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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On January 13 2018 07:58 youngjiddle wrote: The team should focus on PvZ instead, the hydra change is nice but not what expected. "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in" | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote: "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in" 1. Hates all the nerfs to Protoss. 2. Loves all the nerfs to Zerg. Gee, I wonder which race this guy plays? | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On January 13 2018 08:07 Ranari wrote: "Professional Viewer" perspective here. I look at balance from the perspective of making sure that all units have a role to play in the game, and get used at all levels of play. When I start noticing that players don't use units, it concerns me. Although I do feel that the old Raven had more use than the new Raven, I'm not so sure bringing back the Auto-Turret is the way to balance the unit. The issue I see is that none of the abilities that the Raven has really impacts a battle in a meaningful way. When you think about it, any Abducted unit is going to be a dead unit. It's especially useful for ripping Lurkers out of the ground and wearing away the expensive units of an enemy army. And, when the Viper is out of energy, it just goes back and gets more. High Templar are a bit different, but Psionic Storm is horrendously unforgiving against a player that isn't microing well. That, and it just does a lot of damage when used properly. And when the High Templar are out of energy, they can become Archons. Ghosts can keep fighting as a decent anti-light unit. Infestors are probably similar to Ravens, and that's why I haven't seen them used as much lately. But when Ravens (and Infestors) run out of energy, they just have to sit there. I'm purposefully leaving out Oracles because it's more of a harass unit, and I don't think anyone here is questioning their usefulness.  The other issue is that when you think about it, Raven abilities overlap Ghost abilities. Interference Matrix is really meant to disable mechanical or psionic units, but there's a purpose overlap there with EMP. I can either disable a Viper for 10 seconds, or I can wipe its energy clean with EMPs. Both effectively do the same thing. Repair Drones are cool, but they need to travel. I think we would find a lot more use out of them if they were tethered to the Raven, and if the Raven dies, they stay in that spot. Or, they attach themselves to the nearest Raven. Anti-Armor Missile - Easily the most interesting ability the Raven has, but right now it does nothing significant in a battle. I guess I just don't get the "Activation Time" on it. The Seeker Missile made sense since its damage stacked and it would annihilate armies, but the Anti-Armor Missile doesn't do enough damage to really see that happen. Abduct is instant, Blinding Cloud is instant, Psionic Storm is instant, EMP, Parasitic Bomb, and Fungal Growth are fast, but Anti-Armor Missiles are slow. There is lots to play around with here, but I'd like to see the ability made to be a little faster and more instant. And no, not calling for any nerfs whatsoever to the other caster units. I just want to make sure they're useful enough to get used. I like your suggestions. About the Repair Drone: How about it is a castable ability that produces NO drone. Instead, the raven goes into "healing mode" and repairs X amount of hp per second until the ability finishes (so for example the description would say: heals X hp per second. costs 75 mana and last X seconds). So it's mobile and still locked to the Raven. I cant stress enough how much I think bringing back autoturrets is a terrible idea.  | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play. You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make. Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so. But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place. Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation. By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair. IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc. What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced. Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy. Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own. The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well. Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes. There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early." That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting. As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc. Bring back the raven and Terran lategame. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote: + Show Spoiler + Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team. Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play. You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make. Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so. But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place. Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation. By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair. IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc. What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced. Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy. Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own. The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well. Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes. There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early." That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting. As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc. Bring back the raven and Terran lategame. Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote: Ok, most issues are identified in this update, which is a new high for this balance team. Hydralisks are too strong period because they have a free combat shields they aren't supposed to have, same thing happened with banelings that killed bio play. You cannot give units free combat shields. +10 hp is a big deal, imagine if marines were given this upgrade for free. It changes the entire balance of the game. This is why currently every single game TvZ is vs a guy making 50 hydras and remaxing on 50 pure hydras because it's too good not to make. Also, stalkers will be fixed soon? I hope so. But the main thing here is...Blizzard still does not "get it" about the raven nerfs. Adding auto-turret back to the raven is a terrible idea, it's one of the main reasons mass raven was becoming problematic in the first place. Terran has no late game scaling unit because seeker was nerfed and so was PDD. Every race had a late game scaling unit: Zerg infestors/vipers/swarmhosts, Protoss tempest/carrier,high templar, disruptors/collosus, anything with splash, and Terran had....ONLY THE RAVEN SEEKER MISSILE/PDD/AUTO-TURRET accumulation. By severely nerfing and killing seeker missile and removing point defense drone, blizzard has REMOVED TERRAN LATEGAME FROM THE GAME. Every race has to have a hyper scaling late game "carry" unit if the game is to be fair. IF the raven was to be severely nerfed as it was that's fine - if it's done across the board. Nerf viper/infestor/sh, nerf high templar, carriers, etc. What happened is an absolute travesty because it makes one race near unplayable as time goes on in a game, which is objectively unfair and not balanced. Every Terran player agrees the raven was hard nerfed and needs to be reverted in some manner, but not the auto-turret. The current seeker is just bad and a hard nerf. Bring back the seeker that killed things. No one cares if a unit turns red. The other races get parasitic bomb - KILLS THINGS. Psi storm - KILLS. Terran HAD seeker that KILLED now we've lost that source of late game splash that scales with time and energy. Currently, Terran lategame revolves around massing as many vikings as humanly possible and praying you hit an emp/snipes onto your opponent's hyper scaling energy units because you aren't allowed to mass your own. The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well. Also, for those of you here or elsewhere that don't understand what a "hyper scaling unit is" you can see this in MOBA games champions/heroes. There are hyper scaling carries that scale up in damage with critical strike items/damage as the game goes on. But some champions in MOBA games do not scale nearly as much or at all, and stay near flat static values and have to "win the game early." That is perfectly fine, for a MOBA champion / game where there's asymettrical balance and many other factors. For an RTS game, every race has to have fair options as a game time goes longer. What we currently have are Zerg and Protoss that contain "hyper scaling carries" in the form of energy units previously mentioned - high templar, vipers, infestors, swarmhosts, carriers, tempest, meaning the more of them you make, the better your army is getting. As a Terran player, making more vikings isn't making my army stronger - it's getting weaker and weaker as we both reach 200/200 supply because a 2 supply viking does not have the "hyper scaling" that a 2 supply raven with seeker/PDD/auto turrets had. Or that a 2 supply high templar has with storm, etc. Bring back the raven and Terran lategame. I'm glad that you agree that autoturrets are a terrible thing to bring back to the game. Blizzard had hinted before that they dont want to see late game spellcasters vs spellcaster. Which is good in principle. The reality though is that the High Templar and Viper utterly obliterate Terran late game and are just made without question. At it's current state, Terran literally does not have a go-to late game unit. Honestly they should just change the Battlecruiser attack to how it was in brood war. Single powerful shots that arent affected by armor so much. Then Terran has something actually scary in late game. Just keep the raven as a support unit and buff the battlecruiser somehow. I am partial about the old seeker to be honest. Maybe something inbetween the seeker and the newseeker would be good. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote: "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in" I'm not gonna mention every nerf and buff that I agree, I think poor performance of foreigner protoss player vs. zerg as well as 42% winrates over and over again should be more looked into instead of PvT. Also my PvT winrate shows that I am not favored if you want to see it. I did mention the hydra nerf too. On January 13 2018 08:15 pvsnp wrote: 1. Hates all the nerfs to Protoss. 2. Loves all the nerfs to Zerg. Gee, I wonder which race this guy plays? like usual, just stop. where is your basic intelligence? | ||
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NutriaKaiN
88 Posts
On January 13 2018 08:12 Fango wrote: "balance team should stop changing the matchup because it's the one I'm favoured in" or maybe because the pvz winrate is worse then the tvp? | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On January 13 2018 08:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Fuck that. Players going for 30 raven spamming seeker missiles so that everything explodes is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want in the game (and rightly so). And it wasn't even particularly common at the highest level--it was good for abusing on ladder and creating miserable games there. Players will still spam ravens for the autoturrets in late game. Rapidfire trick and autoturrets from 20 ravens is bat-shit crazy. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On January 13 2018 08:40 youngjiddle wrote: like usual, just stop. where is your basic intelligence? Oh hey, it's you again! I normally just read the post and ignore the poster name but when you immediately insulted me I double-checked the name and sure enough it's my old pal youngjiddle. Nobody else would start making personal attacks so quickly. Stay classy, my friend. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
On January 13 2018 08:48 pvsnp wrote: Oh hey, it's you again! I normally just read the post and ignore the poster name but when you immediately insulted me I double-checked the name and sure enough it's my old pal youngjiddle. Nobody else would start making personal attacks so quickly. Stay classy, my friend. honest question. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16935 Posts
On January 13 2018 08:21 avilo wrote: The old raven seeker needs to come back. Arguably PDD as well. no i prefer teh Raven as a support unit. Terran has too many air attack options. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On January 13 2018 08:47 Psychobabas wrote: Players will still spam ravens for the autoturrets in late game. Rapidfire trick and autoturrets from 20 ravens is bat-shit crazy. I highly doubt it. With no PDD and no Seeker Missile going for mass raven is asking for getting dived on by corruptors and losing everything. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
'Honest,' you say? On December 22 2017 02:24 youngjiddle wrote: fuck off tbh | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On January 13 2018 09:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I highly doubt it. With no PDD and no Seeker Missile going for mass raven is asking for getting dived on by corruptors and losing everything. Yes that is true but why wouldnt you want 15 ravens and their 60 autoturrets vs anything else in Terran late game where you already have your backbone of tanks, your sprinkle of hellbats, your thors. I am not saying that the terran will go full on raven but they sure can make 10-15 of them. And honestly, once it goes into really late and all it matters are orbitals, then the ravens can go up to 30 easily. There is no real reason not to do this. The 30 supply of ravens is so much superior vs the 5 thors you can make or anything else really. (I assume the player is using the rapid fire trick to deploy mass turrets in a blink of an eye.) And this promotes turtle style mech which is just... | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On January 13 2018 09:33 Psychobabas wrote: Yes that is true but why wouldnt you want 15 ravens and their 60 autoturrets vs anything else in Terran late game where you already have your backbone of tanks, your sprinkle of hellbats, your thors. I am not saying that the terran will go full on raven but they sure can make 10-15 of them. There is no real reason not to do this. The 30 supply of ravens is so much superior vs the 5 thors you can make or anything else really. (I assume the player is using the rapid fire trick to deploy mass turrets in a blink of an eye.) Even when Ravens had autoturrets, PDDs, and seekers, mass Raven only happened once in a blue moon at the professional level (in LotV). Transitioning to mass Raven takes too much time and too much gas. | ||
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KaiserCommander
Mexico290 Posts
For me I totally agree with the opinion of the guy that mentioned the Battlecruisers, Terran needs a buff fearsome unit, the Battlecruiser was supposed to be that unit but it's Cyclone-esque attack makes it non-viable for the sustain of late game, another option is to make the Battlecruiser able to atack while it is charging Yamato Cannon. Talking about the Raven and as someone mentioned me (stealing my idea) is that you can lock the regeneration to the Raven and make it consume it's energy for HP AND if they will bring back Auto Turrets they can at least set some kind of anti-spam regulation like constructing them (like the carrier) or assign the Raven a single buff turret for cycle. Still I don't think the return of auto turret is a good idea. And with the insta-cloack there is the end of my TvT bullshit Ghost in Main cheese. RIP. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On January 13 2018 09:36 pvsnp wrote: Even when Ravens had autoturrets, PDDs, and seekers, mass Raven only happened once in a blue moon at the professional level (in LotV). Transitioning to mass Raven takes too much time and too much gas. Absolutely but I am talking about ladder here. The games we play. If Blizzard was balancing according to pro gamers only then the ravens wouldnt even be touched. Which they clearly arent. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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