On April 21 2017 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Dear Blizzard: Please Give Greg Black more power on the multiplayer design team. the guy is a really damn good.
On April 21 2017 04:12 avilo wrote: Command and Conquer Red Alert 3 had this problem for a while as well.
and when Greg Black nerfed the Vindicator ( Allies Air Unit) you said it would become a suicide bomber and said you'd quit the game because of it. neither happened. The Vindicator got nerfed and it was still an important viable Allies Air Unit. you kept on playing and found other stuff to insult Greg about.
i like to "pay attention to outcomes"
I remember that lol. I probably overreacted at the time but the vindicator nerf was fine. I think Greg Black got a lot better with balance on that game from what i remember there was a point where he started to listen a lot to the community/forums and you could see the effects it had on the game.
I clearly remember the hammerhead nerf was something that the cnc3 devs kinda didn't "get" at the time. That was when e-sports was still getting started and the hammerhead was very much like mutalisks in Brood War in terms of if you were really good with microing them you could stay just out of range of units and pick them off. They nerfed the speed of the unit which killed the micro potential...i was really vocal about that i remember.
But then later on i also remember, as i mentioned above, the devs kinda started to "get it" and what people were talking about for the micro potential and buffed it's speed a little bit back to what it was.
None of us really know the ins and outs of the blizzard balance team i think we all just are hoping they really kick the "iteration" into high gear and test more changes that are good for the game and fix things that are broken in design, like swarmhosts for example.
On April 21 2017 05:00 Liquid`Snute wrote: as Zerg, NOPE, nope
ZvP & broodlord concerns come before PvP design concerns. Bringing massive a2a damage up again is not a good change for PvZ. Late-game might seem stale and all, "skyzerg imba skytoss imba" whatever. But do not return to HOTS Blizzcon-patch state where Z 200/200 default-loses to 200/200 P. Different mid-high to top level Z and P players are claiming opposite sky armada is OP, so ... Blizzard should know best here and have some serious stats and number crunches on the 30+ minute high mmr games involving these comps. Even if it still sometimes looks awfully stale, skytoss vs skyzerg is in the best spot it's ever been in the history of SC2 and current balance where Broodlords do NOT get 3shot by tempests is better than anything we've had before. Is PvZ late game well designed? No. But after playing multiple engagements and PvZ late-games in LOTV, it feels like you at the very least have way more power to influence the outcome of fights compared to any of the previous iterations of the game.
Void ray movement effect is a very minor piece and is probably best saved for another day. In PvZ, void rays almost always are in fungal or working more as a support unit vs zerg yolo amoves. Voids rarely play a role in standoffs and speed isn't important here. Corruptors can already be pretty nasty already (in midgame, muta corruptor for example) and they just got buffed. Probably better to wait a little bit before the void ray gets nerfed. Skytoss-skyzerg wise most of the dancing/micro from zerg revolves around splitting corruptors vs psi storm, not void rays. But even that's a pretty low priority to be honest. Zerg almost never ever actually engages until the army has been nuked by pbomb and fungal, VR mobility will not make a big difference here. That being said, as a Zerg wouldn't mind voidrays being a bit slower when the deathbeams are on, if it was introduced I'd view it as a good change. ^tldr: voidrays kill everything anyway when the beam is on when the button is pressed. Zerg respectfully backs off, no matter VR speed or not.
The real threat of this feedback update is in the tempest-broodlord interaction. Tempest/BL range is at the heart of skytoss vs skyzerg balance. Tilt it too far in one direction, like buffing tempest a2a or broodlord a2g ... and one of the races will be done for. Think twice should apply before buffing capital ships even more, especially the damage of an unit with 15 range. People want to fight and cast spells, not be chipped away at over 8 minutes by the opposing player's race's superior capital ship (subject to present balance).
Thor is already pretty strong and very underrated but the suggested change probably won't break much. Terran mech is very strong if swarmhost doesn't exist btw, raven and BC's will probably need some big nerfs down the line if SH gets 'deleted' again.
I think all Terran players can agree that mass raven is really too strong vs everything. The issue is mass raven is also one of the only viable lategame units versus the other race's late games.
Pure mass viking can't counter fungal + air spam, or storm + air spam, the Terran just gets eviscerated from splash and with the recent corruptor buffs, infestor burrow cast buffs, carrier buffs...vikings just basically suck. All that leaves for T anti-air is massing raven (Seeker+auto turrets), and massing BCS. Seeker is really the only mega late game splash threat T has versus free parasitic bombs, storms, etc.
I play both Z and T and know lategames of each race and i do not see how it would be possible for T to win versus Z without ravens unless lategame Z is also nerfed appropriately (which won't happen cause Z only gets more buffs xD).
I like one thing you said though about "people don't wanna be chipped away at over 8 minutes by the opposing player's capital ship."
That's really i think the issue with every race's late game - ravens, carrier, tempest, brood/infestor/parabomb...all these things promote stalemates and then you use free abilities/energy to kill units almost 1 or 2 at a time for the next 10 minutes.
Brood War doesn't have this issue because ground units are entirely superior to air units. You get 50 bajillion fights of ground units crashing into ground in Brood War, making for a really engaging game since you are both fighting for resources and economy, rather than fighting to maintain your ball of overpowered air units that ignore terrain and half of the units in the game (because air units cannot be attacked by ground).
On April 21 2017 07:03 Aunvilgodess wrote: mech must not be viable. Its a shitty turtle comp that is cancer to the game
Just because you dont like it or lose to it doesn´t mean it shouldn´t be viable. I hate to do it but I can only quote a post from myself here in another thread (long post so i put it in spoilers):
Also turtling is a viable tactic in RTS games (ofc it shouldn´t be like the disaster during the Swarmhost/Raven era) so you just have to deal with it. There are 4 core strategies that always should work in RTS games: - Rushing (focusing on early attacks and harass) - Turtling (focusing on economy and strong defense) - Guerilla (sneaky attacks that can catch the opponent off guard) - Steamroll (Teching early to high tech Units) All these strategies interact with each other. If the opponent turtles you rush. If the opponent goes for guerilla tactics you turtle etc, etc. All these styles should have counters for a healthy game.
We DO NOT WANT an unbeatable composition. We just want Mech to be a healthy option because it´s part of the Terran race. Fyi terran´s are Humans. And Humans do use Mechanical warfare even in real life. This doesn´t make it a 4th race.
For example: During the redesign Blizz said they want the Thor to be the main Anti-air Unit. How is this supposed to work with a Unit that is big, slow with a long production time and high cost? A main AA Unit has to be responsive not so slow to produce that the opponent can outnumber you with the air Units you want to counter before you have enough to shoot them down.
Another problem with this threads is when they see "Mech" they immediately think of avilo as if he would be the only Mech player. They only see his playstyle and think that´s all what Mech should be: Never attack. Ofc this is NOT what Mech should be. Yes it is more defensive and takes a bit time to ramp up and that´s totally fine. But there should be a time in the match where the meching player can and should push out, like a wall thats get closer and closer but still not uncounterable.
Please guys do yourself a favor and get out of this mindset "You just want an A-move comp, turtle forever" etc. And please stop thinking of only avilo when you think about Mech. You could even go so far and blame him that people are so against Mech because of his playstyle. There are so many better Mech players like: - Goody Very strong game sense. While he is defensive he is also capable of being aggressive and pushes out when he sees the opportunity, like when he succesfully repeled an attack. - HTOMario Very, very strong macro and also quite good micro if needed.
Im sure there are more but just stop hating on us that just want Mech a little bit better and thinking everyone wants to be an avilo. Instead of constantly jumping on the hate train you should discuss how we, or Blizz, could make it better without mech becoming an unbeatable style. Because, and i can only repeat this, that´s not what we want.
If we only have rush,rush,rush,aggro,aggro,aggro (which LotV was somewhat forced into with the economy changes) we will have a pretty stale game sooner or later. Im sure thats not the intent of Blizzard and players alike. There are situations were you have to or want to turtle, like when you expect an attack. You don´t attack with your whole army when this occurs unless you want a basetrade scenario. A small distraction force could also help ofc.
Mech is a bit more defensive than Bio it´s just the nature of this playstyle because it ramps up slowly. But it surely shouldn´t be only turtling it should also be capable of steamrolling (Note: NOT A-move I mean strong high tech Units) like I mentioned in my quoted post. From these 4 strategies i explained in my post Mech falls into Turtling and Steamrolling.
I'm not saying that turtling shouldn't be viable. But I am going to suggest that you not be able to sit on two bases for fifteen minutes and still be able to compete with someone who is on three or four bases. Turtling should really only be strong (imo) against cheese.
Cheese>Eco>turtle>cheese
I'm fine with some turtling if you have something else that can take mech on (as Zerg) in a straight up fight and not just get rolled over and die.
I personally think there are way too many changes in the list, all going way too quickly to actually judge the impact of all of it. But we'll see I guess.
On April 21 2017 07:03 Aunvilgodess wrote: mech must not be viable. Its a shitty turtle comp that is cancer to the game
Just because you dont like it or lose to it doesn´t mean it shouldn´t be viable. I hate to do it but I can only quote a post from myself here in another thread (long post so i put it in spoilers):
Also turtling is a viable tactic in RTS games (ofc it shouldn´t be like the disaster during the Swarmhost/Raven era) so you just have to deal with it. There are 4 core strategies that always should work in RTS games: - Rushing (focusing on early attacks and harass) - Turtling (focusing on economy and strong defense) - Guerilla (sneaky attacks that can catch the opponent off guard) - Steamroll (Teching early to high tech Units) All these strategies interact with each other. If the opponent turtles you rush. If the opponent goes for guerilla tactics you turtle etc, etc. All these styles should have counters for a healthy game.
We DO NOT WANT an unbeatable composition. We just want Mech to be a healthy option because it´s part of the Terran race. Fyi terran´s are Humans. And Humans do use Mechanical warfare even in real life. This doesn´t make it a 4th race.
For example: During the redesign Blizz said they want the Thor to be the main Anti-air Unit. How is this supposed to work with a Unit that is big, slow with a long production time and high cost? A main AA Unit has to be responsive not so slow to produce that the opponent can outnumber you with the air Units you want to counter before you have enough to shoot them down.
Another problem with this threads is when they see "Mech" they immediately think of avilo as if he would be the only Mech player. They only see his playstyle and think that´s all what Mech should be: Never attack. Ofc this is NOT what Mech should be. Yes it is more defensive and takes a bit time to ramp up and that´s totally fine. But there should be a time in the match where the meching player can and should push out, like a wall thats get closer and closer but still not uncounterable.
Please guys do yourself a favor and get out of this mindset "You just want an A-move comp, turtle forever" etc. And please stop thinking of only avilo when you think about Mech. You could even go so far and blame him that people are so against Mech because of his playstyle. There are so many better Mech players like: - Goody Very strong game sense. While he is defensive he is also capable of being aggressive and pushes out when he sees the opportunity, like when he succesfully repeled an attack. - HTOMario Very, very strong macro and also quite good micro if needed.
Im sure there are more but just stop hating on us that just want Mech a little bit better and thinking everyone wants to be an avilo. Instead of constantly jumping on the hate train you should discuss how we, or Blizz, could make it better without mech becoming an unbeatable style. Because, and i can only repeat this, that´s not what we want.
If we only have rush,rush,rush,aggro,aggro,aggro (which LotV was somewhat forced into with the economy changes) we will have a pretty stale game sooner or later. Im sure thats not the intent of Blizzard and players alike. There are situations were you have to or want to turtle, like when you expect an attack. You don´t attack with your whole army when this occurs unless you want a basetrade scenario. A small distraction force could also help ofc.
Mech is a bit more defensive than Bio it´s just the nature of this playstyle because it ramps up slowly. But it surely shouldn´t be only turtling it should also be capable of steamrolling (Note: NOT A-move I mean strong high tech Units) like I mentioned in my quoted post. From these 4 strategies i explained in my post Mech falls into Turtling and Steamrolling.
I'm not saying that turtling shouldn't be viable. But I am going to suggest that you not be able to sit on two bases for fifteen minutes and still be able to compete with someone who is on three or four bases. Turtling should really only be strong (imo) against cheese.
Cheese>Eco>turtle>cheese
I'm fine with some turtling if you have something else that can take mech on (as Zerg) in a straight up fight and not just get rolled over and die.
I personally think there are way too many changes in the list, all going way too quickly to actually judge the impact of all of it. But we'll see I guess.
I think you missed a patch, made last year when the game lauched, it reduced the minerals and gas on bases to 60%, thats the change that makes turtling on 2 and even 3 bases weaker to someone on more bases.
What's wrong with high-impact payload? I thought you didn't want to make the thor an all-around unit. This change is retarded. What non-light flying unit so dominates the meta that terran needs a thor buff to deal with it? This seems like it's pandering to low level terrans who lose to mass void rays.
Burrow infestor art change fine.
The Raven is a cool unit that requires a different response than the other units in the game. This is not a bad thing. And I like seeing ravens snipe real units. The auto turret makes the Raven totally viable early game. I don't want to see it changed, and reduce Terran tech options.
Prismatic Alignment speed reduction will make it too easy to kite voids with vikings.
Given that void rays are used almost entirely defensively vs Blink timings in PvP or as Medivac/Liberator defense in PvT, I don't understand the reason to nerf Prismatic Alignment... Unless it's absolutely crushing at low level or something.
On April 21 2017 02:37 eviltomahawk wrote: Thor In a very experimental change, we are removing the High Impact Payload option from the Thor and instead changing its Javelin Missile Launchers to be flat damage instead of providing a bonus vs. light. While this does reduce the Thor’s single target damage vs high armor capital ships, it greatly increases its overall damage to most grouped air units.
I swear they tried this before
Me too...
That's weird to do the same again. Ans since they are increasing ( again ) the power of tempests, to be powerful in PVP, they will be use in PVZ and PVT as well and as terrans we could need thors power to to a single target to fight against that. And against broodlords too.
Drop the charge upgrade cost is the wrong way too, the way they think that will increase the number of games with zealots... Adepts is imba that's the problem ! Nerf them and zealots will be back !
And for sure they have to do something for burrowed infestors... Make them more visible or increase the number of available scans or drop the Raven cost. That's insane because we have to scan everywhere, for creep, for burrowed banelings and now for that... They can surround the terran army and fungal in addition with banelings, ultras or ravagers can destroy totally the terran army in one instant.
On April 21 2017 07:52 NBird wrote: Lots of changes implemented very often. Is Model of buffing / nerfing so often allowing any real stable meta to develop?
Noone gives a shit about meta/development/skill whatsoever these days. Some just whine and bitch about everything they can't handle in the game (because they don't even wana try to improve) while the others are just creating work for themselves simulating "support" and "caring". With DK gone it's gonna be even worse because now they "have" to prove they are worthy (aka "we gonna change this fucking game every fucking week, look at us!"). I gave up on reasoning anyone on this matter, it's all in vain. SC2 dev team just shits on dedicated players who actually play the game. Their shity excuses like "we are gonna tune they game till it's in a perfect state" are rediculous. They got 6+ years to reach that goal... What do you expect from them now? Random weekly balance shuffle to attract attention.
Agree that they make changes very often. A new-meta cant appear as fast as they change the balance. When they nerf adepts? A 3-4 days ago and already we have new community update to new changes! Stop changing game at all! Make interceptors cost 25 again and stop. Let the game and players of all skill evolve by themself. Remember - a golden era of BW was after 7-8 years WITHOUT any changes at all! Metagame and real masters of a game appeared because the balance was stable. It maybe wasnt perfectly 'balaced' by itself, but it was stable. How you can master a game that changes every month?
Blizzard, If you are so obsessed with changing the game look at capcom for instance. One relatively big balnce patch every year. So everyone is warranted the game won't be touched for at least one year. What you do these days is just obscene. Throwing in changes during tournaments, w/o any proper analysis/data. Every freaking time "community feedback" thread pops up i tremble in both horror and anger and pray BW HD is coming out sooner or starting to think about fully switching to SFV. And i'm playing starcraft since 98.
On April 21 2017 05:00 Liquid`Snute wrote: as Zerg, NOPE, nope
[...]
The real threat of this feedback update is in the tempest-broodlord interaction. Tempest/BL range is at the heart of skytoss vs skyzerg balance. Tilt it too far in one direction, like buffing tempest a2a or broodlord a2g ... and one of the races will be done for. Think twice should apply before buffing capital ships even more, especially the damage of an unit with 15 range. People want to fight and cast spells, not be chipped away at over 8 minutes by the opposing player's race's superior capital ship (subject to present balance).
Thor is already pretty strong and very underrated but the suggested change probably won't break much. Terran mech is very strong if swarmhost doesn't exist btw, raven and BC's will probably need some big nerfs down the line if SH gets 'deleted' again.
Isn't the biggest problem in the balance of SkyZerg/Toss lategame the fact that your army is tagged pretty much for free and without any risk by oracles? I mean a stronger Tempest would not be as much an issue if your army was not continuously seen by protoss and thus slowly chipped away.
On April 21 2017 04:03 avilo wrote: Tempest cannot be buffed. Ever. It's a unit you mass and accumulate late game. How do balance devs not understand instead of massing carriers you'll then just mass tempests instead, even in PvP late game.
Air units should never be buffed honestly. Across all 3 races. It's just bad for gameplay when air units are stronger than ground units.
Units like the Thor that they mention should be made stronger against air so you can play actual ground versus ground games where units are traded, instead of massed and accumulated with nothing happening.
There currently is no AA mech unit because Thors don't trade vs even a few capital air units like goliaths do in SC1. At least they are looking at this but they should really look at the custom upgrade that i made ages ago that made thors able to counter air units.
Swarmhost are finally mentioned after 5 months - hooray. This unit is complete and utter idiocy and has ruined the game for many players for a while. It needs not one change - it needs multiple massive changes. A unit like this cannot be mega fast. A unit can't be this cheap as it is now. And it needs to have potentially the light tag so that it can be chased down by hellions, adepts, or whatever.
I dunno if anyone has seen me or other players abusing swarmhost vs mech/protoss on stream. It's really disgusting how if you can get up to 20 swarmhost you can just continuously bomb bases with zero counter play.
The unit needs to be eviscerated by the balance team and never seen again. It does not belong in an RTS game.
I do not understand the reasoning of ruining the game for the last 5 months with swarmhosts in their current state. Let's hope this balance team without a certain heavy weight holding them back can start making actual balance changes that are relevant to the game.
I will admit it's refreshing to see a balance team that might actually have some balls again posting updates. Maybe we'll see some ITERATION after all.
I agree, but you must put your money where you stand. Tempests are terrible as of now, try using them vs BCs and report back with a replay. Want to nerf air? Fine then, vouch for the air nerfing campaign and let's start with BCs, Vikings, Ravens and company.
The problem with charge isn't the cost as much as the actual tech and time required. Should zealots receive a proper buff people would start bitching about them too... I appreciate Blizzard's effort but stay frosty, because I'd be genuinely surprised if it went through.
The Void Ray nerf feels kind of heavy handed and from what I understand they're not really the problem in late game skytoss vs Zerg. Void Rays are already kind of rare. Do correct me if I'm wrong.
Let's hope the Tempest goes through so that it can be placed as a complimentary unit in Zealot/Archon to counter Brood Lords. 6 supply Tempests aren't exactly good....
To all the people starting they're reasoning with phrases like "WELL IN BROOD WAR" I'd like to quote Artosis from the recent Dank Shrine stream where he said "Brood war isn't a gem, it has issues just like SC2"
I like the change to the charge cost. Zealot offers a fun playstyle, now we can get to it faster. The tempest change is not too relevant in my opinion. I mean it doesn't really solve the problem of pvp carriers. Sure, you can counter them with tempest but the unfun aspect is that you can only beat air with air. I would prefer a buff to +3 ground attack upgrade so that stalkers could deal with mass air better. Or some change in this direction. A nerf to the void ray is good but I still dont see the role of void rays in the game. There isnt a specific job that you need void rays for. Maybe they are good at parking them next to your base and deffending from drops. But this nerf takes away this identity as well. They are also a very unfun unit for low level gameplay. This movement speed nerf may be for that void ray pvp style that harstem highlighted. Pig has a daily about it if I'm not mistaken.
On April 21 2017 07:07 Solar424 wrote: Side note on the rewind feature: why is SC2's replay system so bad? If I load up a replay in Dota 2 I can scroll to any moment in an hour long match with only a few seconds of loading time, but if I want to go 10 minutes in to a SC2 replay, I basically have to wait for the entire game to play itself back. It feels like they rushed out the replay system in WoL beta and haven't touched it since.
My guess is the way they were storing replays didn't allow them to use random access (any time in the replay) from an algorithmic point of view. They've probably changed how replays are stored to address this issue. It's just a guess though.
I agree though. They should have fixed this issue a long time ago.
It's not that easy though. The way Blizzard manages rewinds and jumps is to store the game state in memory every few seconds to serve as a reference point. The problem with jumping forwards is that you first have to play through the game. You can't add them to the replay because it would increase the file size, and you can't quickly generate reference points in the background while loading the replay because it might take too long or be too much of a strain on the system.
I don't know how Valve manages it for DotA, though.
On April 21 2017 19:08 Musicus wrote: Please don't buff air units like the Tempest!
The rest looks interesting.
I agree. Massing air should be discouraged. I suggest removing 50 hitpoints from Carriers, Tempest and BCs and 25 from Brood Lords. Remove the Liberator range upgrade. Then increase Raven supply to 4 and increase Swarm Hosts gas cost to 125 and we have a perfect game. Well not perfect but at least better than now.
On April 21 2017 11:12 avilo wrote: Brood War doesn't have this issue because ground units are entirely superior to air units. You get 50 bajillion fights of ground units crashing into ground in Brood War, making for a really engaging game since you are both fighting for resources and economy, rather than fighting to maintain your ball of overpowered air units that ignore terrain and half of the units in the game (because air units cannot be attacked by ground).
Has Blizzard ever acknowledged this? In WoL the Brood Lord was in ascendance for a long time before finally breaking through in mid-2012, but I never heard about Blizzard monitoring the unit because they didn't want BL/Viking battles to become the norm. And they did promote the phoenix as a counter to mutalisks, fantasizing about the micro potential and such.
The reason corsair vs muta works in BW is because mutalisks are mostly good when grouped up and in that formation they fall easily to the corsair's splash attack. Furthermore, you can't effectively chase mutalisks with corsairs. In SC2 the way to adapt to phoenixes is to make more mutalisks and vice versa, also phoenixes are faster than mutalisks.
I'm not sure if Blizzard understands that air units are best suited to interacting with ground units, and that every air vs air interaction needs to be carefully designed so that it won't become dominant.
I've seen a lot of games that are like: Viking vs brood lord phoenix vs mutalisk mutalisk vs mutalisk brood lord vs tempest
On April 21 2017 07:03 Aunvilgodess wrote: mech must not be viable. Its a shitty turtle comp that is cancer to the game
Just because you dont like it or lose to it doesn´t mean it shouldn´t be viable. I hate to do it but I can only quote a post from myself here in another thread (long post so i put it in spoilers):
Also turtling is a viable tactic in RTS games (ofc it shouldn´t be like the disaster during the Swarmhost/Raven era) so you just have to deal with it. There are 4 core strategies that always should work in RTS games: - Rushing (focusing on early attacks and harass) - Turtling (focusing on economy and strong defense) - Guerilla (sneaky attacks that can catch the opponent off guard) - Steamroll (Teching early to high tech Units) All these strategies interact with each other. If the opponent turtles you rush. If the opponent goes for guerilla tactics you turtle etc, etc. All these styles should have counters for a healthy game.
We DO NOT WANT an unbeatable composition. We just want Mech to be a healthy option because it´s part of the Terran race. Fyi terran´s are Humans. And Humans do use Mechanical warfare even in real life. This doesn´t make it a 4th race.
For example: During the redesign Blizz said they want the Thor to be the main Anti-air Unit. How is this supposed to work with a Unit that is big, slow with a long production time and high cost? A main AA Unit has to be responsive not so slow to produce that the opponent can outnumber you with the air Units you want to counter before you have enough to shoot them down.
Another problem with this threads is when they see "Mech" they immediately think of avilo as if he would be the only Mech player. They only see his playstyle and think that´s all what Mech should be: Never attack. Ofc this is NOT what Mech should be. Yes it is more defensive and takes a bit time to ramp up and that´s totally fine. But there should be a time in the match where the meching player can and should push out, like a wall thats get closer and closer but still not uncounterable.
Please guys do yourself a favor and get out of this mindset "You just want an A-move comp, turtle forever" etc. And please stop thinking of only avilo when you think about Mech. You could even go so far and blame him that people are so against Mech because of his playstyle. There are so many better Mech players like: - Goody Very strong game sense. While he is defensive he is also capable of being aggressive and pushes out when he sees the opportunity, like when he succesfully repeled an attack. - HTOMario Very, very strong macro and also quite good micro if needed.
Im sure there are more but just stop hating on us that just want Mech a little bit better and thinking everyone wants to be an avilo. Instead of constantly jumping on the hate train you should discuss how we, or Blizz, could make it better without mech becoming an unbeatable style. Because, and i can only repeat this, that´s not what we want.
If we only have rush,rush,rush,aggro,aggro,aggro (which LotV was somewhat forced into with the economy changes) we will have a pretty stale game sooner or later. Im sure thats not the intent of Blizzard and players alike. There are situations were you have to or want to turtle, like when you expect an attack. You don´t attack with your whole army when this occurs unless you want a basetrade scenario. A small distraction force could also help ofc.
Mech is a bit more defensive than Bio it´s just the nature of this playstyle because it ramps up slowly. But it surely shouldn´t be only turtling it should also be capable of steamrolling (Note: NOT A-move I mean strong high tech Units) like I mentioned in my quoted post. From these 4 strategies i explained in my post Mech falls into Turtling and Steamrolling.
I'm not saying that turtling shouldn't be viable. But I am going to suggest that you not be able to sit on two bases for fifteen minutes and still be able to compete with someone who is on three or four bases. Turtling should really only be strong (imo) against cheese.
Cheese>Eco>turtle>cheese
I'm fine with some turtling if you have something else that can take mech on (as Zerg) in a straight up fight and not just get rolled over and die.
I personally think there are way too many changes in the list, all going way too quickly to actually judge the impact of all of it. But we'll see I guess.
I think you missed a patch, made last year when the game lauched, it reduced the minerals and gas on bases to 60%, thats the change that makes turtling on 2 and even 3 bases weaker to someone on more bases.
Just saying cuz maybe you missed that change.
I didn't miss it, I do like that change a LOT.
I still think turtling in general shouldn't be some cure all, where you can build this unstoppable mech army that just crushes everything in its path.
I personally struggle against mech, and unless they play it super horribly, I end up getting stomped. In experimenting with a bunch of different options, but turtling for twenty minutes every time I play with it all coming down to one engagement of 200/200 armies is boring, both from a player perspective and a spectator perspective.
EPT
