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On November 23 2017 18:08 pvsnp wrote:
Anyone who says early PvT is balanced at the moment is either too blind to read the patch notes or too stupid to understand them. Or Protoss. Not that those are mutually exclusive.
Also, aligulac has the last two weeks of PvT at 58%.
Only 58%? The oracle change will drop that at least 3% then it will fall within the Blizzard acceptable imbalance margin. Well, the acceptable margin when Protoss is on the other side of the imbalance.
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On November 24 2017 01:19 Aegwynn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2017 01:14 OsaX Nymloth wrote:On November 23 2017 18:08 pvsnp wrote:
Anyone who says early PvT is balanced at the moment is either too blind to read the patch notes or too stupid to understand them. Or Protoss. Not that those are mutually exclusive.
Also, aligulac has the last two weeks of PvT at 58%. PvT is p favoured for two weeks. IMBALANCE PvT is terran favoured for MONTHS. Let protoss figure it out. One of the reason I absolutely hate terrans. We win? Good. We don't win 70% of the games? OP NERF PLS. What do you mean, we have to ADAPT? IMBA! ~~ Well to be fair, pvt was never this much imbalanced.
PvT was at 42% for something like a month and a half at the beginning of the year.
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To state that the game was imbalanced in favor of one race and now it is fair that it is imbalanced in favor of the other race is just not valid and should not be discussed here imho !
The game has to reach an almost balanced state fast to enable each player of the same level to get the prize money they need as a progamer.
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On November 24 2017 05:52 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
To state that the game was imbalanced in favor of one race and now it is fair that it is imbalanced in favor of the other race is just not valid and should not be discussed here imho !
The game has to reach an almost balanced state fast to enable each player of the same level to get the prize money they need as a progamer.
That is true, but only insofar as the opposite is also true. That is, when another race is facing imbalance, changes should be made equally as fast. And with Protoss and Terran....sometimes changes have been quick, and sometimes they're slow.
Also, it is noteworthy that sometimes metas shift and balances change without any Blizzard patching needed. For instance, take mine drops in mid-2014 against Protoss. They were overpowered, but by 2015, early widow mine builds were easily countered.
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For design patches we like to lean on the side of making things powerful so that players can really feel the changes and then pull back from there. However, it seems the Infestor is currently further in this direction than we would like. We believe that Fungal Growth is the prime reason for its strength and we want to increase counterattack options to the currently stealthy Infestors first before heavily nerfing its direct power. So we are going to reduce the Fungal Growth area of effect slightly and remove the ability to cast Fungal Growth while burrowed. In line with this we are also planning on reducing Infested Terran cast range by 2. It can still be cast while burrowed, but now there should be more trade off in how far forward you want to move your Infestors with the initial cast and how much you want to let the Infested Terrans walk towards their targets.
Infestor
- Fungal Growth Area of Effect reduced from 2.5 to 2.25.
- Fungal Growth can no longer be cast while burrowed.
- Infested Terran cast range reduced from 9 to 7.
This seems rather dubious to me. My reaction to the initial proposal was that casting fungal growth while burrowed would be obviously stupid and broken, because you would have invisible units that without warning can trap (or kill) an entire army. It is not like dark templar which you can easily run away from. It might be possible to balance it by adjusting the cost of the infestor and the power of fungal growth, but that would take away from the unit and lock them into a one-dimensional role. Alternatively, it could force tedious gameplay where players are forced to invest in detection.
So the correct decision here was not to experiment with a change that fundamentally threatens the role of a unit, but to not make that change to begin with. If you're balancing a game you should concern yourself not just with relative power of units, but also with the structure of the game that allows you to make adjustments without destabilization. Invisible units that can instantly destroy your army are not needed in the game as an experiment, anymore than siege tanks being able to fly are needed in the game as an experiment. And then you could actually have had a better understanding of whether these other two changes were even needed.
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On November 24 2017 05:45 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2017 01:19 Aegwynn wrote:On November 24 2017 01:14 OsaX Nymloth wrote:On November 23 2017 18:08 pvsnp wrote:
Anyone who says early PvT is balanced at the moment is either too blind to read the patch notes or too stupid to understand them. Or Protoss. Not that those are mutually exclusive.
Also, aligulac has the last two weeks of PvT at 58%. PvT is p favoured for two weeks. IMBALANCE PvT is terran favoured for MONTHS. Let protoss figure it out. One of the reason I absolutely hate terrans. We win? Good. We don't win 70% of the games? OP NERF PLS. What do you mean, we have to ADAPT? IMBA! ~~ Well to be fair, pvt was never this much imbalanced. PvT was at 42% for something like a month and a half at the beginning of the year.
Didn't they nerf liberators and WM because of that?
Also they pretty much said the current WM nerf is mostly because of WM drops in PvT.
People talk like Blizzard has never patched something in favor of protoss.
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On November 24 2017 08:15 Grumbels wrote:
This seems rather dubious to me. My reaction to the initial proposal was that casting fungal growth while burrowed would be obviously stupid and broken, because you would have invisible units that without warning can trap (or kill) an entire army. It is not like dark templar which you can easily run away from. It might be possible to balance it by adjusting the cost of the infestor and the power of fungal growth, but that would take away from the unit and lock them into a one-dimensional role. Alternatively, it could force tedious gameplay where players are forced to invest in detection.
They already nerf infestors fungal growth by making it slow units instead of holding the units in place. The idea that this leads to tedious gameplay can be apply to dts as well.
The problem with making infestors to fungal when unborrow is that they are easy target and died by tank fires or templar's feedback before they can do anything in the battle.
I personally like it how they make the game very interesting because it can set up traps and surprises if the opponent have no detections.
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On November 24 2017 08:15 Grumbels wrote:
So the correct decision here was not to experiment with a change that fundamentally threatens the role of a unit, but to not make that change to begin with.
you're getting really nit-picky when you disagree about what warrants experimentation. part of experimentation includes the possibility it can go horribly wrong and get scrapped.
orginally, the experiment of creating asymmetric RTS factions was rejected because it is impossible to balance. that experiment could've easily went up in flames with forum know-it-alls screaming "told ya so". this ambitious experiment turned out to be very difficult, but worth the effort.
i like that Blizzard is willing to take chances... part of that includes colossal screw-ups. you can't have 1 without the other.
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On November 24 2017 02:21 LDLCmiyako wrote:to be fair aligulac isn't very reliable. If you look at results http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments protoss has been heavily favored on 2015 hots, and slightly favored since lotv. I'm not sure what basis aligulac uses but it's hard to define if it's normal for one player to beat another.
From the aligulac FAQ:
How do you decide which games to add?
This question doesn't have an easy answer. We mostly decide this on a case-by-case basis. Generally we will add a round from a tournament if that round contains a significant number of already rated players.
[...]
If a tournament isn't in the database, it could either be because we felt it didn't cut it, or it could just be we have missed it or forgotten.
Their basis is everything but an objective view on SC2, not even the pro gaming scene as such. The entire goal of the site is to make predictions on how individual matches between two recorded players will turn out. Overall win/loss-rates between races is so far out of their scope it is already ludicrous to even assume their data is suited for that kind of analysis.
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On November 24 2017 02:21 LDLCmiyako wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2017 01:39 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 24 2017 01:19 Aegwynn wrote:On November 24 2017 01:14 OsaX Nymloth wrote:On November 23 2017 18:08 pvsnp wrote:
Anyone who says early PvT is balanced at the moment is either too blind to read the patch notes or too stupid to understand them. Or Protoss. Not that those are mutually exclusive.
Also, aligulac has the last two weeks of PvT at 58%. PvT is p favoured for two weeks. IMBALANCE PvT is terran favoured for MONTHS. Let protoss figure it out. One of the reason I absolutely hate terrans. We win? Good. We don't win 70% of the games? OP NERF PLS. What do you mean, we have to ADAPT? IMBA! ~~ Well to be fair, pvt was never this much imbalanced. Actually...it has, and if you look on aligulac, you'll see that PvT has generally been T favoured since the beginning of WoL.There have been stretches where Protoss was favoured, but it's generally been T favoured, and also the peak of T or P being stronger has the T having larger and longer peaks of being favoured. to be fair aligulac isn't very reliable. If you look at results http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments protoss has been heavily favored on 2015 hots, and slightly favored since lotv. I'm not sure what basis aligulac uses but it's hard to define if it's normal for one player to beat another.
any person who says tournament wins are a reliable source of balance information is just plain, 100% wrong.
that's like say protoss is OP all of 2017 because neeb was twice as good as all wcs players while other protoss wcs players can't make top 8s in 2017. Or saying soo isn't very skilled because he isn't winning finals.
alligulac is the closest thing we got to a large sample set, and only blizzard has the ladder winrates I believe.
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On November 25 2017 02:15 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2017 02:21 LDLCmiyako wrote:On November 24 2017 01:39 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 24 2017 01:19 Aegwynn wrote:On November 24 2017 01:14 OsaX Nymloth wrote:On November 23 2017 18:08 pvsnp wrote:
Anyone who says early PvT is balanced at the moment is either too blind to read the patch notes or too stupid to understand them. Or Protoss. Not that those are mutually exclusive.
Also, aligulac has the last two weeks of PvT at 58%. PvT is p favoured for two weeks. IMBALANCE PvT is terran favoured for MONTHS. Let protoss figure it out. One of the reason I absolutely hate terrans. We win? Good. We don't win 70% of the games? OP NERF PLS. What do you mean, we have to ADAPT? IMBA! ~~ Well to be fair, pvt was never this much imbalanced. Actually...it has, and if you look on aligulac, you'll see that PvT has generally been T favoured since the beginning of WoL.There have been stretches where Protoss was favoured, but it's generally been T favoured, and also the peak of T or P being stronger has the T having larger and longer peaks of being favoured. to be fair aligulac isn't very reliable. If you look at results http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments protoss has been heavily favored on 2015 hots, and slightly favored since lotv. I'm not sure what basis aligulac uses but it's hard to define if it's normal for one player to beat another. any person who says tournament wins are a reliable source of balance information is just plain, 100% wrong. that's like say protoss is OP all of 2017 because neeb was twice as good as all wcs players while other protoss wcs players can't make top 8s in 2017. Or saying soo isn't very skilled because he isn't winning finals. alligulac is the closest thing we got to a large sample set, and only blizzard has the ladder winrates I believe.
Winning a tournament means your race is able to compete at the best level, so losing as protoss is "your fault" :
Neeb can win, he plays protoss so if you lose, that's your fault, so "stop blaming balance."
A balance issue is when you can't simply beat one race/one strategy no matter of how skill you are, and as a result no pro manage to beat it.
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On November 25 2017 03:11 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 02:15 youngjiddle wrote:On November 24 2017 02:21 LDLCmiyako wrote:On November 24 2017 01:39 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 24 2017 01:19 Aegwynn wrote:On November 24 2017 01:14 OsaX Nymloth wrote:On November 23 2017 18:08 pvsnp wrote:
Anyone who says early PvT is balanced at the moment is either too blind to read the patch notes or too stupid to understand them. Or Protoss. Not that those are mutually exclusive.
Also, aligulac has the last two weeks of PvT at 58%. PvT is p favoured for two weeks. IMBALANCE PvT is terran favoured for MONTHS. Let protoss figure it out. One of the reason I absolutely hate terrans. We win? Good. We don't win 70% of the games? OP NERF PLS. What do you mean, we have to ADAPT? IMBA! ~~ Well to be fair, pvt was never this much imbalanced. Actually...it has, and if you look on aligulac, you'll see that PvT has generally been T favoured since the beginning of WoL.There have been stretches where Protoss was favoured, but it's generally been T favoured, and also the peak of T or P being stronger has the T having larger and longer peaks of being favoured. to be fair aligulac isn't very reliable. If you look at results http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments protoss has been heavily favored on 2015 hots, and slightly favored since lotv. I'm not sure what basis aligulac uses but it's hard to define if it's normal for one player to beat another. any person who says tournament wins are a reliable source of balance information is just plain, 100% wrong. that's like say protoss is OP all of 2017 because neeb was twice as good as all wcs players while other protoss wcs players can't make top 8s in 2017. Or saying soo isn't very skilled because he isn't winning finals. alligulac is the closest thing we got to a large sample set, and only blizzard has the ladder winrates I believe. Winning a tournament means your race is able to compete at the best level, so losing as protoss is "your fault" : Neeb can win, he plays protoss so if you lose, that's your fault, so "stop blaming balance." A balance issue is when you can't simply beat one race/one strategy no matter of how skill you are, and as a result no pro manage to beat it.
Rogue won Blizzcon, Zerg got huge buffs to late game, and Scarlett STILL complains about late game ZvP.
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On November 25 2017 05:50 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 03:11 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 25 2017 02:15 youngjiddle wrote:On November 24 2017 02:21 LDLCmiyako wrote:On November 24 2017 01:39 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 24 2017 01:19 Aegwynn wrote:On November 24 2017 01:14 OsaX Nymloth wrote:On November 23 2017 18:08 pvsnp wrote:
Anyone who says early PvT is balanced at the moment is either too blind to read the patch notes or too stupid to understand them. Or Protoss. Not that those are mutually exclusive.
Also, aligulac has the last two weeks of PvT at 58%. PvT is p favoured for two weeks. IMBALANCE PvT is terran favoured for MONTHS. Let protoss figure it out. One of the reason I absolutely hate terrans. We win? Good. We don't win 70% of the games? OP NERF PLS. What do you mean, we have to ADAPT? IMBA! ~~ Well to be fair, pvt was never this much imbalanced. Actually...it has, and if you look on aligulac, you'll see that PvT has generally been T favoured since the beginning of WoL.There have been stretches where Protoss was favoured, but it's generally been T favoured, and also the peak of T or P being stronger has the T having larger and longer peaks of being favoured. to be fair aligulac isn't very reliable. If you look at results http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments protoss has been heavily favored on 2015 hots, and slightly favored since lotv. I'm not sure what basis aligulac uses but it's hard to define if it's normal for one player to beat another. any person who says tournament wins are a reliable source of balance information is just plain, 100% wrong. that's like say protoss is OP all of 2017 because neeb was twice as good as all wcs players while other protoss wcs players can't make top 8s in 2017. Or saying soo isn't very skilled because he isn't winning finals. alligulac is the closest thing we got to a large sample set, and only blizzard has the ladder winrates I believe. Winning a tournament means your race is able to compete at the best level, so losing as protoss is "your fault" : Neeb can win, he plays protoss so if you lose, that's your fault, so "stop blaming balance." A balance issue is when you can't simply beat one race/one strategy no matter of how skill you are, and as a result no pro manage to beat it. Rogue won Blizzcon, Zerg got huge buffs to late game, and Scarlett STILL complains about late game ZvP.
imo lategame ZvP does suck, but thats part of the balance since zerg has a really good early mid game where they have strong timings to hit against Protoss. Unfortunately, Zerg loses their advantage in a lategame deathball fight because they aren't designed to fight upfront, they use circulation to replace units lost in trades faster and snowball it out of control. While it is possible to take good trades against deathball Toss, it is definitely harder than midgame Toss. I like that different races have different timing windows for different matchups as well- keeps things very interesting.
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On November 25 2017 05:50 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 03:11 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 25 2017 02:15 youngjiddle wrote:On November 24 2017 02:21 LDLCmiyako wrote:On November 24 2017 01:39 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 24 2017 01:19 Aegwynn wrote:On November 24 2017 01:14 OsaX Nymloth wrote:On November 23 2017 18:08 pvsnp wrote:
Anyone who says early PvT is balanced at the moment is either too blind to read the patch notes or too stupid to understand them. Or Protoss. Not that those are mutually exclusive.
Also, aligulac has the last two weeks of PvT at 58%. PvT is p favoured for two weeks. IMBALANCE PvT is terran favoured for MONTHS. Let protoss figure it out. One of the reason I absolutely hate terrans. We win? Good. We don't win 70% of the games? OP NERF PLS. What do you mean, we have to ADAPT? IMBA! ~~ Well to be fair, pvt was never this much imbalanced. Actually...it has, and if you look on aligulac, you'll see that PvT has generally been T favoured since the beginning of WoL.There have been stretches where Protoss was favoured, but it's generally been T favoured, and also the peak of T or P being stronger has the T having larger and longer peaks of being favoured. to be fair aligulac isn't very reliable. If you look at results http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments protoss has been heavily favored on 2015 hots, and slightly favored since lotv. I'm not sure what basis aligulac uses but it's hard to define if it's normal for one player to beat another. any person who says tournament wins are a reliable source of balance information is just plain, 100% wrong. that's like say protoss is OP all of 2017 because neeb was twice as good as all wcs players while other protoss wcs players can't make top 8s in 2017. Or saying soo isn't very skilled because he isn't winning finals. alligulac is the closest thing we got to a large sample set, and only blizzard has the ladder winrates I believe. Winning a tournament means your race is able to compete at the best level, so losing as protoss is "your fault" : Neeb can win, he plays protoss so if you lose, that's your fault, so "stop blaming balance." A balance issue is when you can't simply beat one race/one strategy no matter of how skill you are, and as a result no pro manage to beat it. Rogue won Blizzcon, Zerg got huge buffs to late game, and Scarlett STILL complains about late game ZvP.
Pros balance whine like everyone else. If anything, they have more incentive to whine because the strength of their race directly affects how much money they make.
That being said, pros do have a far better understanding of the game (by virtue of being pros) and if they so choose, are perfectly capable of giving accurate assessments of balance. But whether they want to be accurate or just whine is obviously their own choice.
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On November 24 2017 19:23 QuinnTheEskimo wrote:From the aligulac FAQ: Show nested quote +
How do you decide which games to add?
This question doesn't have an easy answer. We mostly decide this on a case-by-case basis. Generally we will add a round from a tournament if that round contains a significant number of already rated players.
[...]
If a tournament isn't in the database, it could either be because we felt it didn't cut it, or it could just be we have missed it or forgotten.
Their basis is everything but an objective view on SC2, not even the pro gaming scene as such. The entire goal of the site is to make predictions on how individual matches between two recorded players will turn out. Overall win/loss-rates between races is so far out of their scope it is already ludicrous to even assume their data is suited for that kind of analysis.
That's what i though, also that means it leans toward prediction, so if for exemple i won as a terran 10x against a protoss opponent because i'm better, but suddently after a patch he starts to win, the graph will show a spike of imbalance favoring protoss right? But the more he wins the more the graph will balance toward the middle, so correct me if i'm wrong, but if he wins 10x right after the patch, the first few win will show a huge imbalance, but after 10 games it will show a balanced matchup right? Which in itself won't tell if the match up is balanced, but will tell that with an equal w/l record we should have equal chance to win ( = it's balanced ). Unless it takes in consideration that one player is better than the other, but then i dont get how they define that one is better than the other especially when the 2 players aren't that far in ranking.
To me it's not reliable at all, and i get a bit tired of protoss claiming that their race has been weak for months now... There's no reliable data of it, and there's no terran or zerg domination in tournament. Only thing is there was way less protoss in ladder, which was to me mostly due to the changes in term of gameplay and the nerf of gimmicky stuff.
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On November 25 2017 11:12 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 05:50 Boggyb wrote:On November 25 2017 03:11 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 25 2017 02:15 youngjiddle wrote:On November 24 2017 02:21 LDLCmiyako wrote:On November 24 2017 01:39 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 24 2017 01:19 Aegwynn wrote:On November 24 2017 01:14 OsaX Nymloth wrote:On November 23 2017 18:08 pvsnp wrote:
Anyone who says early PvT is balanced at the moment is either too blind to read the patch notes or too stupid to understand them. Or Protoss. Not that those are mutually exclusive.
Also, aligulac has the last two weeks of PvT at 58%. PvT is p favoured for two weeks. IMBALANCE PvT is terran favoured for MONTHS. Let protoss figure it out. One of the reason I absolutely hate terrans. We win? Good. We don't win 70% of the games? OP NERF PLS. What do you mean, we have to ADAPT? IMBA! ~~ Well to be fair, pvt was never this much imbalanced. Actually...it has, and if you look on aligulac, you'll see that PvT has generally been T favoured since the beginning of WoL.There have been stretches where Protoss was favoured, but it's generally been T favoured, and also the peak of T or P being stronger has the T having larger and longer peaks of being favoured. to be fair aligulac isn't very reliable. If you look at results http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments protoss has been heavily favored on 2015 hots, and slightly favored since lotv. I'm not sure what basis aligulac uses but it's hard to define if it's normal for one player to beat another. any person who says tournament wins are a reliable source of balance information is just plain, 100% wrong. that's like say protoss is OP all of 2017 because neeb was twice as good as all wcs players while other protoss wcs players can't make top 8s in 2017. Or saying soo isn't very skilled because he isn't winning finals. alligulac is the closest thing we got to a large sample set, and only blizzard has the ladder winrates I believe. Winning a tournament means your race is able to compete at the best level, so losing as protoss is "your fault" : Neeb can win, he plays protoss so if you lose, that's your fault, so "stop blaming balance." A balance issue is when you can't simply beat one race/one strategy no matter of how skill you are, and as a result no pro manage to beat it. Rogue won Blizzcon, Zerg got huge buffs to late game, and Scarlett STILL complains about late game ZvP. Pros balance whine like everyone else. If anything, they have more incentive to whine because the strength of their race directly affects how much money they make. That being said, pros do have a far better understanding of the game (by virtue of being pros) and if they so choose, are perfectly capable of giving accurate assessments of balance. But whether they want to be accurate or just whine is obviously their own choice.
I disagree with that. While pros do understand the game much better than anyone else, they also view it through lenses biased by both the race they play, and by their personal experience (which may or may not be representative of the experiences of everyone else at the highest level). So I'd say it's completely possible for pros to sincerely believe in a state of balance that isn't true.
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On November 25 2017 13:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 11:12 pvsnp wrote:On November 25 2017 05:50 Boggyb wrote:On November 25 2017 03:11 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 25 2017 02:15 youngjiddle wrote:On November 24 2017 02:21 LDLCmiyako wrote:On November 24 2017 01:39 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 24 2017 01:19 Aegwynn wrote:On November 24 2017 01:14 OsaX Nymloth wrote:On November 23 2017 18:08 pvsnp wrote:
Anyone who says early PvT is balanced at the moment is either too blind to read the patch notes or too stupid to understand them. Or Protoss. Not that those are mutually exclusive.
Also, aligulac has the last two weeks of PvT at 58%. PvT is p favoured for two weeks. IMBALANCE PvT is terran favoured for MONTHS. Let protoss figure it out. One of the reason I absolutely hate terrans. We win? Good. We don't win 70% of the games? OP NERF PLS. What do you mean, we have to ADAPT? IMBA! ~~ Well to be fair, pvt was never this much imbalanced. Actually...it has, and if you look on aligulac, you'll see that PvT has generally been T favoured since the beginning of WoL.There have been stretches where Protoss was favoured, but it's generally been T favoured, and also the peak of T or P being stronger has the T having larger and longer peaks of being favoured. to be fair aligulac isn't very reliable. If you look at results http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments protoss has been heavily favored on 2015 hots, and slightly favored since lotv. I'm not sure what basis aligulac uses but it's hard to define if it's normal for one player to beat another. any person who says tournament wins are a reliable source of balance information is just plain, 100% wrong. that's like say protoss is OP all of 2017 because neeb was twice as good as all wcs players while other protoss wcs players can't make top 8s in 2017. Or saying soo isn't very skilled because he isn't winning finals. alligulac is the closest thing we got to a large sample set, and only blizzard has the ladder winrates I believe. Winning a tournament means your race is able to compete at the best level, so losing as protoss is "your fault" : Neeb can win, he plays protoss so if you lose, that's your fault, so "stop blaming balance." A balance issue is when you can't simply beat one race/one strategy no matter of how skill you are, and as a result no pro manage to beat it. Rogue won Blizzcon, Zerg got huge buffs to late game, and Scarlett STILL complains about late game ZvP. Pros balance whine like everyone else. If anything, they have more incentive to whine because the strength of their race directly affects how much money they make. That being said, pros do have a far better understanding of the game (by virtue of being pros) and if they so choose, are perfectly capable of giving accurate assessments of balance. But whether they want to be accurate or just whine is obviously their own choice. I disagree with that. While pros do understand the game much better than anyone else, they also view it through lenses biased by both the race they play, and by their personal experience (which may or may not be representative of the experiences of everyone else at the highest level). So I'd say it's completely possible for pros to sincerely believe in a state of balance that isn't true.
It's certainly possible for a pro to be biased, I would just think it is far easier/more common for a lesser player to be biased. Nobody is perfect, and pros are the best we can get.
Same story with any expert in any field. No, they are not omniscient. Yes, they do know better than nearly everyone else. Certainly better than laymen.
Whether the pros choose to be honest or to whine is another story entirely.
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On November 25 2017 03:11 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 02:15 youngjiddle wrote:On November 24 2017 02:21 LDLCmiyako wrote:On November 24 2017 01:39 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 24 2017 01:19 Aegwynn wrote:On November 24 2017 01:14 OsaX Nymloth wrote:On November 23 2017 18:08 pvsnp wrote:
Anyone who says early PvT is balanced at the moment is either too blind to read the patch notes or too stupid to understand them. Or Protoss. Not that those are mutually exclusive.
Also, aligulac has the last two weeks of PvT at 58%. PvT is p favoured for two weeks. IMBALANCE PvT is terran favoured for MONTHS. Let protoss figure it out. One of the reason I absolutely hate terrans. We win? Good. We don't win 70% of the games? OP NERF PLS. What do you mean, we have to ADAPT? IMBA! ~~ Well to be fair, pvt was never this much imbalanced. Actually...it has, and if you look on aligulac, you'll see that PvT has generally been T favoured since the beginning of WoL.There have been stretches where Protoss was favoured, but it's generally been T favoured, and also the peak of T or P being stronger has the T having larger and longer peaks of being favoured. to be fair aligulac isn't very reliable. If you look at results http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments protoss has been heavily favored on 2015 hots, and slightly favored since lotv. I'm not sure what basis aligulac uses but it's hard to define if it's normal for one player to beat another. any person who says tournament wins are a reliable source of balance information is just plain, 100% wrong. that's like say protoss is OP all of 2017 because neeb was twice as good as all wcs players while other protoss wcs players can't make top 8s in 2017. Or saying soo isn't very skilled because he isn't winning finals. alligulac is the closest thing we got to a large sample set, and only blizzard has the ladder winrates I believe. Winning a tournament means your race is able to compete at the best level, so losing as protoss is "your fault" : Neeb can win, he plays protoss so if you lose, that's your fault, so "stop blaming balance." A balance issue is when you can't simply beat one race/one strategy no matter of how skill you are, and as a result no pro manage to beat it.
sure, this is the point I was trying to make when I said I can't stand someone saying
>If you look at results http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments protoss has been heavily favored on 2015 hots, and slightly favored since lotv.
just because stats, herO, and neeb murdered nerds in sc2 doesn't prove any inbalance.
It was worse when zergs would whine
>hurr durr it's been 8 months without a zerg first place,
meanwhile every wcs finals was NeebvZ and multiple gsl finals were TvZ ect.
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The thing is i'm not saying it prove any balance or imbalance, but it look way more reliable than aligulac.
The exemple of one or two player winning most of tournament works for every races.
Although i disagree about what the other guy said, i mean, it's your fault, if you lose, but that doesn't mean it's balanced. Balance isn't 1 guy is able to play 10x better than the other, to do even results and that work for any race. It's impossible to accuratly quantify how better a player is playing from another, but when there's a huge gap in mecanics and game knownledge, you can notice it.
I really dont get how protoss was "weak" before the patch, espacially in pvt, and now it feels actually insane.
About the patch coming, i dont get the mech buff, it seems already very strong vs zerg and terran. I appreciate the ghost buff, but i think it wont fix the issue of early and mid game bio play. I think it will help a lot in tvz late game, but it will unfortunatly not help in tvp.
In general I feel that the sc2 dev team is forgetting too much about some very basics of the game. I think macro should have a bigger impact on the game and be less affected by game changer unit and in my opinion the game should have better defined strong and weak timing for each race like it used to.
I dont feel any of the change are going toward this, and to me fixing the gameplay should be more important than fixing the balance
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On November 25 2017 13:52 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 13:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On November 25 2017 11:12 pvsnp wrote:On November 25 2017 05:50 Boggyb wrote:On November 25 2017 03:11 Tyrhanius wrote:On November 25 2017 02:15 youngjiddle wrote:On November 24 2017 02:21 LDLCmiyako wrote:On November 24 2017 01:39 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 24 2017 01:19 Aegwynn wrote:On November 24 2017 01:14 OsaX Nymloth wrote:
[quote]
PvT is p favoured for two weeks. IMBALANCE
PvT is terran favoured for MONTHS. Let protoss figure it out.
One of the reason I absolutely hate terrans. We win? Good. We don't win 70% of the games? OP NERF PLS. What do you mean, we have to ADAPT? IMBA!
~~ Well to be fair, pvt was never this much imbalanced. Actually...it has, and if you look on aligulac, you'll see that PvT has generally been T favoured since the beginning of WoL.There have been stretches where Protoss was favoured, but it's generally been T favoured, and also the peak of T or P being stronger has the T having larger and longer peaks of being favoured. to be fair aligulac isn't very reliable. If you look at results http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments protoss has been heavily favored on 2015 hots, and slightly favored since lotv. I'm not sure what basis aligulac uses but it's hard to define if it's normal for one player to beat another. any person who says tournament wins are a reliable source of balance information is just plain, 100% wrong. that's like say protoss is OP all of 2017 because neeb was twice as good as all wcs players while other protoss wcs players can't make top 8s in 2017. Or saying soo isn't very skilled because he isn't winning finals. alligulac is the closest thing we got to a large sample set, and only blizzard has the ladder winrates I believe. Winning a tournament means your race is able to compete at the best level, so losing as protoss is "your fault" : Neeb can win, he plays protoss so if you lose, that's your fault, so "stop blaming balance." A balance issue is when you can't simply beat one race/one strategy no matter of how skill you are, and as a result no pro manage to beat it. Rogue won Blizzcon, Zerg got huge buffs to late game, and Scarlett STILL complains about late game ZvP. Pros balance whine like everyone else. If anything, they have more incentive to whine because the strength of their race directly affects how much money they make. That being said, pros do have a far better understanding of the game (by virtue of being pros) and if they so choose, are perfectly capable of giving accurate assessments of balance. But whether they want to be accurate or just whine is obviously their own choice. I disagree with that. While pros do understand the game much better than anyone else, they also view it through lenses biased by both the race they play, and by their personal experience (which may or may not be representative of the experiences of everyone else at the highest level). So I'd say it's completely possible for pros to sincerely believe in a state of balance that isn't true. It's certainly possible for a pro to be biased, I would just think it is far easier/more common for a lesser player to be biased. Nobody is perfect, and pros are the best we can get. Same story with any expert in any field. No, they are not omniscient. Yes, they do know better than nearly everyone else. Certainly better than laymen. Whether the pros choose to be honest or to whine is another story entirely.
They're experts at playing the game, not experts at evaluating balance objectively.
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