On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame.
When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck.
The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity.
I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true.
If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself.
I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
A Korean fan recently made a long post about Life on Reddit:
I’m not writing this to persuade anyone to hate Life. If it was true that there was coercion, okay, it can lessen my hatred about Life, but still, it can not be the reason that I should forgive and accept him as an SC2 player. Most criminals have their own personal reasons. But because of Life, his colleagues lost their jobs. All the staff of pro-teams lost their jobs too. As I told you, I want to see their "evidence" with that they insist that Life was threatened, but it won't change my mind. Since the destroyed Korean pro-scene cannot be changed even with it.
........
"I'm just surprised that foreign fans don't understand how Koreans feel about match-fixing. I saw some people translating Korean players' interviews - If they can read the Korean articles, they should have known these things. I guess some of them are fans of the match-fixers, so that's the reason they are filtering out the real responses from Korea."
.........
"So that’s why Korean fans are very decisive when speaking about matchfixers, and not just Life, but everyone else involved. We have a zero-tolerance policy regarding matchfixing. Maybe there are people who try to defend him, but I don’t know anyone who would. If someone were to try and maintain that position other fans would be heavily critical of them."
Mind you, I was simply talking about the Korean attitude toward Life. Regarding Life actually making a comeback, it's virtually impossible. Like I mentioned in an earlier post:
"People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer."
I respect all this. I had read the Olimoley post back when she posted it. I don't think Life should be welcomed back with warm embraces. He would need to face players refusing to play, and competitions banning him. I think Blizzard and whoever may be involved in Korea though should let it go though. Let fringe competitions have him play. Let people he knows get won over by his humility (assuming he has any).
For all I know, Life doesn't have the character to achieve redemption under these circumstances. Or maybe Korean society wouldn't allow it. But I feel the official bans should be considered to have run their course and things should be allowed to play out.
Come to think of it, I don't think Life has ever made any kind of public statement on his position. Not even one of the pro forma apologies you might expect.
In any case, the point I was getting at was that Life, as a Korean citizen and progamer, would almost certainly be very unwelcome if he tried to make a comeback to the Korean scene. That is a barrier to [re]entry, obviously, but not as large a barrier as KeSPA's permaban (and yes, KeSPA does still legally govern SC2 despite the KeSPA teams disbanding), and the largest barrier of all is Blizzard itself, which has shown every inclination of trying to erase Life from living memory.
And as Wax put it: "While Blizzard hasn’t had to flex its muscle (that we know of), it holds the ultimate power should it choose to exercise it."
Community hate is a "soft" barrier to entry. A sufficiently callous player could ignore the hate from fans/competitors and keep playing. Even if Life was universally loved by the community (hah), the official barriers to entry are the ones that actually provide the muscle that keeps him out, and those barriers aren't coming down regardless of what you or I say here.
All the better reason to have an interview. Has our lack of response from Life been Life's choice? We can't know until he is interviewed by someone impartial. I would like to hear from him.
Obviously, yes, Life coming back would involve Blizzard letting it happen. That's the point of the thread (in essence, if not literally). Blizzard should let it happen. Bans don't need to be permanent. Redemption is the best story line. Maybe Life gives it a go and just gets manner muled into obscurity. Maybe Life makes an improbable comeback and becomes a beloved, if flawed, figure. The scene would benefit from this whole process.
On October 10 2017 07:41 fishjie wrote: life vs innovation would've been hype. the current zergs aren't too good or consistent. so sad, life did nothing wrong, its stupid and dumb for gambling to be illegal, and even dumber to throw someone in jail for losing a freaking video game, the least important thing in the world, on purpose. lets keep actual criminals in jail mmmkay
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame.
When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck.
The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity.
I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true.
If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself.
I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
A Korean fan recently made a long post about Life on Reddit:
I’m not writing this to persuade anyone to hate Life. If it was true that there was coercion, okay, it can lessen my hatred about Life, but still, it can not be the reason that I should forgive and accept him as an SC2 player. Most criminals have their own personal reasons. But because of Life, his colleagues lost their jobs. All the staff of pro-teams lost their jobs too. As I told you, I want to see their "evidence" with that they insist that Life was threatened, but it won't change my mind. Since the destroyed Korean pro-scene cannot be changed even with it.
........
"I'm just surprised that foreign fans don't understand how Koreans feel about match-fixing. I saw some people translating Korean players' interviews - If they can read the Korean articles, they should have known these things. I guess some of them are fans of the match-fixers, so that's the reason they are filtering out the real responses from Korea."
.........
"So that’s why Korean fans are very decisive when speaking about matchfixers, and not just Life, but everyone else involved. We have a zero-tolerance policy regarding matchfixing. Maybe there are people who try to defend him, but I don’t know anyone who would. If someone were to try and maintain that position other fans would be heavily critical of them."
Mind you, I was simply talking about the Korean attitude toward Life. Regarding Life actually making a comeback, it's virtually impossible. Like I mentioned in an earlier post:
"People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer."
I respect all this. I had read the Olimoley post back when she posted it. I don't think Life should be welcomed back with warm embraces. He would need to face players refusing to play, and competitions banning him. I think Blizzard and whoever may be involved in Korea though should let it go though. Let fringe competitions have him play. Let people he knows get won over by his humility (assuming he has any).
For all I know, Life doesn't have the character to achieve redemption under these circumstances. Or maybe Korean society wouldn't allow it. But I feel the official bans should be considered to have run their course and things should be allowed to play out.
Come to think of it, I don't think Life has ever made any kind of public statement on his position. Not even one of the pro forma apologies you might expect.
In any case, the point I was getting at was that Life, as a Korean citizen and progamer, would almost certainly be very unwelcome if he tried to make a comeback to the Korean scene. That is a barrier to [re]entry, obviously, but not as large a barrier as KeSPA's permaban (and yes, KeSPA does still legally govern SC2 despite the KeSPA teams disbanding), and the largest barrier of all is Blizzard itself, which has shown every inclination of trying to erase Life from living memory.
And as Wax put it: "While Blizzard hasn’t had to flex its muscle (that we know of), it holds the ultimate power should it choose to exercise it."
Community hate is a "soft" barrier to entry. A sufficiently callous player could ignore the hate from fans/competitors and keep playing. Even if Life was universally loved by the community (hah), the official barriers to entry are the ones that actually provide the muscle that keeps him out, and those barriers aren't coming down regardless of what you or I say here.
All the better reason to have an interview. Has our lack of response from Life been Life's choice? We can't know until he is interviewed by someone impartial. I would like to hear from him.
Obviously, yes, Life coming back would involve Blizzard letting it happen. That's the point of the thread (in essence, if not literally). Blizzard should let it happen. Bans don't need to be permanent. Redemption is the best story line. Maybe Life gives it a go and just gets manner muled into obscurity. Maybe Life makes an improbable comeback and becomes a beloved, if flawed, figure. The scene would benefit from this whole process.
I mean, that's Blizzard's decision. Feel free to write a petition or something. Though it would be a tough sell even if the fans were united behind it instead of divided into highly polarized camps the way they actually are.
But judging by the actions they've taken so far, like removing Life's poster from the Hall of Honor, or erasing his name from the Blizzcon trophy, I'm guessing that Blizzard will continue giving Life the cold shoulder.
Life's play is just so entertaining. I remember his run on Blizzcon, what a story that was. A time where Zerg was at it's lowest. He raised above everyone else. I recall Tasteless asked the audience who was going to win before Taeja vs Life match, and the crowd cheers for Life! Even though Taeja was considered fan's favorite and had been much more involved in international scene. It's a prove that everyone enjoys watching Life's games.
No, he definitely did something wrong. Let's not sugarcoat that. You can have a nuanced discussion about something without completely sweeping one half of the discussion under the rug. Match fixing is detrimental to the competitive integrity of any scene, especially one as small as this. I'd line nothing more than to see more Life games -- I could never have enough -- but "Life did nothing wrong" is an absurd position.
Nope, matchfixing in any type of sporting event does not matter at the end of the day. They're all just games. Entertainment so people can escape. People losing their shit over this are losing their perspective, let alone throwing someone in JAIL for it?
This is something people don't understand. Life's actions (along with a few other players), directly supported the ending of proleague, and the shutting down of korean teams. He cost the jobs of countless players and coaches, not only currently but also potential future ones.
Matchfixing has a long history of damaging esports in korea. Almost all pros in korea refuse to play with, or even be involved with, players that were caught matchfixing. Crank said that even if his closest friend was caught matchfixing, he would never want to see their face again
This, exactly. Multiple progamers have spoken on multiple occasions about the irreparable damage Life did to the pro scene. No, he was not the only reason Proleague ended. Yes, he was a major one. He was the biggest name (by far) in the big matchfixing scandal of 2015, and therefore receives the biggest share of the blame.
When your close friend deliberately and directly works toward crippling your job and your career for selfish gain, you are going to really, really hate that "friend." Dark gave a particularly bitter interview where he talked about the desperate efforts by players/coaches/officials working together to keep Proleague alive, but Life almost singlehandedly destroyed everyone's hard work. Just so he could make a quick buck.
The Korean pros hate Life's guts, unanimously, and I cannot imagine any kind of scenario in which they'd accept him back in any capacity.
I know the first I heard of Life being back in any capacity was when Gumiho played him and someone posted it to reddit. I think Gumiho played him a few times that day and didn't leave. Anyway, maybe everyone leaves now. Blanket statements like "All Koreans will refuse to play with Life" don't sit well with me sans a mountain of evidence, but they could be true.
If that is true, then a comeback of any kind would be tough. But at least the official ban could be gone and it could be possible for him to come back over time if he did the right things. Maybe not. I guess to me, whether some self-appointed speaker for the whole Korean scene cares for it or not, the official ban should be lifted if he shows remorse and a desire to redeem himself.
I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
A Korean fan recently made a long post about Life on Reddit:
I’m not writing this to persuade anyone to hate Life. If it was true that there was coercion, okay, it can lessen my hatred about Life, but still, it can not be the reason that I should forgive and accept him as an SC2 player. Most criminals have their own personal reasons. But because of Life, his colleagues lost their jobs. All the staff of pro-teams lost their jobs too. As I told you, I want to see their "evidence" with that they insist that Life was threatened, but it won't change my mind. Since the destroyed Korean pro-scene cannot be changed even with it.
........
"I'm just surprised that foreign fans don't understand how Koreans feel about match-fixing. I saw some people translating Korean players' interviews - If they can read the Korean articles, they should have known these things. I guess some of them are fans of the match-fixers, so that's the reason they are filtering out the real responses from Korea."
.........
"So that’s why Korean fans are very decisive when speaking about matchfixers, and not just Life, but everyone else involved. We have a zero-tolerance policy regarding matchfixing. Maybe there are people who try to defend him, but I don’t know anyone who would. If someone were to try and maintain that position other fans would be heavily critical of them."
Mind you, I was simply talking about the Korean attitude toward Life. Regarding Life actually making a comeback, it's virtually impossible. Like I mentioned in an earlier post:
"People on TL or Reddit can talk and moralize as much as they want, but reality says that Life is not coming back, period. Wax wrote an article on how the situation actually stands the last time people started talking about Life, and long story short, Blizzard legally holds all the cards. So far they've been pretty quiet about removing any mention of Life from SC2 history, but if push comes to shove they can absolutely just drop the banhammer."
I respect all this. I had read the Olimoley post back when she posted it. I don't think Life should be welcomed back with warm embraces. He would need to face players refusing to play, and competitions banning him. I think Blizzard and whoever may be involved in Korea though should let it go though. Let fringe competitions have him play. Let people he knows get won over by his humility (assuming he has any).
For all I know, Life doesn't have the character to achieve redemption under these circumstances. Or maybe Korean society wouldn't allow it. But I feel the official bans should be considered to have run their course and things should be allowed to play out.
Come to think of it, I don't think Life has ever made any kind of public statement on his position. Not even one of the pro forma apologies you might expect.
In any case, the point I was getting at was that Life, as a Korean citizen and progamer, would almost certainly be very unwelcome if he tried to make a comeback to the Korean scene. That is a barrier to [re]entry, obviously, but not as large a barrier as KeSPA's permaban (and yes, KeSPA does still legally govern SC2 despite the KeSPA teams disbanding), and the largest barrier of all is Blizzard itself, which has shown every inclination of trying to erase Life from living memory.
And as Wax put it: "While Blizzard hasn’t had to flex its muscle (that we know of), it holds the ultimate power should it choose to exercise it."
Community hate is a "soft" barrier to entry. A sufficiently callous player could ignore the hate from fans/competitors and keep playing. Even if Life was universally loved by the community (hah), the official barriers to entry are the ones that actually provide the muscle that keeps him out, and those barriers aren't coming down regardless of what you or I say here.
All the better reason to have an interview. Has our lack of response from Life been Life's choice? We can't know until he is interviewed by someone impartial. I would like to hear from him.
Obviously, yes, Life coming back would involve Blizzard letting it happen. That's the point of the thread (in essence, if not literally). Blizzard should let it happen. Bans don't need to be permanent. Redemption is the best story line. Maybe Life gives it a go and just gets manner muled into obscurity. Maybe Life makes an improbable comeback and becomes a beloved, if flawed, figure. The scene would benefit from this whole process.
I mean, that's Blizzard's decision. Feel free to write a petition or something. Though it would be a tough sell even if the fans were united behind it instead of divided into highly polarized camps the way they actually are.
But judging by the actions they've taken so far, like removing Life's poster from the Hall of Honor, or erasing his name from the Blizzcon trophy, I'm guessing that Blizzard will continue giving Life the cold shoulder.
You're probably right. I'm not holding my breath. Maybe they'll consider threads like this a sort of petition. I think continuing to ban him is a net loss for the community. I get others don't think so though.
And I'm not in the "zergs suck now" camp. Life's absence has really made it easy for players like dark to make a case as best zerg, And Dark has done it in his own unique way. Not to mention how soO has been amazing, and Rogue has rekt everybody for months. I don't pine for Life out of a feeling that zergs are underrepresented. I am arguing on his behalf because I think (1) he was a unique player we could use back in the scene to really have a vital scene and (2) I believe in limited punishments and redemptions of those who have erred.
On October 11 2017 09:43 pvsnp wrote: I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
Pls stop that assumption. It's just not true. There are reasons besides of being "diehard" (what even? fans?) for a more forgiving stance on matchfixer's case. I'm not "defending" Life. He was acting fundamentally wrong. But I think in general that people should have second chances. There should be at least a formal possibility of redemption. This wouldn't be an easy way and it would be far from certain if it would work out or if Life (or others) would even give it a try.
I totally disagree with the korean attitude to not even talk to matchfixers, to dump down even a very good friend because of "that's evil!". To not even try to understand under which circumstances the matchfixing happened, and therefore never explore the thought- and emotional process a matchfixer goes through. The result is that nobody knows anything for real about matchfixing until someone himself gets into the situation. The korean way of handling the matchfixing problem makes it impossible to learn anything from the scandal - neither for individuals to be prepared if an "opportunity" arises nor for society to reflect on it's mistakes that led to a situation that made matchfixing attractive/possible.
I don't say that matchfixers should be welcomed back with fanfares or even be welcomed at all. But they should have the chance to express their remorse, to publicly pay back to the community (perhaps by funding a anonymus matchfixer helpline or donating major parts of price money to the scene or stuff like that), to tell their story and to perform again. They still would've to deal with the hate, with distrust and so on. I think the scene would benefit from this in the long run. Is it likely that someone really goes this path? Probably not, but to categorically reject the mere possibilty is a sign of coldness in our society and of incapacity of the scene to really fathom a problem even if it hurts and confronts it with it's own faults.
Also for the "matchfixing destroyed proleague"-argument: we'll never know that for sure. Obviously it contributed to the end of proleague but to what extent is a matter of speculation - especially considering how emotional everybody is about the matchfixing.
One of the most frustrating things is that he was so young, so successful in the game and had a wealth of tournament wins and prize money and still match fixed. It's as bemusing as it is abhorent.
On October 11 2017 09:43 pvsnp wrote: I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
Pls stop that assumption. It's just not true. There are reasons besides of being "diehard" (what even? fans?) for a more forgiving stance on matchfixer's case. I'm not "defending" Life. He was acting fundamentally wrong. But I think in general that people should have second chances. There should be at least a formal possibility of redemption. This wouldn't be an easy way and it would be far from certain if it would work out or if Life (or others) would even give it a try.
I totally disagree with the korean attitude to not even talk to matchfixers, to dump down even a very good friend because of "that's evil!". To not even try to understand under which circumstances the matchfixing happened, and therefore never explore the thought- and emotional process a matchfixer goes through. The result is that nobody knows anything for real about matchfixing until someone himself gets into the situation. The korean way of handling the matchfixing problem makes it impossible to learn anything from the scandal - neither for individuals to be prepared if an "opportunity" arises nor for society to reflect on it's mistakes that led to a situation that made matchfixing attractive/possible.
I don't say that matchfixers should be welcomed back with fanfares or even be welcomed at all. But they should have the chance to express their remorse, to publicly pay back to the community (perhaps by funding a anonymus matchfixer helpline or donating major parts of price money to the scene or stuff like that), to tell their story and to perform again. They still would've to deal with the hate, with distrust and so on. I think the scene would benefit from this in the long run. Is it likely that someone really goes this path? Probably not, but to categorically reject the mere possibilty is a sign of coldness in our society and of incapacity of the scene to really fathom a problem even if it hurts and confronts it with it's own faults.
Also for the "matchfixing destroyed proleague"-argument: we'll never know that for sure. Obviously it contributed to the end of proleague but to what extent is a matter of speculation - especially considering how emotional everybody is about the matchfixing.
If a matchfixer has remorse they should just leave the scene and move on with their life. I just don't understand this notion that they somehow must stay connected with the scene. It's just a videogame community, there are other things for them to do with their lives. And any such attempt is almost always an overture to new attempts to monetize their presence in the community, either by performing, contracts or streaming.
I remember MLG Dallas 2012 and following Life's journey through the tournament, not being able to help but scribble notes and grind on ladder like crazy after the ZvZ finals against Leenock. Every game was a huge inspiration, I finally figured that, ya know, it's fine to have massive losses now and then, even if you can't find something positive to take from it in the moment it's a natural thing that happens and it's fine as long as you do your best about it. Something I'd remember and forget over and over through the years, of course.
For a couple of weeks after that tournament I didn't have any ladder anxiety, or much anxiety at all for that matter. Not knowing what I was going to do while everyone else was starting college after the summer didn't matter as much, family issues didn't matter as much, I just wanted to keep playing and learning. It was one of those series that changed my life in a weird and positive way that without a doubt had a bigger butterfly effect than I could ever wrap my mind around. I'm pretty sure that series is also what got me to start regularly watching GSL (believe it or not nobody really watched it in my town).
And that's just one series, just how it affected me during a brief period of time, and one that I barely remember by now either. It solidified my aggressive style of play that I would go on to play for three to four more years and would get me to finish a season above Bronze league without thinking it was by complete coincidence. It was one of a few series around that time that got me to realize how much faster I could play during Ling wars, and overall. That was also a while before he skyrocketed in my eyes around 2014 and 2015 and really started to affect the players and the game.
2012 was a pretty big year for me and honestly not because of me graduating high school early or paying 100% of my bills on my own, but because of me watching more games of players like MC, MMA, Life, Bomber and Scarlett.
--
Sigh, I wanted to make a much longer post that might be more on topic for everyone, but it just isn't... reading well, I guess. Maybe it's just me today, hopefully this thread doesn't get closed and I can make something more full since this is a topic and discussion I'm passionate about. And there are always a lot of questions to think about, a lot of things to talk about besides a menagerie of memories.
On October 11 2017 20:21 blunderfulguy wrote: Sigh, I wanted to make a much longer post that might be more on topic for everyone, but it just isn't... reading well, I guess. Maybe it's just me today, hopefully this thread doesn't get closed and I can make something more full since this is a topic and discussion I'm passionate about. And there are always a lot of questions to think about, a lot of things to talk about besides a menagerie of memories.
I look forward to read more about it. It was a little but inspirational read for me
On October 11 2017 09:43 pvsnp wrote: I'm not pretending to speak for the Korean scene. I'm simply saying that all the evidence I have seen points to Life being a widely hated figure in Korea. Olimoley posted about it, Mizenhauer interviewed Leimmia about it, Dark spoke about it, Classic spoke about it, etc, etc. I haven't heard anyone besides foreign diehards speak in his defense.
Pls stop that assumption. It's just not true. There are reasons besides of being "diehard" (what even? fans?) for a more forgiving stance on matchfixer's case. I'm not "defending" Life. He was acting fundamentally wrong. But I think in general that people should have second chances. There should be at least a formal possibility of redemption. This wouldn't be an easy way and it would be far from certain if it would work out or if Life (or others) would even give it a try.
I totally disagree with the korean attitude to not even talk to matchfixers, to dump down even a very good friend because of "that's evil!". To not even try to understand under which circumstances the matchfixing happened, and therefore never explore the thought- and emotional process a matchfixer goes through. The result is that nobody knows anything for real about matchfixing until someone himself gets into the situation. The korean way of handling the matchfixing problem makes it impossible to learn anything from the scandal - neither for individuals to be prepared if an "opportunity" arises nor for society to reflect on it's mistakes that led to a situation that made matchfixing attractive/possible.
I don't say that matchfixers should be welcomed back with fanfares or even be welcomed at all. But they should have the chance to express their remorse, to publicly pay back to the community (perhaps by funding a anonymus matchfixer helpline or donating major parts of price money to the scene or stuff like that), to tell their story and to perform again. They still would've to deal with the hate, with distrust and so on. I think the scene would benefit from this in the long run. Is it likely that someone really goes this path? Probably not, but to categorically reject the mere possibilty is a sign of coldness in our society and of incapacity of the scene to really fathom a problem even if it hurts and confronts it with it's own faults.
Also for the "matchfixing destroyed proleague"-argument: we'll never know that for sure. Obviously it contributed to the end of proleague but to what extent is a matter of speculation - especially considering how emotional everybody is about the matchfixing.
If a matchfixer has remorse they should just leave the scene and move on with their life. I just don't understand this notion that they somehow must stay connected with the scene. It's just a videogame community, there are other things for them to do with their lives. And any such attempt is almost always an overture to new attempts to monetize their presence in the community, either by performing, contracts or streaming.
It wasn't my point to do everything possible to make matchfixers come back. I just want that it is possible. Also I don't think that leaving the scene makes you more or less remorseful than otherwise. In my eyes being remorseful means confronting yourself with the consequences but not just fleeing. The scene won't benefit from matchfixers never looking back again, but it could gain really thankful and loyal players, if it were able to accept someone being serious about redemption. And if "it's just a videogame community" why is it so important to reject matchfixers with full force in the first place? Probably because it's not "just a videogame community" to many of us.
One of the most frustrating things is that he was so young, so successful in the game and had a wealth of tournament wins and prize money and still match fixed. It's as bemusing as it is abhorent.
if im right, Life had an addiction, gambling. And he gambled away most, if not all of his earnings. I guess the mob used that against him.. I'm not sure but he might be completely broke.
If a matchfixer has remorse they should just leave the scene and move on with their life. I just don't understand this notion that they somehow must stay connected with the scene. It's just a videogame community, there are other things for them to do with their lives. And any such attempt is almost always an overture to new attempts to monetize their presence in the community, either by performing, contracts or streaming.
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he got sentenced for 18 monts, with a 3 years trial period. After that 3 years trial is over, i think he should have given the chance for a return. He was also arrested for months before, so that 3 years will be close to 4. That's enough punishment. Obviously i would force him to do some community service, check on a psychologist every week or month with his addiction etc. There could be a compromise.
Life was the greatest instinctual player of all time. Pure quick twitch decision making. The only player that could upset anyone in the world at any time ... if he cared enough. I'm sure this is the same cerebral skill led to his addiction to gambling and poor life choices. Same goes for most savants.
To me he was the greatest ever skill wise. His last Blizzcon was the proof. No one expected him to make it to the Finals. Everyone always counted him out and expected other players to hold the trophy. But most knew, that when he turned on his fire, "Life finds a way." The epitome of this was his defeat of Innovation who was favored to win it all.
Unfortunately his personal addictions bleed over into hurting the SC2 community. And as most online witch hunts go, forgiveness is not an option. Not saying that he deserves to be let back into the community, just that people are too quick to judge others.
I think this hurts more than most, because he inspired so many to join the community. My personal awakening into the SC2 world was Maru vs. Life IEM 2015 Taipei Grand Final. I am an old school non competitive (Blood Bath/Hunters/BGH) fan of Starcraft before and after Brood War. Later I enjoyed a little SC2. But I'm only here posting and watching every competition because of Life. It hurts the community because most would love to have the skill he had, and yet he threw it all away. I feel anger, but mostly I feel pity for someone who had it all, and then had it all taken away over a stupid insignificant couple of matches.
I'm still here because of Life ... and now Neeb. Without him there'd be 1 less fan watching the dwindling viewer counts of this wonderful game. Though if I'm honest, me getting into the SC2 scene is probably a drop in the bucket compared to those who left after he burned the momentum of 2015. Yet, Life inspired many others to watch SC2 because of how exciting he played. So overall who knows, he might've still had a positive impact on the game, despite his downfall. The inventiveness, the micro skill, the pure unpredictability ... Zerg is a little more boring without him.
Anyways. Still love the SC2 community, even if it's mostly as a spectator.
On October 11 2017 22:34 fronkschnonk wrote: And if "it's just a videogame community" why is it so important to reject matchfixers with full force in the first place? Probably because it's not "just a videogame community" to many of us.
I wasn't trying to denigrate SC2.
I'm thinking of the following idea: you engage in some moral transgression and you would be ostracized from the community to the point of it seriously affecting your quality of life. So, e.g. in some cases during the cold war if you were discovered to be a communist you would be blacklisted from every realistic avenue of employment and would languish in poverty. But because the SC2 community is relatively small and insulated (i.e. just a videogame community) you can actually just detach yourself from it and suffer virtually nothing except for having to give up this one thing. Nobody loves SC2 to the point that if they can't play it they would become depressed, pitiful people. (and you can play video games anonymously anyway)
The reason people like Savior kept being part of the scene is because they are greedy and lazy and want their easy life of streaming video games for money to continue. It has nothing to do with remorse, everything with a certain type of narcissism. For fans to enable it is really shortsighted.
In my opinion, these players that committed what is essentially fraud, knowing it had the potential to blow up the scene and destroy competitive integrity and give more power to mobsters, should have no sympathy and should never be forgiven. They are all young and to have become so successful must have high intelligence, so they can go to school or have normal jobs and live happy fulfilling lives. Just not while connected to the one small-ish community that they managed to basically act abusive towards.
On October 11 2017 22:34 fronkschnonk wrote: And if "it's just a videogame community" why is it so important to reject matchfixers with full force in the first place? Probably because it's not "just a videogame community" to many of us.
I wasn't trying to denigrate SC2.
I'm thinking of the following idea: you engage in some moral transgression and you would be ostracized from the community to the point of it seriously affecting your quality of life. So, e.g. in some cases during the cold war if you were discovered to be a communist you would be blacklisted from every realistic avenue of employment and would languish in poverty. But because the SC2 community is relatively small and insulated (i.e. just a videogame community) you can actually just detach yourself from it and suffer virtually nothing except for having to give up this one thing. Nobody loves SC2 to the point that if they can't play it they would become depressed, pitiful people. (and you can play video games anonymously anyway)
The reason people like Savior kept being part of the scene is because they are greedy and lazy and want their easy life of streaming video games for money to continue. It has nothing to do with remorse, everything with a certain type of narcissism. For fans to enable it is really shortsighted.
In my opinion, these players that committed what is essentially fraud, knowing it had the potential to blow up the scene and destroy competitive integrity and give more power to mobsters, should have no sympathy and should never be forgiven. They are all young and to have become so successful must have high intelligence, so they can go to school or have normal jobs and live happy fulfilling lives. Just not while connected to the one small-ish community that they managed to basically act abusive towards.
And you don't even consider the possibility of a matchfixer being actually remorseful and feeling bound to give something back to the scene which he betrayed? Perhaps he would even accept the pain of being hated as rightful punishment that he has to bear as a consequence of his actions. Ofcourse this is not very likely but just because others - like savior - didn't show a small sign of sorrow, it isn't impossible that someone actually could feel like that. Also how could someone ever be able to show a desire to redeem himself when there is no possible way - and may it be an unlikely one - to achieve such a thing? You can judge matchfixers for being greedy and lazy and rightfully so, but there is a taste of bitterness to me because we'll never know, if some (or just one) of them would've humbled himself for the good of the community if the opportunity would've been existent.
I'm not trying to make a case for Life here. Probably my vision or just my moral argumentation can only be valid if he or another matchfixer publicly makes the first step. But I think it wouldn't hurt to communicate that such a step wouldn't be absoluty condemned to be unsuccessful.
I deeply disagree on your point that being great at starcraft means that you must have high intelligence. It's no rocket science. And there are so many young people - even intelligent ones - who don't think about consequences. I can understand the hate that this causes but I can't understand why it is so important that the hatred gets satisfied.
On October 09 2017 23:28 Grumbels wrote: I'm in favor of a zero tolerance policy. I don't really understand why, for every famous person that abuses their power, there are legions of people that want to put that person back into power.
In my opinion...
If I'm an entrepeneur and I defraud the state, I should no longer have any sort of access to government loans and so on. Instead I can just become an employee somewhere. If I'm a politician and I'm caught solliciting bribes, I should be banned from all government functions and perhaps go work in the private sector. If I'm an athlete and I'm caught using doping and engaging in matchfixing I should just be eliminated from professional competition. If I really enjoy what I'm doing I can continue as an amateur in my spare time, while otherwise pursuing a career in some other place.
None of these are personal foibles or sins. If I'm an athlete and I'm caught using recreational drugs or engaging in illegal gambling, then this should in my view not be considered a breach of professional ethics. Perhaps legally my employer has a right to fire me based on some contract I signed, but I shouldn't be prevented from seeking employment within the same industry. But if I commit a very serious breach of professional ethics, like matchfixing for an athlete, or fraudulent behavior for a banker, then I should be seen as toxic and should be barred from the sector, at least for a handful of years and contingent on reforming as a person.
In all of these scenarios I would be something of a role model, these are positions with a lot of visibility where I can gain a lot of wealth or power. The standards should be even higher there. Furthermore, I can always find employment elsewhere.
I understand why athletes would be trying to get away with it, they probably like getting to play games for a living and being adored by many. And fans might consider these players talented and charismatic and want to see them play, and are invested in their careers. And for organizers they might be big draws with existing fan bases. But it's still not right.
A cashier who steals from a cash register in the supermarket in a local town once can be blacklisted from all realistic avenues of employment, and no one cares while that person languishes in poverty. But if you get to be on television you can commit any crime, no matter how serious, and you will be rehabilitated and forgiven.
Life is still young, he can just go to university and become an obscure student. That's what he deserves, and it's not a bad fate. Same for Savior. They should just move on and accept their losses. Any continuing presence in the community is a signal to amoral people everywhere that they can get away with it, and that if you're famous or powerful enough professional standards don't apply to you.
On October 08 2017 18:55 nkr wrote: Doesn't matter how much impact you have when you are the main man behind a scene-ruining moneygrab.
2010 joined user speaks for the entire BW community... lmfao
Nah, sAviOr's ZvT in his prime is the stuff of legend, those matches still impress no matter how many times I rewatch them, and I didn't even main Zerg myself.
Yeah but how many digits does your slashdot ID have?
Really wish Life could play sc2 again. There aren't really any amazing zergs too root for besides soo, dark, snute, tlo & soo. These are probably the best 5 zergs that you root for but then when you think about Life...he tops them all. He was 18, he was stupid. Forget the match scandel, he paid his crime.
On October 14 2017 13:21 SidianTheBard wrote: Really wish Life could play sc2 again. There aren't really any amazing zergs too root for besides soo, dark, snute, tlo & soo. These are probably the best 5 zergs that you root for but then when you think about Life...he tops them all. He was 18, he was stupid. Forget the match scandel, he paid his crime.
Life...we want him back!
A part of me does want to see his playstyle again. But then reallistically speaking he wouldn't necessarily be as successful/entertaining in LOTV compared to HOTS. The debate whether he should have been punished so hard is a different question.
EPT
