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quoting Blizzard: "We hear that Swarm hosts continue to inhibit terran mech play."
In case this is news to you Blizzard, sometimes zerg units ACTUALLY NEED TO DO SOMETHING TO PREVENT OTHER RACES FROM WINNING.
If you are actually , really, making a comment like this, after you have ALREADY NERFED Swarmhosts more or less out of the game, this is DEFINITELY the nail in the coffin, I'm never playing LOTV again.
Have you, ever, Blizzard, happened to hear any comments about: * terran reapers inhibiting the entire zerg early game, resulting in terrans at high levels basically auto-making reapers, * terran hellbat drops just ending games, period. * terran liberators inhibiting the ability of zerg and protoss to actually collect any resources... * terran widow mines inhibiting zerg lings and banelings from having a chance of surviving to even connect any damage to a terran army? WELL BLIZZARD I guess you have to: * nerf widow mines into the ground, nerf reapers into the ground, nerf liberators into the ground, as well as a bunch of other units that INHIBIT terran opponents from having a reasonable chance to win the game.
this is why you have lost so many players for this game. despite the "supposed" commitment to discussing balance changes with the community, still have absolutely no intention of dealing with feedback equitably. there is still a terran unit that has SPLASH damage, ATTACKS AIR, Is CLOAKED, is AUTO ATTACK, is basically AUTOMATICALLY COST EFFECTIVE, and it costs the same as.... let's see now.... ONE ROACH, which * has NO SPLASH DAMAGE, does NOT attack air, does NOT AUTO ATTACK, requires UPGRADES to burrow. Broken, broken game. And what did you do to zerg's best way of countering widow mines? you nerfed them into the ground, Blizzard. THANK YOU for your kind inattention to game balance.
User was warned for this post
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I think you needed more caps lock for them to really understand
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Guys, the reason pro Terrans don't opt for or bother playing mech other than as a "SURPRISE, IM PLAYING THE BAD STRAT!" is because they rely on tournament success for their income.
Most pros already have known about swarmhost abuse since the patch was out, or found out shortly after, and it would never be worth it for them to even attempt mech knowing 1 unit called the swarmhost will essentially hard counter the entire play style with little to no cost and effort.
We definitely could see a lot of pro mech play if they do address swarmhosts though. I hope the raven auto-turret nerf is also enough to prevent the mass raven spam in both lategame TvT and TvZ.
For the people that continually comment over the years you don't want "turtle mech," you have to realize turtling is always going to be possible with all 3 races and that in itself is not a bad thing! It's just a play style choice players have.
What is bad is when the "turtle style" involves resourceless units that aren't trading against the opponent. The best example i can give of a HEALTHY turtle style is how i play ZvT/ZvZ/ZvP with mass lurker, viper, spores, and other people probably do this now too.
This is a HEALTHY turtle style because lurkers are not spawning a free unit from 3 screens away. There are ways to break lurkers and attack into them, but lurkers are also strong enough that they can hold positions better than siege tanks can.
An UNHEALTHY turtle style would be sitting afk into mass ravens or swarmhosts or tempest/carrier/archon.
That last statement always perplexes people because their immediate reaction is "BUT AVILO YOU DO THAT IDIOTIC STYLE EVERY TIME YOU PLAY!" Well, yes, because as a streamer and someone that opts to go mech every game, there is an imba unit called the swarmhost that forces the game to be nothing other than free units or lose the game to locusts.
The thor changes blizzard are testing, along with hopefully a swarmhost fix soon...these will lead to AGGRESSIVE MECH play where you can confidently trade units versus your opponent, instead of going 5-10 factories and knowing 100% you now autolose the game because of locusts/vipers unless you turtle to 50 ravens.
Anyways, let's hope they do something soon about swarmhosts. Blizzard really needs to get on the ball with balance changes.
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Autoturret nerf was really not enough. It's still massable. Still it's massive free damage- someone calculated here that it's really a buff. It lasts longer with smaller damage- so denial on mineral lines (as we now see in ZvT Raven harras) will be longer. This is not enough- it still will be cancerous to play against mass ravens.
Avilo. When will you realize that SH play does counter only your style. Many Terrans being more active with their units (building mass turrets and PF's does not count) have no problem with SH. Without SH Mech would be autowin for Terran. Now, I know that this is your real goal, but i really hope that some day you will regain common sense. I watch your stream from time to time, and what i noticed is that You whine so much about Zerg, but still You win almost every ZvT with your cancer mech. Now, IF Zerg manages to win you always rage about him being a hacker or stream cheater. So the only one and logical explanation is that only with hacking or stream cheating Zerg can win vs mech. Wouldn't you agree? :-)
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i dont know why ppl keep wasting time on balance, blizzard is so scared to do a change.. not like riot, they dont give a f*ck if people complain about a champion, if the see that something is broken, the fix it asap, but you my good friend blizzard.. u dont nerf things until a match up is like 70% win rate for a race, or players doing the same starts over and over again (protoss: adept oracle phoenix/zerg zergling baneling hydralisk/ terran MMML), at least u nerfed adepts, and now a couple of protoss are trying to open robo/colossus pvt, most of them with no success, because its a slow opening, you have to defend until minute 10 when u have a good army and storms.. but still terran have a lot of harrass options, that makes that build a waste of time, so the protoss that are still winning some games are the one that open adepts/oracle and do a huge dmg to terran, thats the only way to win this MU i guess.
pvz is a bit different, at least protoss have 3 effective openings vs zerg, the best one is skytoss i guess, because they dont have to deal with banelings splash dmg like ground units does, still a bit favored zerg match up.. but not as favored as terran is tvp, im pretty sure if adepts all in werent strong, protoss could have like a 40% winrate vs the other races.
last thoughts about balance, sentrys and stalkers should be a bit strong, same for zealots, theyre supposed to be the core unit for protoss, not adepts, so youre welcome if you nerf adepts again (theyre not really strong but w/e) but give zealots some usefull thing, colossus should have a buff too, mbe their thermal lance being quickier for research, or 150/150, because theyre so far for being a good robotics unit, give tempest a buff, so pvp is not a stupid skytoss vs skytoss a+click carriers/vr vs carriers/vr, tempest should counter carrier or vr somehow, NERF disruptors, a lower nova aoe explosion dmg or speed, NERF swarmhost (theyre needed vs mech i guess, but theyre very strong, a lot of dmg from FREE locust FailFish) make ravagers biological-armored, NERF a bit the hydra-bane-ling style, zerg can deal with all the protoss ground tier with that composition almost the entire game. NERF liberators-tanks-wm(splash range) and the bc's teleport make it not usable if bc got dmg 2 seconds before or something, so it cant be abuse on turtle style.
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On April 27 2017 08:53 avilo wrote:
Guys, the reason pro Terrans don't opt for or bother playing mech other than as a "SURPRISE, IM PLAYING THE BAD STRAT!" is because they rely on tournament success for their income.
Most pros already have known about swarmhost abuse since the patch was out, or found out shortly after, and it would never be worth it for them to even attempt mech knowing 1 unit called the swarmhost will essentially hard counter the entire play style with little to no cost and effort.
We definitely could see a lot of pro mech play if they do address swarmhosts though. I hope the raven auto-turret nerf is also enough to prevent the mass raven spam in both lategame TvT and TvZ.
For the people that continually comment over the years you don't want "turtle mech," you have to realize turtling is always going to be possible with all 3 races and that in itself is not a bad thing! It's just a play style choice players have.
What is bad is when the "turtle style" involves resourceless units that aren't trading against the opponent. The best example i can give of a HEALTHY turtle style is how i play ZvT/ZvZ/ZvP with mass lurker, viper, spores, and other people probably do this now too.
This is a HEALTHY turtle style because lurkers are not spawning a free unit from 3 screens away. There are ways to break lurkers and attack into them, but lurkers are also strong enough that they can hold positions better than siege tanks can.
An UNHEALTHY turtle style would be sitting afk into mass ravens or swarmhosts or tempest/carrier/archon.
That last statement always perplexes people because their immediate reaction is "BUT AVILO YOU DO THAT IDIOTIC STYLE EVERY TIME YOU PLAY!" Well, yes, because as a streamer and someone that opts to go mech every game, there is an imba unit called the swarmhost that forces the game to be nothing other than free units or lose the game to locusts.
The thor changes blizzard are testing, along with hopefully a swarmhost fix soon...these will lead to AGGRESSIVE MECH play where you can confidently trade units versus your opponent, instead of going 5-10 factories and knowing 100% you now autolose the game because of locusts/vipers unless you turtle to 50 ravens.
Anyways, let's hope they do something soon about swarmhosts. Blizzard really needs to get on the ball with balance changes.
Pig just releases a guide here on how dark shutdown mech.
And it's really funny how the best Zerg of the world playing the best mech player of the world Gumiho, don't build any SH...
The most probable is gumiho has figured how to play vs SH (pushing when the SH are in cooldown for example), so Dark don't use them as it's not that strong.
When we watch your stream you're always ready to claim balance problem, the other cheating, but never : "i could have played differently and i can have won".
There is better mech players that you, and you play far inferior players than Dark and co.
Still you have always claimed "mech not viable", even before they introduce SH, while you have always played mech, it's kind of funny.
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On April 27 2017 16:23 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2017 08:53 avilo wrote:
Guys, the reason pro Terrans don't opt for or bother playing mech other than as a "SURPRISE, IM PLAYING THE BAD STRAT!" is because they rely on tournament success for their income.
Most pros already have known about swarmhost abuse since the patch was out, or found out shortly after, and it would never be worth it for them to even attempt mech knowing 1 unit called the swarmhost will essentially hard counter the entire play style with little to no cost and effort.
We definitely could see a lot of pro mech play if they do address swarmhosts though. I hope the raven auto-turret nerf is also enough to prevent the mass raven spam in both lategame TvT and TvZ.
For the people that continually comment over the years you don't want "turtle mech," you have to realize turtling is always going to be possible with all 3 races and that in itself is not a bad thing! It's just a play style choice players have.
What is bad is when the "turtle style" involves resourceless units that aren't trading against the opponent. The best example i can give of a HEALTHY turtle style is how i play ZvT/ZvZ/ZvP with mass lurker, viper, spores, and other people probably do this now too.
This is a HEALTHY turtle style because lurkers are not spawning a free unit from 3 screens away. There are ways to break lurkers and attack into them, but lurkers are also strong enough that they can hold positions better than siege tanks can.
An UNHEALTHY turtle style would be sitting afk into mass ravens or swarmhosts or tempest/carrier/archon.
That last statement always perplexes people because their immediate reaction is "BUT AVILO YOU DO THAT IDIOTIC STYLE EVERY TIME YOU PLAY!" Well, yes, because as a streamer and someone that opts to go mech every game, there is an imba unit called the swarmhost that forces the game to be nothing other than free units or lose the game to locusts.
The thor changes blizzard are testing, along with hopefully a swarmhost fix soon...these will lead to AGGRESSIVE MECH play where you can confidently trade units versus your opponent, instead of going 5-10 factories and knowing 100% you now autolose the game because of locusts/vipers unless you turtle to 50 ravens.
Anyways, let's hope they do something soon about swarmhosts. Blizzard really needs to get on the ball with balance changes. Pig just releases a guide here on how dark shutdown mech. And it's really funny how the best Zerg of the world playing the best mech player of the world Gumiho, don't build any SH...The most probable is gumiho has figured how to play vs SH (pushing when the SH are in cooldown for example), so Dark don't use them as it's not that strong.When we watch your stream you're always ready to claim balance problem, the other cheating, but never : "i could have played differently and i can have won". There is better mech players that you, and you play far inferior players than Dark and co. Still you have always claimed "mech not viable", even before they introduce SH, while you have always played mech, it's kind of funny.
You can do mental gymnastics all day, but the straightforward evidence of Mech being able to beat SH should come from games where mech is used successfully versus swarmhosts; and not games where non-swarmhost compositions were used successfully versus mech.
If anything, Dark vs. Gumiho game is evidence that Zergs don't need to build swarmhosts to win versus mech. And you've weakened some posters' position that Zergs need swarmhosts to beat mech. For example:
On April 27 2017 15:37 hiroshOne wrote:
Autoturret nerf was really not enough. It's still massable. Still it's massive free damage- someone calculated here that it's really a buff. It lasts longer with smaller damage- so denial on mineral lines (as we now see in ZvT Raven harras) will be longer. This is not enough- it still will be cancerous to play against mass ravens.
Avilo. When will you realize that SH play does counter only your style. Many Terrans being more active with their units (building mass turrets and PF's does not count) have no problem with SH. Without SH Mech would be autowin for Terran. Now, I know that this is your real goal, but i really hope that some day you will regain common sense. I watch your stream from time to time, and what i noticed is that You whine so much about Zerg, but still You win almost every ZvT with your cancer mech. Now, IF Zerg manages to win you always rage about him being a hacker or stream cheater. So the only one and logical explanation is that only with hacking or stream cheating Zerg can win vs mech. Wouldn't you agree? :-)
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It's nice to see that after 3 iterations of the game and countless patches Blizzard still has yet to find a way to make the Thor effective vs anything but at least they are still trying...
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On April 29 2017 12:53 NKexquisite wrote:
It's nice to see that after 3 iterations of the game and countless patches Blizzard still has yet to find a way to make the Thor effective vs anything but at least they are still trying...
its almost as if slow moving hero units replacing the goliath was a bad idea
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On April 27 2017 08:53 avilo wrote:
Guys, the reason pro Terrans don't opt for or bother playing mech other than as a "SURPRISE, IM PLAYING THE BAD STRAT!" is because they rely on tournament success for their income.
Most pros already have known about swarmhost abuse since the patch was out, or found out shortly after, and it would never be worth it for them to even attempt mech knowing 1 unit called the swarmhost will essentially hard counter the entire play style with little to no cost and effort.
We definitely could see a lot of pro mech play if they do address swarmhosts though. I hope the raven auto-turret nerf is also enough to prevent the mass raven spam in both lategame TvT and TvZ.
For the people that continually comment over the years you don't want "turtle mech," you have to realize turtling is always going to be possible with all 3 races and that in itself is not a bad thing! It's just a play style choice players have.
What is bad is when the "turtle style" involves resourceless units that aren't trading against the opponent. The best example i can give of a HEALTHY turtle style is how i play ZvT/ZvZ/ZvP with mass lurker, viper, spores, and other people probably do this now too.
This is a HEALTHY turtle style because lurkers are not spawning a free unit from 3 screens away. There are ways to break lurkers and attack into them, but lurkers are also strong enough that they can hold positions better than siege tanks can.
An UNHEALTHY turtle style would be sitting afk into mass ravens or swarmhosts or tempest/carrier/archon.
That last statement always perplexes people because their immediate reaction is "BUT AVILO YOU DO THAT IDIOTIC STYLE EVERY TIME YOU PLAY!" Well, yes, because as a streamer and someone that opts to go mech every game, there is an imba unit called the swarmhost that forces the game to be nothing other than free units or lose the game to locusts.
The thor changes blizzard are testing, along with hopefully a swarmhost fix soon...these will lead to AGGRESSIVE MECH play where you can confidently trade units versus your opponent, instead of going 5-10 factories and knowing 100% you now autolose the game because of locusts/vipers unless you turtle to 50 ravens.
Anyways, let's hope they do something soon about swarmhosts. Blizzard really needs to get on the ball with balance changes.
Tempest/Carrier/Archon doesn't involve free units, Mass Ravens kind of does but there's still energy management. Still don't see how either are unhealthy by your definition.
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Here are some ways to make mech more viable. To me, there are two ways to approach this.
A. "A more harass heavy mech"
1. A speed increase to Hellions would make their stick and move a more viable option. LOTV's economy increase has meant that hellions are much less useful in the past, as any standard army clump wards them off. The reaper bomb was added specifically because of this reason, while the hellion had no change.
2. Lowering the damage point (the time between when a unit can attack and when it actually does attack) of Hellions would mean that they can do more damage to mineral lines when they dive in, even for a kamikaze style attack.
3. A dps increase to the air damage of Cyclones would mean mech can get out on the map without danger of losing all the hellions and cyclones for next to nothing.
Any one of these increases would make speed Banshees more powerful, since the main issue with them right now is an opponent who is unbothered by harass will have so much army and static defense strength that no amount of banshees will do much good or something like 4-6 infestors being out makes them a foolish investment.
B. "A more turtle-heavy mech"
1. This is where tweaking the Thor will drive mech. The Thor is just about the turtle-eyest unit in the game with its slow movement and slow attack speed. The design of the Thor and the Seige Tank are the two main factors that make mech require turtle play.
I would personally be more in favor of (A), give mech the option of simple map control and harass options rather than the reliance on the turtle style.
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EPT
