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On November 29 2017 10:14 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 09:58 pvsnp wrote:On November 29 2017 09:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 08:17 washikie wrote:On November 29 2017 05:19 pvsnp wrote:On November 29 2017 05:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 04:27 pvsnp wrote:Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that. Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future. If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times. Mech TvP isn't a real thing (at least so far)-some people have been trying it out of desperation mostly, but nothing that has made mech unviable in the matchup all these years has changed. Also I think Zerg still has game against skytoss after the infestor nerfs--they're certainly better off than pre-4.0. Tbh I doubt Zerg will be in trouble even if Skytoss becomes a freewin like the whiners claim. Zerg still has the exact same LBH pushes that were a nightmare for Protoss until they figured out how to do mass Oracle shenanigans–and Oracles have been significantly nerfed since then. PvT is the most problematic matchup still, even the balance team knows it: "...areas that we are especially keeping an eye on include things like: Widow Mine usage post nerf, Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran, overall effectiveness of Terran Bio, timings with the new Chrono Boost, Raven strength and the late game strength of Zerg." 5/6 of those watched things are major factors in PvT. The Oracle was just the tip of the iceberg. another thing to note about zvp is that the lurker is once again quite strong against protoss, the new burrow speed means that once a critical mass of lurkers is reached protoss has little ability to contest the ground and has to switch into air to deal with them. Right now they are only gaining in popularity but I predict that they will become a core part of the meta as zerg figure out how to reach lurkers safely, and what lurker hydra timings you can hit protoss with to punish an air switch. The hive requirement makes it difficult, but it does make lurkers absolutely insane. It's an upgrade that I expect will be fine right now, but completely broken maybe six months down the line. Slaughters bio too, not that any terrans are going bio. Tanks murder Lurkers though and anytime Z goes Lurker, T will already have Tanks for the Hydras. By Hive I would expect T to have Libs anyhow. I doubt Lurkers will be much of a problem for T. Since bio isn't being played I don't have games to base things on, but with the upgrade lurkers burrow in a quarter of the time it takes to siege a tank and move almost as fast as stimmed bio (and faster than banelings). So they might very well have a place in the match-up if bio were viable. Better harassment than banelings, and maybe even better in big engagements.
Lurkers are formidable, no doubt about that, but are they really better than Ultras? Assuming the Terran goes for bio, investing in Lurkers will delay the standard Ultra transition that usually comes after Hive. Sure they are cheaper than Ultras, but 150/150 is not that much less gas than 300/200.
In any case, the Terran response should still be to build Liberators, and Lurkers don't shoot up.
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On November 29 2017 12:07 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 10:14 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 09:58 pvsnp wrote:On November 29 2017 09:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 08:17 washikie wrote:On November 29 2017 05:19 pvsnp wrote:On November 29 2017 05:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 04:27 pvsnp wrote:Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that. Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future. If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times. Mech TvP isn't a real thing (at least so far)-some people have been trying it out of desperation mostly, but nothing that has made mech unviable in the matchup all these years has changed. Also I think Zerg still has game against skytoss after the infestor nerfs--they're certainly better off than pre-4.0. Tbh I doubt Zerg will be in trouble even if Skytoss becomes a freewin like the whiners claim. Zerg still has the exact same LBH pushes that were a nightmare for Protoss until they figured out how to do mass Oracle shenanigans–and Oracles have been significantly nerfed since then. PvT is the most problematic matchup still, even the balance team knows it: "...areas that we are especially keeping an eye on include things like: Widow Mine usage post nerf, Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran, overall effectiveness of Terran Bio, timings with the new Chrono Boost, Raven strength and the late game strength of Zerg." 5/6 of those watched things are major factors in PvT. The Oracle was just the tip of the iceberg. another thing to note about zvp is that the lurker is once again quite strong against protoss, the new burrow speed means that once a critical mass of lurkers is reached protoss has little ability to contest the ground and has to switch into air to deal with them. Right now they are only gaining in popularity but I predict that they will become a core part of the meta as zerg figure out how to reach lurkers safely, and what lurker hydra timings you can hit protoss with to punish an air switch. The hive requirement makes it difficult, but it does make lurkers absolutely insane. It's an upgrade that I expect will be fine right now, but completely broken maybe six months down the line. Slaughters bio too, not that any terrans are going bio. Tanks murder Lurkers though and anytime Z goes Lurker, T will already have Tanks for the Hydras. By Hive I would expect T to have Libs anyhow. I doubt Lurkers will be much of a problem for T. Since bio isn't being played I don't have games to base things on, but with the upgrade lurkers burrow in a quarter of the time it takes to siege a tank and move almost as fast as stimmed bio (and faster than banelings). So they might very well have a place in the match-up if bio were viable. Better harassment than banelings, and maybe even better in big engagements. Lurkers are formidable, no doubt about that, but are they really better than Ultras? Assuming the Terran goes for bio, investing in Lurkers will delay the standard Ultra transition that usually comes after Hive. Sure they are cheaper than Ultras, but 150/150 is not that much less gas than 300/200. In any case, the Terran response should still be to build Liberators, and Lurkers don't shoot up.
I'd consider lurkers better than ultras under some, possibly most, circumstances since while they're squishier they're faster, have range, harass better and do so much more damage in large fights, but this is little more than guesswork while bio's trash.
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On November 29 2017 08:15 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 07:40 jpg06051992 wrote:
And last but not least, more Infestor nerfs for Zerg. Why exactly, where they breaking the meta or something? Removing root from Fungal and making it a slow is a fantastic design change that should have been done back in WoL, but it's still a heavy nerf that wasn't compensated with any type of buff. They don't want mass infestor styles back in the meta which we were already starting to see at HSC. The Oracle and Raven changes were specifically aimed at preventing massing spellcasters, there's no reason why infestors should be exempt from that rule. Also, as has already been said, there was compensation, namely a large radius buff from 2.0 to 2.5. The new nerfed radius 2.25 is still larger than pre-4.0. A 75% snare isn't all that different from a root anyway. You still can't split or kite snared units in any meaningful way, it only affects niche scenarios like fungal-bile or chain-fungalling a clump of air units at the very edge of your range. The 2.5 radius fungal was a net buff overall, which wasn't justified at all.
I'd only like to add that High Templars are extremely powerful when massed but for the most part these points are pretty fair.
I still think this balance team is moving things in the right direction, they at least seem to have a concrete vision of what they want to do as far as giving Terran more mech options, making Protoss more traditional (no hero units) and weaning them off of oppressive mineral line killers, and giving Zerg more ground holding potential with stronger late game Lurkers.
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On November 29 2017 12:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 12:07 pvsnp wrote:On November 29 2017 10:14 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 09:58 pvsnp wrote:On November 29 2017 09:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 08:17 washikie wrote:On November 29 2017 05:19 pvsnp wrote:On November 29 2017 05:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 04:27 pvsnp wrote:Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that. Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future. If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times. Mech TvP isn't a real thing (at least so far)-some people have been trying it out of desperation mostly, but nothing that has made mech unviable in the matchup all these years has changed. Also I think Zerg still has game against skytoss after the infestor nerfs--they're certainly better off than pre-4.0. Tbh I doubt Zerg will be in trouble even if Skytoss becomes a freewin like the whiners claim. Zerg still has the exact same LBH pushes that were a nightmare for Protoss until they figured out how to do mass Oracle shenanigans–and Oracles have been significantly nerfed since then. PvT is the most problematic matchup still, even the balance team knows it: "...areas that we are especially keeping an eye on include things like: Widow Mine usage post nerf, Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran, overall effectiveness of Terran Bio, timings with the new Chrono Boost, Raven strength and the late game strength of Zerg." 5/6 of those watched things are major factors in PvT. The Oracle was just the tip of the iceberg. another thing to note about zvp is that the lurker is once again quite strong against protoss, the new burrow speed means that once a critical mass of lurkers is reached protoss has little ability to contest the ground and has to switch into air to deal with them. Right now they are only gaining in popularity but I predict that they will become a core part of the meta as zerg figure out how to reach lurkers safely, and what lurker hydra timings you can hit protoss with to punish an air switch. The hive requirement makes it difficult, but it does make lurkers absolutely insane. It's an upgrade that I expect will be fine right now, but completely broken maybe six months down the line. Slaughters bio too, not that any terrans are going bio. Tanks murder Lurkers though and anytime Z goes Lurker, T will already have Tanks for the Hydras. By Hive I would expect T to have Libs anyhow. I doubt Lurkers will be much of a problem for T. Since bio isn't being played I don't have games to base things on, but with the upgrade lurkers burrow in a quarter of the time it takes to siege a tank and move almost as fast as stimmed bio (and faster than banelings). So they might very well have a place in the match-up if bio were viable. Better harassment than banelings, and maybe even better in big engagements. Lurkers are formidable, no doubt about that, but are they really better than Ultras? Assuming the Terran goes for bio, investing in Lurkers will delay the standard Ultra transition that usually comes after Hive. Sure they are cheaper than Ultras, but 150/150 is not that much less gas than 300/200. In any case, the Terran response should still be to build Liberators, and Lurkers don't shoot up. I'd consider lurkers better than ultras under some, possibly most, circumstances since while they're squishier they're faster, have range, harass better and do so much more damage in large fights, but this is little more than guesswork while bio's trash.
I suppose you're right, it's might be an issue but that's something that can be addressed if and when bio returns to TvZ. I doubt we'll see.
Though now that I think of it, wouldn't upgraded Lurkers be good against mech too? Since a mech army functions similarly to a Protoss deathball and so forth.
Unlike Colossi, Tanks outrange Lurkers but with their upgrade I could see some potential for Lurker harass to force repeated siege-ups and so forth.
EDIT: I went and checked the numbers. Lurkers take 0.7 seconds to burrow, have a range of 10 and need 1.25 seconds to hit a target at max range. Assuming they unburrow and run as the Tanks siege up, that's another 0.5 seconds plus however long it takes to run out of Tank range (13). Total time is 0.7+1.25+0.5 = 2.45 seconds, plus a maximum of 0.75 seconds of random burrow delay. Tanks need 3 seconds to siege up.
So I'm thinking that even with some fancy micro to get the right range and burrow/unburrow timings, it won't be worth it. Especially because a success would deal 30 damage whereas a failure means eating 70 damage.
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Well, I might as well work out the math while I've got the numbers in front of me. An upgraded Lurker has a movement speed of 4.54 off creep and 5.91 on creep. Assuming perfect micro from both players, a Lurker will be ten cells away from a Tank and so needs to cover three cells after unburrowing to be safe. This will take 0.66 seconds off creep and 0.51 seconds on creep. But since we are assuming perfect micro, we must also account for the fact that a Tank has 11 Sight and will see the Lurker one cell before it burrows, so we must add an additional 0.22 or 0.17 seconds depending on creep. Then we must factor in the random burrow delay. Assuming the delay follows a uniform probability distribution, then burrowing adds 0.125 seconds and unburrowing 0.25 seconds on average.
So at the end of the day even on creep, 2.45+0.51+0.17+0.125+0.25 = 3.51, meaning that the poor Lurker is going to get a Tank shot in the ass, upgrades or no.
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One thing is for certain, those who whine the most get their changes the fastest.
A perfect comment from reddit,
"...oh good, they lowered the cost of the absurd "free cloaked ranged unit that shows up at your base two minutes in" that is the ghost so its even stronger
also this panic nerfing to toss means terran never get to use "let the meta evolve" to justify when they're op as fuck ever again. - pastalegion
Reminds me of when PvT winrate was 40% that one specific period this year and terrans just told me to adjust to liberators ect. ect. but instead I had to wait months for that nerf.
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On November 29 2017 07:40 jpg06051992 wrote:
The Protoss nerfs are in the right direction, changing Pulsar to damage that armor can mitigate is very smart and some shield battery rushes are becoming kind of cancer. Protoss is already stupidly reliant on oppressive units like the Oracle, I'm hoping the balance team can keep tweaking Protoss to not be so dependent on gimmick mineral line killers to be current in the meta.
And last but not least, more Infestor nerfs for Zerg. Why exactly, where they breaking the meta or something? Removing root from Fungal and making it a slow is a fantastic design change that should have been done back in WoL, but it's still a heavy nerf that wasn't compensated with any type of buff. Now on top of that, the radius is smaller, and it cannot be cast while burrowed? Not that I thought that burrow + fungal was very fun or fair so I'm happy with it gone, but there was a REASON that the Infestor was made that way in the first place, and it's because they are absurdly vulnerable.
Idk, it's not going to make Zerg unplayable by any means but this is 3 heavy handed nerfs in a row to the Infestor, at the very least they should buff the damage capabilities of Fungal at this point, the Infestor is still just as squishy and vulnerable as ever so I'm not sure why High Templars get the noob treatment with a attack command so they don't go wandering off despite being very strong units that are a regular in all 3 match ups vs the Infestor which seems to be taking the nerf bat pretty regularly.
The Oracles' pulsar beam is no longer mitigated by armour. That change got reversed.
If you are counting fungal no longer rooting and not being cast while burrowed as changes, then fungal radius should be counted as a buff. Radius when fungal rooted was 2.0. Radius now is 2.25. That is an increase, not a nerf.
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On November 29 2017 15:58 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 07:40 jpg06051992 wrote:
The Protoss nerfs are in the right direction, changing Pulsar to damage that armor can mitigate is very smart and some shield battery rushes are becoming kind of cancer. Protoss is already stupidly reliant on oppressive units like the Oracle, I'm hoping the balance team can keep tweaking Protoss to not be so dependent on gimmick mineral line killers to be current in the meta.
And last but not least, more Infestor nerfs for Zerg. Why exactly, where they breaking the meta or something? Removing root from Fungal and making it a slow is a fantastic design change that should have been done back in WoL, but it's still a heavy nerf that wasn't compensated with any type of buff. Now on top of that, the radius is smaller, and it cannot be cast while burrowed? Not that I thought that burrow + fungal was very fun or fair so I'm happy with it gone, but there was a REASON that the Infestor was made that way in the first place, and it's because they are absurdly vulnerable.
Idk, it's not going to make Zerg unplayable by any means but this is 3 heavy handed nerfs in a row to the Infestor, at the very least they should buff the damage capabilities of Fungal at this point, the Infestor is still just as squishy and vulnerable as ever so I'm not sure why High Templars get the noob treatment with a attack command so they don't go wandering off despite being very strong units that are a regular in all 3 match ups vs the Infestor which seems to be taking the nerf bat pretty regularly.
The Oracles' pulsar beam is no longer mitigated by armour. That change got reversed. If you are counting fungal no longer rooting and not being cast while burrowed as changes, then fungal radius should be counted as a buff. Radius when fungal rooted was 2.0. Radius now is 2.25. That is an increase, not a nerf.
Had to go back and re read the patch notes on the spell damage, I completely missed that. And I also didn't realize the + 0.25, to be honest there has been so many things changed with the last patch that there are some things that are still hitting me in the game and I'm realizing, "Whoa, totally forgot that ended up being changed to this."
...lol, like the Lurker Den being a separate building xD
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On November 29 2017 16:21 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 15:58 Drfilip wrote:On November 29 2017 07:40 jpg06051992 wrote:
The Protoss nerfs are in the right direction, changing Pulsar to damage that armor can mitigate is very smart and some shield battery rushes are becoming kind of cancer. Protoss is already stupidly reliant on oppressive units like the Oracle, I'm hoping the balance team can keep tweaking Protoss to not be so dependent on gimmick mineral line killers to be current in the meta.
And last but not least, more Infestor nerfs for Zerg. Why exactly, where they breaking the meta or something? Removing root from Fungal and making it a slow is a fantastic design change that should have been done back in WoL, but it's still a heavy nerf that wasn't compensated with any type of buff. Now on top of that, the radius is smaller, and it cannot be cast while burrowed? Not that I thought that burrow + fungal was very fun or fair so I'm happy with it gone, but there was a REASON that the Infestor was made that way in the first place, and it's because they are absurdly vulnerable.
Idk, it's not going to make Zerg unplayable by any means but this is 3 heavy handed nerfs in a row to the Infestor, at the very least they should buff the damage capabilities of Fungal at this point, the Infestor is still just as squishy and vulnerable as ever so I'm not sure why High Templars get the noob treatment with a attack command so they don't go wandering off despite being very strong units that are a regular in all 3 match ups vs the Infestor which seems to be taking the nerf bat pretty regularly.
The Oracles' pulsar beam is no longer mitigated by armour. That change got reversed. If you are counting fungal no longer rooting and not being cast while burrowed as changes, then fungal radius should be counted as a buff. Radius when fungal rooted was 2.0. Radius now is 2.25. That is an increase, not a nerf. Had to go back and re read the patch notes on the spell damage, I completely missed that. And I also didn't realize the + 0.25, to be honest there has been so many things changed with the last patch that there are some things that are still hitting me in the game and I'm realizing, "Whoa, totally forgot that ended up being changed to this." ...lol, like the Lurker Den being a separate building xD
I think they made the Lurker Den a separate building to mitigate the effect of getting it sniped. Though it does also mean you can get Muscular Augment at the same time as a Lurker Den if you want to.
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On November 29 2017 15:17 youngjiddle wrote:
One thing is for certain, those who whine the most get their changes the fastest.
A perfect comment from reddit,
"...oh good, they lowered the cost of the absurd "free cloaked ranged unit that shows up at your base two minutes in" that is the ghost so its even stronger
also this panic nerfing to toss means terran never get to use "let the meta evolve" to justify when they're op as fuck ever again. - pastalegion
Reminds me of when PvT winrate was 40% that one specific period this year and terrans just told me to adjust to liberators ect. ect. but instead I had to wait months for that nerf.
Pls link to the pro game where Ghost rush was used.
It's not a thing, it's just a troll build.
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On November 29 2017 17:36 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 15:17 youngjiddle wrote:
One thing is for certain, those who whine the most get their changes the fastest.
A perfect comment from reddit,
"...oh good, they lowered the cost of the absurd "free cloaked ranged unit that shows up at your base two minutes in" that is the ghost so its even stronger
also this panic nerfing to toss means terran never get to use "let the meta evolve" to justify when they're op as fuck ever again. - pastalegion
Reminds me of when PvT winrate was 40% that one specific period this year and terrans just told me to adjust to liberators ect. ect. but instead I had to wait months for that nerf. Pls link to the pro game where Ghost rush was used. It's not a thing, it's just a troll build.
I may be remembering this wrong, but didn't DeMusliM ghost rush Stats at HSC (killed like 9 probes, but still lost)? I'd still call it a really weak build though, since it basically (by DeMusliM's own admission) folds to a shield battery in the mineral line.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Is the Shield Battery really that strong early/mid game? I don't see a +25 mineral cost to be an issue in lategame for Protoss who are usually gas starved.
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Isn't there a thread with the real update changes?
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EPT
