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On January 20 2017 17:33 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 16:41 iRope wrote:On January 20 2017 04:34 bObA wrote:
Protoss has been being OP vs terran for months, terran should adapt with everything and for only 2 or 3 weeks it seems there is a bit too op for terran and immediately we are talking about nerfing Terran...
When Protoss was imba in multiple ways, terran should find strategies and adapt to survive.
I remember the time when Innovation TY and Maru got rekt by Zest stats and $o$.
And as a terran player, we lost tankivas for a damage buff and now what ? we won't have tankivas anymore and the buff will be cancelled ? I have to agree with this quote for the most part. Colossus were insane towards the end of HotS and that unit was never nerfed. Instead, it took innovative play from Maru and then the rest of Terran players (splitting your army up, doing multiple drops and pressure to try to pick off lonely colossus, sometimes pulling the boys for an army vs army fight) to re-balance the game and even then, Protoss had a huge advantage late game. Now everyone just wants updates after 2-3 weeks when they've barely even begun to figure out how to adapt to the new patch. Tanks might be strong early-mid game, but it is cool to actually see them in the TvP matchup for once. It'd be nice to see them stick around. Protosses are also beginning to figure out how to stop 2 base tank and their late game armies are still pretty strong. I'd say at least give it time before they mess around with nerfs. The community loves to QQ when they see imbalances, but this is without radically changing play to adapt to deal with it first. The Colossus was never nerfed because it couldn't be nerfed. Protoss had two (sort of three) aoe options: Colossus or High Templar. The problem with going High Templar was that it was generally more risky than going Colossus, and early game you could only go one path. Actually, there used to be Chargelot/Archon/High Templar, but the widow mine killed that. Without aoe, Protoss units are incredibly fragile lategame. Protoss did not have a "huge" advantage. Were they more favoured late game? Yes, but they were also quite vulnerable to multi-prong drops. Besides, do you remember when this patch came out? November 22 (aggregating from the 19-24), and that means that it came out nearly two months ago. So, it hasn't been out for two-three weeks, and people are complaining; it's been out for almost eight weeks, and winrates have not improved. Also, I don't think it's really the tanks; from what I've seen, it's the liberators in combination with widow mines and tanks and the Protoss inability to engage the liberators without incurring heavy losses.
You could never fight Protoss lategame in HotS, but I agree that it's more WM than tanks
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On January 20 2017 17:37 iRope wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 17:33 FrkFrJss wrote:On January 20 2017 16:41 iRope wrote:On January 20 2017 04:34 bObA wrote:
Protoss has been being OP vs terran for months, terran should adapt with everything and for only 2 or 3 weeks it seems there is a bit too op for terran and immediately we are talking about nerfing Terran...
When Protoss was imba in multiple ways, terran should find strategies and adapt to survive.
I remember the time when Innovation TY and Maru got rekt by Zest stats and $o$.
And as a terran player, we lost tankivas for a damage buff and now what ? we won't have tankivas anymore and the buff will be cancelled ? I have to agree with this quote for the most part. Colossus were insane towards the end of HotS and that unit was never nerfed. Instead, it took innovative play from Maru and then the rest of Terran players (splitting your army up, doing multiple drops and pressure to try to pick off lonely colossus, sometimes pulling the boys for an army vs army fight) to re-balance the game and even then, Protoss had a huge advantage late game. Now everyone just wants updates after 2-3 weeks when they've barely even begun to figure out how to adapt to the new patch. Tanks might be strong early-mid game, but it is cool to actually see them in the TvP matchup for once. It'd be nice to see them stick around. Protosses are also beginning to figure out how to stop 2 base tank and their late game armies are still pretty strong. I'd say at least give it time before they mess around with nerfs. The community loves to QQ when they see imbalances, but this is without radically changing play to adapt to deal with it first. The Colossus was never nerfed because it couldn't be nerfed. Protoss had two (sort of three) aoe options: Colossus or High Templar. The problem with going High Templar was that it was generally more risky than going Colossus, and early game you could only go one path. Actually, there used to be Chargelot/Archon/High Templar, but the widow mine killed that. Without aoe, Protoss units are incredibly fragile lategame. Protoss did not have a "huge" advantage. Were they more favoured late game? Yes, but they were also quite vulnerable to multi-prong drops. Besides, do you remember when this patch came out? November 22 (aggregating from the 19-24), and that means that it came out nearly two months ago. So, it hasn't been out for two-three weeks, and people are complaining; it's been out for almost eight weeks, and winrates have not improved. Also, I don't think it's really the tanks; from what I've seen, it's the liberators in combination with widow mines and tanks and the Protoss inability to engage the liberators without incurring heavy losses. You could never fight Protoss lategame in HotS, but I agree that it's more WM than tanks
Actually you can, and there are many good games that went to the late game with Terran and Protoss. I do agree with you that Protoss did hold a bit of an advantage, but they held no more of an advantage than Terran did in the early mid-game.
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Actually you can, and there are many good games that went to the late game with Terran and Protoss. I do agree with you that Protoss did hold a bit of an advantage, but they held no more of an advantage than Terran did in the early mid-game.
Taeja comes to mind. An absolute monster in Late game TvP.
Just required perfect decision making and control but it was always a treat to see.
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On January 20 2017 04:34 bObA wrote:
Protoss has been being OP vs terran for months, terran should adapt with everything and for only 2 or 3 weeks it seems there is a bit too op for terran and immediately we are talking about nerfing Terran...
When Protoss was imba in multiple ways, terran should find strategies and adapt to survive.
I remember the time when Innovation TY and Maru got rekt by Zest stats and $o$.
And as a terran player, we lost tankivas for a damage buff and now what ? we won't have tankivas anymore and the buff will be cancelled ?
This is so wrong. Protoss always have to wait and see and figure out the meta game first, before Dkim reacts. Zest, Stats and sOs is as great as Innovation, TY and Maru and Tanks have received a huge buff and will likely not have any nerf.
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Swarmhost nerf so i can play mech every game plsssssssssssssss
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Welcome to another episode of community balancing starcraft.
Email us your creative ideas to balance "insert unit" and while you are at it give us feedback on these community suggestions we saw on reddit just the other day. Bonus: This time we gathered feedback from our pro players, mind giving us feedback on the feedback the pros provided us?
So during my Christmas holidays i decided to browse teamliquid (yes i was bored) and i found this www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/153275-sick-new-unit-idea i was wondering what the community thinks. This could be a cool unit and would do terrible damage.
Love you all.
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Blizz pls do not nerf the TANK, do smth to lib and mine but leave tanks alone
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PvT is fine, toss just changing so often and not everyone can adapt that quickly.
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Why not add a poll to every feedback update? All things talked about should have alternatives similar to "don't change this", " change this" and "I have no strong opinion on the matter".
Hydra buff: don't change it by adding 10 hp, change it by adding 10 hp, meh
Widow mine shield damage: don't change it by lowering damage vs shield, change it by lowering damage vs shields, meh
Etc.
This way it will be way clearer what the team liquid community think instead of having to read through the comments and count the posts who are positive and negative.
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On January 20 2017 17:37 LHK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 17:34 starslayer wrote:
i say nerf all air units and than work from there. I would really like to see something done about mobility and ignoring terrain, honestly. Love my ground positional play. doesn't do much good to cry about how fast medivacs are as it won't ever change but it's something thats bothered me since hots came out.
I think that sc2 went spiral down just after introducing medivack boost. This one decision snowballed into many, many other bad bandaid decisions that ultimately broke the game. After medi boost, they buffed Mutalisks, and because of mutalisks they introduced widomines and so on and on. This one change provoked all this bad design problems changing real strategy game to "kill workers instant and win" game.
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On January 20 2017 19:34 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 17:37 LHK wrote:On January 20 2017 17:34 starslayer wrote:
i say nerf all air units and than work from there. I would really like to see something done about mobility and ignoring terrain, honestly. Love my ground positional play. doesn't do much good to cry about how fast medivacs are as it won't ever change but it's something thats bothered me since hots came out. I think that sc2 went spiral down just after introducing medivack boost. This one decision snowballed into many, many other bad bandaid decisions that ultimately broke the game. After medi boost, they buffed Mutalisks, and because of mutalisks they introduced widomines and so on and on. This one change provoked all this bad design problems changing real strategy game to "kill workers instant and win" game.
I have to agree. I find myself playing a ton of Wings of Liberty lately just to go back to a time before all of that was introduced and it's actually really fun. The WOL ladder isnt exactly a high-skill place to be and WOL has its problems but all of that side i've been really enjoying simply trying to get reads on my opponent and responding appropriately. That, to me, is fun. That's starcraft 2. Not "oh, i didn't see this drop coming and now i lose a bunch of workers and am basically out of the game".
I know it's a fair bit of nostalgia but I'm not trying to go pro and I want to have fun, and WOL is still heaps of fun to me. I never have to wait long for queues either.
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Now for something completely different, how about this:
Remove a unit from each race and change/ re-balance the game where needed.
Protoss: MSC. Have photon overcharge control relocated to the nexus. This will remove silly offensive pylon strats.
Terran: The liberator. This unit is badly designed. It causes problematic buffs elsewhere (queen) and overlaps with other units.
Zerg: The swarmhost (duh).
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On January 20 2017 20:03 Penev wrote:
Now for something completely different, how about this:
Remove a unit from each race and change/ re-balance the game where needed.
Protoss: MSC. Have photon overcharge control relocated to the nexus. This will remove silly offensive pylon strats.
Terran: The liberator. This unit is badly designed. It causes problematic buffs elsewhere (queen) and overlaps with other units.
Zerg: The swarmhost (duh).
The game would be infinitely better like this, but it ain't happening, they don't actually want the game to be good.
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On January 20 2017 20:07 ihatevideogames wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 20:03 Penev wrote:
Now for something completely different, how about this:
Remove a unit from each race and change/ re-balance the game where needed.
Protoss: MSC. Have photon overcharge control relocated to the nexus. This will remove silly offensive pylon strats.
Terran: The liberator. This unit is badly designed. It causes problematic buffs elsewhere (queen) and overlaps with other units.
Zerg: The swarmhost (duh). The game would be infinitely better like this, but it ain't happening, they don't actually want the game to be good.
pretty sure they said in the past they don't care about making the game fun or "good" but want it to be the most challenging game it can be, which is really a silly way to go.
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All blizzard games uninstalled. Only way to show them that iam serious, i dont found them any good at making games anymore.
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On January 20 2017 19:12 Drfilip wrote:
Why not add a poll to every feedback update? All things talked about should have alternatives similar to "don't change this", " change this" and "I have no strong opinion on the matter".
Hydra buff: don't change it by adding 10 hp, change it by adding 10 hp, meh
Widow mine shield damage: don't change it by lowering damage vs shield, change it by lowering damage vs shields, meh
Etc.
This way it will be way clearer what the team liquid community think instead of having to read through the comments and count the posts who are positive and negative.
I truly hope they don't do this. These threads are populated by the worst part of the SC2 community, people that are hear *only* con complain and that would not be happy with anything Blizzard could do.
The level of whining is equally distributed among the three races, so almost every buff to one race is fiercely opposed by the other two races (with more or less silly arguments) - same happens for every nerf.
For me these threads are nice to give us an update on what they are doing, and keep people that read TL posted on the work that is going into SC2, but I hope they don't collect feedback from here.
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Flat out nerfing mines or tanks has pretty catastrophic consequences for the different matchups. The main concerns are mostly that those units blocks spamming certain types of units which could be extremely oppressive.
The buffed tanks are really nessecary against ravagers. I think the current version of the tank is slightly easier to use but weaker overall against them and any nerf to the tank shohuld put tankvacs or ravager nerfs on the table to avoid making this easily accesssible and spammable unit too difficult to deal with.
Mines are the #1 counter to everyones favorite thing, adept spam. Please don´t do this.
Taking a look at the liberator is an interesting point but because of blizzards design policy we are kinda stuck with them. Lotv is a game of hard counters, you either have them or you don´t. Ultras, templars, swarmhost, broods, carriers collosus can also be added to the list of units that will destroy you unless you have the proper counters. If you were going to change the libs I don´t think changing it´s numbers is the way to go because it´s either "too good" or completely useless. Perhaps follow the same idea as with the ultras and change the timings. The protoss issue is mainly having to play builds that can hold the early tank lib pushes but still set up a midgame that allows you to get out tempest before too many ranged libs are on the field. Something like increasing liberator build time or putting them on techlabs might slow down the timing enough that protoss can transition.
But with that said the libs function as the main damage output of lategame terran armies because bio vs robo units and gateway units under guardian shield with storm backup is hillariously bad. Nerfing liberators should probably induce a look at buffing other parts of the terran army to give it more actual damage in battles.
On a small sidenote the patch hasnt been out for very long and my personal experiences on ladder is that protoss is in the middle of a huge experimentation phase in PvT because a lot of the builds that are being attempted are just flat out horrible.
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If they want to nerf the tank, just go back to tankivac please... good old days where TvT wasn't doomdrop fest and where you could actually move around the map
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The buffed tanks are really nessecary against ravagers. I think the current version of the tank is slightly easier to use but weaker overall against them and any nerf to the tank shohuld put tankvacs or ravager nerfs on the table to avoid making this easily accesssible and spammable unit too difficult to deal with.
in what way are tanks any better against ravagers than they used to be..? They still 4 shot a ravager regardless of if it were pre-patch or post patch.
35 damage siege tanks take 4 hits to kill a ravager. 40 damage siege tanks take 4 hits to kill a ravager due to the 1 armor that they have innately.
Ravagers aren't armored so they don't take any bonus damage, and if i recall correctly splash damage between patches isn't big enough to offset anything in terms of ravagers killed vs surviving.
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On January 20 2017 21:31 LHK wrote:Show nested quote +
The buffed tanks are really nessecary against ravagers. I think the current version of the tank is slightly easier to use but weaker overall against them and any nerf to the tank shohuld put tankvacs or ravager nerfs on the table to avoid making this easily accesssible and spammable unit too difficult to deal with.
in what way are tanks any better against ravagers than they used to be..? They still 4 shot a ravager regardless of if it were pre-patch or post patch. 35 damage siege tanks take 4 hits to kill a ravager. 40 damage siege tanks take 4 hits to kill a ravager due to the 1 armor that they have innately. Ravagers aren't armored so they don't take any bonus damage, and if i recall correctly splash damage between patches isn't big enough to offset anything in terms of ravagers killed vs surviving.
Uhm....
I think the current version of the tank is slightly easier to use but weaker overall against them
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EPT
