EPTSc2 needs Life.
Life's Impact on SC2 - Page 6
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SuperFanBoy
New Zealand1068 Posts
Sc2 needs Life. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position. | ||
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Zephyp
238 Posts
He was the star of zerg for a long time, even if he had his ups and downs, and always gave us entertaining matches. | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
On October 10 2017 19:43 Zealously wrote: No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position. He did something very wrong. For me it's less bad than Gatling taking drugs two times and then still able to compete a couple years laters... I think that 2 years bans would have been enough but still, we may have not the same regard toward cheating here and in Korea. Also I didn't thought that this matchfix had any consequence about sc2 in Korea... if it really had this large impact then yes permban... For INnoVation vs Life, it sure is a hype match than we lose, but we still have INnoVation vs Rogue and INnoVation vs Dark for awesome TvZ matches | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 10 2017 23:35 fronkschnonk wrote: The problem of the permban vs comeback discussion is that we don't really know if Life really wants to come back. It would be necessary that he begs pardon and publicly regrets his mistakes. And then it still would be questionable if he would be able to become as good as he was after a break of two years. People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer. Not to mention, while Life does have some diehard support in the West, he is universally hated in Korea. By the fans, yes, but even moreso by his former compatriots. Every streamer I watched insta-quit the moment they realized they were playing Life. If they won't even play ladder matches against him, what do you think they'll do in a hypothetical tournament match? Fact is, as far as Starcraft 2 is concerned, Life is dead | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
On October 10 2017 19:43 Zealously wrote: No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position. Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it? Absolutely ridiculous. There's a billionty things to be outraged about, such as the equifax leak plus the C suite selling their stocks before the leak went public. Video games are not on this list of things to be upset about. Life should be allowed to compete again ASAP, the scene needs him. if life wants to throw the finals vs soO then great, soO can get a trophy finally. win/win User was warned for this post | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay Gambling isn't inherently illegal, rigging games/results in order to scam people is. That's what Life was part of And as for Life coming back. I know that in other sports/esports, bans are sometimes only a few years and the players return. But Life is utterly hated amongst koreans. Most of them instantly leave when they meet him on ladder, guys like Dark have even banned people from discussing him on their streams (or so I've heard anyway). From what I've read, no korean players want anything to do with match-fixers. Maybe in an ideal world, where matchfixing didn't have a history of killing korean esports, where his acts didn't aid the closing of kespa teams/proleague, he wouldn't be as hated in korea and might be welcomed back. But that's never going to happen. edit: also, "the current zergs aren't too good or consistant" - you seriously think Life was a consistant player? Yes at his peak he was the best zerg of all time, but he had some serious lows as well. Just because you only remember his games when he was good/winning doesn't mean he was like that all the time. | ||
peanuts
United States1225 Posts
He's still a piece of shit for matchfixing though. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On October 11 2017 04:15 fishjie wrote: Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it? This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones. Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 11 2017 04:36 Fango wrote: This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones. Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame. When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck. The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity. | ||
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Hadronsbecrazy
United Kingdom551 Posts
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Kaewins
Bulgaria138 Posts
Ever since then he has been an entertaining player to watch. I don't believe he's contributed much in terms of innovating the zerg metagame, there have been much more important zergs than him in SC2s history. It's just that his games we're really fun to watch, especially ZvT in my opinion. He was finding ways to throw his opponents off which was producing incredibly entertaining games. Real shame for what he did, LotV would have been much less boring if he was still around. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
That being said, I feel the guy was way overhyped, and that people cheating/fixing games shouldn't be looked at with any kind of kindness or nostalgia. | ||
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frazzle
United States468 Posts
On October 11 2017 04:50 pvsnp wrote: This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame. When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck. The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity. I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true. If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself. | ||
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DSh1
292 Posts
My first ever experience of watching esports/sc2 was a dreamhack with a Life/Taeja finals. I loved Life's games. It's been a while since then and now I watch a lot of tournaments. All these times I've never once really rooted for a Zerg, but somehow whenever Life played I wanted him to win. Maybe I could analyse it and provide a more objective answer, but I do feel like the above is a proper description how I and many people feel and why Life had such a huge impact on the scene. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 11 2017 08:53 frazzle wrote: I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true. If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself. I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense. A Korean fan recently made a long post about Life on Reddit: I’m not writing this to persuade anyone to hate Life. If it was true that there was coercion, okay, it can lessen my hatred about Life, but still, it can not be the reason that I should forgive and accept him as an SC2 player. Most criminals have their own personal reasons. But because of Life, his colleagues lost their jobs. All the staff of pro-teams lost their jobs too. As I told you, I want to see their "evidence" with that they insist that Life was threatened, but it won't change my mind. Since the destroyed Korean pro-scene cannot be changed even with it. ........ "I'm just surprised that foreign fans don't understand how Koreans feel about match-fixing. I saw some people translating Korean players' interviews - If they can read the Korean articles, they should have known these things. I guess some of them are fans of the match-fixers, so that's the reason they are filtering out the real responses from Korea." ......... "So that’s why Korean fans are very decisive when speaking about matchfixers, and not just Life, but everyone else involved. We have a zero-tolerance policy regarding matchfixing. Maybe there are people who try to defend him, but I don’t know anyone who would. If someone were to try and maintain that position other fans would be heavily critical of them." Full post is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/750ncc/a_korean_sc2_fans_opinion_on_life/ Mind you, I was simply talking about the Korean attitude toward Life. Regarding Life actually making a comeback, it's virtually impossible. Like I mentioned in an earlier post: "People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer." Wax's article: https://medium.com/@SaintSnorlax/examining-the-life-situation-without-the-moralizing-c047ff0dc2a0 | ||
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ilililililililiii
United States93 Posts
On October 09 2017 05:19 JWD[9] wrote: Is it a right? I thought of it more like a privilege and it does not seem that cruel to say, we are trying to build this awesome thing (esports) and he sabotaged it for personal gain. He does not care about the scene, he does not contribute to it, he rather gambles it away (which as an addiction could be seen as a sickness). It is like releasing a pedophile back into society. Sure he served his time, but it seems reasonable to say, he won't work with kids ever again. Yet I actually think in some societies they are allowed too. Do we have to take this, do we have to take life back if we want to be a real part of society, if esports should become a right and not a privilege? I don't know, interresting point though little barcode. im up for whatever the community decides | ||
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frazzle
United States468 Posts
On October 11 2017 09:43 pvsnp wrote: I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense. A Korean fan recently made a long post about Life on Reddit: I’m not writing this to persuade anyone to hate Life. If it was true that there was coercion, okay, it can lessen my hatred about Life, but still, it can not be the reason that I should forgive and accept him as an SC2 player. Most criminals have their own personal reasons. But because of Life, his colleagues lost their jobs. All the staff of pro-teams lost their jobs too. As I told you, I want to see their "evidence" with that they insist that Life was threatened, but it won't change my mind. Since the destroyed Korean pro-scene cannot be changed even with it. ........ "I'm just surprised that foreign fans don't understand how Koreans feel about match-fixing. I saw some people translating Korean players' interviews - If they can read the Korean articles, they should have known these things. I guess some of them are fans of the match-fixers, so that's the reason they are filtering out the real responses from Korea." ......... "So that’s why Korean fans are very decisive when speaking about matchfixers, and not just Life, but everyone else involved. We have a zero-tolerance policy regarding matchfixing. Maybe there are people who try to defend him, but I don’t know anyone who would. If someone were to try and maintain that position other fans would be heavily critical of them." Full post is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/750ncc/a_korean_sc2_fans_opinion_on_life/ Mind you, I was simply talking about the Korean attitude toward Life. Regarding Life actually making a comeback, it's virtually impossible. Like I mentioned in an earlier post: "People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer." Wax's article: https://medium.com/@SaintSnorlax/examining-the-life-situation-without-the-moralizing-c047ff0dc2a0 I respect all this. I had read the Olimoley post back when she posted it. I don't think Life should be welcomed back with warm embraces. He would need to face players refusing to play, and competitions banning him. I think Blizzard and whoever may be involved in Korea though should let it go though. Let fringe competitions have him play. Let people he knows get won over by his humility (assuming he has any). For all I know, Life doesn't have the character to achieve redemption under these circumstances. Or maybe Korean society wouldn't allow it. But I feel the official bans should be considered to have run their course and things should be allowed to play out. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 11 2017 10:22 frazzle wrote: I respect all this. I had read the Olimoley post back when she posted it. I don't think Life should be welcomed back with warm embraces. He would need to face players refusing to play, and competitions banning him. I think Blizzard and whoever may be involved in Korea though should let it go though. Let fringe competitions have him play. Let people he knows get won over by his humility (assuming he has any). For all I know, Life doesn't have the character to achieve redemption under these circumstances. Or maybe Korean society wouldn't allow it. But I feel the official bans should be considered to have run their course and things should be allowed to play out. Come to think of it, I don't think Life has ever made any kind of public statement on his position. Not even one of the pro forma apologies you might expect. In any case, the point I was getting at was that Life, as a Korean citizen and progamer, would almost certainly be very unwelcome if he tried to make a comeback to the Korean scene. That is a barrier to [re]entry, obviously, but not as large a barrier as KeSPA's permaban (and yes, KeSPA does still legally govern SC2 despite the KeSPA teams disbanding), and the largest barrier of all is Blizzard itself, which has shown every inclination of trying to erase Life from living memory. And as Wax put it: "While Blizzard hasn’t had to flex its muscle (that we know of), it holds the ultimate power should it choose to exercise it." Community hate is a "soft" barrier to entry. A sufficiently callous player could ignore the hate from fans/competitors and keep playing. Even if Life was universally loved by the community (hah), the official barriers to entry are the ones that actually provide the muscle that keeps him out, and those barriers aren't coming down regardless of what you or I say here. | ||
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