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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 21 2017 23:40 FanaticCZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2017 22:30 deacon.frost wrote:On November 21 2017 20:59 engesser1 wrote:watch this shit, Inno vs alpha full protoss. Next time he will be sure to see his whole base I guess  C'mon, it's a learning phase of the game. In HotS such players lost to 2gate zealot rush in PvZ. On November 21 2017 21:57 JackONeill wrote:
It's crazy to me how blizzard seems to want to have mech work in TvP (buffing the upgrade costs of tech lab upgrades) when it's so blatantly obvious that the mine nerf, the raven nerf and the stalker buff make it pretty much terrible.
Also increase shield battery cost won't change the fact that shield battery + photon canon combo get extremely cancerous late game. I'd suggest to have the shield battery auto casting on units only to have protoss manually micro-manage the batteries on canons to avoid spamming 10 batteries behind 10 canons. The biggest problem of mech in TvP is the vP. Protoss as a race is a hardcounter to mech. Whenever I meet a mech player on ladder I just scream of pure joy. The only time I lose is when I scout horribly and fail I fail to see how that would help him in that game :D
Maybe, JUST MAYBE, if he would be able to stop building that army of batteries on the high ground, then MAYBE he would have won Or be better prepared, I don't know.
I lost to a BC rush because I didn't know it was a possibility. The player outsmarted me, I was thinking he's going mech and BAM, cattlebruiser. I'm nowhere near the level of Innovation but these things happen. It's a rare build that works when you don't know about it. Next time Inno will scout for it and defend it. Next time I will consider the option of BCs before I have an army of immortals :D
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I wonder how that strategy would work if it was outside his natural. I feel like he stands no chance even with bunkers :D
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On November 21 2017 16:21 jpg06051992 wrote:
Fungal no longer roots, has an even smaller radius, cannot be cast while burrowed, and is having it's range drastically reduced from 9 to 7?
It is not the fungal range that is getting reduced, it is the infested terran egg that is being thrown a shorter distance.
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On November 22 2017 00:17 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2017 23:40 FanaticCZ wrote:On November 21 2017 22:30 deacon.frost wrote:On November 21 2017 20:59 engesser1 wrote:watch this shit, Inno vs alpha full protoss. Next time he will be sure to see his whole base I guess C'mon, it's a learning phase of the game. In HotS such players lost to 2gate zealot rush in PvZ. On November 21 2017 21:57 JackONeill wrote:
It's crazy to me how blizzard seems to want to have mech work in TvP (buffing the upgrade costs of tech lab upgrades) when it's so blatantly obvious that the mine nerf, the raven nerf and the stalker buff make it pretty much terrible.
Also increase shield battery cost won't change the fact that shield battery + photon canon combo get extremely cancerous late game. I'd suggest to have the shield battery auto casting on units only to have protoss manually micro-manage the batteries on canons to avoid spamming 10 batteries behind 10 canons. The biggest problem of mech in TvP is the vP. Protoss as a race is a hardcounter to mech. Whenever I meet a mech player on ladder I just scream of pure joy. The only time I lose is when I scout horribly and fail I fail to see how that would help him in that game :D Maybe, JUST MAYBE, if he would be able to stop building that army of batteries on the high ground, then MAYBE he would have won Or be better prepared, I don't know.
Proxy robo immortal was one of the hardest strategies to stop pre patch, even without the batteries the new CB makes proxy robo strike insanely early
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On November 22 2017 01:37 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2017 16:21 jpg06051992 wrote:
Fungal no longer roots, has an even smaller radius, cannot be cast while burrowed, and is having it's range drastically reduced from 9 to 7? It is not the fungal range that is getting reduced, it is the infested terran egg that is being thrown a shorter distance.
Still it makes them almost useless. They still need time to hatch, and are slow as hell. Plenty of time to run from them especially when they are thrown further away. Few seconds later u can come back and Zerg has burned all energy...Seems fair concidering how well rounded and powerful casters High Templars are.
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On November 22 2017 03:58 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 00:17 deacon.frost wrote:On November 21 2017 23:40 FanaticCZ wrote:On November 21 2017 22:30 deacon.frost wrote:On November 21 2017 20:59 engesser1 wrote:watch this shit, Inno vs alpha full protoss. Next time he will be sure to see his whole base I guess C'mon, it's a learning phase of the game. In HotS such players lost to 2gate zealot rush in PvZ. On November 21 2017 21:57 JackONeill wrote:
It's crazy to me how blizzard seems to want to have mech work in TvP (buffing the upgrade costs of tech lab upgrades) when it's so blatantly obvious that the mine nerf, the raven nerf and the stalker buff make it pretty much terrible.
Also increase shield battery cost won't change the fact that shield battery + photon canon combo get extremely cancerous late game. I'd suggest to have the shield battery auto casting on units only to have protoss manually micro-manage the batteries on canons to avoid spamming 10 batteries behind 10 canons. The biggest problem of mech in TvP is the vP. Protoss as a race is a hardcounter to mech. Whenever I meet a mech player on ladder I just scream of pure joy. The only time I lose is when I scout horribly and fail I fail to see how that would help him in that game :D Maybe, JUST MAYBE, if he would be able to stop building that army of batteries on the high ground, then MAYBE he would have won Or be better prepared, I don't know. Proxy robo immortal was one of the hardest strategies to stop pre patch, even without the batteries the new CB makes proxy robo strike insanely early
It's a strong build indeed, it may be that new chrono is just to good vs Terran, on the other hand with the oracle nerf you will at least be able to go 1-1-1+ expand without fear of an instant loss to 3:00 oracle builds. This means that if you stall the immortals long enough you can squeeze out a liberator or banshee to help you stabilize, at least immortals can't shoot up.
I think the biggest problem right now is that the fear of 3:00 oracle forces Terran to open so suboptimaly that they are to behind if there opponent does literally anything else. But if Terran does not blind counter 3:00 oracles than they ato lose to that build, you can't even make a reaper to scout because you have to build as many marines as you can to help hold off air units. Scv scout does not tell you enough to know it's oracles in time, to have enough to stop it you have to blindly commit to a counter build. Further blind countering oracles when they do go three minute oracle does not even give you an advantage, it just means your not dead Protoss will be even or ahead of you and can just proceed to play a normal game since they sacrifice very little to get a 3:00 oracle and the unit still has decent utility even if it can't kill you outright. The only situation were it actually leaves you ahead is if some how Protoss screw up and losses the oracle or they comited fully to the proxy sheild battery multiple gateway Allin followup and some how failed to end the game with it. Aditonally right now blind countering oracles makes proxy robo a build order win for Protoss since there's no way to know what Protoss plans to proxy before you have to comit yourself to a build order they can tell from scouting if you've hard countered oracles and just decide to proxy 2 robots instead and automatically win the game. Even if you scout the robots if you've comited to an anti oracle build it's already to late to stop it.
You can do funky allins with ghosts or proxy raxes and play for the base trade if Protoss proxies, but this is initself a form of blind countering since if your opponent went for a standard opening and did not skip detection these kind of proxies are easy to hold with a few stalkers and sheild batteries. They are also much easier to scout and counter than Protoss allins.
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The chronoboost is the issue. Even if you bring the shield battery cost up, and that you nerf the oracle build time a little (6 second helps, but 3:06 instead of 3:00 doesn't prevent the 225 you need to invest into a turret that will only make sure the oracle makes less than 5 kills... it's still 1 to 4 scvs kills), the thing is that protoss has way too much stuff they can throw at you early on.
To be honnest if the cyclone didn't suck that hard, terran would actually be able to open safely in TvP. But since the oracle, the immortal and the stalker (the three big allin units) completely shit on cyclones, you're forced into premptive submission every game.
The cyclone really needs to get its role straight. It's way too expansive to be a general purpose unit, its AG damage is way too unreliable and suceptible to kiting to be a anti ground damage dealer, and its AA damage is way too low to be a good anti air option.
For instance the cyclone would need to get its old lock on back (but only as an AA weapon) to be worth it as an AA option.
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On November 22 2017 05:35 JackONeill wrote:
The chronoboost is the issue. Even if you bring the shield battery cost up, and that you nerf the oracle build time a little (6 second helps, but 3:06 instead of 3:00 doesn't prevent the 225 you need to invest into a turret that will only make sure the oracle makes less than 5 kills... it's still 1 to 4 scvs kills), the thing is that protoss has way too much stuff they can throw at you early on.
To be honnest if the cyclone didn't suck that hard, terran would actually be able to open safely in TvP. But since the oracle, the immortal and the stalker (the three big allin units) completely shit on cyclones, you're forced into premptive submission every game.
The cyclone really needs to get its role straight. It's way too expansive to be a general purpose unit, its AG damage is way too unreliable and suceptible to kiting to be a anti ground damage dealer, and its AA damage is way too low to be a good anti air option.
For instance the cyclone would need to get its old lock on back (but only as an AA weapon) to be worth it as an AA option.
Chrono boost is not the issue, this is the classic chrono, LOTV was the game that disabled tech switches with that awful new chrono. I hope bllizz fix time productions without touching Chrono again.
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terran would actually be able to open safely in TvP.
I think terran player expect too much a no brainer safe fast expand build that could be safe against anything ( proxies)
For example protoss has to cancel fast expand when they get 1-1-1 proxy by T ( at least korean pro are canceling it maybe there is another way i don't know)
Assuming you cancel or don't make your cc at all after scouting double gaz you could afford 2 barracks + factory and deflect both immortals and oracles proxies
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On November 22 2017 06:25 nonoes wrote:I think terran player expect too much a no brainer safe fast expand build that could be safe against anything ( proxies) For example protoss has to cancel fast expand when they get 1-1-1 proxy by T ( at least korean pro are canceling it maybe there is another way i don't know) Assuming you cancel or don't make your cc at all after scouting double gaz you could afford 2 barracks + factory and deflect both immortals and oracles proxies
Who cancels their natural for that? As far as I've seen you chrono a immortal out in time for proxy cyclone, also new stalkers are great vs that.
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I've seen stats hero and maybe sos do that in pro matches.
It was before 4.0 of course during the last big events.
But the idea is still valid : you shouldn't expect to use an economic opening vs proxy cheese.
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Lol, very imba indeed. Let's chill out, I hope after the small adjustments of new patch blizzard gives at least a season, till the game stabilize.
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On November 22 2017 08:02 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 06:25 nonoes wrote: terran would actually be able to open safely in TvP. I think terran player expect too much a no brainer safe fast expand build that could be safe against anything ( proxies) For example protoss has to cancel fast expand when they get 1-1-1 proxy by T ( at least korean pro are canceling it maybe there is another way i don't know) Assuming you cancel or don't make your cc at all after scouting double gaz you could afford 2 barracks + factory and deflect both immortals and oracles proxies Who cancels their natural for that? As far as I've seen you chrono a immortal out in time for proxy cyclone, also new stalkers are great vs that.
defending 3:00 oracle is not a matter of canceling your natural it require you to do one of a very limited set of build orders blindly that all put you behind if your opponent did not open 3:00 oracle or even with the protoss if he does open 3:00 oracle. I'm fine with Terran to be expected to have to defend carefully against allins and to scout, not play to greedy ect this should be expected of every race. Whats not ok is having an opening that is so powerful and dominant that the shear threat of it either completely gimps one race right out the gate or automatically wins the game reliably if they did not gimp themselves. Even when terran opens in a very modest safe way with no potential for early aggression and and an economic deficit with their opponent protoss will still be ahead if they proxied an oracle. This is what 3:00 oracle does, since its very expensive to hard counter it, requires you to build very sub-optimal buildings, like a super early ebay and even when it is countered protoss is fine as long as they don't lose the oracle they can just play a game from ahead since terran put themselves so behind to stop it.
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On November 22 2017 06:25 nonoes wrote:I think terran player expect too much a no brainer safe fast expand build that could be safe against anything ( proxies) For example protoss has to cancel fast expand when they get 1-1-1 proxy by T ( at least korean pro are canceling it maybe there is another way i don't know) Assuming you cancel or don't make your cc at all after scouting double gaz you could afford 2 barracks + factory and deflect both immortals and oracles proxies
If you think that you can, in TvP, afford to cancel your CC when you're getting cheesed, you're dearly mistaken.
The entire art of defending protoss cheeses as terran is to be able to hold while still being able to afford a CC if you don't want to end up extremely far behind even if you defended the cheese.
If you cancel your CC, and go for something like 1/1/1 marine tanks medivacs (pretty much the safest thing you can do), if the protoss player doesn't mindlessly suicides his entire force into your defenses, he'll be able to land a nexus and just macro out of it, and you'll be behind. And you won't be able to cross the map to punish.
Watch any terran pro player holding off a protoss allin they'll ALWAYS try to keep/land their second CC because they know this.
I think you lack knowledge about how this matchup works to state stuff like that.
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i've played a few games tonight with the patch and i like the changes so far. people have brought up a change to how Chronoboost works. i think some kind of modification to Protoss Chronoboost is worth experimenting with.
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Remember when builds that could outright kill you required proper commitment instead of being something that hits at 3 minutes and doesn't deviate from a normal macro build almost at all?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Oh noez, Inno attacked into a trap and it didn't work out for him.
OMFG, at least defend something where the player doesn't do an error.
Inno scouts 1 base Protoss, fails to defend a cheese. It's a ladder, you can't expect everyone will go 3 base macro game. While trying to defend this Protoss builds half of his buildings in the base of Innovation.
Inno runs into a stasis ward while hunting down a colossi.
Do you actually want a "I win" button for Terrans or what? 1 base aggressive opening should win against 1rax CC opening every time. This is not about Protoss BS this is about 12 worker start where the standard scout arrives too late to change the tactics. Many players spoke against this. Even P players! I know, it's a shock.
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On November 22 2017 17:09 deacon.frost wrote:Oh noez, Inno attacked into a trap and it didn't work out for him. OMFG, at least defend something where the player doesn't do an error. Inno scouts 1 base Protoss, fails to defend a cheese. It's a ladder, you can't expect everyone will go 3 base macro game. While trying to defend this Protoss builds half of his buildings in the base of Innovation. Inno runs into a stasis ward while hunting down a colossi. Do you actually want a "I win" button for Terrans or what? 1 base aggressive opening should win against 1rax CC opening every time. This is not about Protoss BS this is about 12 worker start where the standard scout arrives too late to change the tactics. Many players spoke against this. Even P players! I know, it's a shock.
That last game he linked is a stupid post. INno actually won that game. :D
But the one with the shield battery robo all-in is a legit concern I think.
Its not true that you should die to a 1 base all in with 1 rax CC. The whole point has always been that you need to survive with your eco advantage against the all in. Not to go 1 base vs 1 base to actually have a chance at surviving.
That thing in the first game he posted just screams bullshit. :D unkillable immortal so early in the game...
I did not see the game from Ps pov but i suppose he built those batteries under a warp prism so he didnt even need to wait for a pylon, while he had the immortal t o defend with other shield batteries in range down on the low ground.
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EPT
