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On April 21 2017 07:23 Aegwynn wrote:
New autoturret does even more total damage than before , lol. Classic useless so called nerf, just like the so called pylon overcharge nerf in the past...
It's like 10 hp difference in total. Current theoretically deals 300 damage (practically slightly less) over 7.14 seconds and proposed theoretically 310 over 10.
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On April 21 2017 07:07 Solar424 wrote:
Side note on the rewind feature: why is SC2's replay system so bad? If I load up a replay in Dota 2 I can scroll to any moment in an hour long match with only a few seconds of loading time, but if I want to go 10 minutes in to a SC2 replay, I basically have to wait for the entire game to play itself back. It feels like they rushed out the replay system in WoL beta and haven't touched it since.
My guess is the way they were storing replays didn't allow them to use random access (any time in the replay) from an algorithmic point of view. They've probably changed how replays are stored to address this issue. It's just a guess though.
I agree though. They should have fixed this issue a long time ago.
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On April 21 2017 07:32 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2017 07:23 Aegwynn wrote:
New autoturret does even more total damage than before , lol. Classic useless so called nerf, just like the so called pylon overcharge nerf in the past... It's like 10 hp difference in total. Current theoretically deals 300 damage (practically slightly less) over 7.14 seconds and proposed theoretically 310 over 10.
i thought they were gonna nerf it? Considering it is the most broken ability in the game atm
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On April 21 2017 07:45 Aegwynn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2017 07:32 aQuaSC wrote:On April 21 2017 07:23 Aegwynn wrote:
New autoturret does even more total damage than before , lol. Classic useless so called nerf, just like the so called pylon overcharge nerf in the past... It's like 10 hp difference in total. Current theoretically deals 300 damage (practically slightly less) over 7.14 seconds and proposed theoretically 310 over 10. i thought they were gonna nerf it? Considering it is the most broken ability in the game atm
Yeah, but it was about worker harass wasn't it, with the patch you'd lose much less since it will take 3 shots instead of two to kill one.
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On April 21 2017 07:41 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2017 07:07 Solar424 wrote:
Side note on the rewind feature: why is SC2's replay system so bad? If I load up a replay in Dota 2 I can scroll to any moment in an hour long match with only a few seconds of loading time, but if I want to go 10 minutes in to a SC2 replay, I basically have to wait for the entire game to play itself back. It feels like they rushed out the replay system in WoL beta and haven't touched it since. My guess is the way they were storing replays didn't allow them to use random access (any time in the replay) from an algorithmic point of view. They've probably changed how replays are stored to address this issue. It's just a guess though. I agree though. They should have fixed this issue a long time ago.
Even BW has a better replay interface in terms of skipping or going back to any point. A little strange D:
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Lots of changes implemented very often. Is Model of buffing / nerfing so often allowing any real stable meta to develop?
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On April 21 2017 06:12 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2017 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Dear Blizzard: Please Give Greg Black more power on the multiplayer design team. the guy is a really damn good. On April 21 2017 04:05 Saggymidgetbooty6969 wrote:
Message to David Kims successor, NERF ALL AIR UNITS seems like they've been nerfing air units since LotV came out... which i'm happy about. please Blizzard , keep on nerfing air units On April 21 2017 04:12 avilo wrote:
Command and Conquer Red Alert 3 had this problem for a while as well.
and when Greg Black nerfed the Vindicator ( Allies Air Unit) you said it would become a suicide bomber and said you'd quit the game because of it. neither happened. The Vindicator got nerfed and it was still an important viable Allies Air Unit. you kept on playing and found other stuff to insult Greg about. i like to "pay attention to outcomes"  lol the vindicator nerf was not that much of a nerf..... vindicator was by far the best unit in RA3 if you could use stop micro correctly. It remained a staple allied unit ever since people figured out you could kill multiple infantry per bombing run. Probably the finest and best designed rts air unit I've ever seen tbh. Red alert air was just a lot better designed than sc2 and dare I say it even bw air. In this game evrey unit is a helicopter but in ra3 air units had to return to base after they depleted ammunition. This ment that air units could be incredibly strong without creating slow moving flying death balls or fast moving flying deathballs, caugh "mutas" caugh. I'd take the way air works in ra3 any day it was probably the best part about that game. It also made air units require constant babysitting which ment that there was a soft cap on how many a player could use. Rarley would you see even very good allied players go beyond 8 air units because the micro it required was just not worth the reward. Edit yes there were mecha tengu and copter swarms, I'm not referring to "those" ra3 air units.
Vindicators were fucking stupid and one of the reasons why Allied air was so overpowered in the first place next to the Cryocopter. A Tier 1(!) (vindicator) that is able to kill multiple GtA Infantry with the counter (the AA infantry) barely scratching its paint. Sorry but thats not good design. Not to mention that most Anti-Air got countered by the Units it was supposed to counter. Especially as Soviets with their overpriced Bullfrog that was completely defenseless against ANY ground Unit. BW was much better in this with most Air Units having a weak AtG attack besides the capital ships. And AA Units could actually shoot down stuff, like the Goliath that could also defend itself from Ground Units. Not strong but also not helpless.
See it like this: for the Allies player the Vindicator may have been a cool Unit to use but for the opponent it was very frustating because you couldn´t countermicro. Your infantry Units, even the AA ones were basiclly sitting ducks because the bombs always hits.
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On April 21 2017 07:52 NBird wrote:
Lots of changes implemented very often. Is Model of buffing / nerfing so often allowing any real stable meta to develop?
No. But this trend won't continue for long. I think it was the adept post that they let us know this test map would be coming soon.
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France12911 Posts
Thankfully raven nerf so TvT won't be : "oh shit he killed more workers with his raven, gotta allin or die tryin'" anymore! :D
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On April 21 2017 08:07 Poopi wrote:
Thankfully raven nerf so TvT won't be : "oh shit he killed more workers with his raven, gotta allin or die tryin'" anymore! :D
Well, it's a raven buff. If you react fast, then it's nerf. Yay for another coinflip change.
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Agree with everything proposed here to a greater or lesser degree. Feel so strange to be happy about a balance update, but the team really hit a lot of current problems right on the head.
Great job, Blizzard! Keep it up!
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On April 21 2017 07:07 Solar424 wrote:
Side note on the rewind feature: why is SC2's replay system so bad? If I load up a replay in Dota 2 I can scroll to any moment in an hour long match with only a few seconds of loading time, but if I want to go 10 minutes in to a SC2 replay, I basically have to wait for the entire game to play itself back. It feels like they rushed out the replay system in WoL beta and haven't touched it since.
On the other hand, Dota 2 replay files are significantly larger than SC2 replay files.
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Why not just make it so that locusts cost money like reaver scarabs? They do a comparable amount of damage.
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The chargelot change is a good idea. I'm not a big fan of late game air army buffs in general though.
Air armies are cool, but you can't make them the focal point of a Starcraft game, but right now they are! Instead, the focal point should be on ground armies. Why? Because ground armies have to adhere to terrain which is more interesting. It's that simple. Air armies should be left as supporting units.
It's way too easy in starcraft 2 to turtle into mass carrier, or mass battle cruiser etc... you only need 3-4 bases which on many maps is quite easily secured at high-pro level. This is a problem that was supposed to be addressed in lotv and which, for a time looked promising when people were still learning the new economy, but now it's clear that the new economy did not fix turtling to tier 3 units.
A lot of the changes to the lotv economy sped up the game, which I think in the end is a good thing, but it did not fix turtling. That is the main thing I would like to see worked on in the upcoming balance changes.
The last update made it seem like the balance team was a bit lost. Perhaps they should go back and change the real problem with adepts, the shade. There isn't a strong hatred for adepts because of their base stats. Hatred for the adept stems from the adepts ability to shade around your base killing workers and making you feel helpless and also from it's ability to negate terrain and positioning.
Sensing a theme here?
Air armies and adepts(because of shade) have the same fundamental flaw. They both negate terrain and positioning much more than other armies/units.
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On April 21 2017 03:07 Olli wrote:
Charge being cheaper is certainly nice, but the upgrade cost was never the issue. It's that widow mines still kill chargelots, and charge/archon has essentially no anti-air capabilities to deal with pushes that include liberators. I'm all for making charge/archon a big thing again, but I don't think this is enough. If anything I'd say leave the cost as it is and focus on its build time instead, or buff zealot shields so they can deal with mines better.
WM could not 1 shot things if we got more useful units in early game TvP and oracles didn't destroy entire mineral lines in seconds
*cough cough* cyclone *cough coough*
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On April 21 2017 06:09 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2017 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Dear Blizzard: Please Give Greg Black more power on the multiplayer design team. the guy is a really damn good. On April 21 2017 04:05 Saggymidgetbooty6969 wrote:
Message to David Kims successor, NERF ALL AIR UNITS seems like they've been nerfing air units since LotV came out... which i'm happy about. please Blizzard , keep on nerfing air units On April 21 2017 04:12 avilo wrote:
Command and Conquer Red Alert 3 had this problem for a while as well.
and when Greg Black nerfed the Vindicator ( Allies Air Unit) you said it would become a suicide bomber and said you'd quit the game because of it. neither happened. The Vindicator got nerfed and it was still an important viable Allies Air Unit. you kept on playing and found other stuff to insult Greg about. i like to "pay attention to outcomes" Wait, when the heck, I didn't realize Greg Black came over to Blizzard until now. That's crazy to see all these old C&C folks here now. Was he a recent addition?
he has been working for Blizzard for years.
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On April 21 2017 07:03 Aunvilgodess wrote:
mech must not be viable. Its a shitty turtle comp that is cancer to the game
Just because you dont like it or lose to it doesn´t mean it shouldn´t be viable. I hate to do it but I can only quote a post from myself here in another thread (long post so i put it in spoilers):
+ Show Spoiler +Also turtling is a viable tactic in RTS games (ofc it shouldn´t be like the disaster during the Swarmhost/Raven era) so you just have to deal with it. There are 4 core strategies that always should work in RTS games:
- Rushing (focusing on early attacks and harass)
- Turtling (focusing on economy and strong defense)
- Guerilla (sneaky attacks that can catch the opponent off guard)
- Steamroll (Teching early to high tech Units)
All these strategies interact with each other. If the opponent turtles you rush. If the opponent goes for guerilla tactics you turtle etc, etc. All these styles should have counters for a healthy game.
We DO NOT WANT an unbeatable composition. We just want Mech to be a healthy option because it´s part of the Terran race. Fyi terran´s are Humans. And Humans do use Mechanical warfare even in real life. This doesn´t make it a 4th race.
For example: During the redesign Blizz said they want the Thor to be the main Anti-air Unit. How is this supposed to work with a Unit that is big, slow with a long production time and high cost? A main AA Unit has to be responsive not so slow to produce that the opponent can outnumber you with the air Units you want to counter before you have enough to shoot them down.
Another problem with this threads is when they see "Mech" they immediately think of avilo as if he would be the only Mech player. They only see his playstyle and think that´s all what Mech should be: Never attack. Ofc this is NOT what Mech should be. Yes it is more defensive and takes a bit time to ramp up and that´s totally fine. But there should be a time in the match where the meching player can and should push out, like a wall thats get closer and closer but still not uncounterable.
Please guys do yourself a favor and get out of this mindset "You just want an A-move comp, turtle forever" etc. And please stop thinking of only avilo when you think about Mech. You could even go so far and blame him that people are so against Mech because of his playstyle. There are so many better Mech players like:
- Goody
Very strong game sense. While he is defensive he is also capable of being aggressive and pushes out when he sees the opportunity, like when he succesfully repeled an attack.
- HTOMario
Very, very strong macro and also quite good micro if needed.
Im sure there are more but just stop hating on us that just want Mech a little bit better and thinking everyone wants to be an avilo. Instead of constantly jumping on the hate train you should discuss how we, or Blizz, could make it better without mech becoming an unbeatable style. Because, and i can only repeat this, that´s not what we want.
Link to orginial post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/517874-lets-talk-about-swarmhosts-mech?page=14#268
(There are also some good responses below my post there from Cascade and Jackoneill)
If we only have rush,rush,rush,aggro,aggro,aggro (which LotV was somewhat forced into with the economy changes) we will have a pretty stale game sooner or later. Im sure thats not the intent of Blizzard and players alike. There are situations were you have to or want to turtle, like when you expect an attack. You don´t attack with your whole army when this occurs unless you want a basetrade scenario. A small distraction force could also help ofc.
Mech is a bit more defensive than Bio it´s just the nature of this playstyle because it ramps up slowly. But it surely shouldn´t be only turtling it should also be capable of steamrolling (Note: NOT A-move I mean strong high tech Units) like I mentioned in my quoted post. From these 4 strategies i explained in my post Mech falls into Turtling and Steamrolling.
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Nerf air units, how about buff Thor HP ? :D
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Help me out here guys: What is the damage difference dealt from High Impact to the new Javalin Missiles. The Thor "buff" looks like a nerf. Now Thors have no chance against BroodLords. Any mech against late game Zerg air is going to be a joke. High Impact at least helped out quite a bit. This patch takes late game Terran air and throws it even further into the trash.
Please tell me how this helps the BL, Viper, Corruptor (now faster) transition against mech armies? And don't say the answer is to turtle and mass raven...
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On April 21 2017 02:44 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2017 02:37 eviltomahawk wrote:
Thor
In a very experimental change, we are removing the High Impact Payload option from the Thor and instead changing its Javelin Missile Launchers to be flat damage instead of providing a bonus vs. light. While this does reduce the Thor’s single target damage vs high armor capital ships, it greatly increases its overall damage to most grouped air units.
I swear they tried this before
They never went through with it in the past. The test mod myself and nice username made almost over a year ago with "Thor Hyperballistic Missile" is quite literally this change + a slight range increase packaged into an upgrade.
I dunno if it'll really change much in ground vs air interactions...but it has the potential to make thors really good vs interceptors and clumped air.
Honestly if thors or cyclones or something from the factory is finally able to shoot down air...it might mean the return of AGGRESSIVE mech off of 5+ factories. Meaning you may not have to mass pure starport units to counter mass air, which hopefully would then mean they can tone down ravens imo.
The only thing i see is...it might help a lot in TvP and TvT where the other player is massing high value air units that are lower in numbers...but vs Zerg it really might only help vs clumps of corruptors. It won't do much vs broods because of broodlings and such.
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EPT
