I've seen some Snute, Scarlett, nerchio, Pigs posting here multiple times and make some good propositions but never been listened by Blizzard.
I don't think they read a lot teamliquid, it seems they rather read reddit and battle net.
I'd be very surprised if the balance team actually read any posts on TL/Reddit/Bnet in depth. Of course they have to say that they're "listening to the community" for PR purposes, but Blizzard gets specific feedback directly from Afreeca and pros. Undoubtedly, they also have a bunch of internal data analytics on ladder games and winrates and so forth. Combined, that gives them pretty solid coverage of the entire playerbase.
They probably skim the forums to make sure they haven't missed a big issue that everyone's complaining about, but no more than that.
I mean, if I was a Blizzard dev, there's no way I would do more than that. Nothing more frustrating as a professional engineer than having some idiot without the slightest understanding of your job try and tell you how to do it (I get quite enough of that already, thanks). If you throw in the sheer amount of toxic/whine/shit posting that floats around these forums on top of that, I wouldn't go near it without a ten-foot pole, a hazmat suit, and a flamethrower.
And that's why you don't sell any games. Games are sold to people not to pro gamers. Same with software (I'm a software developer). Applications and games are for people. The moment you refuse to listen to them, you're out of business.
You realize tho, that balance patches don't affect how much money they got (and not get, since apart from skins, coop and other weird things that come bundled with the multiplayer, they aren't selling more things to you once you bought the game) from sc2? So why would they specifically listen to random people more than pros? The casual players don't play sc2 anymore (and never really played it). I remember some online friends that are "casual" sc2 players... They got WoL, finished the game. Never played after that (okay maybe they played a bit of 4v4 and stuff on WoL). HotS came out, they got it day one, finish the solo, stop it. LotV, after all these years, they still buy the *** game 40€ only to play a few hours then never play it again (maybe they played Nova idk). Those who milk money to blizzard don't play the multiplayer so they don't talk about it either.
Would like to see a carrier change really. Interceptor cost was a good way of making sure Protoss could only go carriers when ahead. Sky based mid-late compositions are pretty boring and should not be seen regularly imo. Where is the fun there? Positional play is way more rewarding and gives more options to retreat to fight again.
Thor anti-air: I don't get it. Would be nice to see the thought process behind this. Why don't they buff cyclone anti-air? Just seen two cyclones locked on an oracle in the PiG tournament and it still got a bunch of scv kills without dying. Can anyone explain why cyclone AA is so weak?
This is my initial feedback based on having played exclusively on the the test map since it was released.
Normally TvT is about who gets the air advantage at least if one of the players uses mech. You mass vikings and ravens so that you get air control and then use tanks or liberators to take over the ground. Thor are basically useless in the matchup.
This has completely changed on the test maps!
Thanks to the new Thor there is a completely new and more complicated interaction between the units. Basically, there is a dance between tanks, thors, vikings and liberators. Tanks kill the thors, thors kill the vikings, vikings kill the liberators and liberators kill the tanks. Plus liberators can kill thors and thors can kill tanks as well.
It is much more complex and fun and becomes less about who masses the most air units but more about who uses his units in the best way. It is also more back and forth and you can trade units all the time instead of turtling up and trying to get the air advantage.
So really good job Blizzard! TvT is more fun and less one-dimensional with the new Thor!
On April 22 2017 20:23 MockHamill wrote: This is my initial feedback based on having played exclusively on the the test map since it was released.
Normally TvT is about who gets the air advantage at least if one of the players uses mech. You mass vikings and ravens so that you get air control and then use tanks or liberators to take over the ground. Thor are basically useless in the matchup.
This has completely changed on the test maps!
Thanks to the new Thor there is a completely new and more complicated interaction between the units. Basically, there is a dance between tanks, thors, vikings and liberators. Tanks kill the thors, thors kill the vikings, vikings kill the liberators and liberators kill the tanks. Plus liberators can kill thors and thors can kill tanks as well.
It is much more complex and fun and becomes less about who masses the most air units but more about who uses his units in the best way. It is also more back and forth and you can trade units all the time instead of turtling up and trying to get the air advantage.
So really good job Blizzard! TvT is more fun and less one-dimensional with the new Thor!
Nice to hear that its fun in TVT but unfortunaly it breaks lategame ZvT. Thirs were already good in the matchup especially vs Broodlords. Now they are pretty much shutting donw this comp especially with vikings in the mix.
I would rather see more thoughtful changes being implemented. They should analize more how it would affect other matchups. For example Zealot buff seems good for TvP but it's totally unnecessary in ZvP etc. This changes overall are just shifting the meta not fixing balance
Balance can really only be fine tuned so much, there is alot of things that can't merely be patched out with a balance update that really are affecting the meta
1) Muta regeneration requiring hard counter's 2) Aerial armies being in general stronger when massed then ground 3) 12 worker start kicking things off incredibly quickly (faster tech is now the norm because why not really?) 4) Many units that have been specifically geared for worker kills has made economy raiding the defacto play style (for the most part I know mech has become more prevalent but if it just sits and turtles it can be overwhelmed)
On April 22 2017 20:23 MockHamill wrote: This is my initial feedback based on having played exclusively on the the test map since it was released.
Normally TvT is about who gets the air advantage at least if one of the players uses mech. You mass vikings and ravens so that you get air control and then use tanks or liberators to take over the ground. Thor are basically useless in the matchup.
This has completely changed on the test maps!
Thanks to the new Thor there is a completely new and more complicated interaction between the units. Basically, there is a dance between tanks, thors, vikings and liberators. Tanks kill the thors, thors kill the vikings, vikings kill the liberators and liberators kill the tanks. Plus liberators can kill thors and thors can kill tanks as well.
It is much more complex and fun and becomes less about who masses the most air units but more about who uses his units in the best way. It is also more back and forth and you can trade units all the time instead of turtling up and trying to get the air advantage.
So really good job Blizzard! TvT is more fun and less one-dimensional with the new Thor!
Nice to hear that its fun in TVT but unfortunaly it breaks lategame ZvT. Thirs were already good in the matchup especially vs Broodlords. Now they are pretty much shutting donw this comp especially with vikings in the mix.
I would rather see more thoughtful changes being implemented. They should analize more how it would affect other matchups. For example Zealot buff seems good for TvP but it's totally unnecessary in ZvP etc. This changes overall are just shifting the meta not fixing balance
That's a really good point, these constant balance changes don't help improving the game in the long run, but I guess that's the only way without having to touch underlaying issues (aka putting in real effort) - races taking turns being OP.
On April 22 2017 20:23 MockHamill wrote: This is my initial feedback based on having played exclusively on the the test map since it was released.
Normally TvT is about who gets the air advantage at least if one of the players uses mech. You mass vikings and ravens so that you get air control and then use tanks or liberators to take over the ground. Thor are basically useless in the matchup.
This has completely changed on the test maps!
Thanks to the new Thor there is a completely new and more complicated interaction between the units. Basically, there is a dance between tanks, thors, vikings and liberators. Tanks kill the thors, thors kill the vikings, vikings kill the liberators and liberators kill the tanks. Plus liberators can kill thors and thors can kill tanks as well.
It is much more complex and fun and becomes less about who masses the most air units but more about who uses his units in the best way. It is also more back and forth and you can trade units all the time instead of turtling up and trying to get the air advantage.
So really good job Blizzard! TvT is more fun and less one-dimensional with the new Thor!
Nice to hear that its fun in TVT but unfortunaly it breaks lategame ZvT. Thirs were already good in the matchup especially vs Broodlords. Now they are pretty much shutting donw this comp especially with vikings in the mix.
I would rather see more thoughtful changes being implemented. They should analize more how it would affect other matchups. For example Zealot buff seems good for TvP but it's totally unnecessary in ZvP etc. This changes overall are just shifting the meta not fixing balance
That's a really good point, these constant balance changes don't help improving the game in the long run, but I guess that's the only way without having to touch underlaying issues (aka putting in real effort) - races taking turns being OP.
I think it's important to update lotv currently. You shouldn't let a game settle that suffers from gameplay issues.
Get the game in the right spot and then you can let it settle.
Why would you wait to do the necessary changes ? People will simply get annoyed and frustrated with the game and eventually stop playing it.
On April 23 2017 00:46 jpg06051992 wrote: Balance can really only be fine tuned so much, there is alot of things that can't merely be patched out with a balance update that really are affecting the meta
1) Muta regeneration requiring hard counter's 2) Aerial armies being in general stronger when massed then ground 3) 12 worker start kicking things off incredibly quickly (faster tech is now the norm because why not really?) 4) Many units that have been specifically geared for worker kills has made economy raiding the defacto play style (for the most part I know mech has become more prevalent but if it just sits and turtles it can be overwhelmed)
Remove WidowMines from the game and u will get removal of Muta Regeneration and this will cause straight Phoenix nerf. I call this reverse balancing as muta regen and phoenix buff in the end were strictly caused by introducing WidowMine in HOTS.
Edit:
To be honest I wonder when Blizzard will realize that all balance issues are connected to BIO being lil bit OP. For example interactions between Zerg and Toss units are pretty much balanced more or less. It's BIO that determines mech being weak and Toss to have stupid shooting pylons or Adepts. They really should start from toning down BIO and adjusting the game from that point. But in the same time I know that it's too much effort and they will never try this out. Sad but true. And if they won't we will be condemned to this hot fixes that won't solve anything.
On April 23 2017 00:46 jpg06051992 wrote: Balance can really only be fine tuned so much, there is alot of things that can't merely be patched out with a balance update that really are affecting the meta
1) Muta regeneration requiring hard counter's 2) Aerial armies being in general stronger when massed then ground 3) 12 worker start kicking things off incredibly quickly (faster tech is now the norm because why not really?) 4) Many units that have been specifically geared for worker kills has made economy raiding the defacto play style (for the most part I know mech has become more prevalent but if it just sits and turtles it can be overwhelmed)
Remove WidowMines from the game and u will get removal of Muta Regeneration and this will cause straight Phoenix nerf. I call this reverse balancing as muta regen and phoenix buff in the end were strictly caused by introducing WidowMine in HOTS.
Edit:
To be honest I wonder when Blizzard will realize that all balance issues are connected to BIO being lil bit OP.
They won't realize this because it's not true. ZvT has always been the poster boy for what Sc2 could be - it's amazing to watch. I would even say TvT is pretty cool now that we can't pick up seiged tanks. ZvP and TvP, however, are pretty awful. If I'm remembering correctly, TvP was great in HotS, but the end-stage ZvP was why I quit the game. I'm not saying toss are the problem, but it's not the strength of bio.
Apparently the Thor change is a nerf against light units, so it will be worse against Mutas and such. Then again I almost never see Thors used against mutas like they were in HotS so it will still be a lategame buff against BL and Corruptors.
On April 23 2017 03:49 pvsnp wrote: Apparently the Thor change is a nerf against light units, so it will be worse against Mutas and such. Then again I almost never see Thors used against mutas like they were in HotS so it will still be a lategame buff against BL and Corruptors.
That's only the upgrade difference, isn't it? They still do flat 12 vs mutas at +0. They just made bonus DPS baseline. So if anything this only affects mech where thors still are still a must vs mutalisks :p. Then again, the dmg buff will also very likely affect mech vs BLs only.
That's only the upgrade difference, isn't it? They still do flat 12 vs mutas at +0. They just made bonus DPS baseline. So if anything this only affects mech where thors still are still a must vs mutalisks :p. Then again, the dmg buff will also very likely affect mech vs BLs only.
Yep, an upgrade difference only. A fully upgraded Thor post-patch does 3 less damage vs light than pre-patch.
Agree that this will only be a mech thing. Tbh I doubt it will have much of an effect regardless because I hardly ever see Thors at all outside of mech. What the Thor really needs is a cost+size reduction and a speed buff (*cough* Goliath *cough*).
As it is mech is even worse off in TvP compared to live. There are 4 reasons for this.
1. Thors do less damage against Tempest and Carriers. 2. HIP made it easier to focus fire down Tempest/Carriers. Now they often lose DPS trying in vain to kill to kill interceptors instead of killing ground or air units. 3. Zealots gets speed earlier which means that your helllbats are worse off if they attack you before you can get blueflame. 4. Tempest do more damage to BC which is the only effective counter to Carriers.
So even though TvT is improved it is hardly worth it since TvP got even worse. Solution Keep High Impact payload but give it bonus damage to mechanical. This solves problems both in TvT and TvP. It also solves the problem with that the new Thor is actually OP vs Zerg.
On April 22 2017 04:38 FarmI3oy wrote: Still no discussion of the success of the Faction Wars tourney, and no acknowledgment of the failed LOTV economy model.
On April 23 2017 04:10 MockHamill wrote: As it is mech is even worse off in TvP compared to live. There are 4 reasons for this.
1. Thors do less damage against Tempest and Carriers. 2. HIP made it easier to focus fire down Tempest/Carriers. Now they often lose DPS trying in vain to kill to kill interceptors instead of killing ground or air units. 3. Zealots gets speed earlier which means that your helllbats are worse off if they attack you before you can get blueflame. 4. Tempest do more damage to BC which is the only effective counter to Carriers.
So even though TvT is improved it is hardly worth it since TvP got even worse. Solution Keep High Impact payload but give it bonus damage to mechanical. This solves problems both in TvT and TvP. It also solves the problem with that the new Thor is actually OP vs Zerg.
We all know this is the real solution:
It's Blizzard's exact flat damage change packaged into an upgrade and gives thors the extra AA range to deal with capital ships that clump.
But you know...only was made and tested and proven viable over 1+ yr ago. Devs might wanna take a look at it.
The upgrade was designed for the exact reason you said - thors can not even get into range of carrier/tempest because of the ground in front.
It's based off the same concept of the goliath charon booster upgrade in Brood War. I can't fathom why SC2 devs don't realize carriers were also imbalanced vs mech in SC1 UNTIL Brood War came along and the developers solved the problem by giving goliaths the massive range upgrade via a machine shop upgrade.
Same thing can be done for SC2. It's proven in the video i just linked.
This solves problems both in TvT and TvP. It also solves the problem with that the new Thor is actually OP vs Zerg.
Could you please explain why the new Thor is OP vs zerg ? It's not stronger vs mutas than before. It just counter corruptors better now, so that vikings are able to kill broodlords.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/205545782814834688/304842539524161538/unknown.png)
