EPTsoO advances to his 6th (!) Code S Grand Finals - Page 6
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know. As I recall, Life beat him 4-3. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16017 Posts
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know. INnoVation beat the eventual GSL champion and god of BL/Infestor Sniper in the groupstage, then 3-0ed Soulkey before falling to Hyun. I'd say he was much better against that composition than Mvp. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16017 Posts
but Mvp beat Nerchio so he's the GOAT. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On June 19 2017 04:45 Ej_ wrote: Why does every thread about someone being good converge to "Mvp was the best in history, but he he had to play without limbs, eyes or a monitor"? Because there are people who want to defend Mvp as the greatest ever no matter what happens in the current era, and there are others who think that certain players might already be up there. The narrative of the GOAT is just popular and every time someone of the big players has success it obviously becomes kinda relevant. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On June 19 2017 04:07 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: a lot of Terrans nowadays (such as Gumiho) were still around back in Mvp's time and they were small fries compared to him. GuMiho was the ace player of the most successor GSTL team of 2012. while Mvp used mech to beat brood lord / infestor, GuMiho was using ghosts and crazy dropship tactics. nobody could drop like GuMiho in WoL. whenever the new medivac boosters were mentioned during the advent of HotS, everyone expected GuMiho to become an absolute monster. his name was synonymous with dropship tactics... for some reason, his tactical innovations in WoL did not carry over to HotS. when 2013 and HotS came along, GuMiho was seldom seen in GSTL. when GSTL finally dissolved after 2013 S2, GuMiho fell off the map almost entirely... but make no mistake, he was the life-blood of 2012 GSTL and made some of the greatest games of Wings Of Liberty. calling him a small fry is kinda ignorant. I guess it's easy to look up tournament results and make conclusions, but I watched every televised game, the online cups, his twitch stream... it was pretty obvious that he had some special skill that no other terran had. GuMiho beat Life in GSTL S3 with ghost drops and nukes. this was at a time when brood lord infestor was at its peak, a time when Life was considered unbeatable in TvZ. nobody played the game like him. he has invented the meta over and over, with little-to-no credit. that reaper/hellion opening in HotS TvT? yep, GuMiho invented it. mech vZ? GuMiho carried on where Mvp left off. multi-prong drop harass vP? "this is the first terran I've seen since the ghost nerf that's willing to make mass ghosts in the late-game to control the infestors so that he can win against any composition. it's brilliant. it's beautiful. I don't know anyone else who does it, and I watch a lot of Starcraft." - Artosis, 2013 GSL S1, GuMiho vs Losira G1. GuMiho's legacy is his tactical repertoire, which every other terran copied and refined. unfortunately, tactics usually do not get mentioned in liquipedia / official sc2 history. everyone knows MKP invented marine splitting. everyone knows Parting invented zealot/storm play. very few people know about the tactics which other players invented... for example, HerO's warp prism storm drops, or Creator's double forge play. I guess this is why GuMiho is such a polarizing figure. you either watched GSTL or you didn't. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Conveniently ignoring everything Mvp has ever done. You see unlike INnoVation he actually did things when Terran was struggling. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and INnoVation is a good way off. | ||
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
btw did MVP retire? no offical statement was made if he did, there was one but it turned out to be a prank | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16017 Posts
On June 19 2017 05:11 Olli wrote: Conveniently ignoring everything Mvp has ever done. You see unlike INnoVation he actually did things when Terran was struggling. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and INnoVation is a good way off. INnoVation was the better terran during the BL/Infestor era. the only thing Mvp did was losing to Life and beating random foreigners. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On June 19 2017 05:20 Charoisaur wrote: INnoVation was the better terran during the BL/Infestor era. the only thing Mvp did was losing to Life and beating random foreigners. How can someone even be this wrong | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On June 19 2017 04:07 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Funny thing is, a lot of Terrans nowadays (such as Gumiho) were still around back in Mvp's time and they were small fries compared to him. Makes you wonder if he didn't have the situations with his wrist and didn't lose motivation how he'd be doing in this time. Yes maybe but if you compare his games with TY games nowadays he was nowhere near of him now And with "if" ... | ||
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Jealous
10243 Posts
On June 19 2017 05:11 Olli wrote: Conveniently ignoring everything Mvp has ever done. You see unlike INnoVation he actually did things when Terran was struggling. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and INnoVation is a good way off. Flash is the greatest player to ever touch SC2, it's just unfortunate that he wasn't as good at it as he was at BW. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
The attitude here is what is really wrong. Unless you can give me a proof in formal logic that Mvp is superior to INnoVation by deduction from mathematical axoims, you've got no right to claim that somebody else is 100% "wrong." While comparing Starcraft players isn't a completely subjective procedure, since tournament results and winrates and so forth are quantifiable to some extent, there's a shitload of subjectivity to evaluating how impressive specific players are under specific circumstances against a specific opponent at a specific point in time. Asserting that your thoroughly subjective opinion is somehow superior to somebody else's thoroughly subjective opinion doesn't hold water. Mvp and INnoVation both have a lot in the way of accomplishments, and it's well within the realm of reasonable argument that INnoVation has a better claim to GOAT than Mvp. Attempting to outright dismiss any disagreement simply because you dislike the fact that said disagreement exists at all is a low blow (and a classic example of ad hominem). I'm not saying that you are wrong. It's the argument, not the conclusion, that I take issue with. If your position truly is more correct, then you shouldn't have to resort to such underhanded tactics. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18528 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 19 2017 05:11 Olli wrote: Conveniently ignoring everything Mvp has ever done. You see unlike INnoVation he actually did things when Terran was struggling. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and INnoVation is a good way off. Right after INnoVation transitioned to SC2: -he stormed through his first Code A, beating YugiOh, Bomber and Happy -was eliminated early from the OSL (lost a bo1 to Flying (who later topped his group with Mvp and PartinG, knocking the former out), and a bo1 to Rain (the eventual champion) in KeSPA groups) -placed in top32 of IPL5 (no notable wins, but he was eliminated 1-2, 1-2 by viOlet and Squirtle) -got to playoffs in his first 2 Code S seasons (following his Code A tear), with ro8 and ro4 respectively -placed 3rd at MLG Winter, behind FlaSh and Life and from there his monstrous HotS streak took off He actually did have better or at least comparable WoL results to Mvp when they both competed. He had better TvZ (the best?) towards the end of WoL. The only argument here is that INnoVation didn't win anything when Terran was shit, but he still made ro32 of Code S as one of only 3 Terran players in that 2014 season and ro16 as only one of 2 (alongside Maru). Meanwhile, Mvp's only tournament wins vs non-Terran were WCS EU 2013 vs Stephano, WCG 2011 vs Xigua, Blizzcon 2011 vs NesTea (w/ the infamous ghost game on Shakuras) and the GSL vs Squirtle (which admittedly was an amazing series by Mvp, but it was still Zerg that were the shit race then, being all eliminated before ro8 while 3 Terrans got to playoffs). | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know. Uhm, games against foreigners notwithstanding Mvp's biggest claim to fame against BLfestor is the mech push that kills them during transition, isn't it. When it came to actual play against BLfestor, Mvp did not have the wrists, and we both know it. | ||
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Sakat
Croatia1599 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On June 19 2017 06:41 lolfail9001 wrote: Anyways, looks like we are long overdue another GOAT list. With Life even lower than #2 (which was already low) because he's been a moron. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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