EPTCommunity Feedback Update- April 20 - Page 2
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
On April 21 2017 03:07 Olli wrote: Charge being cheaper is certainly nice, but the upgrade cost was never the issue. It's that widow mines still kill chargelots, and charge/archon has essentially no anti-air capabilities to deal with pushes that include liberators. I'm all for making charge/archon a big thing again, but I don't think this is enough. If anything I'd say leave the cost as it is and focus on its build time instead, or buff zealot shields so they can deal with mines better. Zealots are already good enough against Zerg, | ||
Poopi
France13023 Posts
However, if in PvP mass carrier is the way to go, buffing tempest would probably just change it toi PvP go mass tempest in late, as avilo said. As for the swarm hosts, I have seen zergs play bad (and even admitting it) yet beat turtle terrans that traded very well, just because they switched to mass swarm hosts. On the one hand this is stupid to be able to hard counter a well thought out game plan with one key, after the player traded horribly. On the other hand the Terran played an horrible turtle style into raven/ghost/mech without ever attacking the Zerg, so he doesn't deserve to ever win playing such a style (because if you let your opponent do whatever he wants you shouldn't be able to win). So I don't know if I want swarm hosts not to hard counter obnoxious turtle styles or not. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
On April 21 2017 04:18 Poopi wrote: I don't get why they buff tempests, isn't Protoss already the best late game race? So they don't need buff for PvX. However, if in PvP mass carrier is the way to go, buffing tempest would probably just change it toi PvP go mass tempest in late, as avilo said. As for the swarm hosts, I have seen zergs play bad (and even admitting it) yet beat turtle terrans that traded very well, just because they switched to mass swarm hosts. On the one hand this is stupid to be able to hard counter a well thought out game plan with one key, after the player traded horribly. On the other hand the Terran played an horrible turtle style into raven/ghost/mech without ever attacking the Zerg, so he doesn't deserve to ever win playing such a style (because if you let your opponent do whatever he wants you shouldn't be able to win). So I don't know if I want swarm hosts not to hard counter obnoxious turtle styles or not. Swarm hosts as a counter to turtle play is literally trying to treat cancer with cancer. The solution is to make mech more mobile, not introduce a unit that completely invalidates any sort of positional gameplay. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18051 Posts
On April 21 2017 02:58 ByuuN wrote: They should give zealot +10 shields to make them better at absorbing damage. i prefer Blizzard keeps buffing the Zealot and nerfing the Adept if Protoss Gateway units are too strong. Generally, overall, I prefer to see Zealots used more than Adepts. | ||
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Grippe87
Sweden59 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
You can't just throw a million random changes out every few weeks in an RTS. Let the players figure things out. DK is gone for a few weeks and everything is already going downhill. Adept nerf was also implemented way to fast. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18051 Posts
On April 21 2017 04:05 Saggymidgetbooty6969 wrote: Message to David Kims successor, NERF ALL AIR UNITS seems like they've been nerfing air units since LotV came out... which i'm happy about. please Blizzard , keep on nerfing air units On April 21 2017 04:12 avilo wrote: Command and Conquer Red Alert 3 had this problem for a while as well. and when Greg Black nerfed the Vindicator ( Allies Air Unit) you said it would become a suicide bomber and said you'd quit the game because of it. neither happened. The Vindicator got nerfed and it was still an important viable Allies Air Unit. you kept on playing and found other stuff to insult Greg about. i like to "pay attention to outcomes"  | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
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Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
ZvP & broodlord concerns come before PvP design concerns. Bringing massive a2a damage up again is not a good change for PvZ. Late-game might seem stale and all, "skyzerg imba skytoss imba" whatever. But do not return to HOTS Blizzcon-patch state where Z 200/200 default-loses to 200/200 P. Different mid-high to top level Z and P players are claiming opposite sky armada is OP, so ... Blizzard should know best here and have some serious stats and number crunches on the 30+ minute high mmr games involving these comps. Even if it still sometimes looks awfully stale, skytoss vs skyzerg is in the best spot it's ever been in the history of SC2 and current balance where Broodlords do NOT get 3shot by tempests is better than anything we've had before. Is PvZ late game well designed? No. But after playing multiple engagements and PvZ late-games in LOTV, it feels like you at the very least have way more power to influence the outcome of fights compared to any of the previous iterations of the game. Void ray movement effect is a very minor piece and is probably best saved for another day. In PvZ, void rays almost always are in fungal or working more as a support unit vs zerg yolo amoves. Voids rarely play a role in standoffs and speed isn't important here. Corruptors can already be pretty nasty already (in midgame, muta corruptor for example) and they just got buffed. Probably better to wait a little bit before the void ray gets nerfed. Skytoss-skyzerg wise most of the dancing/micro from zerg revolves around splitting corruptors vs psi storm, not void rays. But even that's a pretty low priority to be honest. Zerg almost never ever actually engages until the army has been nuked by pbomb and fungal, VR mobility will not make a big difference here. That being said, as a Zerg wouldn't mind voidrays being a bit slower when the deathbeams are on, if it was introduced I'd view it as a good change. ^tldr: voidrays kill everything anyway when the beam is on when the button is pressed. Zerg respectfully backs off, no matter VR speed or not. The real threat of this feedback update is in the tempest-broodlord interaction. Tempest/BL range is at the heart of skytoss vs skyzerg balance. Tilt it too far in one direction, like buffing tempest a2a or broodlord a2g ... and one of the races will be done for. Think twice should apply before buffing capital ships even more, especially the damage of an unit with 15 range. People want to fight and cast spells, not be chipped away at over 8 minutes by the opposing player's race's superior capital ship (subject to present balance). Thor is already pretty strong and very underrated but the suggested change probably won't break much. Terran mech is very strong if swarmhost doesn't exist btw, raven and BC's will probably need some big nerfs down the line if SH gets 'deleted' again. | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
On April 21 2017 04:17 Nerchio wrote: Zealots are already good enough against Zerg, Yes, zealots are absurdly tanky. Protoss will just get charge, throw 10 zealots at third hatchery and kill it early game. We already see how they can simply do this in late game, no matter how many spines zerg got. Don't make this mistake Blizzard. | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On April 21 2017 05:08 xTJx wrote: It seems that mechers have the most trouble against big ships, so idk about that thor buff, just make sure to not bring a liberator 2.0 aa. If mutas become unviable again in ZvT i'll just quit the game. You realize that the change does not affect Mutas at all? The only difference is that Thors will do better vs stacked armoured units, not stacked light units. | ||
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
On April 21 2017 05:27 MockHamill wrote: You realize that the change does not affect Mutas at all? The only difference is that Thors will do better vs stacked armoured units, not stacked light units. Yes, for now. But capital ships don't stack much, so they'll probably try something else, better to prevent it. There is also the matter of vipers and corruptors. Make thors too strong against them and zerg will have no way to deal with siege tanks. | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
Burrowed infestor - yes its stupid, but its just as stupid as marines with fast medivacs, liberators, widow mines etc. So it just balances the stupidity and not even sufficiently I believe. Warp prism this issue should be resolved quickly and is long overdue. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic627 Posts
On April 21 2017 04:12 avilo wrote: Yep. Air units make for stalemate / turtle gameplay. Because they are stronger than ground, so whoever masses more air always has the advantage. Command and Conquer Red Alert 3 had this problem for a while as well. If anyone wonders why Brood War is such an exciting game to watch - there's very rarely, if ever mass air vs air games. Like the goal of a Brood War game is not to sit afk and mass air every single game. Sure, there are mass wraith TvT games and carriers in TvP but these things also have clear cut counters and aren't oppressive to the point that the entire game is that from end to finish. Issue with air units in SC2 is that once you reach around 130-140 supply every race has an air unit that is flat out stronger than any ground anti-air. Broodlords, tempest, carrier, BC, liberators... all these units are unhealthy as fuck for the game because they have no ground counters. The only counter to these units is to mass your own air units. The only healthy-for-gameplay air units in SC2 from my point of view at least are mutalisks, phoenixes, and banshees. These units have clear weaknesses and are very vulnerable to splash damage en masse. Also ground anti-air can manage with masses of these units. Like sure, you can mass muta, phoenix, and banshee if you really want to, but your opponent can respond with thors, widowmines, storm, stalkers, archons, etc. and end up with a stronger ground army. The balance team really should consider looking at ground anti-air across the board or they should look at current supply costs of all of the "oppressive" air units in the game. Perhaps increasing supply of broodlords, BC, carrier, tempest, raven, will dissuade the massing of them or it'll shift more supply into player's ground armies to be able to handle these "bullshit" lategame armies. Just a thought. well said, i dont know why SC2 keep this balance changes since the release of the game... they dont listen and this is the reason why broodwar will be played in a few years again in every place. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On April 21 2017 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Dear Blizzard: Please Give Greg Black more power on the multiplayer design team. the guy is a really damn good. seems like they've been nerfing air units since LotV came out... which i'm happy about. please Blizzard , keep on nerfing air units and when Greg Black nerfed the Vindicator ( Allies Air Unit) you said it would become a suicide bomber and said you'd quit the game because of it. neither happened. The Vindicator got nerfed and it was still an important viable Allies Air Unit. you kept on playing and found other stuff to insult Greg about. i like to "pay attention to outcomes" Wait, when the heck, I didn't realize Greg Black came over to Blizzard until now. That's crazy to see all these old C&C folks here now. Was he a recent addition? | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On April 21 2017 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Dear Blizzard: Please Give Greg Black more power on the multiplayer design team. the guy is a really damn good. seems like they've been nerfing air units since LotV came out... which i'm happy about. please Blizzard , keep on nerfing air units and when Greg Black nerfed the Vindicator ( Allies Air Unit) you said it would become a suicide bomber and said you'd quit the game because of it. neither happened. The Vindicator got nerfed and it was still an important viable Allies Air Unit. you kept on playing and found other stuff to insult Greg about. i like to "pay attention to outcomes" lol the vindicator nerf was not that much of a nerf..... vindicator was by far the best unit in RA3 if you could use stop micro correctly. It remained a staple allied unit ever since people figured out you could kill multiple infantry per bombing run. Probably the finest and best designed rts air unit I've ever seen tbh. Red alert air was just a lot better designed than sc2 and dare I say it even bw air. In this game evrey unit is a helicopter but in ra3 air units had to return to base after they depleted ammunition. This ment that air units could be incredibly strong without creating slow moving flying death balls or fast moving flying deathballs, caugh "mutas" caugh. I'd take the way air works in ra3 any day it was probably the best part about that game. It also made air units require constant babysitting which ment that there was a soft cap on how many a player could use. Rarley would you see even very good allied players go beyond 8 air units because the micro it required was just not worth the reward. Edit yes there were mecha tengu and copter swarms, I'm not referring to "those" ra3 air units. | ||
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