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On September 20 2017 01:10 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2017 00:43 Fango wrote:
Even with the advantages that korean pros have had over the years. The level of compitition is simply so much higher that makes it more difficult.
imagine this:
Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level
Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit
I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event.
I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better
Obligatory reminder that Inno did spend a year on Acer, before deciding to return to KeSPA because he was dissatisfied with his individual results. He immediately won GSL upon joining SKT and brought a silver medal as a gift for his new teammate. Those first few weeks must've been awkward with soO, I imagine.
If I remember it correctly, he joined like literally right before the finals?
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On September 20 2017 01:16 Sakat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2017 01:10 pvsnp wrote:On September 20 2017 00:43 Fango wrote:
Even with the advantages that korean pros have had over the years. The level of compitition is simply so much higher that makes it more difficult.
imagine this:
Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level
Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit
I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event.
I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better
Obligatory reminder that Inno did spend a year on Acer, before deciding to return to KeSPA because he was dissatisfied with his individual results. He immediately won GSL upon joining SKT and brought a silver medal as a gift for his new teammate. Those first few weeks must've been awkward with soO, I imagine. If I remember it correctly, he joined like literally right before the finals?
He joined the day before his semifinal vs Cure, which was a week before the finals. He must've made friends quickly because Dark apparently worked very hard to help him prepare (Inno thanked him in the winner's interview).
Dark such a scumbag friend, he seems to make a habit of helping soO's finals opponents. 
^Dark also helped Stats for the 2017 GSL Season 1 finals, which soO was pissed about
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Something for reddit to think about
Yes, I remember that. I really disliked Inno back then, due to his somewhat monotone playstyle (and I wanted soO to win so badly), but seeing him develop as a player over the years has been really great.
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19533 Posts
On September 20 2017 00:43 Fango wrote:
Even with the advantages that korean pros have had over the years. The level of compitition is simply so much higher that makes it more difficult.
imagine this:
Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level
Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit
I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event.
I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better
He had to put in more work but he also had the advantages of teamhouses, coaching, korean ladder, etc.
You cannot mathematically weigh all these things up and come to a definite conclusion. All these players are what they are not only through own determinism (which is a huge part, even in the foreign scene  ) but also because of their diret surroundings allowing for it.
Which is why the region locking was a necessary thing if we wanted to develop a foreigns scene. The best way to become as good as a korean pro simply was to experience their infrastructure.
The idea of wcs was to develop a foreign one, sc2 simply isn't nearly popular enough for that to work out (and even if it were koreans would still have an advantage because of all the experience and the circumstances in korea, etc, just look at lol)
I don't think there is a good conclusion to all of this. Yes the top 16 players in the world are likely korean (or at least mostly korean) and if that is all we care for then 8-8 split is unfair. I think the issue is really not that important though tbh
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Inno looked different back then, the v2.14 paint job was very bishie:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/XT2rKW6.jpg)
but the firmware was still the same.
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On September 20 2017 01:33 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2017 00:43 Fango wrote:
Even with the advantages that korean pros have had over the years. The level of compitition is simply so much higher that makes it more difficult.
imagine this:
Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level
Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit
I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event.
I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better
He had to put in more work but he also had the advantages of teamhouses, coaching, korean ladder, etc. You cannot mathematically weigh all these things up and come to a definite conclusion. All these players are what they are not only through own determinism (which is a huge part, even in the foreign scene ) but also because of their diret surroundings allowing for it. Which is why the region locking was a necessary thing if we wanted to develop a foreigns scene. The best way to become as good as a korean pro simply was to experience their infrastructure. The idea of wcs was to develop a foreign one, sc2 simply isn't nearly popular enough for that to work out (and even if it were koreans would still have an advantage because of all the experience and the circumstances in korea, etc, just look at lol) I don't think there is a good conclusion to all of this. Yes the top 16 players in the world are likely korean (or at least mostly korean) and if that is all we care for then 8-8 split is unfair. I think the issue is really not that important though tbh
While I cannot mathematically compare the two. I can say with almost complete certainty which one is greater than the other.
"It's harder to win a korean tournament, as a korean, than to win a foreigner tournament, as a foreigner"
Like Neeb said, just practice more than the other foreigners and you can win with ez :p
And I have no issues with the region lock anymore btw (well that's a lie but that's for somewhere else lol), but there is simply more competition in the korean scene than the foreign one.
"All top 8 koreans are fucking insane by korean standards, only the top 2-3 foreigners are insane by foreigner standards"
You can do fairly meh in foreign events and still get to blizzcon (TRUE), because the competition below top 8 is very weak, but top 8 korea is reserved for champions and finalists alone. Some of which might not even make it
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Still can't believe Byun won't be at blizzcon. You'd think winning the previous year qualifies you for an automatic spot for the next year. SMH
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On September 20 2017 06:02 J. Corsair wrote:
Still can't believe Byun won't be at blizzcon. You'd think winning the previous year qualifies you for an automatic spot for the next year. SMH
Why ? He had a lot of tournaments to qualify, downfall since the gsl s2 2016, that was predictable.
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On September 20 2017 06:21 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2017 06:02 J. Corsair wrote:
Still can't believe Byun won't be at blizzcon. You'd think winning the previous year qualifies you for an automatic spot for the next year. SMH Why ? He had a lot of tournaments to qualify, downfall since the gsl s2 2016, that was predictable.
Because he is an incredibly exciting player, win or lose, and his resurgence last year breathed quite a bit of fresh air into SC2, as a whole.
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On September 20 2017 06:44 J. Corsair wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2017 06:21 DieuCure wrote:On September 20 2017 06:02 J. Corsair wrote:
Still can't believe Byun won't be at blizzcon. You'd think winning the previous year qualifies you for an automatic spot for the next year. SMH Why ? He had a lot of tournaments to qualify, downfall since the gsl s2 2016, that was predictable. Because he is an incredibly exciting player, win or lose, and his resurgence last year breathed quite a bit of fresh air into SC2, as a whole.
Has for Blizzcon.
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On September 20 2017 06:02 J. Corsair wrote:
Still can't believe Byun won't be at blizzcon. You'd think winning the previous year qualifies you for an automatic spot for the next year. SMH
No. A year is too long to give someone an auto seed
Look at Innovation now compared to last year, ridiculous difference in form. Or look at Zest last year vs now.
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On September 20 2017 07:07 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2017 06:02 J. Corsair wrote:
Still can't believe Byun won't be at blizzcon. You'd think winning the previous year qualifies you for an automatic spot for the next year. SMH No. A year is too long to give someone an auto seed Look at Innovation now compared to last year, ridiculous difference in form. Or look at Zest last year vs now.
Agreed. ByuN wasn't good enough to make Blizzcon (from Korea), simple as that.
Eight spots available, and every single one of players #1-8 has at least been in the finals of a 2017 premier tournament. Five of them are champions, hell INnoVation is a champion four times over and even he is only ranked second.
ByuN made it to the semifinals of one big tournament in all of 2017, IEM Shanghai. The champion of that tournament, Rogue, isn't even going to Blizzcon. Now I like the man, and he has a cute dog, but he simply hasn't put up Blizzcon-worthy results in 2017. I get that he's a popular guy. Popularity already brought him to GSL vs the World. But popularity can only take him so far.
Eight Koreans are heading to Blizzcon, and ByuN isn't one of them. Bluntly put, he doesn't deserve to be.
(I would also say many foreigners--Blizzcon attendees--deserve to be there even less, but that's a whole different issue)
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the 8-8 split just made ro16 half as difficult for the 8 Koreans as they used to face Koreans in ro16 before instead of foreigners now. Tbh, the other 8 Koreans left at home wouldn't be able to become the champion so it doesn't affect the Blizzcon result anyway. Let's call ro16 Blizzcon Wellfare showmatches before we head to the real competition afterwards. It's like football Worldcup, they give 32 slots for countries all around the world but in the end, only the top 6 European teams plus Brazil and Argentina matter.
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On September 20 2017 11:18 ParksonVN wrote:
the 8-8 split just made ro16 half as difficult for the 8 Koreans as they used to face Koreans in ro16 before instead of foreigners now. Tbh, the other 8 Koreans left at home wouldn't be able to become the champion so it doesn't affect the Blizzcon result anyway. Let's call ro16 Blizzcon Wellfare showmatches before we head to the real competition afterwards. It's like football Worldcup, they give 32 slots for countries all around the world but in the end, only the top 6 European teams plus Brazil and Argentina matter.
It's certainly a matter of debate on whether the other 8 would or would not become champions, as there are some very skilled Koreans not going to Blizzcon (though, this year they have not performed as well). Incidentally, the winners of the 2013, 2014, and 2015 Blizzcon World Championships were all below the top 8 of WCS points earners.
But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
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Poor TIME 
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On September 20 2017 11:18 ParksonVN wrote:
Tbh, the other 8 Koreans left at home wouldn't be able to become the champion so it doesn't affect the Blizzcon result anyway. Let's call ro16 Blizzcon Wellfare showmatches before we head to the real competition afterwards. It's like football Worldcup, they give 32 slots for countries all around the world but in the end, only the top 6 European teams plus Brazil and Argentina matter.
I wouldn't put it past Rogue, Maru, Classic, or aLive (or maybe sOs) to win blizzcon if they were in good form. All of them were one or two matches of qualifying by the end of the year. And many in the top 8 were only one or two losses of not getting in. Plus given that points have been collected over the past 10 months, the form of all the players has been up and down
You know when Life and sOs won they were rank 14 in WCS right? They just happen to peak around the right time to win blizzcon.
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On September 20 2017 16:17 FrkFrJss wrote:
But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
To be fair, last year was a shitshow in terms of the korean elite anyway. In my opinion, Dark, Stats, Zest, TY, and ByuN were the only players that looked like real contenders. Solar, Patience, and Dear seemed to just play decent most of the time. I wasn't suprised in the slightest that they lost at blizzcon.
I don't even know what was going on in 2016 tbh. Maybe the proleague cancellation, LoTV issues or whatever. But so many guys that showed up in 2015 and 2017 just had no results. I mean myungsik was almost one match of qualifying for blizzcon ffs
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On September 21 2017 02:35 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2017 16:17 FrkFrJss wrote:
But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
To be fair, last year was a shitshow in terms of the korean elite anyway. In my opinion, Dark, Stats, Zest, TY, and ByuN were the only players that looked like real contenders. Solar, Patience, and Dear seemed to just play decent most of the time. I wasn't suprised in the slightest that they lost at blizzcon. I don't even know what was going on in 2016 tbh. Maybe the proleague cancellation, LoTV issues or whatever. But so many guys that showed up in 2015 and 2017 just had no results. I mean myungsik was almost one match of qualifying for blizzcon ffs
Agreed. 2016 wasn't the best year for Korea, all things considered. I've got a much higher opinion of the 2017 Korean lineup. Stats, Inno, Dark, are favorites, soO, TY, Gumiho, herO, and whomever 8th place ends up being all seem more than strong enough to wreck most of the foreigners and go the distance against the favorites.
I'm anticipating a foreign bloodbath in the Ro16. Neeb has a decent shot at making it out, same for Elazer, depending on which Koreans end up in their groups (all currently unknown). Serral got a tough group (Inno and probably Gumi), and has disappointed on the big stage before. The other foreigners are so many sacrificial lambs.
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On September 21 2017 02:40 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2017 02:35 Fango wrote:On September 20 2017 16:17 FrkFrJss wrote:
But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
To be fair, last year was a shitshow in terms of the korean elite anyway. In my opinion, Dark, Stats, Zest, TY, and ByuN were the only players that looked like real contenders. Solar, Patience, and Dear seemed to just play decent most of the time. I wasn't suprised in the slightest that they lost at blizzcon. I don't even know what was going on in 2016 tbh. Maybe the proleague cancellation, LoTV issues or whatever. But so many guys that showed up in 2015 and 2017 just had no results. I mean myungsik was almost one match of qualifying for blizzcon ffs Agreed. 2016 wasn't the best year for Korea, all things considered. I've got a much higher opinion of the 2017 Korean lineup. Stats, Inno, Dark, are favorites, soO, TY, Gumiho, herO, and whomever 8th place ends up being all seem more than strong enough to wreck most of the foreigners and go the distance against the favorites. I'm anticipating a foreign bloodbath in the Ro16. Neeb has a decent shot at making it out, same for Elazer, depending on which Koreans end up in their groups (all currently unknown). Serral got a tough group (Inno and probably Gumi), and has disappointed on the big stage before. The other foreigners are so many sacrificial lambs.
Tbh I expect Neeb to be the only one to actually put up a proper fight, maybe even take someone out
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They was in trouble last year with the disbands
But ye, i feel like overall the competitiveness is higher this year in korea ( perhaps because they have more tournaments than last year, with only 2 SSL and 2 GSL, PL excepted)
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EPT
