach/ravager pressure is also terrible versus protoss for various reasons. Roach play is almost never seen in ZvP or ZvT anymore. Infestors or swarmhosts are almost never seen, exept some infestors to complement the deathball army. Mutalisks are almost never seen anymore.
Zergs viable playstyle are getting slimmer and slimmer. All they have left is hydra ling bane, and by nerfing hydra upgrades. you are making aggressive hydras weaker, lowering zerg strategies even more.
I understand ZvP hydra all-ins are pretty strong, but look at the number of protoss all-ins.. They have so many, all made strong because of the power of warp-prism.
I really think warp-prism might need to be looked at, the pick-up range specifically, or the speed.
Protoss and terran have so many diverse openings that are viable against zerg and dont put them all-in, while zerg has pretty much no versatility.
It would be nice to be able to do something else than hydra bane into hive tech deathball once in a while. But it seems there is no chance of that ever happening at this rate.
Oh? i dont know many viable tvz openings queens seems to deffend everything quite well untill hydras a moves
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and those who complain about turret harass.. Come on? Put a spore there, put a qeen there. its not that hard.. Drops is tvz is almost gone theese days. we need somthing to harass whit..
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To be perfectly honest, Repair Drone has been the only really useful spell of the new Raven, to see it potentially swapped with the Auto Turret is just... meh. I'd love to have at least SOME offensive capabilities, but they should either give the full Lockdown (meaning units cannot even move when hit by Interference Matrix) or maybe try Irradiate instead of the Scrambler Missile and keep the Repair Drone. Raven is just underhwelming in it's current state compared to other t3 spellcasters in the game.
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To me it feels like Balance Team has great understanding of what the problems are, but are kind of clueless about right way to fix them. While Stalker change I think is great, but Hydra we just need to revert the hp back, because that cause all the problems, the unit just works by itself too well. Nerf libs so they don't deal 80 till +3 if that is the concern, libs are kind of too strong anyway.
And Raven change is one that I'm the most upset about. Casters that spam free units is exactly the design we need to delete from the game at any possible point, it creates stalls, isn't interesting from strategy perspective. Raven is much worse, and I think it's fine, but obviously the problem is in its cost, you want me to build 1-2 in the early game, make it cost 100 or 150 gas, and I might, that's all Raven needs right now.
And mech still needs to spend 200 gas to start upgrading. So many building costs are taken straight from brood war, but for some reason armory that besides upgrades does nothing can't be 100/50. Even split air plating again, but I'm sure mech would suddenly become way more viable than it currently is (now it's just that strict timing push strategy, that has little chance vs proper late game if your 9:30 max out timing doesn't kill 2-3 bases).
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I like most of the changes, but the autoturret really should not return.
This ability is one of the few cases where I'd say it's too frustrating to play against to keep in the game.
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It would be better if they removed the anti-armor missile and replaced it with seeker missile instead.
Terran do not need the auto-turret but they a counter to mass Carrier/Tempest/HT and BroodLord/Corruptor.
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On January 13 2018 22:13 MockHamill wrote:
It would be better if they removed the anti-armor missile and replaced it with seeker missile instead.
Terran do not need the auto-turret but they a counter to mass Carrier/Tempest/HT and BroodLord/Corruptor.
This is actually a good suggestion.
Raven with interference matrix, Repair drone and Seeker missile would be very interesting.
Anti-armor missile seems very weird anyway.
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Globally, good direction of changes.
But, please, show some love for bio play (and players). A small buff to bio openings would be appreciated, like, reducing the time needed to research stim then shield (or merge the two ), witch actually is like infinite.
Also, i feel sorry for casual toss players having to learn yet another new rhythm to kite with stalkers.
Finally, the auto-turrets comeback is welcome for the balance, but still suxx design-wise. The issue is queen anti-air range, (buffed for libs) making auto-turret the only safe&efficient early TvZ bio-harass. (like, why the f**k you would get a banshee to get 5 times less kills, use 5 times more APMs and still maybe loose it... ).
Maybe some intelligent, non TvT-breaking, buff to banshee could do the job ? Something to make it less fragile vs queens ? ... More armor ? very slight regen for first hit ? bit more speed with cloack ? better acceleration ? dunno.
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On January 13 2018 23:46 xongnox wrote:
Globally, good direction of changes.
But, please, show some love for bio play (and players). A small buff to bio openings would be appreciated, like, reducing the time needed to research stim then shield (or merge the two ), witch actually is like infinite.
Also, i feel sorry for casual toss players having to learn yet another new rhythm to kite with stalkers.
Finally, the auto-turrets comeback is welcome for the balance, but still suxx design-wise. The issue is queen anti-air range, (buffed for libs) making auto-turret the only safe&efficient early TvZ bio-harass. (like, why the f**k you would get a banshee to get 5 times less kills, use 5 times more APMs and still maybe loose it... ).
Maybe some intelligent, non TvT-breaking, buff to banshee could do the job ? Something to make it less fragile vs queens ? ... More armor ? very slight regen for first hit ? bit more speed with cloack ? better acceleration ? dunno.
I feel bad for Gemini who has to go back and change all of his protoss build of the week's because changes keep getting made to chrono, stalkers huge nerf, ect.
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On January 13 2018 19:53 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 17:22 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 17:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that. And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight... It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too.... Yes, a Cyclone has tons more DPS than a Queen.........meaning it's stupid to compare them at all. Way to miss the very obvious point. I guess all a whiner can see is whine, I mean I was obviously just whining about how Queens are so OP and how Cyclones suck and not in fact talking about what a horrendous analogy you made between queens and cyclones..... That was sarcasm, by the way. Point: CYCLONE IS NOT QUEEN Zerg deals with every air pressure on early game with one unit, queen. And honestly, they do quite well for that, so let me laugh when you tell me that cyclon anti-air is ridiculous... It's completly fine, but of course when terran doesn't have a super OP unit they always pretend they're "weak"... How can you tell that, 30 dps vs ground, 50 vs armored, shoot while moving, 180 hp, dps of a queen with 15 tracking range lel. So yeah, you're a whiner.
I did not post the OP. I did not whine about Cyclone AA being a "complete joke."
Click on the "Show nested quote" line and reread the original post that started this entire conversation. See the name there? It is not pvsnp. It is Psychobabas.
I did not enter this conversation until you compared Cyclone AA to Queen AA and suggested Queens needed a buff. I called that a "horrendous analogy," because Cyclones are not Queens.
"Cyclone is not Queen" is the entire point of my post. Nothing about balance, or about nerfs, or buffs, or whatever. Just the fact that two units in the game are completely different, fulfilling completely different roles in completely different situations.
Zero whine. Go accuse somebody else.
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On January 14 2018 03:59 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 19:53 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 17:22 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 17:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that. And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight... It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too.... Yes, a Cyclone has tons more DPS than a Queen.........meaning it's stupid to compare them at all. Way to miss the very obvious point. I guess all a whiner can see is whine, I mean I was obviously just whining about how Queens are so OP and how Cyclones suck and not in fact talking about what a horrendous analogy you made between queens and cyclones..... That was sarcasm, by the way. Point: CYCLONE IS NOT QUEEN Zerg deals with every air pressure on early game with one unit, queen. And honestly, they do quite well for that, so let me laugh when you tell me that cyclon anti-air is ridiculous... It's completly fine, but of course when terran doesn't have a super OP unit they always pretend they're "weak"... How can you tell that, 30 dps vs ground, 50 vs armored, shoot while moving, 180 hp, dps of a queen with 15 tracking range lel. So yeah, you're a whiner. I did not post the OP. I did not whine about Cyclone AA being a "complete joke." Click on the "Show nested quote" line and reread the original post that started this entire conversation. See the name there? It is not pvsnp. It is Psychobabas. I did not enter this conversation until you compared Cyclone AA to Queen AA and suggested Queens needed a buff. I called that a "horrendous analogy," because Cyclones are not Queens. "Cyclone is not Queen" is the entire point of my post. Nothing about balance, or about nerfs, or buffs, or whatever. Just the fact that two units in the game are completely different, fulfilling completely different roles in completely different situations. Zero whine. Go accuse somebody else.
lol
User was warned for this post
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Oh no not the double raven opening in tvt please
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On January 14 2018 05:03 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 03:59 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 19:53 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 17:22 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 17:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that. And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight... It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too.... Yes, a Cyclone has tons more DPS than a Queen.........meaning it's stupid to compare them at all. Way to miss the very obvious point. I guess all a whiner can see is whine, I mean I was obviously just whining about how Queens are so OP and how Cyclones suck and not in fact talking about what a horrendous analogy you made between queens and cyclones..... That was sarcasm, by the way. Point: CYCLONE IS NOT QUEEN Zerg deals with every air pressure on early game with one unit, queen. And honestly, they do quite well for that, so let me laugh when you tell me that cyclon anti-air is ridiculous... It's completly fine, but of course when terran doesn't have a super OP unit they always pretend they're "weak"... How can you tell that, 30 dps vs ground, 50 vs armored, shoot while moving, 180 hp, dps of a queen with 15 tracking range lel. So yeah, you're a whiner. I did not post the OP. I did not whine about Cyclone AA being a "complete joke." Click on the "Show nested quote" line and reread the original post that started this entire conversation. See the name there? It is not pvsnp. It is Psychobabas. I did not enter this conversation until you compared Cyclone AA to Queen AA and suggested Queens needed a buff. I called that a "horrendous analogy," because Cyclones are not Queens. "Cyclone is not Queen" is the entire point of my post. Nothing about balance, or about nerfs, or buffs, or whatever. Just the fact that two units in the game are completely different, fulfilling completely different roles in completely different situations. Zero whine. Go accuse somebody else. lol
Lmao
User was warned for this post
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So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker.
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On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker.
Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker?
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Brazil419 Posts
On January 13 2018 12:47 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 11:58 xTJx wrote:
Zerg already has to insta react to any mech agression or lose half mineral line to shift clicked liberators or 4 helions. Mech harass take no more skill than adept shade, and now blizzard want to give terran back another 1 click, free damage, no risk harass comming from an unit that zerg can never catch. This is their brilliant idea of balance.
And that hydra nerf will just bring mass airtoss back again, nice major patch Blizzard. Comming next month: Reaper grenade nerf reverted. Zergling runbys are even less skill than Hellions or Adepts.
Sick dude, you ignore all i wrote, reply to 1 phrase and without any arguments.
Come talk again when ling runbys kill half mineral line in 1 shot and can ignore any static defense.
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On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker?
You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game.
Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking.
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On January 14 2018 09:23 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker? You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game. Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking.
Funny how every single pro player disagrees with you entirely. Auto-turrets were fantastic harass which usually got a handful of drone kills in a game. Repair drones have some fringe use in the late game and repair at the rate of 2.5 SCVs.
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10 seconds?
i dont think people realize how good 6 seconds already is. 10 seconds vs protoss is insanity especially for the energy cost.
stalker... id need to play with first to have a full opinion on, disruptor obviously needs a change as no1 is using it at all, adepts ? not sure they really need a change, happy about the hydra change.
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On January 14 2018 03:59 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 19:53 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 17:22 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 17:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that. And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight... It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too.... Yes, a Cyclone has tons more DPS than a Queen.........meaning it's stupid to compare them at all. Way to miss the very obvious point. I guess all a whiner can see is whine, I mean I was obviously just whining about how Queens are so OP and how Cyclones suck and not in fact talking about what a horrendous analogy you made between queens and cyclones..... That was sarcasm, by the way. Point: CYCLONE IS NOT QUEEN Zerg deals with every air pressure on early game with one unit, queen. And honestly, they do quite well for that, so let me laugh when you tell me that cyclon anti-air is ridiculous... It's completly fine, but of course when terran doesn't have a super OP unit they always pretend they're "weak"... How can you tell that, 30 dps vs ground, 50 vs armored, shoot while moving, 180 hp, dps of a queen with 15 tracking range lel. So yeah, you're a whiner. I did not post the OP. I did not whine about Cyclone AA being a "complete joke." Click on the "Show nested quote" line and reread the original post that started this entire conversation. See the name there? It is not pvsnp. It is Psychobabas. I did not enter this conversation until you compared Cyclone AA to Queen AA and suggested Queens needed a buff. I called that a "horrendous analogy," because Cyclones are not Queens. "Cyclone is not Queen" is the entire point of my post. Nothing about balance, or about nerfs, or buffs, or whatever. Just the fact that two units in the game are completely different, fulfilling completely different roles in completely different situations. Zero whine. Go accuse somebody else.
Oh sorry you're used to do some many posts like these i haven't seen for once it's not yours.
Still, cyclon isn't queen remains a stupid argument...
Hey, ultras with 8 armors are fine, they're not marines, the two units in the game are completly different.
See ? It's a stupid way to argue.
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On January 14 2018 11:02 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 03:59 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 19:53 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 17:22 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 17:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that. And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight... It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too.... Yes, a Cyclone has tons more DPS than a Queen.........meaning it's stupid to compare them at all. Way to miss the very obvious point. I guess all a whiner can see is whine, I mean I was obviously just whining about how Queens are so OP and how Cyclones suck and not in fact talking about what a horrendous analogy you made between queens and cyclones..... That was sarcasm, by the way. Point: CYCLONE IS NOT QUEEN Zerg deals with every air pressure on early game with one unit, queen. And honestly, they do quite well for that, so let me laugh when you tell me that cyclon anti-air is ridiculous... It's completly fine, but of course when terran doesn't have a super OP unit they always pretend they're "weak"... How can you tell that, 30 dps vs ground, 50 vs armored, shoot while moving, 180 hp, dps of a queen with 15 tracking range lel. So yeah, you're a whiner. I did not post the OP. I did not whine about Cyclone AA being a "complete joke." Click on the "Show nested quote" line and reread the original post that started this entire conversation. See the name there? It is not pvsnp. It is Psychobabas. I did not enter this conversation until you compared Cyclone AA to Queen AA and suggested Queens needed a buff. I called that a "horrendous analogy," because Cyclones are not Queens. "Cyclone is not Queen" is the entire point of my post. Nothing about balance, or about nerfs, or buffs, or whatever. Just the fact that two units in the game are completely different, fulfilling completely different roles in completely different situations. Zero whine. Go accuse somebody else. Oh sorry you're used to do some many posts like these i haven't seen for once it's not yours. Still, cyclon isn't queen remains a stupid argument... Hey, ultras with 8 armors are fine, they're not marines, the two units in the game are completly different. See ? It's a stupid way to argue.
No problem, I usually assume Zerg whine comes from you too.
The only thing stupid about my argument is how you are trying to apply it. Proposing a Queen AA buff after OP complained about Cyclone AA makes no sense. Because they are completely disconnected in that context. Whether or not Cyclone AA should be buffed has absolutely nothing to do with how similar its AA DPS is with Queen AA DPS, because the interaction of “Cylcone vs air unit" is completely disconnected from the interaction of “Queen vs air unit." The fact that neither Cyclones nor Queens are air units means the "Cyclone vs Queen" interaction has nothing to do with the conversation.
What I said has nothing to do with balance. It wasn’t a justification for a buff/nerf, it has no bearing on whether or not Cyclones should actually be buffed/nerfed or not. I was just pointing out that Queens don’t belong in that conversation, so leaving them out is logical.
Ultras and Marines are completely different units, that’s true. But buffing Ultra armor to 8 will have a direct impact on the “Ultra vs Marine” interaction. So the fact that they are completely different units doesn’t matter here, because they interact directly and buffing one is an indirect nerf to the other. Marines absolutely belong in that conversation, so leaving them out is stupid.
Simply put:
I said Cyclone AA can never hit Queens ---> Leave Queens out of this (Logical)
You said Ultras hit Marines ---> Leave Marines out of this (Stupid)
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On January 14 2018 10:06 -Kyo- wrote:
10 seconds?
i dont think people realize how good 6 seconds already is. 10 seconds vs protoss is insanity especially for the energy cost.
stalker... id need to play with first to have a full opinion on, disruptor obviously needs a change as no1 is using it at all, adepts ? not sure they really need a change, happy about the hydra change.
That's a good point though I think TvT is a bigger concern than TvP when it comes to this ability. Being able to throw down 4 Interference Matrix just annihilates siege lines, drops etc, and causes the match-up to be all about the raven which isn't great imo. Especially with auto-turrets coming back it all seems rather unhealthy.
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On January 14 2018 09:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 09:23 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker? You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game. Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking. Funny how every single pro player disagrees with you entirely. Auto-turrets were fantastic harass which usually got a handful of drone kills in a game. Repair drones have some fringe use in the late game and repair at the rate of 2.5 SCVs.
Quoting pro opinions doesn't work like that buddy. Nice try though.
And if you don't get how strong the repair drone is (even though it's badly designed), i'm thinking you're the one not playing this game.
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On January 14 2018 18:16 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 09:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 09:23 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker? You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game. Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking. Funny how every single pro player disagrees with you entirely. Auto-turrets were fantastic harass which usually got a handful of drone kills in a game. Repair drones have some fringe use in the late game and repair at the rate of 2.5 SCVs. Quoting pro opinions doesn't work like that buddy. Nice try though. And if you don't get how strong the repair drone is (even though it's badly designed), i'm thinking you're the one not playing this game.
Ravens and auto-turret harass used to be the go-to opening in TvZ. You saw them basically every game. Whereas repair drones are barely ever seen. If you think repair drones are so strong why don't pros ever use them? Not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to someone as divorced from reality as you are.
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On January 14 2018 18:30 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 18:16 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 09:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 09:23 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker? You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game. Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking. Funny how every single pro player disagrees with you entirely. Auto-turrets were fantastic harass which usually got a handful of drone kills in a game. Repair drones have some fringe use in the late game and repair at the rate of 2.5 SCVs. Quoting pro opinions doesn't work like that buddy. Nice try though. And if you don't get how strong the repair drone is (even though it's badly designed), i'm thinking you're the one not playing this game. Ravens and auto-turret harass used to be the go-to opening in TvZ. You saw them basically every game. Whereas repair drones are barely ever seen. If you think repair drones are so strong why don't pros ever use them? Not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to someone as divorced form reality as you are.
Progamers aren't as proficient at mech play as the enlighted mechanic only savants of 5k mmr.
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On January 14 2018 10:06 -Kyo- wrote:
10 seconds?
i dont think people realize how good 6 seconds already is. 10 seconds vs protoss is insanity especially for the energy cost.
stalker... id need to play with first to have a full opinion on, disruptor obviously needs a change as no1 is using it at all, adepts ? not sure they really need a change, happy about the hydra change.
Atm the ability is completely useless because it lasts such a short time that it's always better to have more attacking units instead.
You deny 2-3 rounds of attacks with them and then your ravens are flying paperweights.
Only exception is siege tanks because of how important it is to close the distance vs them.
I doubt 10 seconds makes them worth building in any other matchup either.
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On January 14 2018 18:36 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 10:06 -Kyo- wrote:
10 seconds?
i dont think people realize how good 6 seconds already is. 10 seconds vs protoss is insanity especially for the energy cost.
stalker... id need to play with first to have a full opinion on, disruptor obviously needs a change as no1 is using it at all, adepts ? not sure they really need a change, happy about the hydra change. Atm the ability is completely useless because it lasts such a short time that it's always better to have more attacking units instead. You deny 2-3 rounds of attacks with them and then your ravens are flying paperweights. Only exception is siege tanks because of how important it is to close the distance vs them. I doubt 10 seconds makes them worth building in any other matchup either.
I think it has an okay chance of wrecking TvT though. Cyclone/Raven/Hellion every game new meta?
It might actually turn out to be playable in TvP eventually (though obviously not currently where pure gateway bullies terran really hard).
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On January 14 2018 18:30 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 18:16 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 09:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 09:23 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker? You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game. Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking. Funny how every single pro player disagrees with you entirely. Auto-turrets were fantastic harass which usually got a handful of drone kills in a game. Repair drones have some fringe use in the late game and repair at the rate of 2.5 SCVs. Quoting pro opinions doesn't work like that buddy. Nice try though. And if you don't get how strong the repair drone is (even though it's badly designed), i'm thinking you're the one not playing this game. Ravens and auto-turret harass used to be the go-to opening in TvZ. You saw them basically every game. Whereas repair drones are barely ever seen. If you think repair drones are so strong why don't pros ever use them? Not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to someone as divorced from reality as you are.
You really mastered the art of missing the point. The question isn't how good the turret is, but how good the raven is as a caster and how well it fits the role it needs to fit.
But since you seem competely oblivious to the fact that ravens as a late game unit are stronger with repair drones than with auto turrets (even though the repair drone is badly designed and should be removed), i'll stop trying to explain it since your only point appears to be ''but the pro aren't using it" (especially considering the pros aren't using the raven as a whole because the two other spells are extremely bad, repair drone-PDD-old seeker ravens would be incredibly imbalanced).
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On January 14 2018 11:39 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 11:02 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 14 2018 03:59 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 19:53 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 17:22 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 17:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that. And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight... It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too.... Yes, a Cyclone has tons more DPS than a Queen.........meaning it's stupid to compare them at all. Way to miss the very obvious point. I guess all a whiner can see is whine, I mean I was obviously just whining about how Queens are so OP and how Cyclones suck and not in fact talking about what a horrendous analogy you made between queens and cyclones..... That was sarcasm, by the way. Point: CYCLONE IS NOT QUEEN Zerg deals with every air pressure on early game with one unit, queen. And honestly, they do quite well for that, so let me laugh when you tell me that cyclon anti-air is ridiculous... It's completly fine, but of course when terran doesn't have a super OP unit they always pretend they're "weak"... How can you tell that, 30 dps vs ground, 50 vs armored, shoot while moving, 180 hp, dps of a queen with 15 tracking range lel. So yeah, you're a whiner. I did not post the OP. I did not whine about Cyclone AA being a "complete joke." Click on the "Show nested quote" line and reread the original post that started this entire conversation. See the name there? It is not pvsnp. It is Psychobabas. I did not enter this conversation until you compared Cyclone AA to Queen AA and suggested Queens needed a buff. I called that a "horrendous analogy," because Cyclones are not Queens. "Cyclone is not Queen" is the entire point of my post. Nothing about balance, or about nerfs, or buffs, or whatever. Just the fact that two units in the game are completely different, fulfilling completely different roles in completely different situations. Zero whine. Go accuse somebody else. Oh sorry you're used to do some many posts like these i haven't seen for once it's not yours. Still, cyclon isn't queen remains a stupid argument... Hey, ultras with 8 armors are fine, they're not marines, the two units in the game are completly different. See ? It's a stupid way to argue. No problem, I usually assume Zerg whine comes from you too. The only thing stupid about my argument is how you are trying to apply it. Proposing a Queen AA buff after OP complained about Cyclone AA makes no sense. Because they are completely disconnected in that context. Whether or not Cyclone AA should be buffed has absolutely nothing to do with how similar its AA DPS is with Queen AA DPS, because the interaction of “Cylcone vs air unit" is completely disconnected from the interaction of “Queen vs air unit." The fact that neither Cyclones nor Queens are air units means the "Cyclone vs Queen" interaction has nothing to do with the conversation. What I said has nothing to do with balance. It wasn’t a justification for a buff/nerf, it has no bearing on whether or not Cyclones should actually be buffed/nerfed or not. I was just pointing out that Queens don’t belong in that conversation, so leaving them out is logical. Ultras and Marines are completely different units, that’s true. But buffing Ultra armor to 8 will have a direct impact on the “Ultra vs Marine” interaction. So the fact that they are completely different units doesn’t matter here, because they interact directly and buffing one is an indirect nerf to the other. Marines absolutely belong in that conversation, so leaving them out is stupid. Simply put: I said Cyclone AA can never hit Queens ---> Leave Queens out of this (Logical) You said Ultras hit Marines ---> Leave Marines out of this (Stupid)
I'm not asking for queens buff i'm just ironic about the fact you or he says AA of cyclon is too weak.
And i'm talking about ultras and marines only to point out how this kind of argumentation can be used to say something stupid.
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auto-turrets are cancer in tvt, thats their biggest impact... better replace repair drone with PDD.
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Pretty crazy to me that Hydra's get their 10hp buff for free, which having an army of 30 hydras compounds to 300 bonus health the army otherwise didn't have, but the idea of giving combat shield to marines for free right out of the gate is ludicrous and would never be done. So what if it makes proxy rax too strong, terran needs some aggressive options to keep the other races honest. At the very least it could be combined with stimpack. Bio really needs some love, mech is just so boring to play every single game.
For an experimental thought, we could look at building fly time as a place to buff. This could help terran shave a few seconds off expanding, off of swapping buildings, it could make proxy barracks play a little more viable.. Overlord speed gets buffed in the early game, i see no reason not to consider terran building move speed as an avenue to look at. Over the course of a game the second or so shaved off each time swapping buildings around could see itself manifest in a slightly stronger terran compared to now. Not to mention with even with a sensor tower up there just literally isn't enough time to lift off an orbital and get it to safety from hydras if you're out of position, and mech can't defend everywhere on bigger maps like NVS. Just a thought.
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On January 13 2018 20:28 MiCroLiFe wrote:
and those who complain about turret harass.. Come on? Put a spore there, put a qeen there. its not that hard.. Drops is tvz is almost gone theese days. we need somthing to harass whit..
The frustrating thing about turret harass is that is virtually risk-free for Terran. As Zerg you just cannot hit the raven, and you know turrets will come again an again. This is a bad design.
Blizzard should reduce the casting range and/or the attack range, and then balance the dps accordingly.
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Oh no, I love the repair drone, it made me go back to playing terran, I hope they keep it in the game.
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On January 14 2018 21:52 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:
auto-turrets are cancer in tvt, thats their biggest impact... better replace repair drone with PDD.
I agree it s too safe and annoying, but if it can stop the mass cyclone
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On January 14 2018 19:40 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 18:30 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 18:16 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 09:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 09:23 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker? You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game. Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking. Funny how every single pro player disagrees with you entirely. Auto-turrets were fantastic harass which usually got a handful of drone kills in a game. Repair drones have some fringe use in the late game and repair at the rate of 2.5 SCVs. Quoting pro opinions doesn't work like that buddy. Nice try though. And if you don't get how strong the repair drone is (even though it's badly designed), i'm thinking you're the one not playing this game. Ravens and auto-turret harass used to be the go-to opening in TvZ. You saw them basically every game. Whereas repair drones are barely ever seen. If you think repair drones are so strong why don't pros ever use them? Not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to someone as divorced from reality as you are. You really mastered the art of missing the point. The question isn't how good the turret is, but how good the raven is as a caster and how well it fits the role it needs to fit. But since you seem competely oblivious to the fact that ravens as a late game unit are stronger with repair drones than with auto turrets (even though the repair drone is badly designed and should be removed), i'll stop trying to explain it since your only point appears to be ''but the pro aren't using it" (especially considering the pros aren't using the raven as a whole because the two other spells are extremely bad, repair drone-PDD-old seeker ravens would be incredibly imbalanced).
You don't have a point. All you've been doing is dogmatically asserting that repair drones are good without a shred of evidence when players like TY or MajOr (who admittedly are quite biased) have called the ability worthless.
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On January 14 2018 19:40 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 18:30 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 18:16 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 09:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 09:23 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker? You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game. Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking. Funny how every single pro player disagrees with you entirely. Auto-turrets were fantastic harass which usually got a handful of drone kills in a game. Repair drones have some fringe use in the late game and repair at the rate of 2.5 SCVs. Quoting pro opinions doesn't work like that buddy. Nice try though. And if you don't get how strong the repair drone is (even though it's badly designed), i'm thinking you're the one not playing this game. Ravens and auto-turret harass used to be the go-to opening in TvZ. You saw them basically every game. Whereas repair drones are barely ever seen. If you think repair drones are so strong why don't pros ever use them? Not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to someone as divorced from reality as you are. You really mastered the art of missing the point. The question isn't how good the turret is, but how good the raven is as a caster and how well it fits the role it needs to fit. But since you seem competely oblivious to the fact that ravens as a late game unit are stronger with repair drones than with auto turrets (even though the repair drone is badly designed and should be removed), i'll stop trying to explain it since your only point appears to be ''but the pro aren't using it" (especially considering the pros aren't using the raven as a whole because the two other spells are extremely bad, repair drone-PDD-old seeker ravens would be incredibly imbalanced).
To me it seems as if you are only thinking about the late game raven. The ravens with the auto turret harass that got 15 drone kills each as a median are, in my opinion, better. Terran players used ravens in every match-up because auto turrets had so much utility.
Playing vs another terran? Summon turrets to kill tanks or defend vs banshees.
Playing vs protoss? Turrets kill probes or protoss is forced to make unwanted pheonix to kill the raven.
Playing vs zerg? Turrets kill arond 15 drones before the raven is taken out.
Terran could go raven in every game and often get way more value than its cost. The raven without the turret, but with the repair drone, has not really any worth in the earlier stages of the game. The old raven opened up windows for terrans to attack a weakened foe whil the new one has to wait until the armies are big enough.
The auto turret killed stuff that at a time that made it very impactful. The repair drone might not get used because the game is over too early.
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On January 14 2018 19:53 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 11:39 pvsnp wrote:On January 14 2018 11:02 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 14 2018 03:59 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 19:53 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 17:22 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 17:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that. And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight... It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too.... Yes, a Cyclone has tons more DPS than a Queen.........meaning it's stupid to compare them at all. Way to miss the very obvious point. I guess all a whiner can see is whine, I mean I was obviously just whining about how Queens are so OP and how Cyclones suck and not in fact talking about what a horrendous analogy you made between queens and cyclones..... That was sarcasm, by the way. Point: CYCLONE IS NOT QUEEN Zerg deals with every air pressure on early game with one unit, queen. And honestly, they do quite well for that, so let me laugh when you tell me that cyclon anti-air is ridiculous... It's completly fine, but of course when terran doesn't have a super OP unit they always pretend they're "weak"... How can you tell that, 30 dps vs ground, 50 vs armored, shoot while moving, 180 hp, dps of a queen with 15 tracking range lel. So yeah, you're a whiner. I did not post the OP. I did not whine about Cyclone AA being a "complete joke." Click on the "Show nested quote" line and reread the original post that started this entire conversation. See the name there? It is not pvsnp. It is Psychobabas. I did not enter this conversation until you compared Cyclone AA to Queen AA and suggested Queens needed a buff. I called that a "horrendous analogy," because Cyclones are not Queens. "Cyclone is not Queen" is the entire point of my post. Nothing about balance, or about nerfs, or buffs, or whatever. Just the fact that two units in the game are completely different, fulfilling completely different roles in completely different situations. Zero whine. Go accuse somebody else. Oh sorry you're used to do some many posts like these i haven't seen for once it's not yours. Still, cyclon isn't queen remains a stupid argument... Hey, ultras with 8 armors are fine, they're not marines, the two units in the game are completly different. See ? It's a stupid way to argue. No problem, I usually assume Zerg whine comes from you too. The only thing stupid about my argument is how you are trying to apply it. Proposing a Queen AA buff after OP complained about Cyclone AA makes no sense. Because they are completely disconnected in that context. Whether or not Cyclone AA should be buffed has absolutely nothing to do with how similar its AA DPS is with Queen AA DPS, because the interaction of “Cylcone vs air unit" is completely disconnected from the interaction of “Queen vs air unit." The fact that neither Cyclones nor Queens are air units means the "Cyclone vs Queen" interaction has nothing to do with the conversation. What I said has nothing to do with balance. It wasn’t a justification for a buff/nerf, it has no bearing on whether or not Cyclones should actually be buffed/nerfed or not. I was just pointing out that Queens don’t belong in that conversation, so leaving them out is logical. Ultras and Marines are completely different units, that’s true. But buffing Ultra armor to 8 will have a direct impact on the “Ultra vs Marine” interaction. So the fact that they are completely different units doesn’t matter here, because they interact directly and buffing one is an indirect nerf to the other. Marines absolutely belong in that conversation, so leaving them out is stupid. Simply put: I said Cyclone AA can never hit Queens ---> Leave Queens out of this (Logical) You said Ultras hit Marines ---> Leave Marines out of this (Stupid) I'm not asking for queens buff i'm just ironic about the fact you or he says AA of cyclon is too weak. And i'm talking about ultras and marines only to point out how this kind of argumentation can be used to say something stupid.
That's good, because Queens don't need a buff. And I said nothing about Cyclone buffs.
Yes, of course the argument can be used to say something stupid if you take it out of context by trying to use it for Ultras and Marines. The original context was Cyclone AA and Queen AA, not Ultras and Marines.
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Just give the Raven 2-3 extra vision range have that extra range be the special thing about Ravens.
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Artosis and Tasteless in GSL commented on the Ravens perfectly IMO (During Scarlett vs aLive) Sure you can sink your gas into the battlecruiser liberator or ghost but the Raven is the Terrans main spellcasting unit you wanna have your gas sink into.
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Geez, I'm really bummed that the Stalker was "taken away". I'm not a pro player, I won't lose any money over it, but it was making the game playable for me. A bit subjective, but wanted to give my two cents.
RIP Stalker.
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On January 15 2018 07:25 Ryu3600 wrote:
Artosis and Tasteless in GSL commented on the Ravens perfectly IMO (During Scarlett vs aLive) Sure you can sink your gas into the battlecruiser liberator or ghost but the Raven is the Terrans main spellcasting unit you wanna have your gas sink into.
They actually said that the Raven *was* the unit to sink gas into, but now there is no real good option.
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No, what about... DEFENSIVE MATRIX.
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On January 14 2018 18:40 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 18:36 Charoisaur wrote:On January 14 2018 10:06 -Kyo- wrote:
10 seconds?
i dont think people realize how good 6 seconds already is. 10 seconds vs protoss is insanity especially for the energy cost.
stalker... id need to play with first to have a full opinion on, disruptor obviously needs a change as no1 is using it at all, adepts ? not sure they really need a change, happy about the hydra change. Atm the ability is completely useless because it lasts such a short time that it's always better to have more attacking units instead. You deny 2-3 rounds of attacks with them and then your ravens are flying paperweights. Only exception is siege tanks because of how important it is to close the distance vs them. I doubt 10 seconds makes them worth building in any other matchup either. I think it has an okay chance of wrecking TvT though. Cyclone/Raven/Hellion every game new meta? It might actually turn out to be playable in TvP eventually (though obviously not currently where pure gateway bullies terran really hard).
New raven was already quite good vs banshee and fast medivac builds now with longer lockdown and turrets instead of drones I think it will be a defining unit in the tvt metagame like it was pre nerfs, it won't win you early Viking fights any more but it will give you a very safe very stable way to open.
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Still no good arguments for the stalker nerf.
it's going back to being the worst unit in lotv. at least for toss.
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nah, they gave the strong Stalker a shot. it was a good idea. props to Blizz for giving it a shot. it didn't work and they explained why.
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It's easier to prepare for potential parasitic bomb by spreading your Vikings beforehand, and then Magic Boxing somewhat to avoid too much contamination. Do you think that a formation command that spreads units is too cheesY?
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On January 15 2018 12:29 WeddingEpisode wrote:
It's easier to prepare for potential parasitic bomb by spreading your Vikings beforehand, and then Magic Boxing somewhat to avoid too much contamination. Do you think that a formation command that spreads units is too cheesY?
It's anathema to the gameplay of sc2. It worked well in other rts games I've played though. In red alert three there was a button that made all your troops split in diffrent directions it was really usefull vs tanks because vehicles could run over infantry units to flatten them. But I think in an rts like sc2 where things are supposed to be hard and splitting micro is a differentiating skill for Terran players I don't think this solution would be alright with the player base.
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I'm not a huge fan of the recall change I like that the ability is strong and gives toss some room to move out on the map with out being completely Allin. I think there are a lot of ballance concerns in the pvt matchup right now but they don't stem from recall. Most of the problems are a result of chronoed upgrades being to strong, chronoed allins still being to strong after the last patch, widowmines not providing the critical reapeatable dmg that used to give Terran more room to do diffrent openings and still be able to hold allins, shield batteries still allowing for weird and powerfull allins. If Terran were able to more frequently reach midgame in alright shape the matchup would be a lot more balanced.
Stalker change is something but honestly it mostly helps with the ballance in macro games and those are less out of whack than the early game shenanigans Protoss can do right now granted it does help some. I'm not a fan of nerfing the stalker I realy liked the stronger stalker, I was really hoping bliz could find a solution to pvt without needing to nerf it.
Recall change is not deserved imo. Recall helps Protoss in pvz which they need since the matchup really leans towards Zerg. It's relevant in tvp but I don't think it's the source of the problems.
Ghost change is healthy but once agian it does not help the early game problems of Terran.
Raven change will help a bit, going ravens as an answer to Dts has felt awful without being able to go do some counter dmg with turrets.
I think bliz recognizes the problems but has yet to identify the right solutions. What those solutions are beats me though.
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Nerfing stalkers with 42.58% PvZ [Aligulac]. Good job.
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Another Zerg unit to fix.
Corruptors are very boring and slow. Don't feel good at their role at all, made for feel forced or to become Broodlord.
They don't need to be stronger in stats and the anti-building-acid is fine. But they could get a better chance to actually fight.
I would like to see a weaker form of "concussive shells" upgrade for Corruptors.
So harder to flee from them once battle started or just that minor slowdown on a mass-carrier attack.
Maybe extra needed if this Hydra-nerf comes true also.
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On January 15 2018 18:44 GothGirlGames wrote:
Another Zerg unit to fix.
Corruptors are very boring and slow. Don't feel good at their role at all, made for feel forced or to become Broodlord.
They don't need to be stronger in stats and the anti-building-acid is fine. But they could get a better chance to actually fight.
I would like to see a weaker form of "concussive shells" upgrade for Corruptors.
So harder to flee from them once battle started or just that minor slowdown on a mass-carrier attack.
Maybe extra needed if this Hydra-nerf comes true also.
Better to nerf Carriers directly since they are too strong in all matchups.
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I am happy they're trying to do something to the raven. Without it it just feels like Terran doesn't have a lategame, just an extended midgame.
I can understand some of the changes: Repair drone didn't really seem that good for mech, just a bit low on utility and not really something mech is truly looking for as you can also get some medivacs and hellbats. It also doesn't really feel like a fun ability to use so I won't really miss it that much. I don't know how much the autoturret leads to mass raven as a dps unit as that would seem undesirable. But the autoturret allowed terran to do some raven openings which seems like a nice bit of variety and it gives the raven some sort of consistent use.
I'm actually most excited for changes to the new seeker missile. If that ability was actually good, it could be very useful against zerg in the lategame as an actual bio support unit. In general reducing armor seems to have synergy with bio. It's just that right now the delay in the missile and the energy cost simply make it bad, despite the synergy. Maybe this allows terran to actually get a sort of competitive lategame army against Zerg, and I hope it'll be viable against Protoss too (despite high templars having feedback).
I don't really understand the point of the interference matrix. The raven itself is a very expensive unit, so you're at best temporarily disabling a slightly better unit, but after that the raven is useless while that unit is still alive and can still move. Using it for some nice cheese strats could be nice, but I don't know if this can have a serious role in the game. Maybe, combined with the new seeker missile, you can get Ravens in TvT and then disable some siege tanks, fire some seekers and then storm into a tank line with your bio.
Other changes seem decent tweaks to the balance patch. In general I do like the decisions here. Stalker was a bit over the top, hydra might be a tiny bit too dominant, raven as terran should be brought back so there's actually a lategame. Just cleaning up some of the aftershocks of the design patch.
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Is there any real argument for bringing back the auto turret, i think this completely ruins tvz in all honesty the auto turret harass was WAAAAAAY to strong for its investment imo, Zerg has no real way to deal with it and by the time u get pinged your base is under attack u already lose 5 to 8 workers.... ridiculous.. ontop of that your forcing zerg to pretty much go mutalisks, and absolutely garbage unit thanks to the thor :/
RIP, its sad to see in the poll that the votes are so close on weather this is a good or bad change, luckily people seem to have enough common sense so far to realize how horrible of a change bringing back auto turret actually is.
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On January 15 2018 22:35 Digitalz1 wrote:
Is there any real argument for bringing back the auto turret, i think this completely ruins tvz in all honesty the auto turret harass was WAAAAAAY to strong for its investment imo, Zerg has no real way to deal with it and by the time u get pinged your base is under attack u already lose 5 to 8 workers.... ridiculous.. ontop of that your forcing zerg to pretty much go mutalisks, and absolutely garbage unit thanks to the thor :/
RIP, its sad to see in the poll that the votes are so close on weather this is a good or bad change, luckily people seem to have enough common sense so far to realize how horrible of a change bringing back auto turret actually is.
I do not think is possible to lose 5-8 workers from an auto-turret. In TvT I do not think I have ever lost more than 2 workers from one Turret even though I am a slow 85 APM Diamond player.
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On January 15 2018 23:25 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2018 22:35 Digitalz1 wrote:
Is there any real argument for bringing back the auto turret, i think this completely ruins tvz in all honesty the auto turret harass was WAAAAAAY to strong for its investment imo, Zerg has no real way to deal with it and by the time u get pinged your base is under attack u already lose 5 to 8 workers.... ridiculous.. ontop of that your forcing zerg to pretty much go mutalisks, and absolutely garbage unit thanks to the thor :/
RIP, its sad to see in the poll that the votes are so close on weather this is a good or bad change, luckily people seem to have enough common sense so far to realize how horrible of a change bringing back auto turret actually is. I do not think is possible to lose 5-8 workers from an auto-turret. In TvT I do not think I have ever lost more than 2 workers from one Turret even though I am a slow 85 APM Diamond player.
I cant speak for tvt, but as someone with only 85 apm i find that hard to believe.... as a mid m2 zerg i can tell you for a fact losing atleast 3 to 4 workers each time it swoops in is very real issue. auto turrets kill drones FAST
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On January 15 2018 18:29 Nars_ wrote:
Nerfing stalkers with 42.58% PvZ [Aligulac]. Good job.
referencing Aligulac in 2018
actually they should keep the stalker buff
in fact, revert all adept changes -- in Blizzard we trust!
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On January 15 2018 18:29 Nars_ wrote:
Nerfing stalkers with 42.58% PvZ [Aligulac]. Good job. dosnt protoss goe for chargelots adeps and archons, + air in pvz?
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The real issue with PvZ is
1) Ridiculous un-upgraded overlord speed
2 sentries or 1 stalker should be able to kill mismicroed scoouting overlords
2) Pre - Lair drop ability
Terran pays for barracks, factory, starport, and medivac before drop available. That's a resource cost of 850 just to get a drop. Protoss pays for Gateway, Cyber-core, Robo facility, and Warp Prism before drop. That's a similar resource cost. But zerg? 25/25 conversion of an already conveiniently placed cheap unit with just Spawning pool / Evo-Chamber?
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On January 15 2018 23:44 Digitalz1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2018 23:25 MockHamill wrote:On January 15 2018 22:35 Digitalz1 wrote:
Is there any real argument for bringing back the auto turret, i think this completely ruins tvz in all honesty the auto turret harass was WAAAAAAY to strong for its investment imo, Zerg has no real way to deal with it and by the time u get pinged your base is under attack u already lose 5 to 8 workers.... ridiculous.. ontop of that your forcing zerg to pretty much go mutalisks, and absolutely garbage unit thanks to the thor :/
RIP, its sad to see in the poll that the votes are so close on weather this is a good or bad change, luckily people seem to have enough common sense so far to realize how horrible of a change bringing back auto turret actually is. I do not think is possible to lose 5-8 workers from an auto-turret. In TvT I do not think I have ever lost more than 2 workers from one Turret even though I am a slow 85 APM Diamond player. I cant speak for tvt, but as someone with only 85 apm i find that hard to believe.... as a mid m2 zerg i can tell you for a fact losing atleast 3 to 4 workers each time it swoops in is very real issue. auto turrets kill drones FAST
Keep in mind that guy also plays vs mediocre players who can't consistently and quickly throw down auto-turrets
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On January 15 2018 18:44 GothGirlGames wrote:
Another Zerg unit to fix.
Corruptors are very boring and slow. Don't feel good at their role at all, made for feel forced or to become Broodlord.
They don't need to be stronger in stats and the anti-building-acid is fine. But they could get a better chance to actually fight.
I would like to see a weaker form of "concussive shells" upgrade for Corruptors.
So harder to flee from them once battle started or just that minor slowdown on a mass-carrier attack.
Maybe extra needed if this Hydra-nerf comes true also.
I think that buffing Zerg air when it's already very dominant in zvt seems wrong, if you compare corupters to Vikings the only thing Vikings have on them is range corupters are better in evrey other way, even the corupters utility skill is often stronger than landing. Corupters paired with vipers obliterates Terran air, yeah it losses to sky toss but just like Terran is supposed to not let zerg get there in tvz it's zergs job to not let Protoss get there in pvz.
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tbh I think zerg is still going to be super hydra heavy even with a nerf, especially vs Terran. Mutas and roaches are both so weak right now. What else is there, ling bane corruptor? Guess I could see that. Super down with a hydra nerf, not enjoying this comp very much, however zerg has a midgame problem bar hydras, it needs to be fixed. Probably more stupid carrier turtle inc from protoss which makes me sad, hopefully there will still be some timing to kill that off. There's nothing more unenjoyable in this game than playing vs skytoss.
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Wouldn't an attack period of 1.87 for the Stalker be an increase from the current 1.54? Was this a typo? I thought the change was meant to make it 1.34?
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On January 15 2018 18:29 Nars_ wrote:
Nerfing stalkers with 42.58% PvZ [Aligulac]. Good job.
You're sure you watch the right aligulac ? On mine PvZ is 49.58%
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As a terran, I don't like any of these changes.
I don't mind the strong stalker, it's blink and chrono that are the big problems.
And why the fuck auto-turret? Give terran a lategame with no cancerous mass raven caster vs caster shit plz. Why not just add the BC to the game?
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On January 16 2018 03:08 winsonsonho wrote:
Wouldn't an attack period of 1.87 for the Stalker be an increase from the current 1.54? Was this a typo? I thought the change was meant to make it 1.34?
You are correct.
1.87 is in Blizzard time, and 1.87 Blizzard seconds == 1.34 real seconds. Currently the attack period is 2.16 Blizzard seconds, which equals 1.54 real seconds.
On January 16 2018 03:56 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2018 18:29 Nars_ wrote:
Nerfing stalkers with 42.58% PvZ [Aligulac]. Good job. You're sure you watch the right aligulac ? On mine PvZ is 49.58%
He is looking at the Balance Report, which is outdated: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
@Nars_
For up-to-date information use the aligulac periods, which are biweekly and update daily, instead of the balance report which only updates once a month.
The past 3 weeks show PvZ is between 49-51%, very balanced.
http://aligulac.com/periods/205/?page=1
http://aligulac.com/periods/206/?page=1
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On January 16 2018 00:44 KR_4EVR wrote:
The real issue with PvZ is
1) Ridiculous un-upgraded overlord speed
2 sentries or 1 stalker should be able to kill mismicroed scoouting overlords
2) Pre - Lair drop ability
Terran pays for barracks, factory, starport, and medivac before drop available. That's a resource cost of 850 just to get a drop. Protoss pays for Gateway, Cyber-core, Robo facility, and Warp Prism before drop. That's a similar resource cost. But zerg? 25/25 conversion of an already conveiniently placed cheap unit with just Spawning pool / Evo-Chamber?
Comparing Droperlord to Medivack or imba Warprism...Seems legit. Maybe just try not to play incredible greedy as Protoss used to do in previous iteration, and actually have some units in your base? Scouting for overlord early is a feature to have too. Zerg must scout for proxy or cheese. I don't see argument against Protoss doing the same.
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On January 16 2018 04:57 pvsnp wrote:
1.87 is in Blizzard time, and 1.87 Blizzard seconds == 1.34 real seconds. Currently the attack period is 2.16 Blizzard seconds, which equals 1.54 real seconds.
thx for clearing this up.
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On January 16 2018 15:11 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2018 00:44 KR_4EVR wrote:
The real issue with PvZ is
1) Ridiculous un-upgraded overlord speed
2 sentries or 1 stalker should be able to kill mismicroed scoouting overlords
2) Pre - Lair drop ability
Terran pays for barracks, factory, starport, and medivac before drop available. That's a resource cost of 850 just to get a drop. Protoss pays for Gateway, Cyber-core, Robo facility, and Warp Prism before drop. That's a similar resource cost. But zerg? 25/25 conversion of an already conveiniently placed cheap unit with just Spawning pool / Evo-Chamber? Comparing Droperlord to Medivack or imba Warprism...Seems legit. Maybe just try not to play incredible greedy as Protoss used to do in previous iteration, and actually have some units in your base? Scouting for overlord early is a feature to have too. Zerg must scout for proxy or cheese. I don't see argument against Protoss doing the same.
Protoss has to play somewhat greedy vs zerg, or they have to allin, because middle ground builds just get run over by hydra bane timings. You either have to role over the zerg before they get there with an allin or you have to be ready for the eventuality of a hydra bane attack. because of this if your going for a macro strategy as protoss you have to cut alot of corners, that's fine most macro builds use some corner cutting but I think right now its a bit to coinflippy with zergling drops. Because protoss cant open with "safe builds" because safe builds are completely unsafe vs the hydra timing they have to flip the build selection coin and hope that they go macro builds when zerg isn't droping and allin builds when they are.This is not healthy for such a skill based RTS game where there is so much more that could go into a deciding the game rather than just a player either going aggressive, or not. I think this issue is compounded by the difficulty of scouting the zergling drop. theres alot of big windows in the matchup were protoss has no intel so that often they have to guess weather the drop is coming or not its fairly easy to mask a zergling drop build so protoss often struggle to know if its coming. Granted zerg is making a similar coin flip going this build, they usually cant both have a droperlord and overlord scout your whole base and hit the timing before you know its coming. But even if flipping a coin is 50/50 balanced I don't think its necessarily skill based and fun.This is just my masters level impression on the matter though, perhaps top protoss can consistently read an incoming drop build or defend it with units off just 1 or 2 gateways, but to my knowledge its unlikely vs a decent zerg player.
Maybe in an odd way the hydra nerf will help with this problem since having the hydra timing hit a bit latter will allow protoss to open a bit more conservatively but still have hts and immortals in the right numbers to hold off the timing. Although this is contingent on the idea that hydra timings needs both upgrades to function, I'm not entirely sure that zerg wont just opt to skip range, or speed and do the same timing with half upgraded hydras, It may turn out that hydra speed or hydra range on its own suffices when it comes to the timing, but we will see.
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Somebody just pushed the wrong button over at Blizzard, has to be. There's no Community Update, no Patch Notes, and the last word was that 29th was the release date.
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On January 17 2018 05:45 pvsnp wrote:
Somebody just pushed the wrong button over at Blizzard, has to be. There's no Community Update, no Patch Notes, and the last word was that 29th was the release date.
yeah has to be
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The question is, will they unpush the button?
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I hope they reconsider auto-turrets
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On January 17 2018 05:55 Charoisaur wrote:
I hope they reconsider auto-turrets
Give them Irradiate?
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On January 17 2018 06:08 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 05:55 Charoisaur wrote:
I hope they reconsider auto-turrets Give them Irradiate?
No, Terran is not allowed decent aoe spells.
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On January 17 2018 05:45 pvsnp wrote:
Somebody just pushed the wrong button over at Blizzard, has to be. There's no Community Update, no Patch Notes, and the last word was that 29th was the release date.
They don't have to do a Community Update if they didn't change anything from the last, and balance changes don't come with patch notes unless they're rolled into a bigger patch anyway. But it is pretty out of nowhere.
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Update [1:40 PST] : There was an issue with our deployment and we will need to temporarily remove the new season 1 maps. We will replublish the maps as soon as the issue is resolved which we project to be by the end of the day.
So Blizzard acknowledges the issue.
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So basically they only wanted to add the new maps to the custom game section and they somehow rolled out the new patch along with the maps?
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On January 17 2018 06:55 Musicus wrote:
So basically they only wanted to add the new maps to the custom game section and they somehow rolled out the new patch along with the maps?
Looks like it.
These problems are pretty common in the software industry, tbh
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On January 16 2018 03:58 ihatevideogames wrote:
As a terran, I don't like any of these changes.
I don't mind the strong stalker, it's blink and chrono that are the big problems.
And why the fuck auto-turret? Give terran a lategame with no cancerous mass raven caster vs caster shit plz. Why not just add the BC to the game?
THIS.
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On January 17 2018 06:58 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:55 Musicus wrote:
So basically they only wanted to add the new maps to the custom game section and they somehow rolled out the new patch along with the maps? Looks like it. These problems are pretty common in the software industry, tbh
I'm kinda impressed that their patch deploy process is so painless that they can do it accidentally tbh.
I like the new maps--Abiogenesis was the only 'good' rush map from the previous tlmc.
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The disruptor change they have lined up (apply the shooting delay only when dropping out of warp prisms) is quite inelegant, but it might get the job done I guess.
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On January 17 2018 07:05 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 06:58 pvsnp wrote:On January 17 2018 06:55 Musicus wrote:
So basically they only wanted to add the new maps to the custom game section and they somehow rolled out the new patch along with the maps? Looks like it. These problems are pretty common in the software industry, tbh I'm kinda impressed that their patch deploy process is so painless that they can do it accidentally tbh. I like the new maps--Abiogenesis was the only 'good' rush map from the previous tlmc.
Assuming Blizzard runs on the standard trunk/stage/prod environment, I can see it happening quite easily. They almost always push changes on Tuesday, so somebody probably just skipped over a PR review or didn't check HEAD or something like that.
Ship room is surprisingly fallible.
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On January 17 2018 07:20 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:05 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 17 2018 06:58 pvsnp wrote:On January 17 2018 06:55 Musicus wrote:
So basically they only wanted to add the new maps to the custom game section and they somehow rolled out the new patch along with the maps? Looks like it. These problems are pretty common in the software industry, tbh I'm kinda impressed that their patch deploy process is so painless that they can do it accidentally tbh. I like the new maps--Abiogenesis was the only 'good' rush map from the previous tlmc. Assuming Blizzard runs on the standard trunk/stage/prod environment, I can see it happening quite easily. They almost always push changes on Tuesday, so somebody probably just skipped over a PR review or didn't check HEAD or something like that.
Makes sense I guess. Plus a balance patch is pretty trivial as far as patching process goes (you're essentially just changing in-game values, so there wouldn't be any of the tricky stuff like database migrations).
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Sucks that they reverted the patch. I loved the changes, made the game fun again.
Interference matrix finally became useful, Raven worth building again, Stalkers got from OP to just strong. Why revert something that made the game better. Stop worrying about pro gamers, they have to adapt like everyone else.
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didn't the adept HP change not even require a patch, it was automatically changed in game for people.
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On January 17 2018 07:37 youngjiddle wrote:
didn't the adept HP change not even require a patch, it was automatically changed in game for people.
Yes, the adept change was a hotfix, not tied to a specific patch. So it didn't require a patch download.
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Playing with the balance mod as it was out live I managed to get a long TvZ game in. The Raven is not a unit that can be massed and used like it was pre 4.0 As a utility unit maybe in numbers of 1-6 it can be decent but apart from that it is just early harass/defense and late game utility and while this is a great spot for it to be in Terran loses out on a unit that they can sink gas into effectively. For reference take a look at High Templar, Infestors, and Vipers. All 3 of these units have some form of AOE Damage in the shape of a gas heavy spellcaster. While granted yes the Terran has EMP: The EMP only affects shields and energy and is not a reliable way to use "Energy" to kill high amounts of units. And yes you can argue that we have the battlecruiser as a gas sink, or siege tanks and widows etc but those are units that mostly affect ground more so than air. Storm does 80 damage over 3 seconds, fungal applies a heavy slow and 40 damage over 3 seconds (iirc) and vipers do 160 damage in a huge air AA (Forget how long it is). Ghosts deal 100 damage to shields and energy. I do not see that being used to kill hydras, marines or other units anytime soon. And while this can be easily mistaken for wanting to bring back the old raven seeker I do not want that at all. I think Terrans heavy tier 3 units can be buffed. Perhaps adding an upgrade that requires armory for thor ground splash, giving battlecruisers more reactive turning and while the new Raven is looking solid, I do think that people are going to need an ability such as the Repair Drone or Point Defense Drone over the interference matrix.
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On January 17 2018 07:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2018 07:20 pvsnp wrote:On January 17 2018 07:05 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 17 2018 06:58 pvsnp wrote:On January 17 2018 06:55 Musicus wrote:
So basically they only wanted to add the new maps to the custom game section and they somehow rolled out the new patch along with the maps? Looks like it. These problems are pretty common in the software industry, tbh I'm kinda impressed that their patch deploy process is so painless that they can do it accidentally tbh. I like the new maps--Abiogenesis was the only 'good' rush map from the previous tlmc. Assuming Blizzard runs on the standard trunk/stage/prod environment, I can see it happening quite easily. They almost always push changes on Tuesday, so somebody probably just skipped over a PR review or didn't check HEAD or something like that. Makes sense I guess. Plus a balance patch is pretty trivial as far as patching process goes (you're essentially just changing in-game values, so there wouldn't be any of the tricky stuff like database migrations).
Oh god, don't get me started on schema migrations.....
There was one time I got so fed up when I realized I forgot to add a foreign key right after the weekly migration went through that I just SSH'd directly onto the prod db and covertly applied the hotfix.
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So is the patch comming out the 29th? Is there any test map out yet?
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It's clear that if the patch is made that way, Zerg will be removed from GSL.
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Don't know if this was brought up already but...
Poll says "Recall takes an extra second to teleport units to the nexus.".
But patch notes seem to say "Recalled units cannot be issued commands for an extra second after units teleport to the nexus"
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EPT
