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On December 27 2017 03:48 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 03:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 27 2017 03:04 DieuCure wrote:On December 27 2017 02:49 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 02:30 Fango wrote:On December 27 2017 01:41 Elentos wrote:On December 27 2017 01:26 Boggyb wrote:
At the very least, the non-Korean should be slapped in the more difficult groups On what basis? They can straight-up ban non-Koreans if they consider it an issue, no need to pretend the tournament is open and then rig it. Imagine the day they have to ban foreigners from GSL to stop them from doing well Right now top foreigners are better than low-mid tier koreans so banning them would make sense to allow those lower tier koreans to earn money from playing the game. It's not about preventing foreigners from doing well, it's for keeping the scene alive. Blizzard prefers foreigners , so they get their paycheck and kill the scene to die in ro32. But wow so cool Scarlett is in beating returning players and new generation ... There's a bit of a difference between when Koreans were killing the foreign scene by winning all their tournaments and whats going on here, foreigners are hardly killing the Korean scene by stealing a few Ro32 spots. Yes the next generation ( TangTang Pet Nightmare DRGling etc ) can't go full time because of foreigners, returning players to, then it discourage all the sub 32 or potentien returning player, no new blood, the scene die, because it's so cool to lose in ro32 considering you can make money from wcs 
The reasons for no new blood in the Korean scene are a lot more nuanced than a couple less Ro32 spots, it's disingenuous to try to say that scene is dying because of a couple foreigners stealing a spots. You've literally named all the potential new blood players, I don't even think the etc was necessary, and this has been a trend since before Scarlett and other foreigners went to Korea.
The system is unfair for those Koreans, the foreigners are very lucky they can try for both, I can't really argue that. But it's not doing even close to the level of damage that made region-locking necessary in the foreigner scene.
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sOs Scarlett Stats Rogue Creator aLive <3
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On December 27 2017 03:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 03:34 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 03:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 27 2017 03:04 DieuCure wrote:On December 27 2017 02:49 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 02:30 Fango wrote:On December 27 2017 01:41 Elentos wrote:On December 27 2017 01:26 Boggyb wrote:
At the very least, the non-Korean should be slapped in the more difficult groups On what basis? They can straight-up ban non-Koreans if they consider it an issue, no need to pretend the tournament is open and then rig it. Imagine the day they have to ban foreigners from GSL to stop them from doing well Right now top foreigners are better than low-mid tier koreans so banning them would make sense to allow those lower tier koreans to earn money from playing the game. It's not about preventing foreigners from doing well, it's for keeping the scene alive. Blizzard prefers foreigners , so they get their paycheck and kill the scene to die in ro32. But wow so cool Scarlett is in beating returning players and new generation ... There's a bit of a difference between when Koreans were killing the foreign scene by winning all their tournaments and whats going on here, foreigners are hardly killing the Korean scene by stealing a few Ro32 spots. If you only care about the very top players than they aren't damaging the korean scene but the lower tier koreans also want to make money playing the game. "stealing a few 32 spots" as you put it sounds so harmless but in reality they are ending careers. Korean tournament organizers are the ones who typically insist on incredibly top-heavy prize pools and tournament structures, which is much more harmful to the lower tier guys than a little foreign competition. Yet we don't see many complaints about that compared to the presence of foreigners... It gets hard to believe that you guys actually care about the well-being of the players rather than the Korean-foreigner dynamic. Calling you Korean elitists might be a bit off though since you're no longer using meritocratic arguments anymore since they don't help you. in GSL season 3 2017 a ro32 finish actually got you 2,674$.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_S
Take that *3 and it's an ok amount of money. If you can't make the ro32 because a foreigner knocks you out in the qualifier you get 0$ which is less than 2,674$
I can't understand why you don't seem to think that this is bad for the korean scene.
Accusing me of not caring about the lower tier koreans and just wanting to see foreigners fail is very far-fetched.
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On December 27 2017 04:02 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 03:48 DieuCure wrote:On December 27 2017 03:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 27 2017 03:04 DieuCure wrote:On December 27 2017 02:49 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 02:30 Fango wrote:On December 27 2017 01:41 Elentos wrote:On December 27 2017 01:26 Boggyb wrote:
At the very least, the non-Korean should be slapped in the more difficult groups On what basis? They can straight-up ban non-Koreans if they consider it an issue, no need to pretend the tournament is open and then rig it. Imagine the day they have to ban foreigners from GSL to stop them from doing well Right now top foreigners are better than low-mid tier koreans so banning them would make sense to allow those lower tier koreans to earn money from playing the game. It's not about preventing foreigners from doing well, it's for keeping the scene alive. Blizzard prefers foreigners , so they get their paycheck and kill the scene to die in ro32. But wow so cool Scarlett is in beating returning players and new generation ... There's a bit of a difference between when Koreans were killing the foreign scene by winning all their tournaments and whats going on here, foreigners are hardly killing the Korean scene by stealing a few Ro32 spots. Yes the next generation ( TangTang Pet Nightmare DRGling etc ) can't go full time because of foreigners, returning players to, then it discourage all the sub 32 or potentien returning player, no new blood, the scene die, because it's so cool to lose in ro32 considering you can make money from wcs The reasons for no new blood in the Korean scene are a lot more nuanced than a couple less Ro32 spots, it's disingenuous to try to say that scene is dying because of a couple foreigners stealing a spots. You've literally named all the potential new blood players, I don't even think the etc was necessary, and this has been a trend since before Scarlett and other foreigners went to Korea. The system is unfair for those Koreans, the foreigners are very lucky they can try for both, I can't really argue that. But it's not doing even close to the level of damage that made region-locking necessary in the foreigner scene.
of course it's not the only reason for the lack of new blood but it heavily discourages the remaining players who might try to break into the pro-scene.
Don't you remember Nightmare and DRGling qualifying for GSL when Scarlett was the only foreigner in it?
If it had continued like that we might have seen them constantly improving and gaining experience. Now they just get knocked out in the qualifiers.
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On December 27 2017 04:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 03:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 27 2017 03:34 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 03:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 27 2017 03:04 DieuCure wrote:On December 27 2017 02:49 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 02:30 Fango wrote:On December 27 2017 01:41 Elentos wrote:On December 27 2017 01:26 Boggyb wrote:
At the very least, the non-Korean should be slapped in the more difficult groups On what basis? They can straight-up ban non-Koreans if they consider it an issue, no need to pretend the tournament is open and then rig it. Imagine the day they have to ban foreigners from GSL to stop them from doing well Right now top foreigners are better than low-mid tier koreans so banning them would make sense to allow those lower tier koreans to earn money from playing the game. It's not about preventing foreigners from doing well, it's for keeping the scene alive. Blizzard prefers foreigners , so they get their paycheck and kill the scene to die in ro32. But wow so cool Scarlett is in beating returning players and new generation ... There's a bit of a difference between when Koreans were killing the foreign scene by winning all their tournaments and whats going on here, foreigners are hardly killing the Korean scene by stealing a few Ro32 spots. If you only care about the very top players than they aren't damaging the korean scene but the lower tier koreans also want to make money playing the game. "stealing a few 32 spots" as you put it sounds so harmless but in reality they are ending careers. Korean tournament organizers are the ones who typically insist on incredibly top-heavy prize pools and tournament structures, which is much more harmful to the lower tier guys than a little foreign competition. Yet we don't see many complaints about that compared to the presence of foreigners... It gets hard to believe that you guys actually care about the well-being of the players rather than the Korean-foreigner dynamic. Calling you Korean elitists might be a bit off though since you're no longer using meritocratic arguments anymore since they don't help you. in GSL season 3 2017 a ro32 finish actually got you 2,674$. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_STake that *3 and it's an ok amount of money. If you can't make the ro32 because a foreigner knocks you out in the qualifier you get 0$ which is less than 2,674$ I can't understand why you don't seem to think that this is bad for the korean scene. Accusing me of not caring about the lower tier koreans and just wanting to see foreigners fail is very far-fetched.
To be honest, I think the better players are the ones who deserve the money (and this goes for all events). Banning foreigners from GSL only helps those koreans because they're are being robbed from competing in other events. Removing the region locking all together is better than add more.
Also, I would seriously want to know the opinions of the korean players in GSL. We all know about salty EU players that asked for region locking before it happened. But koreans players seem to support the idea of better players being the ones who win
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so, some Terrans are winning and getting into Code S on the current patch.
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On December 27 2017 04:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 03:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 27 2017 03:34 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 03:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 27 2017 03:04 DieuCure wrote:On December 27 2017 02:49 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 02:30 Fango wrote:On December 27 2017 01:41 Elentos wrote:On December 27 2017 01:26 Boggyb wrote:
At the very least, the non-Korean should be slapped in the more difficult groups On what basis? They can straight-up ban non-Koreans if they consider it an issue, no need to pretend the tournament is open and then rig it. Imagine the day they have to ban foreigners from GSL to stop them from doing well Right now top foreigners are better than low-mid tier koreans so banning them would make sense to allow those lower tier koreans to earn money from playing the game. It's not about preventing foreigners from doing well, it's for keeping the scene alive. Blizzard prefers foreigners , so they get their paycheck and kill the scene to die in ro32. But wow so cool Scarlett is in beating returning players and new generation ... There's a bit of a difference between when Koreans were killing the foreign scene by winning all their tournaments and whats going on here, foreigners are hardly killing the Korean scene by stealing a few Ro32 spots. If you only care about the very top players than they aren't damaging the korean scene but the lower tier koreans also want to make money playing the game. "stealing a few 32 spots" as you put it sounds so harmless but in reality they are ending careers. Korean tournament organizers are the ones who typically insist on incredibly top-heavy prize pools and tournament structures, which is much more harmful to the lower tier guys than a little foreign competition. Yet we don't see many complaints about that compared to the presence of foreigners... It gets hard to believe that you guys actually care about the well-being of the players rather than the Korean-foreigner dynamic. Calling you Korean elitists might be a bit off though since you're no longer using meritocratic arguments anymore since they don't help you. in GSL season 3 2017 a ro32 finish actually got you 2,674$. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_STake that *3 and it's an ok amount of money. If you can't make the ro32 because a foreigner knocks you out in the qualifier you get 0$ which is less than 2,674$ I can't understand why you don't seem to think that this is bad for the korean scene. Accusing me of not caring about the lower tier koreans and just wanting to see foreigners fail is very far-fetched.
The effect of foreigners on the Korean scene is insignificant compared to the structural issues that have plagued it for years, so if you legitimately care about lower tiered Koreans you should choose your battles better.
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On December 27 2017 04:06 Charoisaur wrote:Don't you remember Nightmare and DRGling qualifying for GSL when Scarlett was the only foreigner in it?
If it had continued like that we might have seen them constantly improving and gaining experience. Now they just get knocked out in the qualifiers.
Nightmare and DRGling are awesome players, but if they get beaten in qualifers then they get beaten. It shouldn't matter if it's by Dark or Scarlett, the tournament is about the best players in the world. Although Afreeca expanding the league to accomidate a new influx of players would be nice (would be a good way to spend warchest money as well)
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On December 27 2017 04:08 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 04:03 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 03:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 27 2017 03:34 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 03:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 27 2017 03:04 DieuCure wrote:On December 27 2017 02:49 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 02:30 Fango wrote:On December 27 2017 01:41 Elentos wrote:On December 27 2017 01:26 Boggyb wrote:
At the very least, the non-Korean should be slapped in the more difficult groups On what basis? They can straight-up ban non-Koreans if they consider it an issue, no need to pretend the tournament is open and then rig it. Imagine the day they have to ban foreigners from GSL to stop them from doing well Right now top foreigners are better than low-mid tier koreans so banning them would make sense to allow those lower tier koreans to earn money from playing the game. It's not about preventing foreigners from doing well, it's for keeping the scene alive. Blizzard prefers foreigners , so they get their paycheck and kill the scene to die in ro32. But wow so cool Scarlett is in beating returning players and new generation ... There's a bit of a difference between when Koreans were killing the foreign scene by winning all their tournaments and whats going on here, foreigners are hardly killing the Korean scene by stealing a few Ro32 spots. If you only care about the very top players than they aren't damaging the korean scene but the lower tier koreans also want to make money playing the game. "stealing a few 32 spots" as you put it sounds so harmless but in reality they are ending careers. Korean tournament organizers are the ones who typically insist on incredibly top-heavy prize pools and tournament structures, which is much more harmful to the lower tier guys than a little foreign competition. Yet we don't see many complaints about that compared to the presence of foreigners... It gets hard to believe that you guys actually care about the well-being of the players rather than the Korean-foreigner dynamic. Calling you Korean elitists might be a bit off though since you're no longer using meritocratic arguments anymore since they don't help you. in GSL season 3 2017 a ro32 finish actually got you 2,674$. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_STake that *3 and it's an ok amount of money. If you can't make the ro32 because a foreigner knocks you out in the qualifier you get 0$ which is less than 2,674$ I can't understand why you don't seem to think that this is bad for the korean scene. Accusing me of not caring about the lower tier koreans and just wanting to see foreigners fail is very far-fetched. Also, I would seriously want to know the opinions of the korean players in GSL. We all know about salty EU players that asked for region locking before it happened. But koreans players seem to support the idea of better players being the ones who win
Why is that important? Only making a positive/fair change when there is an outcry happening doesn't seem like a good idea. People that are too polite to start a controversy get fucked over while the egoistical/rude people get rewarded.
Remember the Fantasy vs Hyun incident where the game crashed and Hyun resumed from replay at a time which was favorable for him and Fantasy was too polite to confront him.
Just because some people are too polite to always start a fight doesn't mean it's okay to just fuck them over.
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On December 27 2017 04:12 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 04:06 Charoisaur wrote:Don't you remember Nightmare and DRGling qualifying for GSL when Scarlett was the only foreigner in it?
If it had continued like that we might have seen them constantly improving and gaining experience. Now they just get knocked out in the qualifiers.
Nightmare and DRGling are awesome players, but if they get beaten in qualifers then they get beaten. It shouldn't matter if it's by Dark or Scarlett, the tournament is about the best players in the world. Although Afreeca expanding the league to accomidate a new influx of players would be nice (would be a good way to spend warchest money as well)
when koreans get beaten by foreigners: "git gud", "Should have played better"
when foreigners get beaten by koreans: "Ban them now, this is unfair"
The double-standards are strong here.
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The GSL should be open to everyone, but if you play in it, you can't play in WCS Circuit. If non-Koreans want to go all in on playing in Korea, that's fine, but if not, get the hell out.
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On December 27 2017 04:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 04:12 Fango wrote:On December 27 2017 04:06 Charoisaur wrote:Don't you remember Nightmare and DRGling qualifying for GSL when Scarlett was the only foreigner in it?
If it had continued like that we might have seen them constantly improving and gaining experience. Now they just get knocked out in the qualifiers.
Nightmare and DRGling are awesome players, but if they get beaten in qualifers then they get beaten. It shouldn't matter if it's by Dark or Scarlett, the tournament is about the best players in the world. Although Afreeca expanding the league to accomidate a new influx of players would be nice (would be a good way to spend warchest money as well) when koreans get beaten by foreigners: "git gud", "Should have played better" when foreigners get beaten by koreans: "Ban them now, this is unfair" The double-standards are strong here.
Huh? Are you accusing me of double standards? I've always argued that the best players should win and that region shouldn't matter. I'm litterally arguing against banning foreigners from GSL in this thread for that very reason.
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On December 27 2017 04:25 Boggyb wrote:
The GSL should be open to everyone, but if you play in it, you can't play in WCS Circuit. If non-Koreans want to go all in on playing in Korea, that's fine, but if not, get the hell out.
Or just have all regions available for all to play in. That way the best players succeed where they deserve to
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On December 27 2017 04:26 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 04:18 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 04:12 Fango wrote:On December 27 2017 04:06 Charoisaur wrote:Don't you remember Nightmare and DRGling qualifying for GSL when Scarlett was the only foreigner in it?
If it had continued like that we might have seen them constantly improving and gaining experience. Now they just get knocked out in the qualifiers.
Nightmare and DRGling are awesome players, but if they get beaten in qualifers then they get beaten. It shouldn't matter if it's by Dark or Scarlett, the tournament is about the best players in the world. Although Afreeca expanding the league to accomidate a new influx of players would be nice (would be a good way to spend warchest money as well) when koreans get beaten by foreigners: "git gud", "Should have played better" when foreigners get beaten by koreans: "Ban them now, this is unfair" The double-standards are strong here. Huh? Are you accusing me of double standards? I've always argued that the best players should win and that region shouldn't matter. I'm litterally arguing against banning foreigners from GSL in this thread........
uh okay you weren't one of the people who argued for region-locking WCS.
I just think it's weird to say people who can't qualify for GSL don't deserve to play there while the entire foreign scene is currently region-locked to make sure players who otherwise wouldn't be able to earn money can do it.
edit: You're right that no region-locking at all would be best but I think when one region is locked the other ones MUST be too otherwise it's very unfair.
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On December 27 2017 04:33 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 04:26 Fango wrote:On December 27 2017 04:18 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 04:12 Fango wrote:On December 27 2017 04:06 Charoisaur wrote:Don't you remember Nightmare and DRGling qualifying for GSL when Scarlett was the only foreigner in it?
If it had continued like that we might have seen them constantly improving and gaining experience. Now they just get knocked out in the qualifiers.
Nightmare and DRGling are awesome players, but if they get beaten in qualifers then they get beaten. It shouldn't matter if it's by Dark or Scarlett, the tournament is about the best players in the world. Although Afreeca expanding the league to accomidate a new influx of players would be nice (would be a good way to spend warchest money as well) when koreans get beaten by foreigners: "git gud", "Should have played better" when foreigners get beaten by koreans: "Ban them now, this is unfair" The double-standards are strong here. Huh? Are you accusing me of double standards? I've always argued that the best players should win and that region shouldn't matter. I'm litterally arguing against banning foreigners from GSL in this thread........ uh okay you weren't one of the people who argued for region-locking WCS. I just think it's weird to say people who can't qualify for GSL don't deserve to play there while the entire foreign scene is currently region-locked to make sure players who otherwise wouldn't be able to earn money can do it.
I agree that the current system fucks the lower level koreans. However it's not the addition of foreigners to GSL that's doing it, it's being restricted from playing in overseas events
The easiest solution at this point (seeing how blizz won't undo region locking) is to expand GSL so there's a chance for both low level koreans and foreigners to compete. The GSL should always remain the highest level of play imo, if foreigners get in then it's fair game
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On December 27 2017 04:02 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 03:48 DieuCure wrote:On December 27 2017 03:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 27 2017 03:04 DieuCure wrote:On December 27 2017 02:49 Charoisaur wrote:On December 27 2017 02:30 Fango wrote:On December 27 2017 01:41 Elentos wrote:On December 27 2017 01:26 Boggyb wrote:
At the very least, the non-Korean should be slapped in the more difficult groups On what basis? They can straight-up ban non-Koreans if they consider it an issue, no need to pretend the tournament is open and then rig it. Imagine the day they have to ban foreigners from GSL to stop them from doing well Right now top foreigners are better than low-mid tier koreans so banning them would make sense to allow those lower tier koreans to earn money from playing the game. It's not about preventing foreigners from doing well, it's for keeping the scene alive. Blizzard prefers foreigners , so they get their paycheck and kill the scene to die in ro32. But wow so cool Scarlett is in beating returning players and new generation ... There's a bit of a difference between when Koreans were killing the foreign scene by winning all their tournaments and whats going on here, foreigners are hardly killing the Korean scene by stealing a few Ro32 spots. Yes the next generation ( TangTang Pet Nightmare DRGling etc ) can't go full time because of foreigners, returning players to, then it discourage all the sub 32 or potentien returning player, no new blood, the scene die, because it's so cool to lose in ro32 considering you can make money from wcs The reasons for no new blood in the Korean scene are a lot more nuanced than a couple less Ro32 spots, it's disingenuous to try to say that scene is dying because of a couple foreigners stealing a spots. You've literally named all the potential new blood players, I don't even think the etc was necessary, and this has been a trend since before Scarlett and other foreigners went to Korea. The system is unfair for those Koreans, the foreigners are very lucky they can try for both, I can't really argue that. But it's not doing even close to the level of damage that made region-locking necessary in the foreigner scene.
Sure but that's one of the reasons. They was a lot of foreigner in GSL s3 last year and it was more and it was more problematic than now (if we stop there with Scarlett as sole foreigner).
One performance can be life changing in esports, and this performance is even harder to achieve because of greedy foreigners ( I can't blame them I know but Blizzard ).
4 players = a lot, if 6 regular code S players have to retire next year ( soO and 5 others ) we have back up, with new blood and returning players.
But if it were to happen now, we would have just 6 others profiteers foreigners, so the koreans would nt have time to catch up, which is dramatic.
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Worth noting there are already more than 32 korean players entering GSL. Even with no foreigners not all of them would get in
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On December 27 2017 04:39 Fango wrote:
I agree that the current system fucks the lower level koreans. However it's not the addition of foreigners to GSL that's doing it, it's being restricted from playing in overseas events
Really? Being restricted from playing overseas events fucks lower level Koreans? Ones where they can't get through the online qualifiers because, as "lower level" Koreans, the better ones beat them? Ones where since they don't have teams, paying their own flight is hardly worth it considering how high they'd have to finish to cover the costs? That's what fucks lower level Koreans?
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On December 27 2017 04:48 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 04:39 Fango wrote:
I agree that the current system fucks the lower level koreans. However it's not the addition of foreigners to GSL that's doing it, it's being restricted from playing in overseas events
Really? Being restricted from playing overseas events fucks lower level Koreans? Ones where they can't get through the online qualifiers because, as "lower level" Koreans, the better ones beat them? Ones where since they don't have teams, paying their own flight is hardly worth it considering how high they'd have to finish to cover the costs? That's what fucks lower level Koreans?
Maybe they don't have teams that would be willing to pay their flights because they can't play overseas outside of one tournament.
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On December 27 2017 05:21 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2017 04:48 Elentos wrote:On December 27 2017 04:39 Fango wrote:
I agree that the current system fucks the lower level koreans. However it's not the addition of foreigners to GSL that's doing it, it's being restricted from playing in overseas events
Really? Being restricted from playing overseas events fucks lower level Koreans? Ones where they can't get through the online qualifiers because, as "lower level" Koreans, the better ones beat them? Ones where since they don't have teams, paying their own flight is hardly worth it considering how high they'd have to finish to cover the costs? That's what fucks lower level Koreans? Maybe they don't have teams that would be willing to pay their flights because they can't play overseas outside of one tournament.
I'm sure Team Liquid, ROOT, mYinsanity and co. are just waiting to pick up DRGLing, HHs and Dandy.
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EPT
