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On April 24 2017 05:17 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 05:03 Solar424 wrote:On April 24 2017 04:35 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Enough Concussive Shells should stun Ultras.
The interplay between bio and Ultras would be more fun this way.
Ultras are supposed to be this giant, DGAF unit that forces the Terran to play differently. But sure, let's make 3/3 bio counter everything  I hope you do realize that terrans need to produce a lot of bio in order to have a shot at winning the game, if you render bio useless once ultras are out, it's terribly bad game design? It's what happened before tankivacs, but since liberators were also stupidly good and you could open aggressively with reapers it evened things out balance wise, but it was still horrible design wise.
Ghosts and Liberators are things that exist. There's no rule saying that Terran can only make Marines and Marauders for damage.
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On April 24 2017 06:04 wiNgiAN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 06:00 Lexender wrote:On April 24 2017 05:50 wiNgiAN wrote:
hey blizzard, theres a good idea, why dont u make zealots biological? i think this will solve in a huge way vs ling-hydra-bane (unstoppable) style, you see how zerg deal with most of protoss army tiers just with that composition? its because baneling counter every single protoss gate units (and some of robo too), so this actually will force zerg to transitioning tier units and dont be comfortable doing the same style the whole game (and win). 1) Zealots are already biological. 2) Being biological makes no difference for banes, being a light unit does. I don't know about hydras/banes countering everything but neither of your statements make any sense. my point was "only biological", miss type
The other guy's point still stands, banes do + damage to light units. So you could make everything in the game biological and it wouldn't matter, they'd do the exact same damage they currently do
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On April 24 2017 06:27 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 06:04 wiNgiAN wrote:On April 24 2017 06:00 Lexender wrote:On April 24 2017 05:50 wiNgiAN wrote:
hey blizzard, theres a good idea, why dont u make zealots biological? i think this will solve in a huge way vs ling-hydra-bane (unstoppable) style, you see how zerg deal with most of protoss army tiers just with that composition? its because baneling counter every single protoss gate units (and some of robo too), so this actually will force zerg to transitioning tier units and dont be comfortable doing the same style the whole game (and win). 1) Zealots are already biological. 2) Being biological makes no difference for banes, being a light unit does. I don't know about hydras/banes countering everything but neither of your statements make any sense. my point was "only biological", miss type The other guy's point still stands, banes do + damage to light units. So you could make everything in the game biological and it wouldn't matter, they'd do the exact same damage they currently do
they do plus dmg vs light units, but if zealots were just a type: bio unit, bane wouldnt do the same dmg.
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France13012 Posts
On April 24 2017 06:11 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 05:17 Poopi wrote:On April 24 2017 05:03 Solar424 wrote:On April 24 2017 04:35 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Enough Concussive Shells should stun Ultras.
The interplay between bio and Ultras would be more fun this way.
Ultras are supposed to be this giant, DGAF unit that forces the Terran to play differently. But sure, let's make 3/3 bio counter everything I hope you do realize that terrans need to produce a lot of bio in order to have a shot at winning the game, if you render bio useless once ultras are out, it's terribly bad game design? It's what happened before tankivacs, but since liberators were also stupidly good and you could open aggressively with reapers it evened things out balance wise, but it was still horrible design wise. Ghosts and Liberators are things that exist. There's no rule saying that Terran can only make Marines and Marauders for damage.
The problem is not if ghosts or liberators are good. The problem is that MM were needed so you had to produce them BUT once ultras were out, even if you had more army (so outplayed your opponent), your core units became almost useless.
That's bad design because it's basically: "you have to do this! And now it's useless haha! Pls buy nova missions"
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On April 24 2017 09:01 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 06:11 Solar424 wrote:On April 24 2017 05:17 Poopi wrote:On April 24 2017 05:03 Solar424 wrote:On April 24 2017 04:35 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Enough Concussive Shells should stun Ultras.
The interplay between bio and Ultras would be more fun this way.
Ultras are supposed to be this giant, DGAF unit that forces the Terran to play differently. But sure, let's make 3/3 bio counter everything I hope you do realize that terrans need to produce a lot of bio in order to have a shot at winning the game, if you render bio useless once ultras are out, it's terribly bad game design? It's what happened before tankivacs, but since liberators were also stupidly good and you could open aggressively with reapers it evened things out balance wise, but it was still horrible design wise. Ghosts and Liberators are things that exist. There's no rule saying that Terran can only make Marines and Marauders for damage. The problem is not if ghosts or liberators are good. The problem is that MM were needed so you had to produce them BUT once ultras were out, even if you had more army (so outplayed your opponent), your core units became almost useless. That's bad design because it's basically: "you have to do this! And now it's useless haha! Pls buy nova missions"
What do the nova missions have to do with ultras?
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On April 24 2017 09:12 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 09:01 Poopi wrote:On April 24 2017 06:11 Solar424 wrote:On April 24 2017 05:17 Poopi wrote:On April 24 2017 05:03 Solar424 wrote:On April 24 2017 04:35 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Enough Concussive Shells should stun Ultras.
The interplay between bio and Ultras would be more fun this way.
Ultras are supposed to be this giant, DGAF unit that forces the Terran to play differently. But sure, let's make 3/3 bio counter everything I hope you do realize that terrans need to produce a lot of bio in order to have a shot at winning the game, if you render bio useless once ultras are out, it's terribly bad game design? It's what happened before tankivacs, but since liberators were also stupidly good and you could open aggressively with reapers it evened things out balance wise, but it was still horrible design wise. Ghosts and Liberators are things that exist. There's no rule saying that Terran can only make Marines and Marauders for damage. The problem is not if ghosts or liberators are good. The problem is that MM were needed so you had to produce them BUT once ultras were out, even if you had more army (so outplayed your opponent), your core units became almost useless. That's bad design because it's basically: "you have to do this! And now it's useless haha! Pls buy nova missions" What do the nova missions have to do with ultras?
and you assume that because you have more army you 'outplayed' your opponent as if to say macro was the only part of this game?
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On April 23 2017 17:45 BRAT_OK wrote:
Why they are nerfed thors against light? Every upgrade can add +1 +2 +3 against light and its will be good.
Blizzard, give sensor tower power - warp prism cant did warp in sensor tower range, only drop. In late game warp prism too good.
A very interesting suggestion. Are you the real ex progamer?
Anyway blizzard will never value good proposals like this; years ago they should have eliminated the warping.
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On April 24 2017 10:15 Hannibaal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2017 17:45 BRAT_OK wrote:
Why they are nerfed thors against light? Every upgrade can add +1 +2 +3 against light and its will be good.
Blizzard, give sensor tower power - warp prism cant did warp in sensor tower range, only drop. In late game warp prism too good.
A very interesting suggestion. Are you the real ex progamer? Anyway blizzard will never value good proposals like this; years ago they should have eliminated the warping.
I would find it very unusual that the real brat_ok would be here saying things like, "Sensor towers should power down warp prisms, because that suggestion comes so out of the blue.
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On April 24 2017 09:01 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2017 06:11 Solar424 wrote:On April 24 2017 05:17 Poopi wrote:On April 24 2017 05:03 Solar424 wrote:On April 24 2017 04:35 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Enough Concussive Shells should stun Ultras.
The interplay between bio and Ultras would be more fun this way.
Ultras are supposed to be this giant, DGAF unit that forces the Terran to play differently. But sure, let's make 3/3 bio counter everything I hope you do realize that terrans need to produce a lot of bio in order to have a shot at winning the game, if you render bio useless once ultras are out, it's terribly bad game design? It's what happened before tankivacs, but since liberators were also stupidly good and you could open aggressively with reapers it evened things out balance wise, but it was still horrible design wise. Ghosts and Liberators are things that exist. There's no rule saying that Terran can only make Marines and Marauders for damage. The problem is not if ghosts or liberators are good. The problem is that MM were needed so you had to produce them BUT once ultras were out, even if you had more army (so outplayed your opponent), your core units became almost useless. That's bad design because it's basically: "you have to do this! And now it's useless haha! Pls buy nova missions"
It's not outplaying your opponent if you have the wrong army units. When the transition to Ultras is seen, or suspected, you need to have a better plan than more MM.
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Even if the ultras are out, they still need the plating to be effective.
Bio still works extremely well in drops to buy time for transition and dumping supplies.
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France13012 Posts
They didn't work before they got patched so before 3.8.
It just shows that Blizzard made poor design decisions over and over again, so we shouldn't hope too much at this point.
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Rewind feature is excellent
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On April 24 2017 18:41 xtorn wrote:
Rewind feature is excellent
That's true! This feature needs more love! I think it will be great
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btw, ravagers should be armored, so immortals and stalkers could be useful.
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The damage point of Thors need to be lowered, both for air attack and ground attack, to make them more useful. (Damage point refers to the time between when a unit can attack another unit and when that attack actually begins.) For reference, see game 3 of Maru vs. Super in the GSL today (April 26). He makes them early and they have some use, then they get crushed by equal numbers of immortals (which are easier to produce and cost less).
The Thor is very expensive at 300/200 compared to its utility, and takes 43 seconds of a factory with a tech lab on it.
This damage point issue is the main problem with Thors in TvZ as well. By the time an enemy is within range and the Thor draws a bead, the unit is probably either already dead or so near death that the powerful shot of the Thor is overkill.
I think a more warranted "experimental" test would be for Thors to be able to simultaneously attack ground and air rather than the current test. I don't think the current test will make much difference.
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Yup, the thor is slow/clunky, expensive and has so many counters. Make it less derpy would help a lot.
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^ Brilliant post about the Thor from Ransom and I also agree with Pino, the Thor sucks, it needs an overhaul, might as well just get it out of the way with the new balance team.
Also things that can be done to improve the flow of the match ups
1) Redesign Oracles with high range and lower damage to light units so it functions more like the Banshee would, not being hard countered by static defense but a game ender without it, middle grounds are best.
- Make Oracle detect innately to remove the need for Robo
- Redesign Revelation to function like parasite from Brood War
- Nerf Stasis field area and duration but reduce the mana cost proportionally, make it function like spider mines.
2) Nerf Blinding Cloud vs stationary units (Siege Tanks) but make them better vs. units that can be micro'd out of the cloud by changing the Blind to a flat range reduction of 5, this way Siege Tanks will have a much diminished but not hard countered range of 8 and things like Marines will be brought down to 1. Also make it so that units that leave the Cloud will be blinded temporarily and retain the -5 range, this effect dissipates after 1.5 seconds.
3) Remove the Swarm Host from the game completely, I'm a life time Zerg player and I'm here to tell you, that unit is bad from the ground up, design wise, balance wise, please remove it from the game and stop balancing the game around shitty free units, nobody likes to watch them, nobody likes to play against them, come on.
4) Redesign the Sentry to function more as a offensive based, mobile Protoss medic, to bolster Gateway armies throughout the game.
- Remove FF and replace it with Shield Battery, Ravagers being in the game makes FF a dumb binary reaction in LOTV, the Sentry deserves something better. (ex. Shield Battery replenishes 35 shield immediately and gives 35 over 8 seconds)
- Give Sentry innate 1 armor
- Buff Sentry laser beam to actually do SOME damage, not alot, but more then it does now.
5) Buff Stalker DPS vs. light so they don't look so hopelessly pathetic vs. post mid game M/M/M armies
6) Remove invulnerable Nydus and replace it with a new Nydus worm that is can be killed, is cheaper, can only transport 16 units, and can be cancelled for a 50% resource refund
7) Remove Psionic Transfer from Adepts, give them increased movement speed, Resonating Glaives now 200/200 and gives attack speed bonus and a +2 vs. light units
These are just things off the top of my head, like I said I'm a Zerg player and Protoss is just terrible in LOTV, not balance wise but design wise they are a complete and total mess.
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played some testing maps and here are my thoughts :
-thor change isnt really that relevant, u dont really see it in use and the high impact payload mode had more damage vs tempest etc.
-void ray slow prismatic alligment is actually nice indierct nerf to the unit.
-Faster zealot charge is really cool idea, it enables for earlier attacks/skirmishes with zealots
-Tempest buff feels liek its not really needed.
-raven auto turret nerf is good enaugh that single turret cant shoot so any workers in seconds so its really cool.
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And here i would like to post some of my suggestions to the game:
I think mech could use a bit mroe help vs air specially in tvp where if you want to go mech and protoss opponent opens phoenix u cant apply much pressure, and for sure you are gonna find urself fighting vs carriers. So i would like to adress Cyclone: add normal anti air attack like 18 damage per shot with 7 range and not really fast attack speed OR ( this option i write nearly under all community updates) change lock on so that its time when cyclone shoots is changed from 14 seconds to 7 seconds , so cyclones damage is actually visiblie ( it would be 16 damage instead dof 8 per shot) .
Also adept is still in need to be nerfed, its a unit that just has option to cut distance between main protoss army and terran siege tank lines, its easy to break terran mid game mech push with just shade on top of tanks and presplit then engage with main army. Also really cool suggestion is to make all upgreads on armory mixed again , and make vikings available on factory level but just in mech form and lets say u need starport to transform. Then we have warp prism , its cool unit, has insane micro potential, but i would give it slow warpin so its not nearly insta gg with warp in to main of T/Z while both players are nearly maxed out. Protoss zealots should be a bit more beefy or buff them in some funky way like increase their attack speed.Also zerg: Swarm host needs a nerf badly, at first movement speed is to fast, and then we have its interaction with mech which is terrible as for now when Zerg gets swarm host meching terran has to instantly switch from factory to all starports.I m not really sure how to change swarm hosts... maby lower the dps of locust at start and increase cost of the unit.I think viper blinding cloud duration time could use a nerf.
( By the way im master protoss player ^^ ) I would really like to hear your opinion on my thoughts
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^ the best way to change the Swarm Host is to remove it from the game, it's impossible to balance a free unit spawning unit, it's either imbalanced weak or strong, it currently fills no real role in the Zerg arsenal besides being OP vs. Mech and crap vs. almost everything else outside of wonky GSL level Swarm Host plays that also looks OP when pulled off well.
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On April 27 2017 03:48 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
The damage point of Thors need to be lowered, both for air attack and ground attack, to make them more useful. (Damage point refers to the time between when a unit can attack another unit and when that attack actually begins.) For reference, see game 3 of Maru vs. Super in the GSL today (April 26). He makes them early and they have some use, then they get crushed by equal numbers of immortals (which are easier to produce and cost less).
The Thor is very expensive at 300/200 compared to its utility, and takes 43 seconds of a factory with a tech lab on it.
This damage point issue is the main problem with Thors in TvZ as well. By the time an enemy is within range and the Thor draws a bead, the unit is probably either already dead or so near death that the powerful shot of the Thor is overkill.
I think a more warranted "experimental" test would be for Thors to be able to simultaneously attack ground and air rather than the current test. I don't think the current test will make much difference.
Not sure about the damage point change, but the Thor has zero micro potential. That's for sure.
On April 27 2017 04:54 jpg06051992 wrote:
^ Brilliant post about the Thor from Ransom and I also agree with Pino, the Thor sucks, it needs an overhaul, might as well just get it out of the way with the new balance team.
Also things that can be done to improve the flow of the match ups
1) Redesign Oracles with high range and lower damage to light units so it functions more like the Banshee would, not being hard countered by static defense but a game ender without it, middle grounds are best.
- Make Oracle detect innately to remove the need for Robo
- Redesign Revelation to function like parasite from Brood War
- Nerf Stasis field area and duration but reduce the mana cost proportionally, make it function like spider mines.
2) Nerf Blinding Cloud vs stationary units (Siege Tanks) but make them better vs. units that can be micro'd out of the cloud by changing the Blind to a flat range reduction of 5, this way Siege Tanks will have a much diminished but not hard countered range of 8 and things like Marines will be brought down to 1. Also make it so that units that leave the Cloud will be blinded temporarily and retain the -5 range, this effect dissipates after 1.5 seconds.
3) Remove the Swarm Host from the game completely, I'm a life time Zerg player and I'm here to tell you, that unit is bad from the ground up, design wise, balance wise, please remove it from the game and stop balancing the game around shitty free units, nobody likes to watch them, nobody likes to play against them, come on.
4) Redesign the Sentry to function more as a offensive based, mobile Protoss medic, to bolster Gateway armies throughout the game.
- Remove FF and replace it with Shield Battery, Ravagers being in the game makes FF a dumb binary reaction in LOTV, the Sentry deserves something better. (ex. Shield Battery replenishes 35 shield immediately and gives 35 over 8 seconds)
- Give Sentry innate 1 armor
- Buff Sentry laser beam to actually do SOME damage, not alot, but more then it does now.
5) Buff Stalker DPS vs. light so they don't look so hopelessly pathetic vs. post mid game M/M/M armies
6) Remove invulnerable Nydus and replace it with a new Nydus worm that is can be killed, is cheaper, can only transport 16 units, and can be cancelled for a 50% resource refund
7) Remove Psionic Transfer from Adepts, give them increased movement speed, Resonating Glaives now 200/200 and gives attack speed bonus and a +2 vs. light units
These are just things off the top of my head, like I said I'm a Zerg player and Protoss is just terrible in LOTV, not balance wise but design wise they are a complete and total mess.
Agree with this. Especially the combination of removing FF and making Stasis more spammable.
Another good Blinding Cloud change might be to introduce a miss chance for all enemy units inside the cloud. Could be used offensively as well as defensively with that change.
On April 27 2017 05:53 jpg06051992 wrote:
^ the best way to change the Swarm Host is to remove it from the game, it's impossible to balance a free unit spawning unit, it's either imbalanced weak or strong, it currently fills no real role in the Zerg arsenal besides being OP vs. Mech and crap vs. almost everything else outside of wonky GSL level Swarm Host plays that also looks OP when pulled off well.
Actually removing all free units and redesigning their host units would be great too.
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EPT
