EPT- Remove region lock
or
- WCS circuit champions only attend to Blizzcon
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
- Remove region lock or - WCS circuit champions only attend to Blizzcon | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 19 2017 04:53 The_Red_Viper wrote: If you wanna watch the most skilled players watch SSL/GSL/korean weekenders. Same argumentation style  Is it completely "fair" that foreigners get 8 spots if we only look at the relative skill levels? No. Do foreigners have the exact same opportunities to get as good as koreans? No. There is no objective fairness in all of this. I do watch GSL/SSL. My point is that blizzcon is THE event of the year. It has the biggest prizepool/viewship/audience/hype/historical impact. You win blizzcon you will always be remembered for it. That's why it should be the best players only, no one should get an easy seed. You want to see a "representation" of the entire world at one event? That's what WeSG did and it turned out...well... a bit boring to say the least I don't care if you argue foreigners don't have the same opportunities to get good or whatever. I'm sure there are sc2 players in random countries that have no chance to get good due to unreliable internet/ no LAN events or whatever. Doesn't mean they should get an easy blizzcon seed. No one should | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 19 2017 07:36 DieuCure wrote: Worst statement ever Diabolique, the amount of points paid wasnt the same. - Remove region lock or - WCS circuit champions only attend to Blizzcon This seems like a better way to go about it. Balance the blizzcon numbers around skill from the different regions. An 12/4 split would be okay, or a 16/8 etc. We want SOME foreigners there for the hype etc, and so people can cheer for the underdog or whatever. But an 8/8 split is too much I just don't understand people defending TRUE and Kela getting blizzcon seeds over Classic or Maru. We saw what happened last year with ByuN vs Violet, or Dark vs Drogo, or TY vs Elazer etc. It's bloody ridiculous. Is that really better for viewership? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 19 2017 09:05 Fango wrote: I do watch GSL/SSL. My point is that blizzcon is THE event of the year. It has the biggest prizepool/viewship/audience/hype/historical impact. You win blizzcon you will always be remembered for it. That's why it should be the best players only, no one should get an easy seed. You want to see a "representation" of the entire world at one event? That's what WeSG did and it turned out...well... a bit boring to say the least I don't care if you argue foreigners don't have the same opportunities to get good or whatever. I'm sure there are sc2 players in random countries that have no chance to get good due to unreliable internet/ no LAN events or whatever. Doesn't mean they should get an easy blizzcon seed. No one should But foreigners don't even get an "easy" blizzcon seed. It's not like we invite the best player out of every country. There is a tournament circuit you have to compete in and only the top8 get a spot. Are these 8 actually in the top16 of the world? No probably not but we aren't talking about some randoms getting into blizzcon here either (which basically happened with WESG) Do we only want a tournament scene in korea? Right now we have two scenes so it's just natural that people out of both scenes should be at blizzcon. It's arguable if the foreign scene "deserves" 8 spots but atm it's a simple split, that seems decent at least. It's funny that i argue FOR the foreigners btw because i actually am not invested in wcs at all. I still think it only can be positive for starcraft to have the wcs scene | ||
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engesser1
264 Posts
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Vutalisk
United States680 Posts
However, I do think Blizzard can improve the current system a bit. For example, allowing only Top 4 from each region to go straight to BlizzCon. Then, combine the next 8 players in the ranking (5 to 12) from each region and divide them into 4 groups. Top 2 from each group will advance to BlizzCon. That way, we will make sure that some players from 9 to 12 which normally will never have a chance to go to BlizzCon in current system have a chance to get themselves a spot at BlizzCon. Also, that will help with the complain that some players from Top 8 don't deserve to be at BC. Well, now they have to through the pre-BC group stage to make it to BC. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On September 19 2017 07:36 DieuCure wrote: Worst statement ever Diabolique, the amount of points paid wasnt the same. - Remove region lock or - WCS circuit champions only attend to Blizzcon Neeb won 3 of them, so does that mean only Neeb and Elazer should go? Nah, just make it 12/4 (or 10/6) | ||
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
On September 19 2017 07:36 DieuCure wrote: Worst statement ever Diabolique, the amount of points paid wasnt the same. - Remove region lock or - WCS circuit champions only attend to Blizzcon That is easy. Balance the number of points given ... But otherwise, 4+4 winners and the 8 remaining based on performances for all is ideal. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On September 19 2017 11:03 AzAlexZ wrote: Neeb won 3 of them, so does that mean only Neeb and Elazer should go? Nah, just make it 12/4 (or 10/6) So they should train instead of being lazy and happy of a ro8. | ||
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JAG.war
United States76 Posts
On September 19 2017 16:03 Diabolique wrote: That is easy. Balance the number of points given ... But otherwise, 4+4 winners and the 8 remaining based on performances for all is ideal. Diabolique, at first I loved your idea, but then I realized: Even if the points were balanced.. if you have, for example, Inno and a couple other players utterly dominate in Korea one year, you could theoretically have more World players than Korea players at Blizzcon, as all the Korean points went to less players. If all the world players were of equal skill, regardless of how good they are, they could take more spots. So this system would only reward the territory (Korea or World) with more top players that have equal skill to each other, not the most absolute skill overall. If that makes sense.... The best idea I've read so far is 12/4 or 10/6 - there would still be hype because it's foreigners against Korea, which rarely happens (this year was an exception, but only at select times). The 4 foreigners who get in are the only 4 who'd have a shot anyway, which is kind of the point of having a tournament in the first place. | ||
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Sakat
Croatia1599 Posts
Also, only champions from WCS should go though. In case of repeating champions one could imagine a consolidation "tournament" between the remaining top 4? Like a RR group bo. 5? Maybe? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 19 2017 09:48 The_Red_Viper wrote: But foreigners don't even get an "easy" blizzcon seed. It's not like we invite the best player out of every country. There is a tournament circuit you have to compete in and only the top8 get a spot. Are these 8 actually in the top16 of the world? No probably not but we aren't talking about some randoms getting into blizzcon here either (which basically happened with WESG) Do we only want a tournament scene in korea? Right now we have two scenes so it's just natural that people out of both scenes should be at blizzcon. It's arguable if the foreign scene "deserves" 8 spots but atm it's a simple split, that seems decent at least. It's funny that i argue FOR the foreigners btw because i actually am not invested in wcs at all. I still think it only can be positive for starcraft to have the wcs scene It's a hell of a lot easier for foreigners than for koreans. You think TRUE would be getting top 8 if he stayed in korea? Or Elazer, Kela, and Special wouldn't be losing in the GSL ro32 every season? I'm not against the region lock anymore. I just think that giving half the seeds to Circuit just results in a shitty blizzcon ro16, and is unfair to the players in korea that work harder and are better as a result edit: my point is that getting a blizzcon spot without even being a top 20 player of that year counts as an easy seed | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On September 19 2017 04:53 The_Red_Viper wrote: If you wanna watch the most skilled players watch SSL/GSL/korean weekenders. Same argumentation style Is it completely "fair" that foreigners get 8 spots if we only look at the relative skill levels? No. Do foreigners have the exact same opportunities to get as good as koreans? No. There is no objective fairness in all of this. I I forgot foreigners can only practice 6 hours a day, imagine what they could do if they had the chance to practice as much as koreans, so unfair. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 19 2017 21:52 Fango wrote: It's a hell of a lot easier for foreigners than for koreans. You think TRUE would be getting top 8 if he stayed in korea? Or Elazer, Kela, and Special wouldn't be losing in the GSL ro32 every season? I'm not against the region lock anymore. I just think that giving half the seeds to Circuit just results in a shitty blizzcon ro16, and is unfair to the players in korea that work harder and are better as a result edit: my point is that getting a blizzcon spot without even being a top 20 player of that year counts as an easy seed In a vacuum it is harder to become good enough for top 8 in korea, sure. But simply saying (again) that it's only the hard work of koreans which does that is kinda ridiculous. They live in korea, have the korean ladder to practice on, most of them had kespa teamhouses to train in, etc. The korean infrastructure directly helped them succeed. The end result is true though, koreans have more "skill" on average. Does that mean that they should get more out of blizzcon? Maybe. The main problem still is the split tournament structure and scene though. As long as all the players don't play in the same tournaments results are messy and inaccurate. That's how it is. Havign the best of both scenes compete at blizzcon seems like a decent solution even if it doesn't reflect the skill levels perfectly but as i am not sure if it even has to because i think the main argument of "how hard it is to get there" isn't nearly as straightfoward as you guys wanna imply. On September 19 2017 23:08 Morbidius wrote: I I forgot foreigners can only practice 6 hours a day, imagine what they could do if they had the chance to practice as much as koreans, so unfair. Yes that is all there is to it, i can see that you thought about it a long time, respect! In the imaginery talking about the fairness of blizzcon blizzcon you would definitely be in the top 8 of most hard working people. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 19 2017 23:42 The_Red_Viper wrote: In a vacuum it is harder to become good enough for top 8 in korea, sure. But simply saying (again) that it's only the hard work of koreans which does that is kinda ridiculous. They live in korea, have the korean ladder to practice on, most of them had kespa teamhouses to train in, etc. The korean infrastructure directly helped them succeed. The end result is true though, koreans have more "skill" on average. Does that mean that they should get more out of blizzcon? Maybe. The main problem still is the split tournament structure and scene though. As long as all the players don't play in the same tournaments results are messy and inaccurate. That's how it is. Havign the best of both scenes compete at blizzcon seems like a decent solution even if it doesn't reflect the skill levels perfectly but as i am not sure if it even has to because i think the main argument of "how hard it is to get there" isn't nearly as straightfoward as you guys wanna imply. It is though. All of the top 8 foreigners that tried to win in korea failed. The best any did was GSL ro32 I'm cool with foreigners getting to blizzcon. If they work hard enough and reach a level to deserve it. As far as I'm concerned, guys like TRUE and kelazur havn't done that. It feels like blizzard is truly fucking over players that have worked harder over the years and gotten better. Also, even if it's easier to get good in korea than anywhere else. The competition is several times harder, which outways that by a large margin. It is much more difficult for a player to live in korea for a while and get top 8, than to live in europe for a while and get top 8 there | ||
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KappaKingPrime
United States468 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
The region locking tried to achieve an own scene which could develop strong players naturally. It somewhat succeeded in a way but sc2 being as popular/unpopular as it is now simply cannot nearly reach the level of professionalism which would be required. It doesn't even in korea anymore. You only look at the end result which is korean pros being better. Also, even if it's easier to get good in korea than anywhere else. The competition is several times harder, which outways that by a large margin. It is much more difficult for a player to live in korea for a while and get top 8, than to live in europe for a while and get top 8 there Right now? Sure because not even in korea you get a lot of help anymore. It's just ladder (which obviously is a big part but not enough as seen by no new blood entering the proscene) Throw Innovation before he got to experience the kespa system into the foreign scene and compare the end results. That would be the hypothetical which is relevant. It's obviously impossible to prove one way or another but people arguing that foreigners are just so lazy don't even consider it at all. So sure if the split would be 4-12 for example it probably would be a bit more "fair" if we only consider the absolute skill. I think there is more to it than that though so the 8-8 one seems decent enough. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
imagine this: Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event. I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 20 2017 00:43 Fango wrote: Even with the advantages that korean pros have had over the years. The level of compitition is simply so much higher that makes it more difficult. imagine this: Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event. I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better Obligatory reminder that Inno did spend a year on Acer, before deciding to return to KeSPA because he was dissatisfied with his individual results. He immediately won GSL upon joining SKT and brought a silver medal as a gift for his new teammate. Those first few weeks must've been awkward with soO, I imagine. | ||
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