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On November 28 2017 18:03 ejozl wrote:
And we also have a patch on it's way...
I actually think Ghosts will be a bit too strong, but I'm excited to play against Terrans utilizing Ghosts. It's a heavy skill unit that requires you to actually hotkey your units, instead of mindlessly dropping all the time. In WoL Ghosts were slightly favoured vs High Templar style and at the time they cost 150/150, 1 shot HT's and almost didn't do any dmg to Zealots with Snipe. Now they come with Cloak, they are way faster, Snipe is about same power level, it's way worse vs HT's, but it can now 1 shot Zealots/Adepts, they also cost 150/125.
Terran will have a scary death ball whether they go for Bio+Ghosts, or Mech+Ghosts. Now it might be Protoss' time to drop and pull the Terran apart.
I think the Ghost will be weaker vs Protoss in the mid game, because the Ghost starts with less energie, so Toss has a larger time window befor Terran get's EMP. Cloak and Snipe are not very usefull vs Protoss.
against Zerg, however, the new Ghost will be much better.
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On November 28 2017 18:03 ejozl wrote:
And we also have a patch on it's way...
I actually think Ghosts will be a bit too strong, but I'm excited to play against Terrans utilizing Ghosts. It's a heavy skill unit that requires you to actually hotkey your units, instead of mindlessly dropping all the time. In WoL Ghosts were slightly favoured vs High Templar style and at the time they cost 150/150, 1 shot HT's and almost didn't do any dmg to Zealots with Snipe. Now they come with Cloak, they are way faster, Snipe is about same power level, it's way worse vs HT's, but it can now 1 shot Zealots/Adepts, they also cost 150/125.
Terran will have a scary death ball whether they go for Bio+Ghosts, or Mech+Ghosts. Now it might be Protoss' time to drop and pull the Terran apart.
EMP has been nerfed quite severely - both in radius and the energy damage. Since those nerfs, the ghost vs HT dance has not been ghost favoured. Plenty of times you'd see ghosts lining up the old snipe (0.5 sec animation) and get killed by feedback. Or ghosts landing EMPs but not hitting enough HTs or draining enough energy and HTs getting off storms.
Second, pulling off multiple drops is not mindless. That's one of the greatest mechanical-difference between Korean and Foreign Terrans (along with impeccable splits and target-firing; just off the top of my head.) I think their skill deserves a little more respect from you.
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On November 28 2017 20:28 MrWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 18:03 ejozl wrote:
And we also have a patch on it's way...
I actually think Ghosts will be a bit too strong, but I'm excited to play against Terrans utilizing Ghosts. It's a heavy skill unit that requires you to actually hotkey your units, instead of mindlessly dropping all the time. In WoL Ghosts were slightly favoured vs High Templar style and at the time they cost 150/150, 1 shot HT's and almost didn't do any dmg to Zealots with Snipe. Now they come with Cloak, they are way faster, Snipe is about same power level, it's way worse vs HT's, but it can now 1 shot Zealots/Adepts, they also cost 150/125.
Terran will have a scary death ball whether they go for Bio+Ghosts, or Mech+Ghosts. Now it might be Protoss' time to drop and pull the Terran apart. I think the Ghost will be weaker vs Protoss in the mid game, because the Ghost starts with less energie, so Toss has a larger time window befor Terran get's EMP. Cloak and Snipe are not very usefull vs Protoss. against Zerg, however, the new Ghost will be much better.
The ghost is worse against Protoss since EMP is by far the most important thing about ghosts in the match-up. It's better against Zerg when played with bio, but bio is almost extinct. Ghost cheeses are much stronger generally admittedly, but I don't think it's a good thing.
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Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911
Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that.
Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future.
If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times.
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I'm not even mad about the Infestor nerf even though it will hit my lategame hard.
I'm however sad about Blizzard once again focusing on "meching it happen". Mech is just super boring watch and play against. It's not even that I can't beat it, it's that I don't want to. There really is no other playstyle that does this to me.
I'd rather get banerushed in ZvZ all day than face Mech even more often. :/
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On November 29 2017 04:27 pvsnp wrote:Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that. Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future. If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times.
Mech TvP isn't a real thing (at least so far)-some people have been trying it out of desperation mostly, but nothing that has made mech unviable in the matchup all these years has changed.
Also I think Zerg still has game against skytoss after the infestor nerfs--they're certainly better off than pre-4.0.
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On November 29 2017 05:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 04:27 pvsnp wrote:Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that. Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future. If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times. Mech TvP isn't a real thing (at least so far)-some people have been trying it out of desperation mostly, but nothing that has made mech unviable in the matchup all these years has changed. Also I think Zerg still has game against skytoss after the infestor nerfs--they're certainly better off than pre-4.0.
Tbh I doubt Zerg will be in trouble even if Skytoss becomes a freewin like the whiners claim. Zerg still has the exact same LBH pushes that were a nightmare for Protoss until they figured out how to do mass Oracle shenanigans–and Oracles have been significantly nerfed since then.
PvT is the most problematic matchup still, even the balance team knows it:
"...areas that we are especially keeping an eye on include things like: Widow Mine usage post nerf, Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran, overall effectiveness of Terran Bio, timings with the new Chrono Boost, Raven strength and the late game strength of Zerg."
5/6 of those watched things are major factors in PvT. The Oracle was just the tip of the iceberg.
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I don't like how they addressed the oracle, they weakened proxy oracle but also macro oracle openers and I'm not stoked to play against stalker openers from now on.
Also mech is not going to be viable meta in TvP no matter how bad bio might be because chargelot/immortal/archon still demolishes ground mech.
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On November 29 2017 05:19 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 05:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 04:27 pvsnp wrote:Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that. Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future. If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times. Mech TvP isn't a real thing (at least so far)-some people have been trying it out of desperation mostly, but nothing that has made mech unviable in the matchup all these years has changed. Also I think Zerg still has game against skytoss after the infestor nerfs--they're certainly better off than pre-4.0. Tbh I doubt Zerg will be in trouble even if Skytoss becomes a freewin like the whiners claim. Zerg still has the exact same LBH pushes that were a nightmare for Protoss until they figured out how to do mass Oracle shenanigans–and Oracles have been significantly nerfed since then. PvT is the most problematic matchup still, even the balance team knows it: "...areas that we are especially keeping an eye on include things like: Widow Mine usage post nerf, Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran, overall effectiveness of Terran Bio, timings with the new Chrono Boost, Raven strength and the late game strength of Zerg." 5/6 of those watched things are major factors in PvT. The Oracle was just the tip of the iceberg.
Arguably PvP is in a similarly problematic state, but it gets much less attention since it's not a balance concern. The shield battery and all the other changes just aren't as good at protecting Protoss from dying early on against Protoss or Zerg, but are significantly better against Terran, which makes balancing things awkward.
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On November 29 2017 05:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 05:19 pvsnp wrote:On November 29 2017 05:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 04:27 pvsnp wrote:Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that. Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future. If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times. Mech TvP isn't a real thing (at least so far)-some people have been trying it out of desperation mostly, but nothing that has made mech unviable in the matchup all these years has changed. Also I think Zerg still has game against skytoss after the infestor nerfs--they're certainly better off than pre-4.0. Tbh I doubt Zerg will be in trouble even if Skytoss becomes a freewin like the whiners claim. Zerg still has the exact same LBH pushes that were a nightmare for Protoss until they figured out how to do mass Oracle shenanigans–and Oracles have been significantly nerfed since then. PvT is the most problematic matchup still, even the balance team knows it: "...areas that we are especially keeping an eye on include things like: Widow Mine usage post nerf, Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran, overall effectiveness of Terran Bio, timings with the new Chrono Boost, Raven strength and the late game strength of Zerg." 5/6 of those watched things are major factors in PvT. The Oracle was just the tip of the iceberg. Arguably PvP is in a similarly problematic state, but it gets much less attention since it's not a balance concern. The shield battery and all the other changes just aren't as good at protecting Protoss from dying early on against Protoss or Zerg, but are significantly better against Terran, which makes balancing things awkward.
Balancing things is always awkward, but you do have a point with the whole SB being particularly awkward–there's a reason the balance team never dared to remove the MSC before now.
I think no matter what they did, the MSC removal was bound to cause imbalance, it was just a question of whether Protoss became way too weak or way too strong. In this case, it was the latter, so I would not at all be surprised to see more Protoss nerfs (or Terran buffs) in the upcoming future.
But iterative solutions are probably the best approach, so I'm reasonably satisfied with their current approach.
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I'm pretty sure Infestors are worse off now than before 4.0. Fungal getting changed to a slow was a nerf already, and not being able to cast it while burrowed and an imperceptible radius change mean it's even worse than it was before. Infested Terrans can't even be spawned from out of range of Carriers or Colossi, so Infestors are just going to get melted when they try to do anything against Skytoss, which is what they're supposed to be good against. Zerg is in even more of a "kill them before they get there" situation than ever before in the matchup with no answer to Skytoss.
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On November 29 2017 05:40 Solar424 wrote:
I'm pretty sure Infestors are worse off now than before 4.0. Fungal getting changed to a slow was a nerf already, and not being able to cast it while burrowed and an imperceptible radius change mean it's even worse than it was before. Infested Terrans can't even be spawned from out of range of Carriers or Colossi, so Infestors are just going to get melted when they try to do anything against Skytoss, which is what they're supposed to be good against. Zerg is in even more of a "kill them before they get there" situation than ever before in the matchup with no answer to Skytoss.
I mentioned this in an earlier post, but Zerg should be just fine against Protoss even if Skytoss truly was a freewin (it isn't). LBH timings slaughtered Protoss until they figured out how to do mass Oracle shenanigans, and Oracles have been repeatedly nerfed since then whereas LBH is exactly the same as it used to be.
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On November 29 2017 05:40 Solar424 wrote:
I'm pretty sure Infestors are worse off now than before 4.0. Fungal getting changed to a slow was a nerf already, and not being able to cast it while burrowed and an imperceptible radius change mean it's even worse than it was before. Infested Terrans can't even be spawned from out of range of Carriers or Colossi, so Infestors are just going to get melted when they try to do anything against Skytoss, which is what they're supposed to be good against. Zerg is in even more of a "kill them before they get there" situation than ever before in the matchup with no answer to Skytoss.
The radius change is still a 25% area increase which isn't nothing, and slow vs lockdown isn't a huge deal in large fights. Infested terrans do deal much more damage against air too even if getting them into the fight is harder. And parasitic bomb is pretty good now (probably too good against vikings tbh). So I'm still hopeful.
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Okay...
So the Terran upgrade buffs seem a bit overdone. Upgrade pricing from 150/150 to 75/75, that's a huge price reduction for an upgrade to a unit that is already very strong and quite popular in the meta with Cyclone/Hellion/Medivac pushes. I'm alright with the drilling claws upgrade because let's be honest, visible while reloading while better design no doubt is a huge nerf.
The Protoss nerfs are in the right direction, changing Pulsar to damage that armor can mitigate is very smart and some shield battery rushes are becoming kind of cancer. Protoss is already stupidly reliant on oppressive units like the Oracle, I'm hoping the balance team can keep tweaking Protoss to not be so dependent on gimmick mineral line killers to be current in the meta.
And last but not least, more Infestor nerfs for Zerg. Why exactly, where they breaking the meta or something? Removing root from Fungal and making it a slow is a fantastic design change that should have been done back in WoL, but it's still a heavy nerf that wasn't compensated with any type of buff. Now on top of that, the radius is smaller, and it cannot be cast while burrowed? Not that I thought that burrow + fungal was very fun or fair so I'm happy with it gone, but there was a REASON that the Infestor was made that way in the first place, and it's because they are absurdly vulnerable.
Idk, it's not going to make Zerg unplayable by any means but this is 3 heavy handed nerfs in a row to the Infestor, at the very least they should buff the damage capabilities of Fungal at this point, the Infestor is still just as squishy and vulnerable as ever so I'm not sure why High Templars get the noob treatment with a attack command so they don't go wandering off despite being very strong units that are a regular in all 3 match ups vs the Infestor which seems to be taking the nerf bat pretty regularly.
Still having lots of fun, I feel like this balance team is on the right track, the game feels better.
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On November 29 2017 07:40 jpg06051992 wrote:
And last but not least, more Infestor nerfs for Zerg. Why exactly, where they breaking the meta or something? Removing root from Fungal and making it a slow is a fantastic design change that should have been done back in WoL, but it's still a heavy nerf that wasn't compensated with any type of buff.
They don't want mass infestor styles back in the meta which we were already starting to see at HSC. The Oracle and Raven changes were specifically aimed at preventing massing spellcasters, there's no reason why infestors should be exempt from that rule.
Also, as has already been said, there was compensation, namely a large radius buff from 2.0 to 2.5. The new nerfed radius 2.25 is still larger than pre-4.0.
A 75% snare isn't all that different from a root anyway. You still can't split or kite snared units in any meaningful way, it only affects niche scenarios like fungal-bile or chain-fungalling a clump of air units at the very edge of your range. The 2.5 radius fungal was a net buff overall, which wasn't justified at all.
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On November 29 2017 05:19 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 05:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 04:27 pvsnp wrote:Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that. Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future. If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times. Mech TvP isn't a real thing (at least so far)-some people have been trying it out of desperation mostly, but nothing that has made mech unviable in the matchup all these years has changed. Also I think Zerg still has game against skytoss after the infestor nerfs--they're certainly better off than pre-4.0. Tbh I doubt Zerg will be in trouble even if Skytoss becomes a freewin like the whiners claim. Zerg still has the exact same LBH pushes that were a nightmare for Protoss until they figured out how to do mass Oracle shenanigans–and Oracles have been significantly nerfed since then. PvT is the most problematic matchup still, even the balance team knows it: "...areas that we are especially keeping an eye on include things like: Widow Mine usage post nerf, Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran, overall effectiveness of Terran Bio, timings with the new Chrono Boost, Raven strength and the late game strength of Zerg." 5/6 of those watched things are major factors in PvT. The Oracle was just the tip of the iceberg.
another thing to note about zvp is that the lurker is once again quite strong against protoss, the new burrow speed means that once a critical mass of lurkers is reached protoss has little ability to contest the ground and has to switch into air to deal with them. Right now they are only gaining in popularity but I predict that they will become a core part of the meta as zerg figure out how to reach lurkers safely, and what lurker hydra timings you can hit protoss with to punish an air switch.
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ByuN just played mech against toss on stream ( and lost to carriers ), but it looked strong in mid game. Cyclone held off oracles and stalkers pretty good.
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On November 29 2017 08:17 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 05:19 pvsnp wrote:On November 29 2017 05:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 04:27 pvsnp wrote:Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that. Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future. If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times. Mech TvP isn't a real thing (at least so far)-some people have been trying it out of desperation mostly, but nothing that has made mech unviable in the matchup all these years has changed. Also I think Zerg still has game against skytoss after the infestor nerfs--they're certainly better off than pre-4.0. Tbh I doubt Zerg will be in trouble even if Skytoss becomes a freewin like the whiners claim. Zerg still has the exact same LBH pushes that were a nightmare for Protoss until they figured out how to do mass Oracle shenanigans–and Oracles have been significantly nerfed since then. PvT is the most problematic matchup still, even the balance team knows it: "...areas that we are especially keeping an eye on include things like: Widow Mine usage post nerf, Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran, overall effectiveness of Terran Bio, timings with the new Chrono Boost, Raven strength and the late game strength of Zerg." 5/6 of those watched things are major factors in PvT. The Oracle was just the tip of the iceberg. another thing to note about zvp is that the lurker is once again quite strong against protoss, the new burrow speed means that once a critical mass of lurkers is reached protoss has little ability to contest the ground and has to switch into air to deal with them. Right now they are only gaining in popularity but I predict that they will become a core part of the meta as zerg figure out how to reach lurkers safely, and what lurker hydra timings you can hit protoss with to punish an air switch.
The hive requirement makes it difficult, but it does make lurkers absolutely insane. It's an upgrade that I expect will be fine right now, but completely broken maybe six months down the line. Slaughters bio too, not that any terrans are going bio.
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On November 29 2017 09:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 08:17 washikie wrote:On November 29 2017 05:19 pvsnp wrote:On November 29 2017 05:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 04:27 pvsnp wrote:Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that. Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future. If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times. Mech TvP isn't a real thing (at least so far)-some people have been trying it out of desperation mostly, but nothing that has made mech unviable in the matchup all these years has changed. Also I think Zerg still has game against skytoss after the infestor nerfs--they're certainly better off than pre-4.0. Tbh I doubt Zerg will be in trouble even if Skytoss becomes a freewin like the whiners claim. Zerg still has the exact same LBH pushes that were a nightmare for Protoss until they figured out how to do mass Oracle shenanigans–and Oracles have been significantly nerfed since then. PvT is the most problematic matchup still, even the balance team knows it: "...areas that we are especially keeping an eye on include things like: Widow Mine usage post nerf, Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran, overall effectiveness of Terran Bio, timings with the new Chrono Boost, Raven strength and the late game strength of Zerg." 5/6 of those watched things are major factors in PvT. The Oracle was just the tip of the iceberg. another thing to note about zvp is that the lurker is once again quite strong against protoss, the new burrow speed means that once a critical mass of lurkers is reached protoss has little ability to contest the ground and has to switch into air to deal with them. Right now they are only gaining in popularity but I predict that they will become a core part of the meta as zerg figure out how to reach lurkers safely, and what lurker hydra timings you can hit protoss with to punish an air switch. The hive requirement makes it difficult, but it does make lurkers absolutely insane. It's an upgrade that I expect will be fine right now, but completely broken maybe six months down the line. Slaughters bio too, not that any terrans are going bio.
Tanks murder Lurkers though and anytime Z goes Lurker, T will already have Tanks for the Hydras.
By Hive I would expect T to have Libs anyhow. I doubt Lurkers will be much of a problem for T.
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On November 29 2017 09:58 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2017 09:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 08:17 washikie wrote:On November 29 2017 05:19 pvsnp wrote:On November 29 2017 05:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 29 2017 04:27 pvsnp wrote:Patch was released today: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/21272911Though to be honest, the meta has already shifted significantly so I'm not altogether sure what kind of impact these changes will really have. The biggest shift in the meta has been on the Terran end, with mech largely replacing bio against Zerg and even Protoss. Of course, the Oracle and SB nerfs will help restore balance to TvP but I'm curious as to where that MU goes now–the Stalker and chrono buffs make for some devastating timings in the early game. Then again mech in TvP was always weird imo and maybe it was just a temporary coping strategy. The MU was heavily Protoss-favored before the changes, afterwards who knows? Balance team did say they were keeping an eye on Stalkers, Disruptors, and bio, so there's that. Likewise, mech has similarly taken over TvZ and while a cheaper Ghost is nice and all I doubt that alone will bring bio back when Zerg still has LBH. And while averting BL/Infestor is always a great idea, Infestors aren't used nearly as often against mech as they are against bio. Still expecting lots of Tanks and SH in this MU for the foreseeable future. If anything these changes might cause the biggest changes in PvZ, with Zerg once again facing its perennial Skytoss problem. On the whole it seems Protoss is in the best spot right now–Colossus deathballs and all. Is it just me or have the Protoss a-move memes started making a comeback? Just like old times. Mech TvP isn't a real thing (at least so far)-some people have been trying it out of desperation mostly, but nothing that has made mech unviable in the matchup all these years has changed. Also I think Zerg still has game against skytoss after the infestor nerfs--they're certainly better off than pre-4.0. Tbh I doubt Zerg will be in trouble even if Skytoss becomes a freewin like the whiners claim. Zerg still has the exact same LBH pushes that were a nightmare for Protoss until they figured out how to do mass Oracle shenanigans–and Oracles have been significantly nerfed since then. PvT is the most problematic matchup still, even the balance team knows it: "...areas that we are especially keeping an eye on include things like: Widow Mine usage post nerf, Stalker/Disruptor power vs Terran, overall effectiveness of Terran Bio, timings with the new Chrono Boost, Raven strength and the late game strength of Zerg." 5/6 of those watched things are major factors in PvT. The Oracle was just the tip of the iceberg. another thing to note about zvp is that the lurker is once again quite strong against protoss, the new burrow speed means that once a critical mass of lurkers is reached protoss has little ability to contest the ground and has to switch into air to deal with them. Right now they are only gaining in popularity but I predict that they will become a core part of the meta as zerg figure out how to reach lurkers safely, and what lurker hydra timings you can hit protoss with to punish an air switch. The hive requirement makes it difficult, but it does make lurkers absolutely insane. It's an upgrade that I expect will be fine right now, but completely broken maybe six months down the line. Slaughters bio too, not that any terrans are going bio. Tanks murder Lurkers though and anytime Z goes Lurker, T will already have Tanks for the Hydras. By Hive I would expect T to have Libs anyhow. I doubt Lurkers will be much of a problem for T.
Since bio isn't being played I don't have games to base things on, but with the upgrade lurkers burrow in a quarter of the time it takes to siege a tank and move almost as fast as stimmed bio (and faster than banelings). So they might very well have a place in the match-up if bio were viable. Better harassment than banelings, and maybe even better in big engagements.
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EPT
