soO and Classic met in the second semifinal of Code S Season 2. For soO, the series had twice the importance, as he looked to move on to his record 6th GSL Grand Finals, while also having the chance to get his revenge for one of his five losses - against Classic in 2014. Classic on the other hand was looking to move closer to his second GSL title.
Both players opened with standard builds in cross positions on Frost. Classic then chose a robotics facility as his primary tech, going all the way up to robotics bay for warp prism speed and disruptor drops. soO's overlord speed investment paid off, however, as he saw the bay building. This gave him all the freedom in the world to continue droning heavily while waiting for his lair to finish. soO took little damage from Classic's disruptors. When Classic finally moved across the map for his 2-base all-in with glaive adepts, soO dropped lings in his opponent's base. Despite losing his own third base, soO came out ahead in the trade, killing 22 probes and destroying Classic's disruptors and warp prism. One last desperation push from Classic did next to nothing and he was eventually forced out of the game when mutalisks appeared.
Proxima Station saw Classic get more aggressive, opening double gas off one base and hiding a stargate on the map. He was able to kill six drones while forcing a lot of zerglings out through an adept & mothership core poke at the front. At the end of the day, though, soO still found himself on three bases against Classic's only just building natural nexus. Classic again tried a two base all-in with glaives, but soO defended it easily, while zergling drops continued to keep Classic busy at home. Classic must have felt he had little choice but to expand and go again with more adepts and sentries, but soO once again shut him down easily. A simple bane/hydra counterattack sealed a second victory for soO.
The pattern of the series stayed the same on Whirlwind, with Classic opening with an offensive double gateway pressure build into expansion. A stargate and glaives felt similarly ineffective to the previous two games, but Classic at least kept soO on his toes and making units. When he finally hit his three base attack with adepts, sentries and an immortal, he hit just before soO's first hydras came out. A first set of forcefields looked perfect, but left Classic without sentry energy. soO's banelings came crashing into his army and obliterated all his sentries and most of the adepts. The warp prism was shot out of the sky by queens and so were Classic's hopes of winning his first game in the series. A simple counterattack put soO at 3-0.
Newkirk Precinct, unsurprisingly, saw Classic attempt a two-base all-in with charge and immortals, but soO's overlord speed again gave him all the information he needed. When Classic moved out, soO dropped zerglings in his main for what felt like the hundredth time in the series. Classic's aggressive zealot warpins meant that he had no defense at home. soO defended the hugely weakened all-in easily and clinched the 4-0 sweep.
soO therefore moves on to his 6th GSL Grand Finals where he will face GuMiho, guaranteeing that a new GSL Champion will be crowned on June 24th.
Great, my masterplan is working. No everyone's gonna bet on Gumiho just because they are obsessed with memes about soO being always second and I will leap forward by whole 7 points at once, maybe attacking the 300th position!
I really hope soO is practicing hard with INnoVation. After winning SSL, Inno thanked soO for helping him practice for the finals. Would be great if he returned the favor and helped soO win GSL.
I expect mech out of Gumiho, since his bio is nowhere near the level of Maru/ByuN/Inno. Fortunately Inno knows all about mech since he just beat Solar two games with it so hopefully soO will have some counters ready. Overall, Gumiho's style is pretty unpredictable, but as long as soO scouts and defends as well as he did against Classic today, he should take the trophy.
On June 17 2017 17:36 Frenchy91 wrote: With Innovation training if he doesn't win this final... Gumiho is not Code S material for me. If there is not a mental block it should be a massacre.
On June 17 2017 17:36 Frenchy91 wrote: With Innovation training if he doesn't win this final... Gumiho is not Code S material for me. If there is not a mental block it should be a massacre.
grand finalist not a code S material...
what should gumiho do to be finally considered as a good player, win 3 gsl in a row without dropping a single map ?
On June 17 2017 17:36 Frenchy91 wrote: With Innovation training if he doesn't win this final... Gumiho is not Code S material for me. If there is not a mental block it should be a massacre.
GuMiho is the best Terran in Code S this season and very arguably has been the best player. He's beaten Zest, aLive, Stats, Trap, TY and Maru, dropping 4 maps in total. If he's not Code S material, nobody is.
On June 17 2017 17:36 pvsnp wrote: I really hope soO is practicing hard with INnoVation. After winning SSL, Inno thanked soO for helping him practice for the finals. Would be great if he returned the favor and helped soO win GSL.
I expect mech out of Gumiho, since his bio is nowhere near the level of Maru/ByuN/Inno. Fortunately Inno knows all about mech since he just beat Solar two games with it so hopefully soO will have some counters ready. Overall, Gumiho's style is pretty unpredictable, but as long as soO scouts and defends as well as he did against Classic today, he should take the trophy.
Gumiho stands no chance against soo in a straight up game. It's obvious that he will go for early aggression before 3rd base. Soo just needs to scout and not being too greedy then he will be fine, easiest final for Soo if he overcomes the obsession of 2nd place.
On June 17 2017 17:36 pvsnp wrote: I really hope soO is practicing hard with INnoVation. After winning SSL, Inno thanked soO for helping him practice for the finals. Would be great if he returned the favor and helped soO win GSL.
I expect mech out of Gumiho, since his bio is nowhere near the level of Maru/ByuN/Inno. Fortunately Inno knows all about mech since he just beat Solar two games with it so hopefully soO will have some counters ready. Overall, Gumiho's style is pretty unpredictable, but as long as soO scouts and defends as well as he did against Classic today, he should take the trophy.
Gumiho stands no chance against soo in a straight up game. It's obvious that he will go for early aggression before 3rd base. Soo just needs to scout and not being too greedy then he will be fine, easiest final for Soo if he overcomes the obsession of 2nd place.
I wouldn't underestimate GuMiho in longer games. He's very intelligent, has great multitasking and good control. soO on the other hand hasn't always had the best lategame. He takes bad fights at times, gets too aggressive and suicides his armies into Terrans.
On June 17 2017 17:36 pvsnp wrote: I really hope soO is practicing hard with INnoVation. After winning SSL, Inno thanked soO for helping him practice for the finals. Would be great if he returned the favor and helped soO win GSL.
I expect mech out of Gumiho, since his bio is nowhere near the level of Maru/ByuN/Inno. Fortunately Inno knows all about mech since he just beat Solar two games with it so hopefully soO will have some counters ready. Overall, Gumiho's style is pretty unpredictable, but as long as soO scouts and defends as well as he did against Classic today, he should take the trophy.
Gumiho stands no chance against soo in a straight up game. It's obvious that he will go for early aggression before 3rd base. Soo just needs to scout and not being too greedy then he will be fine, easiest final for Soo if he overcomes the obsession of 2nd place.
I wouldn't underestimate GuMiho in longer games. He's very intelligent, has great multitasking and good control. soO on the other hand hasn't always had the best lategame. He takes bad fights at times, gets too aggressive and suicides his armies into Terrans.
All in all I probably favor GuMiho a bit.
As i said if Soo overcomes the obsession of 2nd place, there is no way you can favor Gumiho over him. He didnt get into 6 finals for no reason.
On June 17 2017 17:36 pvsnp wrote: I really hope soO is practicing hard with INnoVation. After winning SSL, Inno thanked soO for helping him practice for the finals. Would be great if he returned the favor and helped soO win GSL.
I expect mech out of Gumiho, since his bio is nowhere near the level of Maru/ByuN/Inno. Fortunately Inno knows all about mech since he just beat Solar two games with it so hopefully soO will have some counters ready. Overall, Gumiho's style is pretty unpredictable, but as long as soO scouts and defends as well as he did against Classic today, he should take the trophy.
Gumiho stands no chance against soo in a straight up game. It's obvious that he will go for early aggression before 3rd base. Soo just needs to scout and not being too greedy then he will be fine, easiest final for Soo if he overcomes the obsession of 2nd place.
I wouldn't underestimate GuMiho in longer games. He's very intelligent, has great multitasking and good control. soO on the other hand hasn't always had the best lategame. He takes bad fights at times, gets too aggressive and suicides his armies into Terrans.
(Z)soO therefore moves on to his 6th GSL Grand Finals where he will face GuMiho, guaranteeing that GuMiho's first GSL championship will be crowned on June 24th.
soO vs classic came down to preperation. But instead of Classic coming up with killer strategies, soO took advantage of their familiarity and took the mind games to another level. Really impressed with the way he prepared/played today.
On June 17 2017 17:36 pvsnp wrote: I really hope soO is practicing hard with INnoVation. After winning SSL, Inno thanked soO for helping him practice for the finals. Would be great if he returned the favor and helped soO win GSL.
I expect mech out of Gumiho, since his bio is nowhere near the level of Maru/ByuN/Inno. Fortunately Inno knows all about mech since he just beat Solar two games with it so hopefully soO will have some counters ready. Overall, Gumiho's style is pretty unpredictable, but as long as soO scouts and defends as well as he did against Classic today, he should take the trophy.
Gumiho stands no chance against soo in a straight up game. It's obvious that he will go for early aggression before 3rd base. Soo just needs to scout and not being too greedy then he will be fine, easiest final for Soo if he overcomes the obsession of 2nd place.
I wouldn't underestimate GuMiho in longer games. He's very intelligent, has great multitasking and good control. soO on the other hand hasn't always had the best lategame. He takes bad fights at times, gets too aggressive and suicides his armies into Terrans.
All in all I probably favor GuMiho a bit.
As i said if Soo overcomes the obsession of 2nd place, there is no way you can favor Gumiho over him. He didnt get into 6 finals for no reason.
There's plently of reasons to favor GuMiho even if this wasn't a finals, such as his 6-1 series record over soO this season (of which four of his wins were Bo5 series) and his more difficult run to the finals while dropping fewer maps.
On June 17 2017 19:13 mizenhauer wrote: soO vs classic came down to preperation. But instead of Classic coming up with killer strategies, soO took advantage of their familiarity and took the mind games to another level. Really impressed with the way he prepared/played today.
The whole series felt like Classic was extremely uncomfortable with the later stages of PvZ, which I suppose I can understand with how the metagame is right now.
I think one aspect that gets forgotten is that GuMiho gets affected by nerves too, his decision making in offline matches is usually a lot worse. GuMiho having ByuN as his friend/practice partner might be the deciding factor since he was pretty much in the same situation last year
On June 17 2017 17:51 Zaros wrote: I thought Maru vs Gumiho was a bad series but then I saw Classic vs SoO very disappointing. Hopefully we get a good finals.
Korean finals are never good. Last great finals was in HoTS. I guess Zest vs TY was okay until the end.
Katowice was incredible though. Shows that finals are good when we get evenly matched players
On June 17 2017 17:36 Frenchy91 wrote: With Innovation training if he doesn't win this final... Gumiho is not Code S material for me. If there is not a mental block it should be a massacre.
GuMiho is the best Terran in Code S this season and very arguably has been the best player. He's beaten Zest, aLive, Stats, Trap, TY and Maru, dropping 4 maps in total. If he's not Code S material, nobody is.
He's not all wrong though, gumiho doesn't have the same starpower that a zest or maru etc have. Nor does he have the history, he's considered a 2nd tier player by most.
It would be annoying if he wins this GSL only to perform badly against foreigners at blizzcon for example. Especially if it means that Dark, maru etc don't make it in.
Nice, that means one of them will win GSL, One "looser" will become a winner. Maybe I will root for Guminho as soO with that many WCS points will be in the WCS finals. (Hopefully soO will win the WCS finals, that would be a "better story" than win this one)
I hope the matches in the final will better and longer than the ro4 matches, I want to see some mech from Guminho
I know it does not mean anything, but I gathered their matches from 2017 (online games): 06/06/2017: GuMiho 3–2 soO 05/21/2017: GuMiho 3–1 soO 04/18/2017: GuMiho 2–0 soO 03/13/2017: GuMiho 0–3 soO 03/09/2017: GuMiho 3–0 soO 03/09/2017: GuMiho 3–2 soO 01/30/2017: GuMiho 2–0 soO
On June 17 2017 17:51 Zaros wrote: I thought Maru vs Gumiho was a bad series but then I saw Classic vs SoO very disappointing. Hopefully we get a good finals.
Korean finals are never good. Last great finals was in HoTS. I guess Zest vs TY was okay until the end.
Katowice was incredible though. Shows that finals are good when we get evenly matched players
I wonder if soO will lose this on purpose. just because another 2nd place would fit better to his collection. I mean he must be quite relaxed about this after all this time... Would love for him to win, though!
That was one of the ugliest series I've ever had the misfortune of seeing. I mean if Classic fell off then face of the earth after this i wouldn't blame him. We witnessed a man get raped and I for one was disgusted.
I'm happy Gumiho finally get a GSL trophy, he's never looked better and his record in online cups have repeatedly been beating down the very top of KR scene. And soo overtaking yellow's record for runner up is it's own prestige! Congrats to both players for their achievements.
How come there are so much people who think GuMiho doesn't stand a chance in straight up games ??? He won a lot of straight up games in those TvT series and even though it's not the same matchup, it showcases well the guy can macro as well as anybody (except Inno ofc). On top of that GuMiho has a very favorable score against soO so I wouldn't count him out, I even see him as the favorite ( and with soO's curse on top of this :o ) even though I cheer for soO
On June 18 2017 03:29 Zest_is_best wrote: How come there are so much people who think GuMiho doesn't stand a chance in straight up games ??? He won a lot of straight up games in those TvT series and even though it's not the same matchup, it showcases well the guy can macro as well as anybody (except Inno ofc). On top of that GuMiho has a very favorable score against soO so I wouldn't count him out, I even see him as the favorite ( and with soO's curse on top of this :o ) even though I cheer for soO
They probably did not pay attention to his recent form. I still think soo is better but not by much at all. We might have a 4-3 or something. It could also happen that soo gets thrown off by gumi's weird builds.
On June 18 2017 03:29 Zest_is_best wrote: How come there are so much people who think GuMiho doesn't stand a chance in straight up games ??? He won a lot of straight up games in those TvT series and even though it's not the same matchup, it showcases well the guy can macro as well as anybody (except Inno ofc). On top of that GuMiho has a very favorable score against soO so I wouldn't count him out, I even see him as the favorite ( and with soO's curse on top of this :o ) even though I cheer for soO
Probably because he doesn't have the same achievements/legacy as the other top players. Judging by his current form he has definitely a good shot but people always look at their previous accomplishments to determine if they're a championship-calibre player or not.
so interesting question, how would you rank soO on the all-time list if he finally wins this time? Yes only 1 GSL win but so many finals, it's pretty impressive
On June 18 2017 06:31 Fatam wrote: so interesting question, how would you rank soO on the all-time list if he finally wins this time? Yes only 1 GSL win but so many finals, it's pretty impressive
interesting question, I think he still wouldn't be top 5 (Inno, Life, Zest, sOs, Mvp have that locked up (in that order)) but he would be right outside, maybe 6th or 7th.
On June 17 2017 17:51 Zaros wrote: I thought Maru vs Gumiho was a bad series but then I saw Classic vs SoO very disappointing. Hopefully we get a good finals.
Korean finals are never good. Last great finals was in HoTS. I guess Zest vs TY was okay until the end.
Katowice was incredible though. Shows that finals are good when we get evenly matched players
On June 18 2017 06:31 Fatam wrote: so interesting question, how would you rank soO on the all-time list if he finally wins this time? Yes only 1 GSL win but so many finals, it's pretty impressive
interesting question, I think he still wouldn't be top 5 (Inno, Life, Zest, sOs, Mvp have that locked up (in that order)) but he would be right outside, maybe 6th or 7th.
I mean one GSL title and 5 second places would be incredible tbh. If i think about it i wouldn't necessarily say it is worse than winning three titles.
On June 18 2017 06:31 Fatam wrote: so interesting question, how would you rank soO on the all-time list if he finally wins this time? Yes only 1 GSL win but so many finals, it's pretty impressive
On June 17 2017 17:36 Frenchy91 wrote: With Innovation training if he doesn't win this final... Gumiho is not Code S material for me. If there is not a mental block it should be a massacre.
On June 18 2017 06:31 Fatam wrote: so interesting question, how would you rank soO on the all-time list if he finally wins this time? Yes only 1 GSL win but so many finals, it's pretty impressive
If he wins..
1. Life 2. Mvp 3. Bogus 4. soO 5. Zest
I dont wanna off topic but there is no way you can rank MVP above Inno since he played in the beginning era that most of pro hadn't switched to SC2. Other hand, a match fixer shouldn't be in the list.
On June 18 2017 06:31 Fatam wrote: so interesting question, how would you rank soO on the all-time list if he finally wins this time? Yes only 1 GSL win but so many finals, it's pretty impressive
If he wins..
1. Life 2. Mvp 3. Bogus 4. soO 5. Zest
I dont wanna off topic but there is no way you can rank MVP above Inno since he played in the beginning era that most of pro hadn't switched to SC2. Other hand, a match fixer shouldn't be in the list.
I feel awful for GuMiho right now. No matter the result, his name will not be on anyone's mind between now and the start of the next GSL. The headline will be either be "soO's curse continues" or "soO's curse is broken", and meanwhike, he will continue to be saddled with a far worse reputation than he deserves as a player (see: Page 1) just because his accomplishments got ignored.
i think it could contribute to his greatness if he wins something else soon-ish afterwards, but yeah if he falls off after beating soO then people will just blame it on the curse and not give him any credit for winning
On June 18 2017 18:01 Fatam wrote: i think it could contribute to his greatness if he wins something else soon-ish afterwards, but yeah if he falls off after beating soO then people will just blame it on the curse and not give him any credit for winning
On June 18 2017 18:01 Fatam wrote: i think it could contribute to his greatness if he wins something else soon-ish afterwards, but yeah if he falls off after beating soO then people will just blame it on the curse and not give him any credit for winning
Basically Classic's situation until he won SSL.
Because most of the community doesn't actually understand the game and can't tell when someone's good
On June 18 2017 18:01 Fatam wrote: i think it could contribute to his greatness if he wins something else soon-ish afterwards, but yeah if he falls off after beating soO then people will just blame it on the curse and not give him any credit for winning
Basically Classic's situation until he won SSL.
Because most of the community doesn't actually understand the game and can't tell when someone's good
Even Artosis said he didn't really consider Classic all that great until he won IEM Shenzhen
On June 18 2017 18:01 Fatam wrote: i think it could contribute to his greatness if he wins something else soon-ish afterwards, but yeah if he falls off after beating soO then people will just blame it on the curse and not give him any credit for winning
Basically Classic's situation until he won SSL.
Because most of the community doesn't actually understand the game and can't tell when someone's good
Even Artosis said he didn't really consider Classic all that great until he won IEM Shenzhen
Maybe it's time to admit that casters aren't always right. Artosis isn't a perfect human. When IEM Shenzhen took place, Classic wasn't just good, he was the best player in the world. His GSL alone was super impressive and anyone who extensively played the game then should have realized how good he was.
On June 18 2017 18:01 Fatam wrote: i think it could contribute to his greatness if he wins something else soon-ish afterwards, but yeah if he falls off after beating soO then people will just blame it on the curse and not give him any credit for winning
On June 18 2017 06:31 Fatam wrote: so interesting question, how would you rank soO on the all-time list if he finally wins this time? Yes only 1 GSL win but so many finals, it's pretty impressive
If he wins..
1. Life 2. Mvp 3. Bogus 4. soO 5. Zest
I dont wanna off topic but there is no way you can rank MVP above Inno since he played in the beginning era that most of pro hadn't switched to SC2. Other hand, a match fixer shouldn't be in the list.
On June 18 2017 06:31 Fatam wrote: so interesting question, how would you rank soO on the all-time list if he finally wins this time? Yes only 1 GSL win but so many finals, it's pretty impressive
If he wins..
1. Life 2. Mvp 3. Bogus 4. soO 5. Zest
I dont wanna off topic but there is no way you can rank MVP above Inno since he played in the beginning era that most of pro hadn't switched to SC2. Other hand, a match fixer shouldn't be in the list.
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know.
INnoVation beat the eventual GSL champion and god of BL/Infestor Sniper in the groupstage, then 3-0ed Soulkey before falling to Hyun. I'd say he was much better against that composition than Mvp.
On June 19 2017 04:45 Ej_ wrote: Why does every thread about someone being good converge to "Mvp was the best in history, but he he had to play without limbs, eyes or a monitor"?
Because there are people who want to defend Mvp as the greatest ever no matter what happens in the current era, and there are others who think that certain players might already be up there.
The narrative of the GOAT is just popular and every time someone of the big players has success it obviously becomes kinda relevant.
On June 19 2017 01:25 DieuCure wrote: Mvp was way weaker than nowadays terrans
a lot of Terrans nowadays (such as Gumiho) were still around back in Mvp's time and they were small fries compared to him.
GuMiho was the ace player of the most successor GSTL team of 2012. while Mvp used mech to beat brood lord / infestor, GuMiho was using ghosts and crazy dropship tactics. nobody could drop like GuMiho in WoL. whenever the new medivac boosters were mentioned during the advent of HotS, everyone expected GuMiho to become an absolute monster. his name was synonymous with dropship tactics... for some reason, his tactical innovations in WoL did not carry over to HotS. when 2013 and HotS came along, GuMiho was seldom seen in GSTL. when GSTL finally dissolved after 2013 S2, GuMiho fell off the map almost entirely... but make no mistake, he was the life-blood of 2012 GSTL and made some of the greatest games of Wings Of Liberty.
calling him a small fry is kinda ignorant. I guess it's easy to look up tournament results and make conclusions, but I watched every televised game, the online cups, his twitch stream... it was pretty obvious that he had some special skill that no other terran had. GuMiho beat Life in GSTL S3 with ghost drops and nukes. this was at a time when brood lord infestor was at its peak, a time when Life was considered unbeatable in TvZ. nobody played the game like him. he has invented the meta over and over, with little-to-no credit. that reaper/hellion opening in HotS TvT? yep, GuMiho invented it. mech vZ? GuMiho carried on where Mvp left off. multi-prong drop harass vP?
"this is the first terran I've seen since the ghost nerf that's willing to make mass ghosts in the late-game to control the infestors so that he can win against any composition. it's brilliant. it's beautiful. I don't know anyone else who does it, and I watch a lot of Starcraft." - Artosis, 2013 GSL S1, GuMiho vs Losira G1.
GuMiho's legacy is his tactical repertoire, which every other terran copied and refined. unfortunately, tactics usually do not get mentioned in liquipedia / official sc2 history. everyone knows MKP invented marine splitting. everyone knows Parting invented zealot/storm play. very few people know about the tactics which other players invented... for example, HerO's warp prism storm drops, or Creator's double forge play. I guess this is why GuMiho is such a polarizing figure. you either watched GSTL or you didn't.
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know.
As I recall, Life beat him 4-3.
but Mvp beat Nerchio so he's the GOAT.
Conveniently ignoring everything Mvp has ever done. You see unlike INnoVation he actually did things when Terran was struggling. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and INnoVation is a good way off.
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know.
As I recall, Life beat him 4-3.
but Mvp beat Nerchio so he's the GOAT.
Conveniently ignoring everything Mvp has ever done. You see unlike INnoVation he actually did things when Terran was struggling. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and INnoVation is a good way off.
INnoVation was the better terran during the BL/Infestor era. the only thing Mvp did was losing to Life and beating random foreigners.
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know.
As I recall, Life beat him 4-3.
but Mvp beat Nerchio so he's the GOAT.
Conveniently ignoring everything Mvp has ever done. You see unlike INnoVation he actually did things when Terran was struggling. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and INnoVation is a good way off.
INnoVation was the better terran during the BL/Infestor era. the only thing Mvp did was losing to Life and beating random foreigners.
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know.
As I recall, Life beat him 4-3.
but Mvp beat Nerchio so he's the GOAT.
Conveniently ignoring everything Mvp has ever done. You see unlike INnoVation he actually did things when Terran was struggling. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and INnoVation is a good way off.
Flash is the greatest player to ever touch SC2, it's just unfortunate that he wasn't as good at it as he was at BW.
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know.
As I recall, Life beat him 4-3.
but Mvp beat Nerchio so he's the GOAT.
Conveniently ignoring everything Mvp has ever done. You see unlike INnoVation he actually did things when Terran was struggling. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and INnoVation is a good way off.
INnoVation was the better terran during the BL/Infestor era. the only thing Mvp did was losing to Life and beating random foreigners.
How can someone even be this wrong
The attitude here is what is really wrong. Unless you can give me a proof in formal logic that Mvp is superior to INnoVation by deduction from mathematical axoims, you've got no right to claim that somebody else is 100% "wrong."
While comparing Starcraft players isn't a completely subjective procedure, since tournament results and winrates and so forth are quantifiable to some extent, there's a shitload of subjectivity to evaluating how impressive specific players are under specific circumstances against a specific opponent at a specific point in time. Asserting that your thoroughly subjective opinion is somehow superior to somebody else's thoroughly subjective opinion doesn't hold water.
Mvp and INnoVation both have a lot in the way of accomplishments, and it's well within the realm of reasonable argument that INnoVation has a better claim to GOAT than Mvp. Attempting to outright dismiss any disagreement simply because you dislike the fact that said disagreement exists at all is a low blow (and a classic example of ad hominem).
I'm not saying that you are wrong. It's the argument, not the conclusion, that I take issue with. If your position truly is more correct, then you shouldn't have to resort to such underhanded tactics.
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know.
As I recall, Life beat him 4-3.
but Mvp beat Nerchio so he's the GOAT.
Conveniently ignoring everything Mvp has ever done. You see unlike INnoVation he actually did things when Terran was struggling. Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and INnoVation is a good way off.
Right after INnoVation transitioned to SC2: -he stormed through his first Code A, beating YugiOh, Bomber and Happy -was eliminated early from the OSL (lost a bo1 to Flying (who later topped his group with Mvp and PartinG, knocking the former out), and a bo1 to Rain (the eventual champion) in KeSPA groups) -placed in top32 of IPL5 (no notable wins, but he was eliminated 1-2, 1-2 by viOlet and Squirtle) -got to playoffs in his first 2 Code S seasons (following his Code A tear), with ro8 and ro4 respectively -placed 3rd at MLG Winter, behind FlaSh and Life
and from there his monstrous HotS streak took off
He actually did have better or at least comparable WoL results to Mvp when they both competed. He had better TvZ (the best?) towards the end of WoL. The only argument here is that INnoVation didn't win anything when Terran was shit, but he still made ro32 of Code S as one of only 3 Terran players in that 2014 season and ro16 as only one of 2 (alongside Maru). Meanwhile, Mvp's only tournament wins vs non-Terran were WCS EU 2013 vs Stephano, WCG 2011 vs Xigua, Blizzcon 2011 vs NesTea (w/ the infamous ghost game on Shakuras) and the GSL vs Squirtle (which admittedly was an amazing series by Mvp, but it was still Zerg that were the shit race then, being all eliminated before ro8 while 3 Terrans got to playoffs).
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know.
Uhm, games against foreigners notwithstanding Mvp's biggest claim to fame against BLfestor is the mech push that kills them during transition, isn't it. When it came to actual play against BLfestor, Mvp did not have the wrists, and we both know it.
On June 19 2017 16:57 Olli wrote: Life's match fixing doesn't affect his position on such a list at all. He still won what he won and he was still as good as he was.
Agreed. If there's a list of players that had more raw talent than Life, it has to be pretty small. Sucks what he did outside of the game, but I dearly miss watching his games.
On June 19 2017 03:34 Olli wrote: Opinions. Mvp won against BL/infestor, that's all I need to know.
Uhm, games against foreigners notwithstanding Mvp's biggest claim to fame against BLfestor is the mech push that kills them during transition, isn't it. When it came to actual play against BLfestor, Mvp did not have the wrists, and we both know it.
On June 19 2017 01:25 DieuCure wrote: Mvp was way weaker than nowadays terrans
a lot of Terrans nowadays (such as Gumiho) were still around back in Mvp's time and they were small fries compared to him.
GuMiho was the ace player of the most successor GSTL team of 2012. while Mvp used mech to beat brood lord / infestor, GuMiho was using ghosts and crazy dropship tactics. nobody could drop like GuMiho in WoL. whenever the new medivac boosters were mentioned during the advent of HotS, everyone expected GuMiho to become an absolute monster. his name was synonymous with dropship tactics... for some reason, his tactical innovations in WoL did not carry over to HotS. when 2013 and HotS came along, GuMiho was seldom seen in GSTL. when GSTL finally dissolved after 2013 S2, GuMiho fell off the map almost entirely... but make no mistake, he was the life-blood of 2012 GSTL and made some of the greatest games of Wings Of Liberty.
calling him a small fry is kinda ignorant. I guess it's easy to look up tournament results and make conclusions, but I watched every televised game, the online cups, his twitch stream... it was pretty obvious that he had some special skill that no other terran had. GuMiho beat Life in GSTL S3 with ghost drops and nukes. this was at a time when brood lord infestor was at its peak, a time when Life was considered unbeatable in TvZ. nobody played the game like him. he has invented the meta over and over, with little-to-no credit. that reaper/hellion opening in HotS TvT? yep, GuMiho invented it. mech vZ? GuMiho carried on where Mvp left off. multi-prong drop harass vP?
"this is the first terran I've seen since the ghost nerf that's willing to make mass ghosts in the late-game to control the infestors so that he can win against any composition. it's brilliant. it's beautiful. I don't know anyone else who does it, and I watch a lot of Starcraft." - Artosis, 2013 GSL S1, GuMiho vs Losira G1.
GuMiho's legacy is his tactical repertoire, which every other terran copied and refined. unfortunately, tactics usually do not get mentioned in liquipedia / official sc2 history. everyone knows MKP invented marine splitting. everyone knows Parting invented zealot/storm play. very few people know about the tactics which other players invented... for example, HerO's warp prism storm drops, or Creator's double forge play. I guess this is why GuMiho is such a polarizing figure. you either watched GSTL or you didn't.
Storm + zealot I'm not sure, but he def. Refined it. I think Artosis has credited a Protoss a lot of times, whom he credits the removal of Khaydarim Amulet Upg. I don't remember the player.. Again Creator may have refined Double Forge, but the first time I saw Double Forge was from HongUnPrime on Metalopolis.
Let us assume, that SoO used todays' olimoleague final to gather insights on how to face gumiho in the gsl final (0-3). He looked almost kind of desperate with his weird swarm host strategy, which he could not use effectively at any time. Let's hope for the best in the GSL final...
MVP is a god and he won with crippling injury, innovation is a boring faceless korean so much so that literally he is called a robot. boring and lame. i cheer everytime he loses. like that time DRG rekt him in macro games. or that time soulkey beautifully reverse swept him in the finals.
im a big soo fan but I think he will lose. gumiho has a good record vs soo, gumiho has taken down some powerful names on his tournament run, gumiho is unorthodox. and soo is his own enemy. i hope im wrong and soo wins, but if gumiho wins i'll be happy too, he is deserving. both players are stories of overcoming adversity and not giving up
Gumiho has been around since the very beginning of Starcraft 2. Everyone wants to write him off. Everyone wants to give credit to Soo if he wins, and they want to give credit to Soo if he loses. It's infuriating.
Gumiho has worked hard for 7 years. He FINALLY became one of the best players in the GSL, and people want to make this all about Soo, who has already had his time in the spotlight so many times and failed.
All this talk about curses, and Soo being his own worst enemy is undermining Gumiho whose tireless tenacity and perseverance makes his story one of the most beautiful and compelling in all of ESports.
He never gave up! He just kept working at it!
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
On June 21 2017 04:26 ThunderJunk wrote: Gumiho has been around since the very beginning of Starcraft 2. Everyone wants to write him off. Everyone wants to give credit to Soo if he wins, and they want to give credit to Soo if he loses. It's infuriating.
Gumiho has worked hard for 7 years. He FINALLY became one of the best players in the GSL, and people want to make this all about Soo, who has already had his time in the spotlight so many times and failed.
All this talk about curses, and Soo being his own worst enemy is undermining Gumiho whose tireless tenacity and perseverance makes his story one of the most beautiful and compelling in all of ESports.
He never gave up! He just kept working at it!
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
On June 21 2017 04:26 ThunderJunk wrote: Gumiho has been around since the very beginning of Starcraft 2. Everyone wants to write him off. Everyone wants to give credit to Soo if he wins, and they want to give credit to Soo if he loses. It's infuriating.
Gumiho has worked hard for 7 years. He FINALLY became one of the best players in the GSL, and people want to make this all about Soo, who has already had his time in the spotlight so many times and failed.
All this talk about curses, and Soo being his own worst enemy is undermining Gumiho whose tireless tenacity and perseverance makes his story one of the most beautiful and compelling in all of ESports.
He never gave up! He just kept working at it!
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
What is wrong with you people. Love Gumiho more.
hear hear!
Gumiho is a great guy from what I heard about the Korean scene, and his playstyle is pretty unique too. Credit to him for finally getting to a GSL final.
But like it or not, this finals is all about soO. 6th Code S finals, the most in history, 5 Code S silvers, can he finally grab the gold? The hype generates itself. Win or lose soO will get all the attention and all the credit/blame. His story is just an order of magnitude higher than Gumiho's.
It's not Gumiho's fault, and in fact any opponent of soO would be marginalized the same way. Even Stats last season got similar treatment, though Stats did have it better because he was also kinda a Kong so there was a storyline there with 2 Kongs.
Kinda feel bad for Gumiho, if he wins everyone blames soO's curse. If he loses, he was the guy who was so bad he lost to the biggest Kong in history.
Still, I have to cheer for soO. Too much pain, too much loss, too many failures. He's fallen five times and gotten up six. Talk about indomitable spirit. soO has paid in blood for this trophy.
I always like GuMiho as he seems like a nice guy and kind of goofy/funny too. He really has a breakthrough performance this year after being with SC2 from the very beginning. Having said that, soO's consistency and his Kong status, I really wish soO will make it to the top this time around. There is an "overdue" factor here that can't be ignored.
Frankly, imagine if somehow soO loses again and he retires after this year, it is kind of sad knowing soO's legacy is the fact he never won a GSL despite being in the final 6th times. That is not just a curse but a tragedy.
I hope he improves his play vs mech though. The Olimo final didn't look good but I assume he tried to hide something and didn't want to fully reveal his strategy.
On June 21 2017 04:26 ThunderJunk wrote: Gumiho has been around since the very beginning of Starcraft 2. Everyone wants to write him off. Everyone wants to give credit to Soo if he wins, and they want to give credit to Soo if he loses. It's infuriating.
Gumiho has worked hard for 7 years. He FINALLY became one of the best players in the GSL, and people want to make this all about Soo, who has already had his time in the spotlight so many times and failed.
All this talk about curses, and Soo being his own worst enemy is undermining Gumiho whose tireless tenacity and perseverance makes his story one of the most beautiful and compelling in all of ESports.
He never gave up! He just kept working at it!
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
On June 21 2017 04:26 ThunderJunk wrote: Gumiho has been around since the very beginning of Starcraft 2. Everyone wants to write him off. Everyone wants to give credit to Soo if he wins, and they want to give credit to Soo if he loses. It's infuriating.
Gumiho has worked hard for 7 years. He FINALLY became one of the best players in the GSL, and people want to make this all about Soo, who has already had his time in the spotlight so many times and failed.
All this talk about curses, and Soo being his own worst enemy is undermining Gumiho whose tireless tenacity and perseverance makes his story one of the most beautiful and compelling in all of ESports.
He never gave up! He just kept working at it!
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
On June 21 2017 04:26 ThunderJunk wrote: Gumiho has been around since the very beginning of Starcraft 2. Everyone wants to write him off. Everyone wants to give credit to Soo if he wins, and they want to give credit to Soo if he loses. It's infuriating.
Gumiho has worked hard for 7 years. He FINALLY became one of the best players in the GSL, and people want to make this all about Soo, who has already had his time in the spotlight so many times and failed.
All this talk about curses, and Soo being his own worst enemy is undermining Gumiho whose tireless tenacity and perseverance makes his story one of the most beautiful and compelling in all of ESports.
He never gave up! He just kept working at it!
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
What he meant was soO has been a progamer even longer than GuMiho. According to the page, soO has been progamer with SKT since 2008 during BW time while GuMiho only started in 2010.
On June 21 2017 04:26 ThunderJunk wrote: Gumiho has been around since the very beginning of Starcraft 2. Everyone wants to write him off. Everyone wants to give credit to Soo if he wins, and they want to give credit to Soo if he loses. It's infuriating.
Gumiho has worked hard for 7 years. He FINALLY became one of the best players in the GSL, and people want to make this all about Soo, who has already had his time in the spotlight so many times and failed.
All this talk about curses, and Soo being his own worst enemy is undermining Gumiho whose tireless tenacity and perseverance makes his story one of the most beautiful and compelling in all of ESports.
He never gave up! He just kept working at it!
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
No, you're not accounting for soO's Brood War career, which he started in 2008. soO really has been a progamer (BW + SC2) for longer than Gumiho.
Also you claimed:
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
but that's completely false. When Mech was in its heyday (late 2015), Flash and INnoVation were frequently cited as top-tier mech players (so was Gumiho). Moreover, Gumiho wasn't even the strongest mech player around, that title goes to INnoVation. ByuL, the best anti-mech Zerg around in 2015, absolutely stomped Gumiho 3-0 in GSL Ro8, but INnoVation beat ByuL in the finals (two games of six were mech). Game 5 was basically a perfect textbook example of how to mech.
Even if you're only talking about current mech, you're still wrong because INnoVation has won two trophies in WCS 2017 as a result of mech: he beat Dark in IEM Gyeonggi and Solar in SSL. Even if Gumiho beats soO, he will only have won one trophy as a result.
On June 21 2017 04:26 ThunderJunk wrote: Gumiho has been around since the very beginning of Starcraft 2. Everyone wants to write him off. Everyone wants to give credit to Soo if he wins, and they want to give credit to Soo if he loses. It's infuriating.
Gumiho has worked hard for 7 years. He FINALLY became one of the best players in the GSL, and people want to make this all about Soo, who has already had his time in the spotlight so many times and failed.
All this talk about curses, and Soo being his own worst enemy is undermining Gumiho whose tireless tenacity and perseverance makes his story one of the most beautiful and compelling in all of ESports.
He never gave up! He just kept working at it!
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
but that's completely false. When Mech was in its heyday (late 2015), Flash and INnoVation were frequently cited as top-tier mech players (so was Gumiho). Moreover, Gumiho wasn't even the strongest mech player around, that title goes to INnoVation. ByuL, the best anti-mech Zerg around in 2015, absolutely stomped Gumiho 3-0 in GSL Ro8, but INnoVation beat ByuL in the finals (two games of six were mech). Game 5 was basically a perfect textbook example of how to mech.
Even if you're only talking about current mech, you're still wrong because INnoVation has won two trophies in WCS 2017 as a result of mech: he beat Dark in IEM Gyeonggi and Solar in SSL. Even if Gumiho beats soO, he will only have won one trophy as a result.
Bravo, Journey and Reality were all mech specialists who were better with mech during that period than GuMiho.
On June 21 2017 04:26 ThunderJunk wrote: Gumiho has been around since the very beginning of Starcraft 2. Everyone wants to write him off. Everyone wants to give credit to Soo if he wins, and they want to give credit to Soo if he loses. It's infuriating.
Gumiho has worked hard for 7 years. He FINALLY became one of the best players in the GSL, and people want to make this all about Soo, who has already had his time in the spotlight so many times and failed.
All this talk about curses, and Soo being his own worst enemy is undermining Gumiho whose tireless tenacity and perseverance makes his story one of the most beautiful and compelling in all of ESports.
He never gave up! He just kept working at it!
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
No, you're not accounting for soO's Brood War career, which he started in 2008. soO really has been a progamer (BW + SC2) for longer than Gumiho.
Also you claimed:
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
but that's completely false. When Mech was in its heyday (late 2015), Flash and INnoVation were frequently cited as top-tier mech players (so was Gumiho). Moreover, Gumiho wasn't even the strongest mech player around, that title goes to INnoVation. ByuL, the best anti-mech Zerg around in 2015, absolutely stomped Gumiho 3-0 in GSL Ro8, but INnoVation beat ByuL in the finals (two games of six were mech). Game 5 was basically a perfect textbook example of how to mech.
Even if you're only talking about current mech, you're still wrong because INnoVation has won two trophies in WCS 2017 as a result of mech: he beat Dark in IEM Gyeonggi and Solar in SSL. Even if Gumiho beats soO, he will only have won one trophy as a result.
Bravo, Journey and Reality were all mech specialists who were better with mech during that period than GuMiho.
Bogus was better than him for sure. ByuL was the only zerg to ever beat him in a televised mech game based on my recollections.
That said, no way Bravo, Journey or Reality were better than Gumiho with mech. Not only was Gumiho one of the best with mech TvZ, he also played it in a uniquely aggressive way that only TY seemed to replicate well. He didn't just abuse the turtle style.
Bogus Bbyong TY Gumiho Flash
were the best with it in that order at the end of HotS.
On June 21 2017 04:26 ThunderJunk wrote: Gumiho has been around since the very beginning of Starcraft 2. Everyone wants to write him off. Everyone wants to give credit to Soo if he wins, and they want to give credit to Soo if he loses. It's infuriating.
Gumiho has worked hard for 7 years. He FINALLY became one of the best players in the GSL, and people want to make this all about Soo, who has already had his time in the spotlight so many times and failed.
All this talk about curses, and Soo being his own worst enemy is undermining Gumiho whose tireless tenacity and perseverance makes his story one of the most beautiful and compelling in all of ESports.
He never gave up! He just kept working at it!
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
No, you're not accounting for soO's Brood War career, which he started in 2008. soO really has been a progamer (BW + SC2) for longer than Gumiho.
Also you claimed:
AND He's the only player who makes Mech look strong.
but that's completely false. When Mech was in its heyday (late 2015), Flash and INnoVation were frequently cited as top-tier mech players (so was Gumiho). Moreover, Gumiho wasn't even the strongest mech player around, that title goes to INnoVation. ByuL, the best anti-mech Zerg around in 2015, absolutely stomped Gumiho 3-0 in GSL Ro8, but INnoVation beat ByuL in the finals (two games of six were mech). Game 5 was basically a perfect textbook example of how to mech.
Even if you're only talking about current mech, you're still wrong because INnoVation has won two trophies in WCS 2017 as a result of mech: he beat Dark in IEM Gyeonggi and Solar in SSL. Even if Gumiho beats soO, he will only have won one trophy as a result.
Bravo, Journey and Reality were all mech specialists who were better with mech during that period than GuMiho.
Absolutely not. Maybe, maybe you could make a case for Reality, but not the other 2.
On June 21 2017 18:54 Hadronsbecrazy wrote: funny to think in an alternate universe soO is vying for his 6th GSL Code S title
And considered greatest player of all time by a mile with only a single fluke loss to Dark of all people.
Nah Stuchiu and Olli would still vouche for Mvp as the greatest
Nah, soO would be the greatest easily. But Mvp's curse lives on.
What happened to those alternative timeline articles? If I recall only one was published a while back, with Mvp being kong and MKP a bonjwa or something
On June 21 2017 18:54 Hadronsbecrazy wrote: funny to think in an alternate universe soO is vying for his 6th GSL Code S title
And considered greatest player of all time by a mile with only a single fluke loss to Dark of all people.
Nah Stuchiu and Olli would still vouche for Mvp as the greatest
Nah, soO would be the greatest easily. But Mvp's curse lives on.
What happened to those alternative timeline articles? If I recall only one was published a while back, with Mvp being kong and MKP a bonjwa or something
On June 21 2017 18:54 Hadronsbecrazy wrote: funny to think in an alternate universe soO is vying for his 6th GSL Code S title
And considered greatest player of all time by a mile with only a single fluke loss to Dark of all people.
Nah Stuchiu and Olli would still vouche for Mvp as the greatest
Nah, soO would be the greatest easily. But Mvp's curse lives on.
What happened to those alternative timeline articles? If I recall only one was published a while back, with Mvp being kong and MKP a bonjwa or something
Waxangel being lazy happened ;(
To be fair, what did we expect out of the guy who identifies as a Snorlax?
Sorry to ask here if it's the wrong place (can't find where else to put it). But I was wanting to know a bit in advance... Does anyone have the exact address of the venue for the finals?
On June 22 2017 22:15 Devitaliza wrote: Sorry to ask here if it's the wrong place (can't find where else to put it). But I was wanting to know a bit in advance... Does anyone have the exact address of the venue for the finals?
The address is 997-4, Daechi-dong, Gangnam-gu, Seoul, South Korea. This is the Twitter notice for the finals:
On June 21 2017 18:54 Hadronsbecrazy wrote: funny to think in an alternate universe soO is vying for his 6th GSL Code S title
And considered greatest player of all time by a mile with only a single fluke loss to Dark of all people.
Nah Stuchiu and Olli would still vouche for Mvp as the greatest
Nah, soO would be the greatest easily. But Mvp's curse lives on.
What happened to those alternative timeline articles? If I recall only one was published a while back, with Mvp being kong and MKP a bonjwa or something
Waxangel being lazy happened ;(
That's still the one series I most want to see continued
EPT
soO and 
Classic met in the second semifinal of Code S Season 2. For soO, the series had twice the importance, as he looked to move on to his record 6th GSL Grand Finals, while also having the chance to get his revenge for one of his five losses - against Classic in 2014. Classic on the other hand was looking to move closer to his second GSL title.
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![[image loading]](http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/surfergameover_4760.jpg)
