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On November 21 2017 03:40 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The siege mode gives on of the last "positional play" we have at SC2. It must be a troll.
Liberators are true positional play. Siege tanks with their nonsensical ability to fire in every direction without needing to readjust isn't really positional play. They should make it so siege tanks have the same sort of siege zone as liberators and instill true positional play and reward counter positioning.
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Shield batteries are gonna be great lategame. Neeb is playing PvP lategame with 50 batteries...
Edit: There could be situations where protoss can not be attacked and the will be in a stalemate.
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On November 20 2017 04:50 FanaticCZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2017 01:55 xTJx wrote:
SH is bad design? Tell me about sitting in your base with siege tanks and turrets, being unattackable while trading mineral only units for workers the whole game.
And what's good design? Zerg having to bet everything on vipers to counter siege tanks? Or maybe some late game units that are all hard countered by ghosts? Please. Way to make it a balance shitstorm. Siege tanks and turrets have been in the game since brood war and are the same design principle as any other unit. You spend resources to make it and it does damage. Swarm host on the other is bought for some initial cost and then keeps making new units that do damage for free for the whole game whereas if you lose a siege tank, you have to make a new one. The fact that there would have to be a different unit to make up for the hole after swarm hosts to counter turtle styles has been stated already. It is a bad design. You lose resources if you lose any other unit. Not with locusts.
I totally agree with that.
When zerg makes infestors with infested terran and swarm hosts he can kill A LOT of units basically for free.
So why swarm hosts would not pay minerals for locusts as carriers for interceptors ?
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because if locusts costed money they would not be close to viable you fucking idiot.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 21 2017 06:37 bObA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2017 04:50 FanaticCZ wrote:On November 20 2017 01:55 xTJx wrote:
SH is bad design? Tell me about sitting in your base with siege tanks and turrets, being unattackable while trading mineral only units for workers the whole game.
And what's good design? Zerg having to bet everything on vipers to counter siege tanks? Or maybe some late game units that are all hard countered by ghosts? Please. Way to make it a balance shitstorm. Siege tanks and turrets have been in the game since brood war and are the same design principle as any other unit. You spend resources to make it and it does damage. Swarm host on the other is bought for some initial cost and then keeps making new units that do damage for free for the whole game whereas if you lose a siege tank, you have to make a new one. The fact that there would have to be a different unit to make up for the hole after swarm hosts to counter turtle styles has been stated already. It is a bad design. You lose resources if you lose any other unit. Not with locusts. I totally agree with that. When zerg makes infestors with infested terran and swarm hosts he can kill A LOT of units basically for free. So why swarm hosts would not pay minerals for locusts as carriers for interceptors ?
Locusts are on timer, interceptors are permanent. Can't even believe i am actually reminding this...
Also, when marines bullets gonna cost minerals? They basically shoot for free all game long and it is really annoying.
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Sure it units but they designed to autodie quite fast because it really just a shot/attack.
It has some nice benifits but it also comes with the downside that they can be killed.
Also it all they got, they don't have a normal attack and the attack don't reach the target instantly.
Sure, you could make locust cost minerals and just increase the speed of making them, make it into a groundwalking zerg-carrier 
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On November 21 2017 08:02 Aegwynn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2017 06:37 bObA wrote:On November 20 2017 04:50 FanaticCZ wrote:On November 20 2017 01:55 xTJx wrote:
SH is bad design? Tell me about sitting in your base with siege tanks and turrets, being unattackable while trading mineral only units for workers the whole game.
And what's good design? Zerg having to bet everything on vipers to counter siege tanks? Or maybe some late game units that are all hard countered by ghosts? Please. Way to make it a balance shitstorm. Siege tanks and turrets have been in the game since brood war and are the same design principle as any other unit. You spend resources to make it and it does damage. Swarm host on the other is bought for some initial cost and then keeps making new units that do damage for free for the whole game whereas if you lose a siege tank, you have to make a new one. The fact that there would have to be a different unit to make up for the hole after swarm hosts to counter turtle styles has been stated already. It is a bad design. You lose resources if you lose any other unit. Not with locusts. I totally agree with that. When zerg makes infestors with infested terran and swarm hosts he can kill A LOT of units basically for free. So why swarm hosts would not pay minerals for locusts as carriers for interceptors ? Locusts are on timer, interceptors are permanent. Can't even believe i am actually reminding this... Also, when marines bullets gonna cost minerals? They basically shoot for free all game long and it is really annoying.
Scarabs are on a timer yet require minerals tbf, so while it's a pretty awful idea when it comes to swarm hosts it isn't generally unthinkable.
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On November 19 2017 11:03 BigRedDog wrote:
Someone posted that the problem for removing borrow fungal is that infestors will be targeted before they even engage in battle (tanks and templar's feedback).
This did not stop zerg from using them in the past before they got burrow cast.
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One is a small health small attack bug, the other a unkillable blastshot that would be like a fast disrubtor-attack now tho.
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I saw in my dream today morning cheaper marauder, factory and starport.
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First off I'm just gonna come out and say it, the mineral changes alone have made the game feel like it goes at a much better pace. Being able to actually breathe a bit on 3 bases for a second feels good, like really good.
Second, all of these changes are in the right direction although I do feel the Infestor is getting hit surprisingly hard with the nerf bat. Removing the burrow fungal is fine because even as a Zerg player I consider it pretty dumb, but they were given that ability for a reason, and that's because they get wrecked by pretty much anything, are armored so they take bonus damage from alot of stuff, and the unit model is huge and easy to target.
Adding that Fungal was already nerfed when they changed it from a root to a slow (justifiably but it's still a nerf) So I feel like removal of burrowed Fungal is more then sufficient, the other nerfs are just really heavy handed, especially the range, so now, to sum it all up for the good old Infestor..
Fungal no longer roots, has an even smaller radius, cannot be cast while burrowed, and is having it's range drastically reduced from 9 to 7? Call me crazy but thoat just seems like nerf after nerf after nerf, god forbid the unit actually be useful or anything like High Templars which are a staple caster in pretty much every match up for Protoss. They actually got buffed to be easier to handle while the Infestor get's shafted because why exactly? Were they like breaking the meta or something?
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On November 21 2017 08:06 GothGirlGames wrote:Sure it units but they designed to autodie quite fast because it really just a shot/attack. It has some nice benifits but it also comes with the downside that they can be killed. Also it all they got, they don't have a normal attack and the attack don't reach the target instantly. Sure, you could make locust cost minerals and just increase the speed of making them, make it into a groundwalking zerg-carrier
That what I meat.
Because timer and free seems to be unbalanced, maybe they could try no timer and mineral cost and see what happen.
But they still have to autodie or that will be way more imba lol
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I wouldn't mind making fungal root again. Without burrow it's not nearly as punishing.
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On November 21 2017 17:18 Charoisaur wrote:
I wouldn't mind making fungal root again. Without burrow it's not nearly as punishing.
The reason they changed it from 'root' to 'very slow' is to mitigate chain fungal-ing though, and this doesn't change design-wise even if the infestor can't burrow cast anymore. If they have to buff the infestor I'd rather have a different buff than returning to root.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
The simple problem of SH is that those free units have huge DPS and can fly. In a straight up fight they will lose but they are not exactly slow, they can use the tunnel and they have flying units. This gives players frustration more than "SH is OP" - especially if the terrain favors this usage.
There's not a good way to balance SH IMO. The best way would be to remove them and replace them. While Oracle can be tuned around its attack(and in the end they can put the attack on some upgrade meaning an Oracle comes from SG without attack ability) as at this time this is the big problem.
But I am no designer of SC2 units so what do I know. All I know is that "free units" are getting me pissed from WoL and "can't attack me through the waves of broodlings" 
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It's crazy to me how blizzard seems to want to have mech work in TvP (buffing the upgrade costs of tech lab upgrades) when it's so blatantly obvious that the mine nerf, the raven nerf and the stalker buff make it pretty much terrible.
Also increase shield battery cost won't change the fact that shield battery + photon canon combo get extremely cancerous late game. I'd suggest to have the shield battery auto casting on units only to have protoss manually micro-manage the batteries on canons to avoid spamming 10 batteries behind 10 canons.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On November 21 2017 20:59 engesser1 wrote:watch this shit, Inno vs alpha full protoss.
Next time he will be sure to see his whole base I guess
C'mon, it's a learning phase of the game. In HotS such players lost to 2gate zealot rush in PvZ.
On November 21 2017 21:57 JackONeill wrote:
It's crazy to me how blizzard seems to want to have mech work in TvP (buffing the upgrade costs of tech lab upgrades) when it's so blatantly obvious that the mine nerf, the raven nerf and the stalker buff make it pretty much terrible.
Also increase shield battery cost won't change the fact that shield battery + photon canon combo get extremely cancerous late game. I'd suggest to have the shield battery auto casting on units only to have protoss manually micro-manage the batteries on canons to avoid spamming 10 batteries behind 10 canons.
The biggest problem of mech in TvP is the vP. Protoss as a race is a hardcounter to mech. Whenever I meet a mech player on ladder I just scream of pure joy. The only time I lose is when I scout horribly and fail
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Easy fix for shield battery is to have them only provide shields for units, not buildings.
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On November 21 2017 22:30 deacon.frost wrote:Next time he will be sure to see his whole base I guess C'mon, it's a learning phase of the game. In HotS such players lost to 2gate zealot rush in PvZ. Show nested quote +On November 21 2017 21:57 JackONeill wrote:
It's crazy to me how blizzard seems to want to have mech work in TvP (buffing the upgrade costs of tech lab upgrades) when it's so blatantly obvious that the mine nerf, the raven nerf and the stalker buff make it pretty much terrible.
Also increase shield battery cost won't change the fact that shield battery + photon canon combo get extremely cancerous late game. I'd suggest to have the shield battery auto casting on units only to have protoss manually micro-manage the batteries on canons to avoid spamming 10 batteries behind 10 canons. The biggest problem of mech in TvP is the vP. Protoss as a race is a hardcounter to mech. Whenever I meet a mech player on ladder I just scream of pure joy. The only time I lose is when I scout horribly and fail
I fail to see how that would help him in that game :D
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EPT
