I've been seeing bunch of pro-Life posts lately and with stuff about potential life interview coming up, it got me curious: How much exactly did Life contribute to sc2?
Savior did incredible stuff for zerg and single handedly innovated zerg openers with all those 3 hatch muta builds/timings, incredible builds that were years ahead of time and paved path for modern BW zerg styles that remains most popular build to this day. But in the end of the day, his matchfixing is widely considered to have brought way more harm than his good his innovation has brought.
But unlike savior, Life seems to be still looked at fondly/positively, especially among foreign scene. I joined SC2 late at mid hots (after break from initial first months of Wol) so I am not exactly brushed up with sc2 history. I am kinda familiar with savior's side since I have been watching bunch of BW streams/Korean BW videos about what happened with savior, but I've never really watched/read about life. Can someone brush it up for me?
Doesn't matter how much impact you have when you are the main man behind a scene-ruining moneygrab. You will forever be hated. Life did something incredibly stupid but people will see past it and look at his actual contributions. As to what Life actually contributed in terms of play is harder to pin point, as sc2 never was as "set" as bw. I'll leave that to someone more knowledgeable.
On October 08 2017 18:55 nkr wrote: Doesn't matter how much impact you have when you are the main man behind a scene-ruining moneygrab.
2010 joined user speaks for the entire BW community... lmfao
Nah, sAviOr's ZvT in his prime is the stuff of legend, those matches still impress no matter how many times I rewatch them, and I didn't even main Zerg myself.
This one is like quicksand. So many implications and traps. Also life is the most stupid(genius?) nick. I think it is wise to follow the official narrative and talk real in much more private channel.
Life's contribution to gameplay was figuring out large parts of Zerg's aggressive potential. He began as an extremely cheesy player in every match-up. Especially early pools in ZvZ (but also how to transition out of them), aggressive speedling openings against Terran, a number of all-ins against Protoss. He changed the view that many had at the time of Zerg being purely a reactionary race that was "supposed" to macro, drone heavily and win in the lategame. Of course Life adapted over the years and had that in his locker as well, but even in macro games he was the best at finding avenues to counterattack and really stay aggressive the entire game. I cant' remember anyone who ever did it to that degree before him, and everyone has since.
I can't remember what he brought to sc2 meta, if I remember well he was playing often his own game with lings, it was quite hard to emulate for other zerg, he was so good at micro, timing, runby...
On October 08 2017 20:04 Mun_Su wrote: I can't remember what he brought to sc2 meta, if I remember well he was playing often his own game with lings, it was quite hard to emulate for other zerg, he was so good at micro, timing, runby...
On October 08 2017 19:41 DieuCure wrote: Yes you are so much smarter and aware than others people because you joined before.
So, you dont have to argue, just say that you have been here since a lot longer ...
Bro he literally made a sweeping generalization about a community which he was not a part of at the time, and I was... are you high?
Of course I'm going to call him out on his bullshit lmao.
Only people who were a part of the BW community are allowed to say that Savior ruined the scene. Sure
He said it didn't matter what he accomplished, which is false because only a complete ignoramus of BW competitive play would pretend his ZvT wasn't amazing... Of course there are also those whose emotions prevent objective judgment, but it's not like the entire community is some monolithic entity that wants him to die.
On October 08 2017 18:55 nkr wrote: Doesn't matter how much impact you have when you are the main man behind a scene-ruining moneygrab.
2010 joined user speaks for the entire BW community... lmfao
2015 joined user tries to be condescneding about join date
rolling on the floor laughing, haha!
Implying this is my first account or that I haven't been here long before SC2 came out.
lol wtf kinda reply is this
"Don't pretend like you know about the BW scene better than those of us who were there" kinda reply. Seems only fair to call out bs for the bs that it is.
I find OP's premise utterly absurd. Why should we judge the match-fixing based on the "contribution" of the player to strategic development? I think this is just taking the popular narratives of TL writers too far.
I am willing to respect that people have different views of the matchfixing than myself (because I am quite strongly against this lifetime ostracism) but forming those views based on how you perceive that the player changed the strategy is borderline insane. If you want to judge them for their misconduct, judge them for that and that's it.
If you ask why the reaction to Life is different, I would also propose that it's because SC2 is much more international and thus less fixed to the harsh Korean culture. In BW, the opinions of even foreigner fans were heavily formed by the reaction in Korea, as that's why everything happened, while in SC2, there is significant non-Korean presence, allowing for more plurarity of opinions.
Hes a matchfixer I don't care if its 1 game or 5000 games he damaged the integrity of the competition and broke not only SC2 tournament rules but the law as well, he can stay away from SC2 for the rest of his life.
On October 08 2017 21:08 opisska wrote: I find OP's premise utterly absurd. Why should we judge the match-fixing based on the "contribution" of the player to strategic development? I think this is just taking the popular narratives of TL writers too far.
I am willing to respect that people have different views of the matchfixing than myself (because I am quite strongly against this lifetime ostracism) but forming those views based on how you perceive that the player changed the strategy is borderline insane. If you want to judge them for their misconduct, judge them for that and that's it.
If you ask why the reaction to Life is different, I would also propose that it's because SC2 is much more international and thus less fixed to the harsh Korean culture. In BW, the opinions of even foreigner fans were heavily formed by the reaction in Korea, as that's why everything happened, while in SC2, there is significant non-Korean presence, allowing for more plurarity of opinions.
This is a good post btw... some of the opinions you will find on sAviOr on this forum are shaped by blind Koreaboo-ism and blind acquiescence/worship of a completely different social culture, rather than actual critical thinking or objective judgment of all the facts. For what it's worth, the far more international reach of SC2 and its scene somewhat alleviates this in the case of Life (as well as the difference in the exact circumstances of both cases).
So we are getting to the same point in the sc2 section of tl. Is Sc2 now finally old-school enough, so that you are only allowed to repeat the opinions of a few selected (old guard) personalities and if your stated opinion goes against this collective hive-mind, it will be shit upon? The longer you have been here, the more right you are and the more you are allowed to state your opinions. Kinda like in the BW section of tl. Or is it that BW players bring this kind of elitism into the sc2 section? The longer your account is registered, the bigger your e-Penis.
On October 08 2017 21:20 Zaros wrote: Hes a matchfixer I don't care if its 1 game or 5000 games he damaged the integrity of the competition and broke not only SC2 tournament rules but the law as well, he can stay away from SC2 for the rest of his life.
On the one hand, I like this position. Life becomes an example. "Best player of all time?" see what we did to him. Also speaks volumes about the integrity of the community. On top of that, this is about Sc2 as an esport and there is no reason ever to give him another chance. I was going to go with on the other hand here and take into consideration that as the best player of all times, he made it an artform and as someone here on the forum said, beauty is not the goal of competition, just a byproduct, he definitely brought out the best in his competition aswell. For me though, it boils down to, this is in the context of Sc2 being an esport and he should stay banned forever.
On October 08 2017 22:00 Musicus wrote: Apart from matchfixing he was probably also hacking, because "Lifelings" were definitely stronger than normal Zerglings.
What he achieved with just lings was insane.
This is basically it. He showed us that there was more micro potential in sc2 units than we previously imagined, and that using it would have a significant impact. It's a bit like Hero's probes in that game against Rogue, but with super fast zerglings, all the time.
On October 08 2017 22:00 Musicus wrote: Apart from matchfixing he was probably also hacking, because "Lifelings" were definitely stronger than normal Zerglings.
What he achieved with just lings was insane.
This is basically it. He showed us that there was more micro potential in sc2 units than we previously imagined, and that using it would have a significant impact. It's a bit like Hero's probes in that game against Rogue, but with super fast zerglings, all the time.
he was winning.. and a favorite to win practically every tournament he was in.
On October 08 2017 18:55 nkr wrote: Doesn't matter how much impact you have when you are the main man behind a scene-ruining moneygrab. You will forever be hated. ...
Let's get one thing very clear, first of all:
It doesn't mater FOR YOU. For you. Your opinion is yours only. When you speak, you speak for yourself, you cannot simply plug the whole community.
Life might have cheated in a certain percentage of his games let's say 1-2% (number is based on zero facts, just a guess) but that doesn't mean that the rest of his games did not heavily influence the meta, DK's balance decisions, etc etc.
Life was and will remain one of the most powerful players that the game has seen, and no one can take that away from him.
-----------
On topic, to OP: There are many excellent articles on TL written by stuchiu (as far as i remember) along his competitive career, which answer your question in great detail. Debating Life's influence to the scene is a pandora box due to his mistakes, which is why I recommend you just read the materials written about him.
On October 08 2017 18:55 nkr wrote: Doesn't matter how much impact you have when you are the main man behind a scene-ruining moneygrab.
2010 joined user speaks for the entire BW community... lmfao
2015 joined user tries to be condescneding about join date
rolling on the floor laughing, haha!
Implying this is my first account or that I haven't been here long before SC2 came out.
lol wtf kinda reply is this
"Don't pretend like you know about the BW scene better than those of us who were there" kinda reply. Seems only fair to call out bs for the bs that it is.
Are you trolling or do you really not understand how you are contradicting yourself?
personally i dont think he contributed much, he was good and it was just 'noticable' is all. His play style was very similar to everyone else, he just seemed to get a little more out of his units than most. I hate to say this as im the last person who agrees but lifes dominance (so to speak) was at the time zerg was flavour of the season, if you just looked at the win rates per race.
i wouldnt mind letting him come back on the scene just to see if its the case with the current resurgence of terran and toss to see if he really can engineer new ways to approach the match up as right now everyone's gone back to a muta ling bling . . .didnt we have this in wol?
As much as I like Life as a player and him being the reason I start watching competitive sc2, he should not be allowed to come back to the scene.
Forgive him because, you known, he was 18yo and mistakes happens, maybe why not? But one thing is forgive him in a personal way and another allow him to return as a player. Sorry but that door is closed.
His ling control was insane. Just like MarineKing showed us all the power of marine control (MKP VS Kyrix). Life showed us what a devastating force zerglings can be when they are used effectively and how much utility they can provide.
People like to attribute the fall of SC2 to life but I just don't think the evidence is there for that. I get that he shouldn't be allowed to compete but the additional toxicity of some people, and also the taboo of even talking about him in certain places, is ridiculous.
On October 09 2017 00:32 Warcloud wrote: People like to attribute the fall of SC2 to life but I just don't think the evidence is there for that. I get that he shouldn't be allowed to compete but the additional toxicity of some people, and also the taboo of even talking about him in certain places, is ridiculous.
People just like to have a scapegoat they can blame the downfall of SC2 on. His actions contributed to that surely but when a single player matchfixing destroys a scene there must have been a lot gone wrong before. (I realize Life wasn't the only matchfixer but I say "a single player" because people usually say SC2 died because of Life)
The reason why people are so sad about Life is that, unlike savior, Life was far and away the best player in the world at the time of the charges, and being that the current best zergs havent really found the answer to all the new stuff lotv has brought, we really want to see what lifes approach to the new expansion would have been.
IMO, in terms of zergs that arent nestea i think drg had a bigger impact on the game than Life. Life showed us what we knew in theory, that lings can do alot of damage if you can find a way to get them into your opponents base, Somehow he always knew how to do that.
DRG on the other hand is responsible for the broader strokes that zerg now knows intuitively. For instance, we now know that 3 bases really needs to be your top priority in the opening minutes of the game, whereas before it was about fighting on 2 and taking the 3rd when you feel safe. He showed everyone you can quickly open 3 bases zvp/zvt and be able to defend pressure which is a really big deal, cause now its about fighting on 3 and vying for a 4th.
While Stephano perfected the 12min roach max in ZVP, DRG is the one who started really abusing it to its limits with how to attack once your maxed. He would send a group to the 3rd first to distract then once the protoss army was out of position come barreling into the nat and sending another group into the main. No one had the apm to deal with it at the time.
He also showed what truly perfect muta ling bling control looks like, and where to prioritize your apm once your in the midgame. At the time, zerg micro was relatively sloppy compared to the other 2 races, but understandably so, as zerg DOES have more actions to press, while microing units doesnt yield the same value as the other 2 races does. The prevailing theory of the time was "All zerg units can be outmicro'd, so you must outmacro." Basically since all zerg units are expendable, it was considered a waste of time overmicroing them, time that would be better spent macroing.
DRG changed all that. He showed a very clean systematic way of attacking with ling bling muta. You get to where you want to be off 3 bases first. Than once the onslaught starts, while the lings and blings are rolling in, the mutas pick off key units and structures. With him though he showed that you rally your reinforcements OUTSIDE of opponents base, not into it. and that you never keep attacking once the blings are dead, you pull them back to rally, wait for the next round of blings and do it again while not losing any mutas in the process.
Because of the groundwork he laid, zergs had perfected the muta ling bling technique so well that bio became metawise unfavorable as zergs knew precisely how to counter it.
So here's to you DRG, those of us who've been watching for a long time know what you've done for the game.
On October 08 2017 20:04 Olli wrote: Ignoring the match-fixing part for the moment.
Life's contribution to gameplay was figuring out large parts of Zerg's aggressive potential. He began as an extremely cheesy player in every match-up. Especially early pools in ZvZ (but also how to transition out of them), aggressive speedling openings against Terran, a number of all-ins against Protoss. He changed the view that many had at the time of Zerg being purely a reactionary race that was "supposed" to macro, drone heavily and win in the lategame. Of course Life adapted over the years and had that in his locker as well, but even in macro games he was the best at finding avenues to counterattack and really stay aggressive the entire game. I cant' remember anyone who ever did it to that degree before him, and everyone has since.
That was admirable and beautiful. Marvellous. I really miss the kid's skills. What is he doing today to earn his money? Does anyone know?
On October 09 2017 00:46 Woosixion wrote: The reason why people are so sad about Life is that, unlike savior, Life was far and away the best player in the world at the time of the charges, and being that the current best zergs havent really found the answer to all the new stuff lotv has brought, we really want to see what lifes approach to the new expansion would have been.
IMO, in terms of zergs that arent nestea i think drg had a bigger impact on the game than Life. Life showed us what we knew in theory, that lings can do alot of damage if you can find a way to get them into your opponents base, Somehow he always knew how to do that.
DRG on the other hand is responsible for the broader strokes that zerg now knows intuitively. For instance, we now know that 3 bases really needs to be your top priority in the opening minutes of the game, whereas before it was about fighting on 2 and taking the 3rd when you feel safe. He showed everyone you can quickly open 3 bases zvp/zvt and be able to defend pressure which is a really big deal, cause now its about fighting on 3 and vying for a 4th.
While Stephano perfected the 12min roach max in ZVP, DRG is the one who started really abusing it to its limits with how to attack once your maxed. He would send a group to the 3rd first to distract then once the protoss army was out of position come barreling into the nat and sending another group into the main. No one had the apm to deal with it at the time.
He also showed what truly perfect muta ling bling control looks like, and where to prioritize your apm once your in the midgame. At the time, zerg micro was relatively sloppy compared to the other 2 races, but understandably so, as zerg DOES have more actions to press, while microing units doesnt yield the same value as the other 2 races does. The prevailing theory of the time was "All zerg units can be outmicro'd, so you must outmacro." Basically since all zerg units are expendable, it was considered a waste of time overmicroing them, time that would be better spent macroing.
DRG changed all that. He showed a very clean systematic way of attacking with ling bling muta. You get to where you want to be off 3 bases first. Than once the onslaught starts, while the lings and blings are rolling in, the mutas pick off key units and structures. With him though he showed that you rally your reinforcements OUTSIDE of opponents base, not into it. and that you never keep attacking once the blings are dead, you pull them back to rally, wait for the next round of blings and do it again while not losing any mutas in the process.
Because of the groundwork he laid, zergs had perfected the muta ling bling technique so well that bio became metawise unfavorable as zergs knew precisely how to counter it.
So here's to you DRG, those of us who've been watching for a long time know what you've done for the game.
It is very true in many ways, thank you for this post.
One has to admit though that Life had this shiny and aggressive sparkle in his play that no one showed before or after him.
Life should be allowed to come back, KESPA and Pro League no longer even exist and sometimes people just do dumb shit when they are young and trapped in a team house 24/7, 18 year olds are extremely immature and easy to pressure. Not saying that is an excuse for his actions but he's already been punished.
Whats the harm in having him come back anyway? It's not like theres really any money to even scam out of the scene anymore with how tiny it is, he should have been banned from competitive play for a set amount of time (2 to 3 years) and allowed to come back on a probationary contract or something.
I have a Korean friend who tells me that the SBENU scandal was a much bigger problem for the scene compared to Life/bbyong/Yoda, but they are an easier target. Weirdly, noone brings up SBENU when talking about the downfall of ProLeague
It is very true in many ways, thank you for this post.
One has to admit though that Life had this shiny and aggressive sparkle in his play that no one showed before or after him
Oh, without a question. The reason we're talking about Life now and not DRG even though they both had their breakout year in 2012 is because life could do everything DRG could do better. Who could ever forget the iron squid finals 2 where Life reverse sweeped DRG LOL.
But in terms of meta, I think DRG is the zerg that really started pushing the emphasis on mechanics for zerg since the units were so weak. The message of his playstyle was "Listen bros, i know our race is underpowered, so we have 2 options.... Become Nestea or make more stuff faster than the other 2 races"
I remember at the height of his popularity a interviewer asked DRG what he thought separated him from other zergs and his response was "My incredibly high APM of 500+" At that moment i knew my 70 apm wasn't gunna cut it.
Greatest Zerg of SC2 period. Single-handidly made the race look playable when every other Zerg couldn't do anything. Shame he had to go and throw it all away.
Metagame aside I think that Life contributed very much to the scene by creating hype. His games were mostly astonishing to watch. He often played just as good as his opponent demanded of him and this is why his games often were very close and therefore exciting to watch. Also he was kind of badass - smirky smile, backstab ling runbys, sometimes good trash talk and all of this paired with so much skill and success. Many couldn't help but root for him and he even made stuchiu creating an article-genre and becoming a meme. Also he had some really cool ZvT-rivalries: Life vs Taeja, Life vs Maru, Life vs Dream, Life vs Flash were must-watchs and created some of the greatest games of SC2-history.
The scene lost a lot of sparkliness because of his dumb move.
For me he was the most inspiring player ever. His play was the reason I switched to Zerg and keep playing it until now. His playstyle produced the most intense and exciting scenarios. Even when he was far behind, there was always hope he would salvage the game somehow. Life always found the way. He was the Swarm.
On October 08 2017 23:21 ilililililililiii wrote: Once a criminal serves his time he is allowed back into society. Thus he is given his rights back (sc2)
He is a CRIMINAL but he deserves to come back if he serves his time.
Is it a right? I thought of it more like a privilege and it does not seem that cruel to say, we are trying to build this awesome thing (esports) and he sabotaged it for personal gain. He does not care about the scene, he does not contribute to it, he rather gambles it away (which as an addiction could be seen as a sickness).
It is like releasing a pedophile back into society. Sure he served his time, but it seems reasonable to say, he won't work with kids ever again. Yet I actually think in some societies they are allowed too.
Do we have to take this, do we have to take life back if we want to be a real part of society, if esports should become a right and not a privilege? I don't know, interresting point though little barcode.
As a viewer i like the genius of SC2 Life was. Match fixing doesn't change the fact he was so skilled, he hasn't cheated to win competitions while he didn't deserve it, no he lost on purpose while he could have won more.
Of course he had no excuse to his behavior, he was on the top level, it's not like he was forced to do that to survive.
No i see life as an addicted gambler, that made him a SC2 genius, but also pushed him into bad choices and caused his fall.
Sadly, this sort of topic does not last long... Hum for me Life is the greatest player of the game, in term of pure skill, only Taeja was his equal. A beautiful playstyle but he made an enormous mistake, still, I would like to see him just allowed to stream on twitch as I have always dreamt to see a consistent pov of him. I lost 90% of my hype with his forced retirement as no others zergs managed to emulate him but I don't have any sort of animosity against him like some others,apparently, he was alienated to gambling, at 18, a big fuck up was ineluctable sadly.
It is very true in many ways, thank you for this post.
One has to admit though that Life had this shiny and aggressive sparkle in his play that no one showed before or after him
Oh, without a question. The reason we're talking about Life now and not DRG even though they both had their breakout year in 2012 is because life could do everything DRG could do better. Who could ever forget the iron squid finals 2 where Life reverse sweeped DRG LOL.
That series was so incredible.. I was in the crowd. I just want to comment on this. This series is the reason I and many others became lifelong fans.
Whatever may have made him do the matchfixing (we've heard CranK say that there are people forcing matchfixing to happen, threatening players) whether it's greed, his supposed gambling issues, bein coërced or whatever.. He's still and will forever be a great miss for StarCraft. Who knows what he could've done Every single year at some point he came back to show that he was still the #1 Zerg.
Life, although he was in fact one of the greatest players of SC2, is really easy to overhype. That's because his highs were so high, but people are forgetting that he had serious droughts as well when he would just roll over in games and accomplish nothing. He had many storybook runs to winning championships, but he lost in early rounds many times. In addition, he was only decent in GSTL and decidedly mediocre in Proleague.
As far as tactics go, his signature was the ling runby, which he always seemed to get more value out of than any other zerg - when you watched life his zerglings could completely tip the balance of the game, rather than just being an annoying hassle. He was also never afraid to break out the early aggressive tactics, which made him a tricky and dangerous opponent in the overall metagame.
For sure he is one of the signature zerg players of SC2, but I rank him among players like Nestea, DRG, and soO in the history of SC2 zerg rather than alone at the top.
(I might be a little biased because I was a huge fan of MKP (who lord knows had similar consistency issues), played terran, and always got tilted off the face of the earth when playing against cheesy zergs.)
For me, what made life so damn good was his ability to take advantage of his opponents attention. He knew the moments his opponents would focus on doing some micro and not pay attention to the minimap or be at home, and that's when the run-bys and counter attacks happened. Players try and do it all the time by attacking in multiple places to split attention, but that's when the opponent is already in a defensive frame of mind. Life knew how to consistently take advantage of players attention when they were trying to attack.
Let me just throw out my opinion as a lowly pleb who only finally created an account in June of 2012, but who has been visiting the site looking for build orders since 2007, and who bought Starcraft in the first month it was realeased in 98.
Can we agree that what savior did was worse than what Life did? At least in terms of the literal actual acts? And can we agree that while Life's actions may have precipitated the end of an era of team Korean SC2 as we knew it, they weren't the sole reason for it's downfall, just the final blow?
I think a 2 year ban is sufficient in his case. I was reckless as hell when I was 18. 18 is not a mature age. And his throws were relatively inconsequential (in terms of the actual import of the games) fringe games. If he is remorseful and wants to make up for it, and proves he will, he should be allowed to compete again. Redemption is the ultimate and greatest story line.
Maybe the term is half his winnings for 2 years (if any) go to fund tourneys. He has to agree to it to come back. I would love to see him play LotV and have a shot to earn respect again.
I like how half of these posts are on-topic with what the OP actually asked, and then half of them are the same old shit about what "should" happen with Life. As if it wasn't decided long ago by the powers that be.
On-topic, Life had a huge influence on the scene through his years of televised play, but I would say that it was more as an inspiration than through any particular playstyle. While he was undeniably a very skilled player, he didn't revolutionize mainstream Zerg philosophy in the way sAviOr did. Nor was Life, while popular, anything close to the cultural phenomenon that sAviOr was, in that sAviOr defined what it meant to be a bonjwa, both for himself and the players that came before (BoxeR, oov, NaDa).
And I don't know how OP thinks that Life is viewed positively. Life is universally hated in Korea, and loathed by a great many in the foreign scene as well. His matchfixing is acknowledged by anyone with any kind of knowledge about the SC2 scene as playing a crippling role in ending Proleague (and therefore the KeSPA teams and the entire professional SC2 infrastructure in Korea). While he does have some diehard fanatic apologists, they are more of an (annoyingly) vocal minority than anything else. The only person I would say is more hated than Life is sAviOr.
OP's reddit post that he copied and pasted here made it obvious this was about whether Life should be allowed back. But OK, here's my Life contribution.
He was the only Zerg making it happen after the SH nerf late HotS when zergs were getting rekt. And I loved the irony of how this guy, who rarely used SH, beat Parting with SH in GSL 2015 S1 G2 when Parting cannoned three bases. It was glorious.
On October 09 2017 10:22 frazzle wrote: OP's reddit post that he copied and pasted here made it obvious this was about whether Life should be allowed back. But OK, here's my Life contribution.
He was the only Zerg making it happen after the SH nerf late HotS when zergs were getting rekt. And I loved the irony of how this guy, who rarely used SH, beat Parting with SH in GSL 2015 S1 G2 when Parting cannoned three bases. It was glorious.
Byul was comfortably the best zerg of that time, not Life.
From my point of view life should not be allowed to play in the sc2 scene.
If blizzard allows a person who knew the consequences of match fixing, and then match-fixed anyway, choosing money over the credibility of the sc2 pro scene, what does it say about the company? Many Koreans hate Life, saying that his actions were some of the factors leading to the disbandment of Proleague, and allowing him back into the pro scene will cause arguably the Korean fans, arguably the backbone of SC2 e-sports to distrust blizzard and quit watching sc2, leading to the death of sc2 e-sports.
tl:dr allowing life to be a starcraft pro will destroy sc2 esports
^Blizzard already does exactly that. AZK was a convinced match-fixer in CS (threw with bets against themselves), got permabanned by Valve and switched to Overwatch. The games are different, but the point is the same - it is a person who knew the consequences of match-fixing, chose the money, and is playing in Blizzard's tournaments.
Lone Zerg that seemed to have that magical x-factor rarely seen in a lot of players. You just could never count him out in anything. If Nestea was the great innovator of defensive high-econ Zerg, Life was the direct opposite ushering in a highly aggressive and fluid brand of Zerg that dictated the pace of the game. Life to me was like the final form of July, with all the aggressive decisiveness but played with far more intelligence. Only sOs and Taeja could match his dynamic reactionary prowess.
On October 09 2017 12:54 Phredxor wrote: On October 09 2017 10:22 frazzle wrote: OP's reddit post that he copied and pasted here made it obvious this was about whether Life should be allowed back. But OK, here's my Life contribution.
He was the only Zerg making it happen after the SH nerf late HotS when zergs were getting rekt. And I loved the irony of how this guy, who rarely used SH, beat Parting with SH in GSL 2015 S1 G2 when Parting cannoned three bases. It was glorious.
Byul was comfortably the best zerg of that time, not Life.
This is true. In fact, the post-SH era of 2015 was one of Life's low-points in which he struggled to even remain in the top 5 among Zerg. He went out early in back to back seasons of GSL. Granted, he came back briefly at the very end of HotS at Blizzcon when it mattered the most.
On October 08 2017 18:55 nkr wrote: Doesn't matter how much impact you have when you are the main man behind a scene-ruining moneygrab.
2010 joined user speaks for the entire BW community... lmfao
2015 joined user tries to be condescneding about join date
rolling on the floor laughing, haha!
Implying this is my first account or that I haven't been here long before SC2 came out.
lol wtf kinda reply is this
"Don't pretend like you know about the BW scene better than those of us who were there" kinda reply. Seems only fair to call out bs for the bs that it is.
You don't know a shit, before around 2008 or something there were sites that had bigger following than TL. In 2006 it was considered a northern american site with opinion in wich NA players delusioned themselves of being better than they really (at time) were. TL was not always the same as foreign BW community.
On October 09 2017 18:29 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Lone Zerg that seemed to have that magical x-factor rarely seen in a lot of players. You just could never count him out in anything. If Nestea was the great innovator of defensive high-econ Zerg, Life was the direct opposite ushering in a highly aggressive and fluid brand of Zerg that dictated the pace of the game. Life to me was like the final form of July, with all the aggressive decisiveness but played with far more intelligence. Only sOs and Taeja could match his dynamic reactionary prowess.
On October 09 2017 12:54 Phredxor wrote: On October 09 2017 10:22 frazzle wrote: OP's reddit post that he copied and pasted here made it obvious this was about whether Life should be allowed back. But OK, here's my Life contribution.
He was the only Zerg making it happen after the SH nerf late HotS when zergs were getting rekt. And I loved the irony of how this guy, who rarely used SH, beat Parting with SH in GSL 2015 S1 G2 when Parting cannoned three bases. It was glorious.
Byul was comfortably the best zerg of that time, not Life.
This is true. In fact, the post-SH era of 2015 was one of Life's low-points in which he struggled to even remain in the top 5 among Zerg. He went out early in back to back seasons of GSL. Granted, he came back briefly at the very end of HotS at Blizzcon when it mattered the most.
I kind of disagree, the post SH area transformed zvp in one the worst balanced mu of all time (3 bases blink responded to every stuffs the zerg could thrown in the midgame hence wild monobuild protoss while the lategame was totally uniwinnable) and zvt was better but still pretty hard with the mecha. Every zergs at that period had troubles except Byul who was godlike agaisnt mech and so could keep up against terran. (while his zergs victories were a bit odds in the gsl s2). The multiple gambles, tricks, chesse and overall extreme agressivity that Life dispslayed at the bllizzcon was thrown because of this particular metagame (Byul tried to play standart and have been demolished, Rogue got stomped), still, against those odds, he managed to get in the final and loses it 3-4, a feat that strangely recalls the mvp's one in the GSL S4 2012. (I could add that he beat Parting, Stats in the kung fu cup)
On October 08 2017 21:56 vidium wrote: What is this campaign lately to make Life great again? Just forget about that cheater and move on.
cheating is defined as breaking the rules of a game in order to obtain an unfair advantage in said game. how does intentionally losing a game of sc2 secure life an unfair advantage in said game of sc2?
Reminder that Life did win GSL after SH nerf, bringing out new builds and cheeses. It was one of the 2 starleagues in all of HotS won by a Zerg player. Admittedly, he did get a bit lucky against herO (the infamous game 7 on Iron Fortress), but that was an extremely impressive run, given the state of Zerg in Korea at the time. While ByuL made 3 combined finals in the 3 consecutive starleagues after that (SSL, GSL, GSL), he wasn't close to winning any of them.
On October 09 2017 18:29 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Lone Zerg that seemed to have that magical x-factor rarely seen in a lot of players. You just could never count him out in anything. If Nestea was the great innovator of defensive high-econ Zerg, Life was the direct opposite ushering in a highly aggressive and fluid brand of Zerg that dictated the pace of the game. Life to me was like the final form of July, with all the aggressive decisiveness but played with far more intelligence. Only sOs and Taeja could match his dynamic reactionary prowess.
On October 09 2017 12:54 Phredxor wrote: On October 09 2017 10:22 frazzle wrote: OP's reddit post that he copied and pasted here made it obvious this was about whether Life should be allowed back. But OK, here's my Life contribution.
He was the only Zerg making it happen after the SH nerf late HotS when zergs were getting rekt. And I loved the irony of how this guy, who rarely used SH, beat Parting with SH in GSL 2015 S1 G2 when Parting cannoned three bases. It was glorious.
Byul was comfortably the best zerg of that time, not Life.
This is true. In fact, the post-SH era of 2015 was one of Life's low-points in which he struggled to even remain in the top 5 among Zerg. He went out early in back to back seasons of GSL. Granted, he came back briefly at the very end of HotS at Blizzcon when it mattered the most.
You're right. For zergs, that was ByuL's year, although unfortunately for him one in which he made his case for the Kong title. Getting 3-0'd in ro16 of Blizzcon was a huge letdown. Life, apart from beating Lilbow, was more or less counted out, making his run that more memorable.
In a way during HotS Life was kind of the sOs of zergs. He wasn't necessarily in the top 3 of zergs at any given time, and his play didn't define the zerg meta, but when he turned it on he was the most amazing player to watch.
On October 09 2017 22:17 Ej_ wrote: Reminder that Life did win GSL after SH nerf, bringing out new builds and cheeses. It was one of the 2 starleagues in all of HotS won by a Zerg player. Admittedly, he did get a bit lucky against herO (the infamous game 7 on Iron Fortress), but that was an extremely impressive run, given the state of Zerg in Korea at the time. While ByuL made 3 combined finals in the 3 consecutive starleagues after that (SSL, GSL, GSL), he wasn't close to winning any of them.
No he did not, he won the GSL 2015 S1 and SH was pre nerf (look at the game 2 in the final)
Life figured out an incredible aggressive and exciting playstyle with zerg, called zergling (+ mutalisk). It is so difficult that nobody else is able to play it in same way as life.
On October 08 2017 22:40 beheamothsc wrote: personally i dont think he contributed much, he was good and it was just 'noticable' is all. His play style was very similar to everyone else, he just seemed to get a little more out of his units than most. I hate to say this as im the last person who agrees but lifes dominance (so to speak) was at the time zerg was flavour of the season, if you just looked at the win rates per race.
i wouldnt mind letting him come back on the scene just to see if its the case with the current resurgence of terran and toss to see if he really can engineer new ways to approach the match up as right now everyone's gone back to a muta ling bling . . .didnt we have this in wol?
Life was the only winning zerg for many seasons! Similar to innovation.
Life invented the playstyle with zerglings. Nobody else could do the same things with zerglings and mutas and still nobody can.
I'm in favor of a zero tolerance policy. I don't really understand why, for every famous person that abuses their power, there are legions of people that want to put that person back into power.
In my opinion...
If I'm an entrepeneur and I defraud the state, I should no longer have any sort of access to government loans and so on. Instead I can just become an employee somewhere. If I'm a politician and I'm caught solliciting bribes, I should be banned from all government functions and perhaps go work in the private sector. If I'm an athlete and I'm caught using doping and engaging in matchfixing I should just be eliminated from professional competition. If I really enjoy what I'm doing I can continue as an amateur in my spare time, while otherwise pursuing a career in some other place.
None of these are personal foibles or sins. If I'm an athlete and I'm caught using recreational drugs or engaging in illegal gambling, then this should in my view not be considered a breach of professional ethics. Perhaps legally my employer has a right to fire me based on some contract I signed, but I shouldn't be prevented from seeking employment within the same industry. But if I commit a very serious breach of professional ethics, like matchfixing for an athlete, or fraudulent behavior for a banker, then I should be seen as toxic and should be barred from the sector, at least for a handful of years and contingent on reforming as a person.
In all of these scenarios I would be something of a role model, these are positions with a lot of visibility where I can gain a lot of wealth or power. The standards should be even higher there. Furthermore, I can always find employment elsewhere.
I understand why athletes would be trying to get away with it, they probably like getting to play games for a living and being adored by many. And fans might consider these players talented and charismatic and want to see them play, and are invested in their careers. And for organizers they might be big draws with existing fan bases. But it's still not right.
A cashier who steals from a cash register in the supermarket in a local town once can be blacklisted from all realistic avenues of employment, and no one cares while that person languishes in poverty. But if you get to be on television you can commit any crime, no matter how serious, and you will be rehabilitated and forgiven.
Life is still young, he can just go to university and become an obscure student. That's what he deserves, and it's not a bad fate. Same for Savior. They should just move on and accept their losses. Any continuing presence in the community is a signal to amoral people everywhere that they can get away with it, and that if you're famous or powerful enough professional standards don't apply to you.
On October 09 2017 22:17 Ej_ wrote: Reminder that Life did win GSL after SH nerf, bringing out new builds and cheeses. It was one of the 2 starleagues in all of HotS won by a Zerg player. Admittedly, he did get a bit lucky against herO (the infamous game 7 on Iron Fortress), but that was an extremely impressive run, given the state of Zerg in Korea at the time. While ByuL made 3 combined finals in the 3 consecutive starleagues after that (SSL, GSL, GSL), he wasn't close to winning any of them.
No he did not, he won the GSL 2015 S1 and SH was pre nerf (look at the game 2 in the final)
Even the game 6 in that same GSL series from where he takes the lucky game #7 on Iron Fortress was played with long lasting SH... _________________________________ On the topic.
Life is similar to Parting and Maru. All these players were winning fights in which they were supposed to lose because their composition was: 1) weaker 2) at the "wrong" position 3) "bad"
And they were winning these fights because of their micro. Anyone could have done what Life was doing with lings. None have made it. Or they chose the safer way(e.g. soO, DRG) because - let's face it - this micro intensive aggressive style is about immaculate control. 1 mistake can end the game while being on the safer side of the play you can get away with small mistakes(even on this level).
I don't play Zerg but I dare to say that Life didn't invent anything. He made several builds more aggressive, he showed that being aggressive is viable but he polished others builds. The same way Maru didn't invent the MMMM style, but was a beast in it. And the same way Parting didn't invent blink stalkers timings. Not sure about immortal all in(my bet is on Squirtle but it's a long time ago ).
Wrote this in the past tense as I don't know how's Maru lately and to be fair it's about Life time which was before LotV anyway
(Parting actually made Protoss history with the Templar style IIRC but this is about Life ))
On October 09 2017 22:17 Ej_ wrote: Reminder that Life did win GSL after SH nerf, bringing out new builds and cheeses. It was one of the 2 starleagues in all of HotS won by a Zerg player. Admittedly, he did get a bit lucky against herO (the infamous game 7 on Iron Fortress), but that was an extremely impressive run, given the state of Zerg in Korea at the time. While ByuL made 3 combined finals in the 3 consecutive starleagues after that (SSL, GSL, GSL), he wasn't close to winning any of them.
No he did not, he won the GSL 2015 S1 and SH was pre nerf (look at the game 2 in the final)
Even the game 6 in that same GSL series from where he takes the lucky game #7 on Iron Fortress was played with long lasting SH... _________________________________ On the topic.
Life is similar to Parting and Maru. All these players were winning fights in which they were supposed to lose because their composition was: 1) weaker 2) at the "wrong" position 3) "bad"
And they were winning these fights because of their micro. Anyone could have done what Life was doing with lings. None have made it. Or they chose the safer way(e.g. soO, DRG) because - let's face it - this micro intensive aggressive style is about immaculate control. 1 mistake can end the game while being on the safer side of the play you can get away with small mistakes(even on this level).
I don't play Zerg but I dare to say that Life didn't invent anything. He made several builds more aggressive, he showed that being aggressive is viable but he polished others builds. The same way Maru didn't invent the MMMM style, but was a beast in it. And the same way Parting didn't invent blink stalkers timings. Not sure about immortal all in(my bet is on Squirtle but it's a long time ago ).
Wrote this in the past tense as I don't know how's Maru lately and to be fair it's about Life time which was before LotV anyway
(Parting actually made Protoss history with the Templar style IIRC but this is about Life ))
yay 2 bases immortal sentry all in was definitly a Squirtle build, polished by Parting
You get punished ONCE for your crime. Lynching for years after this, is stupid. There were much more terrible things that famous people have done, and didn't receive the same reaction for stupid few video games matchfixing made by 18 year old. Get a grip on reality. Which one of you was perfect role model at age of 17-18?
On October 10 2017 00:33 NightOfTheDead wrote: God I never understood this.
You get punished ONCE for your crime. Lynching for years after this, is stupid. There were much more terrible things that famous people have done, and didn't receive the same reaction for stupid few video games matchfixing made by 18 year old. Get a grip on reality. Which one of you was perfect role model at age of 17-18?
Just keep it calm. Otherwise this thread will end up as the others, locked.
I would like to say that Life as a player contributed heavily to the way people viewed zerg play (specifically the use of zerglings). Life was so good at finding any opening he could and gaining incremental advantage through aggressive, cost-efficient ling play.
I would also like to say that Life's "abuse" of zerglings led to the ling infestor playstyle that was abused to hit BL/festor compositions, which Stephano was clearly master class at abusing in weekend tournaments.
I can't say SC2 ever had groundbreaking meta destruction like BW, but it doesn't necessarily have to for Life to still have been an influential player.
On October 10 2017 00:33 NightOfTheDead wrote: God I never understood this.
You get punished ONCE for your crime. Lynching for years after this, is stupid. There were much more terrible things that famous people have done, and didn't receive the same reaction for stupid few video games matchfixing made by 18 year old. Get a grip on reality. Which one of you was perfect role model at age of 17-18?
This is exactly the type of post that screams to the mods to lock this thread.
And nobody here pronounced judgement on Life. Go preach this kind of moralizing bullshit to the Korean legal system and see if they care.
On October 09 2017 22:17 Ej_ wrote: Reminder that Life did win GSL after SH nerf, bringing out new builds and cheeses. It was one of the 2 starleagues in all of HotS won by a Zerg player. Admittedly, he did get a bit lucky against herO (the infamous game 7 on Iron Fortress), but that was an extremely impressive run, given the state of Zerg in Korea at the time. While ByuL made 3 combined finals in the 3 consecutive starleagues after that (SSL, GSL, GSL), he wasn't close to winning any of them.
No he did not, he won the GSL 2015 S1 and SH was pre nerf (look at the game 2 in the final)
Even the game 6 in that same GSL series from where he takes the lucky game #7 on Iron Fortress was played with long lasting SH... _________________________________ On the topic.
Life is similar to Parting and Maru. All these players were winning fights in which they were supposed to lose because their composition was: 1) weaker 2) at the "wrong" position 3) "bad"
And they were winning these fights because of their micro. Anyone could have done what Life was doing with lings. None have made it. Or they chose the safer way(e.g. soO, DRG) because - let's face it - this micro intensive aggressive style is about immaculate control. 1 mistake can end the game while being on the safer side of the play you can get away with small mistakes(even on this level).
I don't play Zerg but I dare to say that Life didn't invent anything. He made several builds more aggressive, he showed that being aggressive is viable but he polished others builds. The same way Maru didn't invent the MMMM style, but was a beast in it. And the same way Parting didn't invent blink stalkers timings. Not sure about immortal all in(my bet is on Squirtle but it's a long time ago ).
Wrote this in the past tense as I don't know how's Maru lately and to be fair it's about Life time which was before LotV anyway
(Parting actually made Protoss history with the Templar style IIRC but this is about Life ))
Well said, Maru, PartinG and Life were the ultimate micro players in SC2. Another thing they had in common was that they all had a very cocky attitude and weren't afraid to trashtalk (okay, Maru didn't trashtalk) or drop Manner Mules/ place manner hatches. Probably my 3 favourite players.
On October 09 2017 22:17 Ej_ wrote: Reminder that Life did win GSL after SH nerf, bringing out new builds and cheeses. It was one of the 2 starleagues in all of HotS won by a Zerg player. Admittedly, he did get a bit lucky against herO (the infamous game 7 on Iron Fortress), but that was an extremely impressive run, given the state of Zerg in Korea at the time. While ByuL made 3 combined finals in the 3 consecutive starleagues after that (SSL, GSL, GSL), he wasn't close to winning any of them.
No he did not, he won the GSL 2015 S1 and SH was pre nerf (look at the game 2 in the final)
Even the game 6 in that same GSL series from where he takes the lucky game #7 on Iron Fortress was played with long lasting SH... _________________________________ On the topic.
Life is similar to Parting and Maru. All these players were winning fights in which they were supposed to lose because their composition was: 1) weaker 2) at the "wrong" position 3) "bad"
And they were winning these fights because of their micro. Anyone could have done what Life was doing with lings. None have made it. Or they chose the safer way(e.g. soO, DRG) because - let's face it - this micro intensive aggressive style is about immaculate control. 1 mistake can end the game while being on the safer side of the play you can get away with small mistakes(even on this level).
I don't play Zerg but I dare to say that Life didn't invent anything. He made several builds more aggressive, he showed that being aggressive is viable but he polished others builds. The same way Maru didn't invent the MMMM style, but was a beast in it. And the same way Parting didn't invent blink stalkers timings. Not sure about immortal all in(my bet is on Squirtle but it's a long time ago ).
Wrote this in the past tense as I don't know how's Maru lately and to be fair it's about Life time which was before LotV anyway
(Parting actually made Protoss history with the Templar style IIRC but this is about Life ))
Well said, Maru, PartinG and Life were the ultimate micro players in SC2. Another thing they had in common was that they all had a very cocky attitude and weren't afraid to trashtalk (okay, Maru didn't trashtalk) or drop Manner Mules/ place manner hatches. Probably my 3 favourite players.
The only other person that gives Maru-level boring interviews is INnoVation. The Maru vs Inno interview in 2015 GSL Season 3 semifinals was hilariously bland.
On October 09 2017 22:17 Ej_ wrote: Reminder that Life did win GSL after SH nerf, bringing out new builds and cheeses. It was one of the 2 starleagues in all of HotS won by a Zerg player. Admittedly, he did get a bit lucky against herO (the infamous game 7 on Iron Fortress), but that was an extremely impressive run, given the state of Zerg in Korea at the time. While ByuL made 3 combined finals in the 3 consecutive starleagues after that (SSL, GSL, GSL), he wasn't close to winning any of them.
No he did not, he won the GSL 2015 S1 and SH was pre nerf (look at the game 2 in the final)
Even the game 6 in that same GSL series from where he takes the lucky game #7 on Iron Fortress was played with long lasting SH... _________________________________ On the topic.
Life is similar to Parting and Maru. All these players were winning fights in which they were supposed to lose because their composition was: 1) weaker 2) at the "wrong" position 3) "bad"
And they were winning these fights because of their micro. Anyone could have done what Life was doing with lings. None have made it. Or they chose the safer way(e.g. soO, DRG) because - let's face it - this micro intensive aggressive style is about immaculate control. 1 mistake can end the game while being on the safer side of the play you can get away with small mistakes(even on this level).
I don't play Zerg but I dare to say that Life didn't invent anything. He made several builds more aggressive, he showed that being aggressive is viable but he polished others builds. The same way Maru didn't invent the MMMM style, but was a beast in it. And the same way Parting didn't invent blink stalkers timings. Not sure about immortal all in(my bet is on Squirtle but it's a long time ago ).
Wrote this in the past tense as I don't know how's Maru lately and to be fair it's about Life time which was before LotV anyway
(Parting actually made Protoss history with the Templar style IIRC but this is about Life ))
Well said, Maru, PartinG and Life were the ultimate micro players in SC2. Another thing they had in common was that they all had a very cocky attitude and weren't afraid to trashtalk (okay, Maru didn't trashtalk) or drop Manner Mules/ place manner hatches. Probably my 3 favourite players.
The only other person that gives Maru-level boring interviews is INnoVation. The Maru vs Inno interview in 2015 GSL Season 3 semifinals was hilariously bland.
Yeah Maru's cockyness doesn't show in his interviews but the way he always manner-mules his opponent certainly shows it. Just watch Maru vs Myungsik. Or his cheeky smiles after destroying his opponents that says something like "ez pz guys"
On October 09 2017 22:17 Ej_ wrote: Reminder that Life did win GSL after SH nerf, bringing out new builds and cheeses. It was one of the 2 starleagues in all of HotS won by a Zerg player. Admittedly, he did get a bit lucky against herO (the infamous game 7 on Iron Fortress), but that was an extremely impressive run, given the state of Zerg in Korea at the time. While ByuL made 3 combined finals in the 3 consecutive starleagues after that (SSL, GSL, GSL), he wasn't close to winning any of them.
No he did not, he won the GSL 2015 S1 and SH was pre nerf (look at the game 2 in the final)
Even the game 6 in that same GSL series from where he takes the lucky game #7 on Iron Fortress was played with long lasting SH... _________________________________ On the topic.
Life is similar to Parting and Maru. All these players were winning fights in which they were supposed to lose because their composition was: 1) weaker 2) at the "wrong" position 3) "bad"
And they were winning these fights because of their micro. Anyone could have done what Life was doing with lings. None have made it. Or they chose the safer way(e.g. soO, DRG) because - let's face it - this micro intensive aggressive style is about immaculate control. 1 mistake can end the game while being on the safer side of the play you can get away with small mistakes(even on this level).
I don't play Zerg but I dare to say that Life didn't invent anything. He made several builds more aggressive, he showed that being aggressive is viable but he polished others builds. The same way Maru didn't invent the MMMM style, but was a beast in it. And the same way Parting didn't invent blink stalkers timings. Not sure about immortal all in(my bet is on Squirtle but it's a long time ago ).
Wrote this in the past tense as I don't know how's Maru lately and to be fair it's about Life time which was before LotV anyway
(Parting actually made Protoss history with the Templar style IIRC but this is about Life ))
Well said, Maru, PartinG and Life were the ultimate micro players in SC2. Another thing they had in common was that they all had a very cocky attitude and weren't afraid to trashtalk (okay, Maru didn't trashtalk) or drop Manner Mules/ place manner hatches. Probably my 3 favourite players.
The only other person that gives Maru-level boring interviews is INnoVation. The Maru vs Inno interview in 2015 GSL Season 3 semifinals was hilariously bland.
Yeah Maru's cockyness doesn't show in his interviews but the way he always manner-mules his opponent certainly shows it. Just watch Maru vs Myungsik. Or his cheeky smiles after destroying his opponents that says something like "ez pz guys"
That's fair enough. Life and especially Parting could really let their arrogance show in interviews. Though I do believe Maru vs Myungsik was a special case (wasn't Maru getting revenge for another JinAir player that Myungsik bm'd?)
Also I love manner mules, they're by far the best form of bm. Something about the pod-landing aesthetic is just so much more cheeky than manner hatches/nexi. Dancing is not bad either, but manner mules are still the best way to broadcast the whole "get out, you scrub" message imo.
On October 09 2017 22:17 Ej_ wrote: Reminder that Life did win GSL after SH nerf, bringing out new builds and cheeses. It was one of the 2 starleagues in all of HotS won by a Zerg player. Admittedly, he did get a bit lucky against herO (the infamous game 7 on Iron Fortress), but that was an extremely impressive run, given the state of Zerg in Korea at the time. While ByuL made 3 combined finals in the 3 consecutive starleagues after that (SSL, GSL, GSL), he wasn't close to winning any of them.
No he did not, he won the GSL 2015 S1 and SH was pre nerf (look at the game 2 in the final)
Even the game 6 in that same GSL series from where he takes the lucky game #7 on Iron Fortress was played with long lasting SH... _________________________________ On the topic.
Life is similar to Parting and Maru. All these players were winning fights in which they were supposed to lose because their composition was: 1) weaker 2) at the "wrong" position 3) "bad"
And they were winning these fights because of their micro. Anyone could have done what Life was doing with lings. None have made it. Or they chose the safer way(e.g. soO, DRG) because - let's face it - this micro intensive aggressive style is about immaculate control. 1 mistake can end the game while being on the safer side of the play you can get away with small mistakes(even on this level).
I don't play Zerg but I dare to say that Life didn't invent anything. He made several builds more aggressive, he showed that being aggressive is viable but he polished others builds. The same way Maru didn't invent the MMMM style, but was a beast in it. And the same way Parting didn't invent blink stalkers timings. Not sure about immortal all in(my bet is on Squirtle but it's a long time ago ).
Wrote this in the past tense as I don't know how's Maru lately and to be fair it's about Life time which was before LotV anyway
(Parting actually made Protoss history with the Templar style IIRC but this is about Life ))
Well said, Maru, PartinG and Life were the ultimate micro players in SC2. Another thing they had in common was that they all had a very cocky attitude and weren't afraid to trashtalk (okay, Maru didn't trashtalk) or drop Manner Mules/ place manner hatches. Probably my 3 favourite players.
The only other person that gives Maru-level boring interviews is INnoVation. The Maru vs Inno interview in 2015 GSL Season 3 semifinals was hilariously bland.
Yeah Maru's cockyness doesn't show in his interviews but the way he always manner-mules his opponent certainly shows it. Just watch Maru vs Myungsik. Or his cheeky smiles after destroying his opponents that says something like "ez pz guys"
That's fair enough. Life and especially Parting could really let their arrogance show in interviews. Though I do believe Maru vs Myungsik was a special case (wasn't Maru getting revenge for another JinAir player that Myungsik bm'd?)
Yes but most players wouldn't have the balls to do this in case they lose and look like an idiot. The game was still pretty even when Maru started his BM. And it's not the only instance of him BMing. often when he mannermules I ask myself "how can he be so sure the game is over?"
On October 09 2017 22:17 Ej_ wrote: Reminder that Life did win GSL after SH nerf, bringing out new builds and cheeses. It was one of the 2 starleagues in all of HotS won by a Zerg player. Admittedly, he did get a bit lucky against herO (the infamous game 7 on Iron Fortress), but that was an extremely impressive run, given the state of Zerg in Korea at the time. While ByuL made 3 combined finals in the 3 consecutive starleagues after that (SSL, GSL, GSL), he wasn't close to winning any of them.
No he did not, he won the GSL 2015 S1 and SH was pre nerf (look at the game 2 in the final)
Even the game 6 in that same GSL series from where he takes the lucky game #7 on Iron Fortress was played with long lasting SH... _________________________________ On the topic.
Life is similar to Parting and Maru. All these players were winning fights in which they were supposed to lose because their composition was: 1) weaker 2) at the "wrong" position 3) "bad"
And they were winning these fights because of their micro. Anyone could have done what Life was doing with lings. None have made it. Or they chose the safer way(e.g. soO, DRG) because - let's face it - this micro intensive aggressive style is about immaculate control. 1 mistake can end the game while being on the safer side of the play you can get away with small mistakes(even on this level).
I don't play Zerg but I dare to say that Life didn't invent anything. He made several builds more aggressive, he showed that being aggressive is viable but he polished others builds. The same way Maru didn't invent the MMMM style, but was a beast in it. And the same way Parting didn't invent blink stalkers timings. Not sure about immortal all in(my bet is on Squirtle but it's a long time ago ).
Wrote this in the past tense as I don't know how's Maru lately and to be fair it's about Life time which was before LotV anyway
(Parting actually made Protoss history with the Templar style IIRC but this is about Life ))
Well said, Maru, PartinG and Life were the ultimate micro players in SC2. Another thing they had in common was that they all had a very cocky attitude and weren't afraid to trashtalk (okay, Maru didn't trashtalk) or drop Manner Mules/ place manner hatches. Probably my 3 favourite players.
The only other person that gives Maru-level boring interviews is INnoVation. The Maru vs Inno interview in 2015 GSL Season 3 semifinals was hilariously bland.
Yeah Maru's cockyness doesn't show in his interviews but the way he always manner-mules his opponent certainly shows it. Just watch Maru vs Myungsik. Or his cheeky smiles after destroying his opponents that says something like "ez pz guys"
That's fair enough. Life and especially Parting could really let their arrogance show in interviews. Though I do believe Maru vs Myungsik was a special case (wasn't Maru getting revenge for another JinAir player that Myungsik bm'd?)
often when he mannermules I ask myself "how can he be so sure the game is over?"
I'm sure when you play as many games as the pros do, and bm as much as they do, you get a sense of when you can safely do it or not. Unless you're Dear that it.
Maru vs mysungsik wasn't really arrogant, he was getting revenge for Rogue iirc? Although the bm did reach ridiculous levels. The aggressively early mules against nerchio were also justified imo. (Although I am biased becuase Maru is one of my favourate players and Mysungsik and Nerchio are guys I enjoyed seeing lose). Now his bm against Creator and a few other players were overly brutal
On the subject of Life, I disagree that he revolutionised zerg play like people claim. He was better than anyone else at what he did, but no one replicated him with much success. Life is in the bundle of players that found success with techniques entirely their own.
On October 09 2017 06:37 jubil wrote: Life, although he was in fact one of the greatest players of SC2, is really easy to overhype. That's because his highs were so high, but people are forgetting that he had serious droughts as well when he would just roll over in games and accomplish nothing. He had many storybook runs to winning championships, but he lost in early rounds many times. In addition, he was only decent in GSTL and decidedly mediocre in Proleague.
As far as tactics go, his signature was the ling runby, which he always seemed to get more value out of than any other zerg - when you watched life his zerglings could completely tip the balance of the game, rather than just being an annoying hassle. He was also never afraid to break out the early aggressive tactics, which made him a tricky and dangerous opponent in the overall metagame.
For sure he is one of the signature zerg players of SC2, but I rank him among players like Nestea, DRG, and soO in the history of SC2 zerg rather than alone at the top.
(I might be a little biased because I was a huge fan of MKP (who lord knows had similar consistency issues), played terran, and always got tilted off the face of the earth when playing against cheesy zergs.)
I think his ability to get out of the downs again and again to win really big titles over many years (and everyone predicted him doing it again in LotV) is what makes him so great for many people. Before both of his blizzcon finals he slumped quite hard seemingly having lost his motivation. But blizzcon made him care again and he was on the top in a matter of weeks. Also it's not like he ever slumped for a really long time. He won really big premier tournaments beating the best players of the time every year since 2012. Also he made this when the competetiveness got tougher and tougher while Nestea and DRG couldn't keep up. soO may be the only zerg who's a real competitor for Life's greatness - but not actually winning stuff doesn't help in that regard
deacon.frost wrote: I don't play Zerg but I dare to say that Life didn't invent anything. He made several builds more aggressive, he showed that being aggressive is viable but he polished others builds. The same way Maru didn't invent the MMMM style, but was a beast in it. And the same way Parting didn't invent blink stalkers timings. Not sure about immortal all in(my bet is on Squirtle but it's a long time ago ).
I don't think that having impact on the game is only about inventing stuff. It's about to make stuff work at the highest level. Many would look at some clever strategies thinking - naaah, that won't work. But the Lifes, Marus and Partings made those playstyles playable and therefore famous. They figured out which edges had to be cut, what angled had to be taken, which timings had to be played. This is really hard work and they wouldn't have invested it if they hadn't have some vision of how the game should work. Otherwise they just would've copied the mainstream stuff.
On October 09 2017 22:17 Ej_ wrote: Reminder that Life did win GSL after SH nerf, bringing out new builds and cheeses. It was one of the 2 starleagues in all of HotS won by a Zerg player. Admittedly, he did get a bit lucky against herO (the infamous game 7 on Iron Fortress), but that was an extremely impressive run, given the state of Zerg in Korea at the time. While ByuL made 3 combined finals in the 3 consecutive starleagues after that (SSL, GSL, GSL), he wasn't close to winning any of them.
No he did not, he won the GSL 2015 S1 and SH was pre nerf (look at the game 2 in the final)
Even the game 6 in that same GSL series from where he takes the lucky game #7 on Iron Fortress was played with long lasting SH... _________________________________ On the topic.
Life is similar to Parting and Maru. All these players were winning fights in which they were supposed to lose because their composition was: 1) weaker 2) at the "wrong" position 3) "bad"
And they were winning these fights because of their micro. Anyone could have done what Life was doing with lings. None have made it. Or they chose the safer way(e.g. soO, DRG) because - let's face it - this micro intensive aggressive style is about immaculate control. 1 mistake can end the game while being on the safer side of the play you can get away with small mistakes(even on this level).
I don't play Zerg but I dare to say that Life didn't invent anything. He made several builds more aggressive, he showed that being aggressive is viable but he polished others builds. The same way Maru didn't invent the MMMM style, but was a beast in it. And the same way Parting didn't invent blink stalkers timings. Not sure about immortal all in(my bet is on Squirtle but it's a long time ago ).
Wrote this in the past tense as I don't know how's Maru lately and to be fair it's about Life time which was before LotV anyway
(Parting actually made Protoss history with the Templar style IIRC but this is about Life ))
Well said, Maru, PartinG and Life were the ultimate micro players in SC2. Another thing they had in common was that they all had a very cocky attitude and weren't afraid to trashtalk (okay, Maru didn't trashtalk) or drop Manner Mules/ place manner hatches. Probably my 3 favourite players.
The only other person that gives Maru-level boring interviews is INnoVation. The Maru vs Inno interview in 2015 GSL Season 3 semifinals was hilariously bland.
Yeah Maru's cockyness doesn't show in his interviews but the way he always manner-mules his opponent certainly shows it. Just watch Maru vs Myungsik. Or his cheeky smiles after destroying his opponents that says something like "ez pz guys"
That's fair enough. Life and especially Parting could really let their arrogance show in interviews. Though I do believe Maru vs Myungsik was a special case (wasn't Maru getting revenge for another JinAir player that Myungsik bm'd?)
often when he mannermules I ask myself "how can he be so sure the game is over?"
I'm sure when you play as many games as the pros do, and bm as much as they do, you get a sense of when you can safely do it or not. Unless you're Dear that it.
Maru vs mysungsik wasn't really arrogant, he was getting revenge for Rogue iirc? Although the bm did reach ridiculous levels. The aggressively early mules against nerchio were also justified imo. (Although I am biased becuase Maru is one of my favourate players and Mysungsik and Nerchio are guys I enjoyed seeing lose). Now his bm against Creator and a few other players were overly brutal
On the subject of Life, I disagree that he revolutionised zerg play like people claim. He was better than anyone else at what he did, but no one replicated him with much success. Life is in the bundle of players that found success with techniques entirely their own.
These posts are remarkably on point given Life's premature manner hatches against Naniwa in the IEM NY Grand Finals. (Here for reference)
One thing that always stood out to me about Life's gameplay was his ability to make Zerg seem stronger than it was, no matter how strong it was at the time. Lifelings were a thing, because the way he micro'd Lings, especially in the early game, just made them seem faster than anyone else's Lings. And when he went into long macro, when he chose to, he was one of those Zerfs that could actually spread creep at a rate most other Zergs couldn't. There was never "the Life build" or anything iike that, because that wasn't what he was. He was someone who could take your strategy and execute it better than you could ever hope to.
life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
I loved watching Life and miss him in the scene, but I have no issues with being banned because of match fixing. It was a really stupid move on his part, but he can't undo it.
He was the star of zerg for a long time, even if he had his ups and downs, and always gave us entertaining matches.
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
He did something very wrong. For me it's less bad than Gatling taking drugs two times and then still able to compete a couple years laters... I think that 2 years bans would have been enough but still, we may have not the same regard toward cheating here and in Korea. Also I didn't thought that this matchfix had any consequence about sc2 in Korea... if it really had this large impact then yes permban...
For INnoVation vs Life, it sure is a hype match than we lose, but we still have INnoVation vs Rogue and INnoVation vs Dark for awesome TvZ matches
The problem of the permban vs comeback discussion is that we don't really know if Life really wants to come back. It would be necessary that he begs pardon and publicly regrets his mistakes. And then it still would be questionable if he would be able to become as good as he was after a break of two years.
On October 10 2017 23:35 fronkschnonk wrote: The problem of the permban vs comeback discussion is that we don't really know if Life really wants to come back. It would be necessary that he begs pardon and publicly regrets his mistakes. And then it still would be questionable if he would be able to become as good as he was after a break of two years.
People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer.
Not to mention, while Life does have some diehard support in the West, he is universally hated in Korea. By the fans, yes, but even moreso by his former compatriots. Every streamer I watched insta-quit the moment they realized they were playing Life. If they won't even play ladder matches against him, what do you think they'll do in a hypothetical tournament match?
Fact is, as far as Starcraft 2 is concerned, Life is dead
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it? Absolutely ridiculous. There's a billionty things to be outraged about, such as the equifax leak plus the C suite selling their stocks before the leak went public. Video games are not on this list of things to be upset about. Life should be allowed to compete again ASAP, the scene needs him. if life wants to throw the finals vs soO then great, soO can get a trophy finally. win/win
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
Gambling isn't inherently illegal, rigging games/results in order to scam people is. That's what Life was part of
And as for Life coming back. I know that in other sports/esports, bans are sometimes only a few years and the players return. But Life is utterly hated amongst koreans. Most of them instantly leave when they meet him on ladder, guys like Dark have even banned people from discussing him on their streams (or so I've heard anyway). From what I've read, no korean players want anything to do with match-fixers.
Maybe in an ideal world, where matchfixing didn't have a history of killing korean esports, where his acts didn't aid the closing of kespa teams/proleague, he wouldn't be as hated in korea and might be welcomed back. But that's never going to happen.
edit: also, "the current zergs aren't too good or consistant" - you seriously think Life was a consistant player? Yes at his peak he was the best zerg of all time, but he had some serious lows as well. Just because you only remember his games when he was good/winning doesn't mean he was like that all the time.
He was, for a considerable amount of time, the best Zerg in the world. He showed that several super aggro early game builds were viable, he demonstrated some really strong late game movement patterns, and utilized late game ling harass better than almost anyone. I wouldn't say that there's a single, sweeping change that he brought about, but instead, he pushed Zerg in different directions and greatly influenced the overall style of play.
He's still a piece of shit for matchfixing though.
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame.
When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck.
The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity.
Just around the time HotS launched I watched Life vs Flash at the final of some high profile tournament. This was the first time I ever saw him and it was great games.
Ever since then he has been an entertaining player to watch. I don't believe he's contributed much in terms of innovating the zerg metagame, there have been much more important zergs than him in SC2s history.
It's just that his games we're really fun to watch, especially ZvT in my opinion. He was finding ways to throw his opponents off which was producing incredibly entertaining games.
Real shame for what he did, LotV would have been much less boring if he was still around.
From my POV Life was the zerg that thaught everyone that speedlings had the potency to drive off pretty much anything on the ground until splash/stim was out. Life was good at punishing terrans leaving a supply lowered for instance, and people got that lings runbies could be a way to defend an agression in the sense that if your runby dealt more damage than the opponent's attack on your base, you'd win.
That being said, I feel the guy was way overhyped, and that people cheating/fixing games shouldn't be looked at with any kind of kindness or nostalgia.
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame.
When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck.
The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity.
I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true.
If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself.
My first ever experience of watching esports/sc2 was a dreamhack with a Life/Taeja finals. I loved Life's games. It's been a while since then and now I watch a lot of tournaments. All these times I've never once really rooted for a Zerg, but somehow whenever Life played I wanted him to win.
Maybe I could analyse it and provide a more objective answer, but I do feel like the above is a proper description how I and many people feel and why Life had such a huge impact on the scene.
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame.
When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck.
The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity.
I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true.
If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself.
I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
A Korean fan recently made a long post about Life on Reddit:
I’m not writing this to persuade anyone to hate Life. If it was true that there was coercion, okay, it can lessen my hatred about Life, but still, it can not be the reason that I should forgive and accept him as an SC2 player. Most criminals have their own personal reasons. But because of Life, his colleagues lost their jobs. All the staff of pro-teams lost their jobs too. As I told you, I want to see their "evidence" with that they insist that Life was threatened, but it won't change my mind. Since the destroyed Korean pro-scene cannot be changed even with it.
........
"I'm just surprised that foreign fans don't understand how Koreans feel about match-fixing. I saw some people translating Korean players' interviews - If they can read the Korean articles, they should have known these things. I guess some of them are fans of the match-fixers, so that's the reason they are filtering out the real responses from Korea."
.........
"So that’s why Korean fans are very decisive when speaking about matchfixers, and not just Life, but everyone else involved. We have a zero-tolerance policy regarding matchfixing. Maybe there are people who try to defend him, but I don’t know anyone who would. If someone were to try and maintain that position other fans would be heavily critical of them."
Mind you, I was simply talking about the Korean attitude toward Life. Regarding Life actually making a comeback, it's virtually impossible. Like I mentioned in an earlier post:
"People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer."
On October 08 2017 23:21 ilililililililiii wrote: Once a criminal serves his time he is allowed back into society. Thus he is given his rights back (sc2)
He is a CRIMINAL but he deserves to come back if he serves his time.
Is it a right? I thought of it more like a privilege and it does not seem that cruel to say, we are trying to build this awesome thing (esports) and he sabotaged it for personal gain. He does not care about the scene, he does not contribute to it, he rather gambles it away (which as an addiction could be seen as a sickness).
It is like releasing a pedophile back into society. Sure he served his time, but it seems reasonable to say, he won't work with kids ever again. Yet I actually think in some societies they are allowed too.
Do we have to take this, do we have to take life back if we want to be a real part of society, if esports should become a right and not a privilege? I don't know, interresting point though little barcode.
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame.
When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck.
The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity.
I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true.
If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself.
I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
A Korean fan recently made a long post about Life on Reddit:
I’m not writing this to persuade anyone to hate Life. If it was true that there was coercion, okay, it can lessen my hatred about Life, but still, it can not be the reason that I should forgive and accept him as an SC2 player. Most criminals have their own personal reasons. But because of Life, his colleagues lost their jobs. All the staff of pro-teams lost their jobs too. As I told you, I want to see their "evidence" with that they insist that Life was threatened, but it won't change my mind. Since the destroyed Korean pro-scene cannot be changed even with it.
........
"I'm just surprised that foreign fans don't understand how Koreans feel about match-fixing. I saw some people translating Korean players' interviews - If they can read the Korean articles, they should have known these things. I guess some of them are fans of the match-fixers, so that's the reason they are filtering out the real responses from Korea."
.........
"So that’s why Korean fans are very decisive when speaking about matchfixers, and not just Life, but everyone else involved. We have a zero-tolerance policy regarding matchfixing. Maybe there are people who try to defend him, but I don’t know anyone who would. If someone were to try and maintain that position other fans would be heavily critical of them."
Mind you, I was simply talking about the Korean attitude toward Life. Regarding Life actually making a comeback, it's virtually impossible. Like I mentioned in an earlier post:
"People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer."
I respect all this. I had read the Olimoley post back when she posted it. I don't think Life should be welcomed back with warm embraces. He would need to face players refusing to play, and competitions banning him. I think Blizzard and whoever may be involved in Korea though should let it go though. Let fringe competitions have him play. Let people he knows get won over by his humility (assuming he has any).
For all I know, Life doesn't have the character to achieve redemption under these circumstances. Or maybe Korean society wouldn't allow it. But I feel the official bans should be considered to have run their course and things should be allowed to play out.
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame.
When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck.
The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity.
I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true.
If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself.
I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
A Korean fan recently made a long post about Life on Reddit:
I’m not writing this to persuade anyone to hate Life. If it was true that there was coercion, okay, it can lessen my hatred about Life, but still, it can not be the reason that I should forgive and accept him as an SC2 player. Most criminals have their own personal reasons. But because of Life, his colleagues lost their jobs. All the staff of pro-teams lost their jobs too. As I told you, I want to see their "evidence" with that they insist that Life was threatened, but it won't change my mind. Since the destroyed Korean pro-scene cannot be changed even with it.
........
"I'm just surprised that foreign fans don't understand how Koreans feel about match-fixing. I saw some people translating Korean players' interviews - If they can read the Korean articles, they should have known these things. I guess some of them are fans of the match-fixers, so that's the reason they are filtering out the real responses from Korea."
.........
"So that’s why Korean fans are very decisive when speaking about matchfixers, and not just Life, but everyone else involved. We have a zero-tolerance policy regarding matchfixing. Maybe there are people who try to defend him, but I don’t know anyone who would. If someone were to try and maintain that position other fans would be heavily critical of them."
Mind you, I was simply talking about the Korean attitude toward Life. Regarding Life actually making a comeback, it's virtually impossible. Like I mentioned in an earlier post:
"People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer."
I respect all this. I had read the Olimoley post back when she posted it. I don't think Life should be welcomed back with warm embraces. He would need to face players refusing to play, and competitions banning him. I think Blizzard and whoever may be involved in Korea though should let it go though. Let fringe competitions have him play. Let people he knows get won over by his humility (assuming he has any).
For all I know, Life doesn't have the character to achieve redemption under these circumstances. Or maybe Korean society wouldn't allow it. But I feel the official bans should be considered to have run their course and things should be allowed to play out.
Come to think of it, I don't think Life has ever made any kind of public statement on his position. Not even one of the pro forma apologies you might expect.
In any case, the point I was getting at was that Life, as a Korean citizen and progamer, would almost certainly be very unwelcome if he tried to make a comeback to the Korean scene. That is a barrier to [re]entry, obviously, but not as large a barrier as KeSPA's permaban (and yes, KeSPA does still legally govern SC2 despite the KeSPA teams disbanding), and the largest barrier of all is Blizzard itself, which has shown every inclination of trying to erase Life from living memory.
And as Wax put it: "While Blizzard hasn’t had to flex its muscle (that we know of), it holds the ultimate power should it choose to exercise it."
Community hate is a "soft" barrier to entry. A sufficiently callous player could ignore the hate from fans/competitors and keep playing. Even if Life was universally loved by the community (hah), the official barriers to entry are the ones that actually provide the muscle that keeps him out, and those barriers aren't coming down regardless of what you or I say here.
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame.
When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck.
The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity.
I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true.
If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself.
I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
A Korean fan recently made a long post about Life on Reddit:
I’m not writing this to persuade anyone to hate Life. If it was true that there was coercion, okay, it can lessen my hatred about Life, but still, it can not be the reason that I should forgive and accept him as an SC2 player. Most criminals have their own personal reasons. But because of Life, his colleagues lost their jobs. All the staff of pro-teams lost their jobs too. As I told you, I want to see their "evidence" with that they insist that Life was threatened, but it won't change my mind. Since the destroyed Korean pro-scene cannot be changed even with it.
........
"I'm just surprised that foreign fans don't understand how Koreans feel about match-fixing. I saw some people translating Korean players' interviews - If they can read the Korean articles, they should have known these things. I guess some of them are fans of the match-fixers, so that's the reason they are filtering out the real responses from Korea."
.........
"So that’s why Korean fans are very decisive when speaking about matchfixers, and not just Life, but everyone else involved. We have a zero-tolerance policy regarding matchfixing. Maybe there are people who try to defend him, but I don’t know anyone who would. If someone were to try and maintain that position other fans would be heavily critical of them."
Mind you, I was simply talking about the Korean attitude toward Life. Regarding Life actually making a comeback, it's virtually impossible. Like I mentioned in an earlier post:
"People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer."
I respect all this. I had read the Olimoley post back when she posted it. I don't think Life should be welcomed back with warm embraces. He would need to face players refusing to play, and competitions banning him. I think Blizzard and whoever may be involved in Korea though should let it go though. Let fringe competitions have him play. Let people he knows get won over by his humility (assuming he has any).
For all I know, Life doesn't have the character to achieve redemption under these circumstances. Or maybe Korean society wouldn't allow it. But I feel the official bans should be considered to have run their course and things should be allowed to play out.
Come to think of it, I don't think Life has ever made any kind of public statement on his position. Not even one of the pro forma apologies you might expect.
In any case, the point I was getting at was that Life, as a Korean citizen and progamer, would almost certainly be very unwelcome if he tried to make a comeback to the Korean scene. That is a barrier to [re]entry, obviously, but not as large a barrier as KeSPA's permaban (and yes, KeSPA does still legally govern SC2 despite the KeSPA teams disbanding), and the largest barrier of all is Blizzard itself, which has shown every inclination of trying to erase Life from living memory.
And as Wax put it: "While Blizzard hasn’t had to flex its muscle (that we know of), it holds the ultimate power should it choose to exercise it."
Community hate is a "soft" barrier to entry. A sufficiently callous player could ignore the hate from fans/competitors and keep playing. Even if Life was universally loved by the community (hah), the official barriers to entry are the ones that actually provide the muscle that keeps him out, and those barriers aren't coming down regardless of what you or I say here.
All the better reason to have an interview. Has our lack of response from Life been Life's choice? We can't know until he is interviewed by someone impartial. I would like to hear from him.
Obviously, yes, Life coming back would involve Blizzard letting it happen. That's the point of the thread (in essence, if not literally). Blizzard should let it happen. Bans don't need to be permanent. Redemption is the best story line. Maybe Life gives it a go and just gets manner muled into obscurity. Maybe Life makes an improbable comeback and becomes a beloved, if flawed, figure. The scene would benefit from this whole process.
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame.
When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck.
The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity.
I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true.
If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself.
I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
A Korean fan recently made a long post about Life on Reddit:
I’m not writing this to persuade anyone to hate Life. If it was true that there was coercion, okay, it can lessen my hatred about Life, but still, it can not be the reason that I should forgive and accept him as an SC2 player. Most criminals have their own personal reasons. But because of Life, his colleagues lost their jobs. All the staff of pro-teams lost their jobs too. As I told you, I want to see their "evidence" with that they insist that Life was threatened, but it won't change my mind. Since the destroyed Korean pro-scene cannot be changed even with it.
........
"I'm just surprised that foreign fans don't understand how Koreans feel about match-fixing. I saw some people translating Korean players' interviews - If they can read the Korean articles, they should have known these things. I guess some of them are fans of the match-fixers, so that's the reason they are filtering out the real responses from Korea."
.........
"So that’s why Korean fans are very decisive when speaking about matchfixers, and not just Life, but everyone else involved. We have a zero-tolerance policy regarding matchfixing. Maybe there are people who try to defend him, but I don’t know anyone who would. If someone were to try and maintain that position other fans would be heavily critical of them."
Mind you, I was simply talking about the Korean attitude toward Life. Regarding Life actually making a comeback, it's virtually impossible. Like I mentioned in an earlier post:
"People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer."
I respect all this. I had read the Olimoley post back when she posted it. I don't think Life should be welcomed back with warm embraces. He would need to face players refusing to play, and competitions banning him. I think Blizzard and whoever may be involved in Korea though should let it go though. Let fringe competitions have him play. Let people he knows get won over by his humility (assuming he has any).
For all I know, Life doesn't have the character to achieve redemption under these circumstances. Or maybe Korean society wouldn't allow it. But I feel the official bans should be considered to have run their course and things should be allowed to play out.
Come to think of it, I don't think Life has ever made any kind of public statement on his position. Not even one of the pro forma apologies you might expect.
In any case, the point I was getting at was that Life, as a Korean citizen and progamer, would almost certainly be very unwelcome if he tried to make a comeback to the Korean scene. That is a barrier to [re]entry, obviously, but not as large a barrier as KeSPA's permaban (and yes, KeSPA does still legally govern SC2 despite the KeSPA teams disbanding), and the largest barrier of all is Blizzard itself, which has shown every inclination of trying to erase Life from living memory.
And as Wax put it: "While Blizzard hasn’t had to flex its muscle (that we know of), it holds the ultimate power should it choose to exercise it."
Community hate is a "soft" barrier to entry. A sufficiently callous player could ignore the hate from fans/competitors and keep playing. Even if Life was universally loved by the community (hah), the official barriers to entry are the ones that actually provide the muscle that keeps him out, and those barriers aren't coming down regardless of what you or I say here.
All the better reason to have an interview. Has our lack of response from Life been Life's choice? We can't know until he is interviewed by someone impartial. I would like to hear from him.
Obviously, yes, Life coming back would involve Blizzard letting it happen. That's the point of the thread (in essence, if not literally). Blizzard should let it happen. Bans don't need to be permanent. Redemption is the best story line. Maybe Life gives it a go and just gets manner muled into obscurity. Maybe Life makes an improbable comeback and becomes a beloved, if flawed, figure. The scene would benefit from this whole process.
I mean, that's Blizzard's decision. Feel free to write a petition or something. Though it would be a tough sell even if the fans were united behind it instead of divided into highly polarized camps the way they actually are.
But judging by the actions they've taken so far, like removing Life's poster from the Hall of Honor, or erasing his name from the Blizzcon trophy, I'm guessing that Blizzard will continue giving Life the cold shoulder.
Life's play is just so entertaining. I remember his run on Blizzcon, what a story that was. A time where Zerg was at it's lowest. He raised above everyone else. I recall Tasteless asked the audience who was going to win before Taeja vs Life match, and the crowd cheers for Life! Even though Taeja was considered fan's favorite and had been much more involved in international scene. It's a prove that everyone enjoys watching Life's games.
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame.
When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck.
The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity.
I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true.
If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself.
I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
A Korean fan recently made a long post about Life on Reddit:
I’m not writing this to persuade anyone to hate Life. If it was true that there was coercion, okay, it can lessen my hatred about Life, but still, it can not be the reason that I should forgive and accept him as an SC2 player. Most criminals have their own personal reasons. But because of Life, his colleagues lost their jobs. All the staff of pro-teams lost their jobs too. As I told you, I want to see their "evidence" with that they insist that Life was threatened, but it won't change my mind. Since the destroyed Korean pro-scene cannot be changed even with it.
........
"I'm just surprised that foreign fans don't understand how Koreans feel about match-fixing. I saw some people translating Korean players' interviews - If they can read the Korean articles, they should have known these things. I guess some of them are fans of the match-fixers, so that's the reason they are filtering out the real responses from Korea."
.........
"So that’s why Korean fans are very decisive when speaking about matchfixers, and not just Life, but everyone else involved. We have a zero-tolerance policy regarding matchfixing. Maybe there are people who try to defend him, but I don’t know anyone who would. If someone were to try and maintain that position other fans would be heavily critical of them."
Mind you, I was simply talking about the Korean attitude toward Life. Regarding Life actually making a comeback, it's virtually impossible. Like I mentioned in an earlier post:
"People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer."
I respect all this. I had read the Olimoley post back when she posted it. I don't think Life should be welcomed back with warm embraces. He would need to face players refusing to play, and competitions banning him. I think Blizzard and whoever may be involved in Korea though should let it go though. Let fringe competitions have him play. Let people he knows get won over by his humility (assuming he has any).
For all I know, Life doesn't have the character to achieve redemption under these circumstances. Or maybe Korean society wouldn't allow it. But I feel the official bans should be considered to have run their course and things should be allowed to play out.
Come to think of it, I don't think Life has ever made any kind of public statement on his position. Not even one of the pro forma apologies you might expect.
In any case, the point I was getting at was that Life, as a Korean citizen and progamer, would almost certainly be very unwelcome if he tried to make a comeback to the Korean scene. That is a barrier to [re]entry, obviously, but not as large a barrier as KeSPA's permaban (and yes, KeSPA does still legally govern SC2 despite the KeSPA teams disbanding), and the largest barrier of all is Blizzard itself, which has shown every inclination of trying to erase Life from living memory.
And as Wax put it: "While Blizzard hasn’t had to flex its muscle (that we know of), it holds the ultimate power should it choose to exercise it."
Community hate is a "soft" barrier to entry. A sufficiently callous player could ignore the hate from fans/competitors and keep playing. Even if Life was universally loved by the community (hah), the official barriers to entry are the ones that actually provide the muscle that keeps him out, and those barriers aren't coming down regardless of what you or I say here.
All the better reason to have an interview. Has our lack of response from Life been Life's choice? We can't know until he is interviewed by someone impartial. I would like to hear from him.
Obviously, yes, Life coming back would involve Blizzard letting it happen. That's the point of the thread (in essence, if not literally). Blizzard should let it happen. Bans don't need to be permanent. Redemption is the best story line. Maybe Life gives it a go and just gets manner muled into obscurity. Maybe Life makes an improbable comeback and becomes a beloved, if flawed, figure. The scene would benefit from this whole process.
I mean, that's Blizzard's decision. Feel free to write a petition or something. Though it would be a tough sell even if the fans were united behind it instead of divided into highly polarized camps the way they actually are.
But judging by the actions they've taken so far, like removing Life's poster from the Hall of Honor, or erasing his name from the Blizzcon trophy, I'm guessing that Blizzard will continue giving Life the cold shoulder.
You're probably right. I'm not holding my breath. Maybe they'll consider threads like this a sort of petition. I think continuing to ban him is a net loss for the community. I get others don't think so though.
And I'm not in the "zergs suck now" camp. Life's absence has really made it easy for players like dark to make a case as best zerg, And Dark has done it in his own unique way. Not to mention how soO has been amazing, and Rogue has rekt everybody for months. I don't pine for Life out of a feeling that zergs are underrepresented. I am arguing on his behalf because I think (1) he was a unique player we could use back in the scene to really have a vital scene and (2) I believe in limited punishments and redemptions of those who have erred.
On October 11 2017 09:43 pvsnp wrote: I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
Pls stop that assumption. It's just not true. There are reasons besides of being "diehard" (what even? fans?) for a more forgiving stance on matchfixer's case. I'm not "defending" Life. He was acting fundamentally wrong. But I think in general that people should have second chances. There should be at least a formal possibility of redemption. This wouldn't be an easy way and it would be far from certain if it would work out or if Life (or others) would even give it a try.
I totally disagree with the korean attitude to not even talk to matchfixers, to dump down even a very good friend because of "that's evil!". To not even try to understand under which circumstances the matchfixing happened, and therefore never explore the thought- and emotional process a matchfixer goes through. The result is that nobody knows anything for real about matchfixing until someone himself gets into the situation. The korean way of handling the matchfixing problem makes it impossible to learn anything from the scandal - neither for individuals to be prepared if an "opportunity" arises nor for society to reflect on it's mistakes that led to a situation that made matchfixing attractive/possible.
I don't say that matchfixers should be welcomed back with fanfares or even be welcomed at all. But they should have the chance to express their remorse, to publicly pay back to the community (perhaps by funding a anonymus matchfixer helpline or donating major parts of price money to the scene or stuff like that), to tell their story and to perform again. They still would've to deal with the hate, with distrust and so on. I think the scene would benefit from this in the long run. Is it likely that someone really goes this path? Probably not, but to categorically reject the mere possibilty is a sign of coldness in our society and of incapacity of the scene to really fathom a problem even if it hurts and confronts it with it's own faults.
Also for the "matchfixing destroyed proleague"-argument: we'll never know that for sure. Obviously it contributed to the end of proleague but to what extent is a matter of speculation - especially considering how emotional everybody is about the matchfixing.
One of the most frustrating things is that he was so young, so successful in the game and had a wealth of tournament wins and prize money and still match fixed. It's as bemusing as it is abhorent.
On October 11 2017 09:43 pvsnp wrote: I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
Pls stop that assumption. It's just not true. There are reasons besides of being "diehard" (what even? fans?) for a more forgiving stance on matchfixer's case. I'm not "defending" Life. He was acting fundamentally wrong. But I think in general that people should have second chances. There should be at least a formal possibility of redemption. This wouldn't be an easy way and it would be far from certain if it would work out or if Life (or others) would even give it a try.
I totally disagree with the korean attitude to not even talk to matchfixers, to dump down even a very good friend because of "that's evil!". To not even try to understand under which circumstances the matchfixing happened, and therefore never explore the thought- and emotional process a matchfixer goes through. The result is that nobody knows anything for real about matchfixing until someone himself gets into the situation. The korean way of handling the matchfixing problem makes it impossible to learn anything from the scandal - neither for individuals to be prepared if an "opportunity" arises nor for society to reflect on it's mistakes that led to a situation that made matchfixing attractive/possible.
I don't say that matchfixers should be welcomed back with fanfares or even be welcomed at all. But they should have the chance to express their remorse, to publicly pay back to the community (perhaps by funding a anonymus matchfixer helpline or donating major parts of price money to the scene or stuff like that), to tell their story and to perform again. They still would've to deal with the hate, with distrust and so on. I think the scene would benefit from this in the long run. Is it likely that someone really goes this path? Probably not, but to categorically reject the mere possibilty is a sign of coldness in our society and of incapacity of the scene to really fathom a problem even if it hurts and confronts it with it's own faults.
Also for the "matchfixing destroyed proleague"-argument: we'll never know that for sure. Obviously it contributed to the end of proleague but to what extent is a matter of speculation - especially considering how emotional everybody is about the matchfixing.
If a matchfixer has remorse they should just leave the scene and move on with their life. I just don't understand this notion that they somehow must stay connected with the scene. It's just a videogame community, there are other things for them to do with their lives. And any such attempt is almost always an overture to new attempts to monetize their presence in the community, either by performing, contracts or streaming.
I remember MLG Dallas 2012 and following Life's journey through the tournament, not being able to help but scribble notes and grind on ladder like crazy after the ZvZ finals against Leenock. Every game was a huge inspiration, I finally figured that, ya know, it's fine to have massive losses now and then, even if you can't find something positive to take from it in the moment it's a natural thing that happens and it's fine as long as you do your best about it. Something I'd remember and forget over and over through the years, of course.
For a couple of weeks after that tournament I didn't have any ladder anxiety, or much anxiety at all for that matter. Not knowing what I was going to do while everyone else was starting college after the summer didn't matter as much, family issues didn't matter as much, I just wanted to keep playing and learning. It was one of those series that changed my life in a weird and positive way that without a doubt had a bigger butterfly effect than I could ever wrap my mind around. I'm pretty sure that series is also what got me to start regularly watching GSL (believe it or not nobody really watched it in my town).
And that's just one series, just how it affected me during a brief period of time, and one that I barely remember by now either. It solidified my aggressive style of play that I would go on to play for three to four more years and would get me to finish a season above Bronze league without thinking it was by complete coincidence. It was one of a few series around that time that got me to realize how much faster I could play during Ling wars, and overall. That was also a while before he skyrocketed in my eyes around 2014 and 2015 and really started to affect the players and the game.
2012 was a pretty big year for me and honestly not because of me graduating high school early or paying 100% of my bills on my own, but because of me watching more games of players like MC, MMA, Life, Bomber and Scarlett.
--
Sigh, I wanted to make a much longer post that might be more on topic for everyone, but it just isn't... reading well, I guess. Maybe it's just me today, hopefully this thread doesn't get closed and I can make something more full since this is a topic and discussion I'm passionate about. And there are always a lot of questions to think about, a lot of things to talk about besides a menagerie of memories.
On October 11 2017 20:21 blunderfulguy wrote: Sigh, I wanted to make a much longer post that might be more on topic for everyone, but it just isn't... reading well, I guess. Maybe it's just me today, hopefully this thread doesn't get closed and I can make something more full since this is a topic and discussion I'm passionate about. And there are always a lot of questions to think about, a lot of things to talk about besides a menagerie of memories.
I look forward to read more about it. It was a little but inspirational read for me
On October 11 2017 09:43 pvsnp wrote: I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
Pls stop that assumption. It's just not true. There are reasons besides of being "diehard" (what even? fans?) for a more forgiving stance on matchfixer's case. I'm not "defending" Life. He was acting fundamentally wrong. But I think in general that people should have second chances. There should be at least a formal possibility of redemption. This wouldn't be an easy way and it would be far from certain if it would work out or if Life (or others) would even give it a try.
I totally disagree with the korean attitude to not even talk to matchfixers, to dump down even a very good friend because of "that's evil!". To not even try to understand under which circumstances the matchfixing happened, and therefore never explore the thought- and emotional process a matchfixer goes through. The result is that nobody knows anything for real about matchfixing until someone himself gets into the situation. The korean way of handling the matchfixing problem makes it impossible to learn anything from the scandal - neither for individuals to be prepared if an "opportunity" arises nor for society to reflect on it's mistakes that led to a situation that made matchfixing attractive/possible.
I don't say that matchfixers should be welcomed back with fanfares or even be welcomed at all. But they should have the chance to express their remorse, to publicly pay back to the community (perhaps by funding a anonymus matchfixer helpline or donating major parts of price money to the scene or stuff like that), to tell their story and to perform again. They still would've to deal with the hate, with distrust and so on. I think the scene would benefit from this in the long run. Is it likely that someone really goes this path? Probably not, but to categorically reject the mere possibilty is a sign of coldness in our society and of incapacity of the scene to really fathom a problem even if it hurts and confronts it with it's own faults.
Also for the "matchfixing destroyed proleague"-argument: we'll never know that for sure. Obviously it contributed to the end of proleague but to what extent is a matter of speculation - especially considering how emotional everybody is about the matchfixing.
If a matchfixer has remorse they should just leave the scene and move on with their life. I just don't understand this notion that they somehow must stay connected with the scene. It's just a videogame community, there are other things for them to do with their lives. And any such attempt is almost always an overture to new attempts to monetize their presence in the community, either by performing, contracts or streaming.
It wasn't my point to do everything possible to make matchfixers come back. I just want that it is possible. Also I don't think that leaving the scene makes you more or less remorseful than otherwise. In my eyes being remorseful means confronting yourself with the consequences but not just fleeing. The scene won't benefit from matchfixers never looking back again, but it could gain really thankful and loyal players, if it were able to accept someone being serious about redemption. And if "it's just a videogame community" why is it so important to reject matchfixers with full force in the first place? Probably because it's not "just a videogame community" to many of us.
One of the most frustrating things is that he was so young, so successful in the game and had a wealth of tournament wins and prize money and still match fixed. It's as bemusing as it is abhorent.
if im right, Life had an addiction, gambling. And he gambled away most, if not all of his earnings. I guess the mob used that against him.. I'm not sure but he might be completely broke.
If a matchfixer has remorse they should just leave the scene and move on with their life. I just don't understand this notion that they somehow must stay connected with the scene. It's just a videogame community, there are other things for them to do with their lives. And any such attempt is almost always an overture to new attempts to monetize their presence in the community, either by performing, contracts or streaming.
[/b]
he got sentenced for 18 monts, with a 3 years trial period. After that 3 years trial is over, i think he should have given the chance for a return. He was also arrested for months before, so that 3 years will be close to 4. That's enough punishment. Obviously i would force him to do some community service, check on a psychologist every week or month with his addiction etc. There could be a compromise.
Life was the greatest instinctual player of all time. Pure quick twitch decision making. The only player that could upset anyone in the world at any time ... if he cared enough. I'm sure this is the same cerebral skill led to his addiction to gambling and poor life choices. Same goes for most savants.
To me he was the greatest ever skill wise. His last Blizzcon was the proof. No one expected him to make it to the Finals. Everyone always counted him out and expected other players to hold the trophy. But most knew, that when he turned on his fire, "Life finds a way." The epitome of this was his defeat of Innovation who was favored to win it all.
Unfortunately his personal addictions bleed over into hurting the SC2 community. And as most online witch hunts go, forgiveness is not an option. Not saying that he deserves to be let back into the community, just that people are too quick to judge others.
I think this hurts more than most, because he inspired so many to join the community. My personal awakening into the SC2 world was Maru vs. Life IEM 2015 Taipei Grand Final. I am an old school non competitive (Blood Bath/Hunters/BGH) fan of Starcraft before and after Brood War. Later I enjoyed a little SC2. But I'm only here posting and watching every competition because of Life. It hurts the community because most would love to have the skill he had, and yet he threw it all away. I feel anger, but mostly I feel pity for someone who had it all, and then had it all taken away over a stupid insignificant couple of matches.
I'm still here because of Life ... and now Neeb. Without him there'd be 1 less fan watching the dwindling viewer counts of this wonderful game. Though if I'm honest, me getting into the SC2 scene is probably a drop in the bucket compared to those who left after he burned the momentum of 2015. Yet, Life inspired many others to watch SC2 because of how exciting he played. So overall who knows, he might've still had a positive impact on the game, despite his downfall. The inventiveness, the micro skill, the pure unpredictability ... Zerg is a little more boring without him.
Anyways. Still love the SC2 community, even if it's mostly as a spectator.
On October 11 2017 22:34 fronkschnonk wrote: And if "it's just a videogame community" why is it so important to reject matchfixers with full force in the first place? Probably because it's not "just a videogame community" to many of us.
I wasn't trying to denigrate SC2.
I'm thinking of the following idea: you engage in some moral transgression and you would be ostracized from the community to the point of it seriously affecting your quality of life. So, e.g. in some cases during the cold war if you were discovered to be a communist you would be blacklisted from every realistic avenue of employment and would languish in poverty. But because the SC2 community is relatively small and insulated (i.e. just a videogame community) you can actually just detach yourself from it and suffer virtually nothing except for having to give up this one thing. Nobody loves SC2 to the point that if they can't play it they would become depressed, pitiful people. (and you can play video games anonymously anyway)
The reason people like Savior kept being part of the scene is because they are greedy and lazy and want their easy life of streaming video games for money to continue. It has nothing to do with remorse, everything with a certain type of narcissism. For fans to enable it is really shortsighted.
In my opinion, these players that committed what is essentially fraud, knowing it had the potential to blow up the scene and destroy competitive integrity and give more power to mobsters, should have no sympathy and should never be forgiven. They are all young and to have become so successful must have high intelligence, so they can go to school or have normal jobs and live happy fulfilling lives. Just not while connected to the one small-ish community that they managed to basically act abusive towards.
On October 11 2017 22:34 fronkschnonk wrote: And if "it's just a videogame community" why is it so important to reject matchfixers with full force in the first place? Probably because it's not "just a videogame community" to many of us.
I wasn't trying to denigrate SC2.
I'm thinking of the following idea: you engage in some moral transgression and you would be ostracized from the community to the point of it seriously affecting your quality of life. So, e.g. in some cases during the cold war if you were discovered to be a communist you would be blacklisted from every realistic avenue of employment and would languish in poverty. But because the SC2 community is relatively small and insulated (i.e. just a videogame community) you can actually just detach yourself from it and suffer virtually nothing except for having to give up this one thing. Nobody loves SC2 to the point that if they can't play it they would become depressed, pitiful people. (and you can play video games anonymously anyway)
The reason people like Savior kept being part of the scene is because they are greedy and lazy and want their easy life of streaming video games for money to continue. It has nothing to do with remorse, everything with a certain type of narcissism. For fans to enable it is really shortsighted.
In my opinion, these players that committed what is essentially fraud, knowing it had the potential to blow up the scene and destroy competitive integrity and give more power to mobsters, should have no sympathy and should never be forgiven. They are all young and to have become so successful must have high intelligence, so they can go to school or have normal jobs and live happy fulfilling lives. Just not while connected to the one small-ish community that they managed to basically act abusive towards.
And you don't even consider the possibility of a matchfixer being actually remorseful and feeling bound to give something back to the scene which he betrayed? Perhaps he would even accept the pain of being hated as rightful punishment that he has to bear as a consequence of his actions. Ofcourse this is not very likely but just because others - like savior - didn't show a small sign of sorrow, it isn't impossible that someone actually could feel like that. Also how could someone ever be able to show a desire to redeem himself when there is no possible way - and may it be an unlikely one - to achieve such a thing? You can judge matchfixers for being greedy and lazy and rightfully so, but there is a taste of bitterness to me because we'll never know, if some (or just one) of them would've humbled himself for the good of the community if the opportunity would've been existent.
I'm not trying to make a case for Life here. Probably my vision or just my moral argumentation can only be valid if he or another matchfixer publicly makes the first step. But I think it wouldn't hurt to communicate that such a step wouldn't be absoluty condemned to be unsuccessful.
I deeply disagree on your point that being great at starcraft means that you must have high intelligence. It's no rocket science. And there are so many young people - even intelligent ones - who don't think about consequences. I can understand the hate that this causes but I can't understand why it is so important that the hatred gets satisfied.
On October 09 2017 23:28 Grumbels wrote: I'm in favor of a zero tolerance policy. I don't really understand why, for every famous person that abuses their power, there are legions of people that want to put that person back into power.
In my opinion...
If I'm an entrepeneur and I defraud the state, I should no longer have any sort of access to government loans and so on. Instead I can just become an employee somewhere. If I'm a politician and I'm caught solliciting bribes, I should be banned from all government functions and perhaps go work in the private sector. If I'm an athlete and I'm caught using doping and engaging in matchfixing I should just be eliminated from professional competition. If I really enjoy what I'm doing I can continue as an amateur in my spare time, while otherwise pursuing a career in some other place.
None of these are personal foibles or sins. If I'm an athlete and I'm caught using recreational drugs or engaging in illegal gambling, then this should in my view not be considered a breach of professional ethics. Perhaps legally my employer has a right to fire me based on some contract I signed, but I shouldn't be prevented from seeking employment within the same industry. But if I commit a very serious breach of professional ethics, like matchfixing for an athlete, or fraudulent behavior for a banker, then I should be seen as toxic and should be barred from the sector, at least for a handful of years and contingent on reforming as a person.
In all of these scenarios I would be something of a role model, these are positions with a lot of visibility where I can gain a lot of wealth or power. The standards should be even higher there. Furthermore, I can always find employment elsewhere.
I understand why athletes would be trying to get away with it, they probably like getting to play games for a living and being adored by many. And fans might consider these players talented and charismatic and want to see them play, and are invested in their careers. And for organizers they might be big draws with existing fan bases. But it's still not right.
A cashier who steals from a cash register in the supermarket in a local town once can be blacklisted from all realistic avenues of employment, and no one cares while that person languishes in poverty. But if you get to be on television you can commit any crime, no matter how serious, and you will be rehabilitated and forgiven.
Life is still young, he can just go to university and become an obscure student. That's what he deserves, and it's not a bad fate. Same for Savior. They should just move on and accept their losses. Any continuing presence in the community is a signal to amoral people everywhere that they can get away with it, and that if you're famous or powerful enough professional standards don't apply to you.
On October 08 2017 18:55 nkr wrote: Doesn't matter how much impact you have when you are the main man behind a scene-ruining moneygrab.
2010 joined user speaks for the entire BW community... lmfao
Nah, sAviOr's ZvT in his prime is the stuff of legend, those matches still impress no matter how many times I rewatch them, and I didn't even main Zerg myself.
Yeah but how many digits does your slashdot ID have?
Really wish Life could play sc2 again. There aren't really any amazing zergs too root for besides soo, dark, snute, tlo & soo. These are probably the best 5 zergs that you root for but then when you think about Life...he tops them all. He was 18, he was stupid. Forget the match scandel, he paid his crime.
On October 14 2017 13:21 SidianTheBard wrote: Really wish Life could play sc2 again. There aren't really any amazing zergs too root for besides soo, dark, snute, tlo & soo. These are probably the best 5 zergs that you root for but then when you think about Life...he tops them all. He was 18, he was stupid. Forget the match scandel, he paid his crime.
Life...we want him back!
A part of me does want to see his playstyle again. But then reallistically speaking he wouldn't necessarily be as successful/entertaining in LOTV compared to HOTS. The debate whether he should have been punished so hard is a different question.
On October 14 2017 13:21 SidianTheBard wrote: Really wish Life could play sc2 again. There aren't really any amazing zergs too root for besides soo, dark, snute, tlo & soo. These are probably the best 5 zergs that you root for but then when you think about Life...he tops them all. He was 18, he was stupid. Forget the match scandel, he paid his crime.
Life...we want him back!
A part of me does want to see his playstyle again. But then reallistically speaking he wouldn't necessarily be as successful/entertaining in LOTV compared to HOTS. The debate whether he should have been punished so hard is a different question.
Nah. People who were great in HotS are just as good in LotV. But even if he will be let to play sc2 again, he was outside of the community for far too long. I'm not sure if he will be ever able to deliver that performance he used to.
For me its 2011-2014 were great times and 2015 as okay for the first half but then got stale and dull by the end
I'm glad I'm not the only one who really enjoyed 2014. There were some really awesome games that year. Sure it had its share of boring swarmhost turtle games but it also had some innovative play to try to figure stuff out - Not to mention Flash finally got his win at IEM Toronto which was great
2011 and 2013 were the best for similar reasons, absurd amounts of content and a chaotic hierarchy of players that yielded many surprising upsets. The game was at its most entertaining in those two years as well imo. As good as 2013 was, 2011 WoL TvZ and TvT cannot be touched.
For me its 2011-2014 were great times and 2015 as okay for the first half but then got stale and dull by the end
I'm glad I'm not the only one who really enjoyed 2014. There were some really awesome games that year. Sure it had its share of boring swarmhost turtle games but it also had some innovative play to try to figure stuff out - Not to mention Flash finally got his win at IEM Toronto which was great
Absolutely. People always hone in on the negatives too much. 2014 had at least 3 of the greatest sc2 tournaments I've ever seen in IEM Cologne, IEM Katowice, and maybe even the greatest of them all in the 2014 Blizzcon which was just amazing.
I also consider 2014 to be the first real season of proleague where everyone was firmly rooted with no expansion/game transitions to screw things up.
EPT
Every single year at some point he came back to show that he was still the #1 Zerg.
