This solves problems both in TvT and TvP. It also solves the problem with that the new Thor is actually OP vs Zerg.
Could you please explain why the new Thor is OP vs zerg ? It's not stronger vs mutas than before. It just counter corruptors better now, so that vikings are able to kill broodlords.
Atleast that's my observation so far.
Well in my experience Thor/Viking now beat BroodLord/Corruptors mostly because that corruptors stacks. It is very possible this is not true on higher levels though were people are better at spreading out their units.
Also my opponents so far has not used vipers which may turn the table.
On April 23 2017 04:10 MockHamill wrote: As it is mech is even worse off in TvP compared to live. There are 4 reasons for this.
1. Thors do less damage against Tempest and Carriers. 2. HIP made it easier to focus fire down Tempest/Carriers. Now they often lose DPS trying in vain to kill to kill interceptors instead of killing ground or air units. 3. Zealots gets speed earlier which means that your helllbats are worse off if they attack you before you can get blueflame. 4. Tempest do more damage to BC which is the only effective counter to Carriers.
So even though TvT is improved it is hardly worth it since TvP got even worse. Solution Keep High Impact payload but give it bonus damage to mechanical. This solves problems both in TvT and TvP. It also solves the problem with that the new Thor is actually OP vs Zerg.
We all know this is the real solution:
It's Blizzard's exact flat damage change packaged into an upgrade and gives thors the extra AA range to deal with capital ships that clump.
But you know...only was made and tested and proven viable over 1+ yr ago. Devs might wanna take a look at it.
The upgrade was designed for the exact reason you said - thors can not even get into range of carrier/tempest because of the ground in front.
It's based off the same concept of the goliath charon booster upgrade in Brood War. I can't fathom why SC2 devs don't realize carriers were also imbalanced vs mech in SC1 UNTIL Brood War came along and the developers solved the problem by giving goliaths the massive range upgrade via a machine shop upgrade.
Same thing can be done for SC2. It's proven in the video i just linked.
Yeah this may the best solution. Hope Blizzard tries this is the next version of the test map.
This solves problems both in TvT and TvP. It also solves the problem with that the new Thor is actually OP vs Zerg.
Could you please explain why the new Thor is OP vs zerg ? It's not stronger vs mutas than before. It just counter corruptors better now, so that vikings are able to kill broodlords.
Atleast that's my observation so far.
Well in my experience Thor/Viking now beat BroodLord/Corruptors mostly because that corruptors stacks. It is very possible this is not true on higher levels though were people are better at spreading out their units.
Also my opponents so far has not used vipers which may turn the table.
That's exactly what the thor buff is for. Thor is a underused unit, because the GtG attack gets overshadowed by tanks and the AA is too bad to compete with other lategame compositions.
Vikings don't cut it anymore, because a lot of viking counters got buffed, mech upgrades got split up and vikings are just very fragile.
The problem with mech is that it simply doesn't has a reliable way to deal with mass air, so mech games often turn into turtle scenario's where the opponent just tries to get the perfect air deathball and mech player tries to basically do the same, because there's no GtA option available.
The fact that you have to counter air units with your own mass air units, ruins mech play and creates awful gameplay.
That's why i think buffing the thor's AA is a good step.
This solves problems both in TvT and TvP. It also solves the problem with that the new Thor is actually OP vs Zerg.
Could you please explain why the new Thor is OP vs zerg ? It's not stronger vs mutas than before. It just counter corruptors better now, so that vikings are able to kill broodlords.
Atleast that's my observation so far.
Well in my experience Thor/Viking now beat BroodLord/Corruptors mostly because that corruptors stacks. It is very possible this is not true on higher levels though were people are better at spreading out their units.
Also my opponents so far has not used vipers which may turn the table.
Oh no, god forbid Terran actually has a chance lategame!
On April 23 2017 04:53 avilo wrote: We all know this is the real solution:
i do not like approaching a change in a unit with this mindset. it leads to confirmation bias. i prefer the "experiment and discover" mindset. your Thor modification is worthy of experimental exploration. Until its fully tested in the hands of the game's best players its impossible to say for certain if its the correct change for the Thor. To say in advance it must be the solution is to cheat the process... and Blizzard is all about process.
On April 22 2017 20:23 MockHamill wrote: This is my initial feedback based on having played exclusively on the the test map since it was released.
Normally TvT is about who gets the air advantage at least if one of the players uses mech. You mass vikings and ravens so that you get air control and then use tanks or liberators to take over the ground. Thor are basically useless in the matchup.
This has completely changed on the test maps!
Thanks to the new Thor there is a completely new and more complicated interaction between the units. Basically, there is a dance between tanks, thors, vikings and liberators. Tanks kill the thors, thors kill the vikings, vikings kill the liberators and liberators kill the tanks. Plus liberators can kill thors and thors can kill tanks as well.
It is much more complex and fun and becomes less about who masses the most air units but more about who uses his units in the best way. It is also more back and forth and you can trade units all the time instead of turtling up and trying to get the air advantage.
So really good job Blizzard! TvT is more fun and less one-dimensional with the new Thor!
Nice to hear that its fun in TVT but unfortunaly it breaks lategame ZvT. Thirs were already good in the matchup especially vs Broodlords. Now they are pretty much shutting donw this comp especially with vikings in the mix.
I would rather see more thoughtful changes being implemented. They should analize more how it would affect other matchups. For example Zealot buff seems good for TvP but it's totally unnecessary in ZvP etc. This changes overall are just shifting the meta not fixing balance
That's a really good point, these constant balance changes don't help improving the game in the long run, but I guess that's the only way without having to touch underlaying issues (aka putting in real effort) - races taking turns being OP.
I think it's important to update lotv currently. You shouldn't let a game settle that suffers from gameplay issues.
Get the game in the right spot and then you can let it settle.
Why would you wait to do the necessary changes ? People will simply get annoyed and frustrated with the game and eventually stop playing it.
Oh sorry, my wording may have been a bit misleading, what I meant was that they should really take a thorough look and do a greater revamp (like partly reverting the economic changes introduced with LotV, at least that's what I personally would like to see as a player), then tweak here and there until it feels good and leave it at that, just like you.
This is what has been Blizzard's approach for the majority of LotV, or at least that's what they told the community.
However, reality is that we have had constant tweaking/changing without addressing the core issues which make the game frustrating to play, namely 12 worker start, which somewhat killed diversity and sacrificed better playability for a "better" viewer experience.
HotS was quite balanced at the end, meta was a bit stale, people disliked Swarm Hosts vs. Mech, sure, but it probably was in the best state SC2 has ever seen balance-wise. BW had quite long periods of stale meta, as well.
On April 23 2017 03:49 pvsnp wrote: Apparently the Thor change is a nerf against light units, so it will be worse against Mutas and such. Then again I almost never see Thors used against mutas like they were in HotS so it will still be a lategame buff against BL and Corruptors.
WTF?! So it's a nerf in every way except what? Clumped voidrays? Protoss air buff and Terran anti air nerf lol
The only reason why serral has made this work was also because showtime moved his air units away allowing serral to get his spores into position. If showtime were to just slowly chip away the spores with oracle relevation and tempest range, things would have been very different. The only reason why serral's spore push is doing anything is due him threatening showtime's base.
Why they are nerfed thors against light? Every upgrade can add +1 +2 +3 against light and its will be good. Blizzard, give sensor tower power - warp prism cant did warp in sensor tower range, only drop. In late game warp prism too good.
If we look at the bigger picture, blizzard is caught in a buff spiral concerning air fights. Parasitic bomb, steroided seeker missile, steroided corruptor, steroided void ray, steroided carrier, steroided thor, steroided banshees : nearly everything that flies got buffed at some point in LOTV. That means that AA options had to be buffed, which is why we've got a queen that shuts down everything that flies, that's part of the reason why the overcharge can't really be removed in the current state of the game, that's part of the reason why mech sucks, that's why the viper is a 4 spell caster and that's why the viking sucks (never got buffed to match the air threats).
I'd be much happier if air units were nerfed in this game because air units don't rely on strategy but on execution, hard counters and snowballs.
On April 23 2017 04:10 MockHamill wrote: As it is mech is even worse off in TvP compared to live. There are 4 reasons for this.
1. Thors do less damage against Tempest and Carriers. 2. HIP made it easier to focus fire down Tempest/Carriers. Now they often lose DPS trying in vain to kill to kill interceptors instead of killing ground or air units. 3. Zealots gets speed earlier which means that your helllbats are worse off if they attack you before you can get blueflame. 4. Tempest do more damage to BC which is the only effective counter to Carriers.
So even though TvT is improved it is hardly worth it since TvP got even worse. Solution Keep High Impact payload but give it bonus damage to mechanical. This solves problems both in TvT and TvP. It also solves the problem with that the new Thor is actually OP vs Zerg.
It's Blizzard's exact flat damage change packaged into an upgrade and gives thors the extra AA range to deal with capital ships that clump.
But you know...only was made and tested and proven viable over 1+ yr ago. Devs might wanna take a look at it.
The upgrade was designed for the exact reason you said - thors can not even get into range of carrier/tempest because of the ground in front.
It's based off the same concept of the goliath charon booster upgrade in Brood War. I can't fathom why SC2 devs don't realize carriers were also imbalanced vs mech in SC1 UNTIL Brood War came along and the developers solved the problem by giving goliaths the massive range upgrade via a machine shop upgrade.
Same thing can be done for SC2. It's proven in the video i just linked.
Yeah this may the best solution. Hope Blizzard tries this is the next version of the test map.
I disagree. This change would just create another abomination: a super high range, high damage, splash G2A unit. Granted, it's balanced somewhat by the Thor's cost and it's slow movement speed (and the fact that it's a ground unit). But I still think it would be too good.
So, to keep it clean and simple, if the Thor should be able to gain additional range, something needs to be taken away. Ideally the splash G2A should be low range and single target G2A (High Impact Payload) — after putting it back into the game — should be long range.
I've always favored transferring the Lock-On mechanic from the Cyclone to the Thor's single target G2A because I think it would fit really well. This way you actually would have to micro Thors by selecting targets for the long range G2A much like the Ghost's Snipe.
Overall, the changes seem to be headed in the right direction though. They actually address issues like mech AA and Swarm Hosts now. Really good to see!
On April 23 2017 18:22 JackONeill wrote: If we look at the bigger picture, blizzard is caught in a buff spiral concerning air fights. Parasitic bomb, steroided seeker missile, steroided corruptor, steroided void ray, steroided carrier, steroided thor, steroided banshees : nearly everything that flies got buffed at some point in LOTV. That means that AA options had to be buffed, which is why we've got a queen that shuts down everything that flies, that's part of the reason why the overcharge can't really be removed in the current state of the game, that's part of the reason why mech sucks, that's why the viper is a 4 spell caster and that's why the viking sucks (never got buffed to match the air threats).
I'd be much happier if air units were nerfed in this game because air units don't rely on strategy but on execution, hard counters and snowballs.
Agree on everything.
I still believe that one of the biggest mistakes of lotv was the addition of even more units.
They are the reason for 99% of bad changes during lotv's lifetime.
This solves problems both in TvT and TvP. It also solves the problem with that the new Thor is actually OP vs Zerg.
Could you please explain why the new Thor is OP vs zerg ? It's not stronger vs mutas than before. It just counter corruptors better now, so that vikings are able to kill broodlords.
Atleast that's my observation so far.
its just better it used to be its not OP. right now broods are in a GREAT place becuase of the corruptor buffs. at least this change is relevant in low-mid msters
On April 24 2017 04:35 WeddingEpisode wrote: Enough Concussive Shells should stun Ultras. The interplay between bio and Ultras would be more fun this way.
Ultras are supposed to be this giant, DGAF unit that forces the Terran to play differently. But sure, let's make 3/3 bio counter everything
On April 24 2017 04:35 WeddingEpisode wrote: Enough Concussive Shells should stun Ultras. The interplay between bio and Ultras would be more fun this way.
Ultras are supposed to be this giant, DGAF unit that forces the Terran to play differently. But sure, let's make 3/3 bio counter everything
I hope you do realize that terrans need to produce a lot of bio in order to have a shot at winning the game, if you render bio useless once ultras are out, it's terribly bad game design? It's what happened before tankivacs, but since liberators were also stupidly good and you could open aggressively with reapers it evened things out balance wise, but it was still horrible design wise.
hey blizzard, theres a good idea, why dont u make zealots only biological? i think this will solve in a huge way vs ling-hydra-bane (unstoppable) style, you see how zerg deal with most of protoss army tiers just with that composition? its because baneling counter every single protoss gate units (and some of robo too), so this actually will force zerg to transitioning tier units and dont be comfortable doing the same style the whole game (and win).
On April 24 2017 05:50 wiNgiAN wrote: hey blizzard, theres a good idea, why dont u make zealots biological? i think this will solve in a huge way vs ling-hydra-bane (unstoppable) style, you see how zerg deal with most of protoss army tiers just with that composition? its because baneling counter every single protoss gate units (and some of robo too), so this actually will force zerg to transitioning tier units and dont be comfortable doing the same style the whole game (and win).
1) Zealots are already biological.
2) Being biological makes no difference for banes, being a light unit does.
I don't know about hydras/banes countering everything but neither of your statements make any sense.
On April 24 2017 05:50 wiNgiAN wrote: hey blizzard, theres a good idea, why dont u make zealots biological? i think this will solve in a huge way vs ling-hydra-bane (unstoppable) style, you see how zerg deal with most of protoss army tiers just with that composition? its because baneling counter every single protoss gate units (and some of robo too), so this actually will force zerg to transitioning tier units and dont be comfortable doing the same style the whole game (and win).
1) Zealots are already biological.
2) Being biological makes no difference for banes, being a light unit does.
I don't know about hydras/banes countering everything but neither of your statements make any sense.
EPT
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