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Terran vs. Protoss
We’ve been seeing more discussion regarding PvT. Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixed. However, because the desire to start testing specific changes is there within the community, we should start doing so right away. But first we must decide what to test as soon as possible.
From the community, we’re hearing something along the lines of nerfing the Liberator in some way.
From the pro side, we heard two main points of feedback: reducing the +shield damage of Widow Mines and reducing the overall effectiveness of Siege Tanks.
Please let us know your specific suggestions, thoughts on the pro suggestions, and then we can move forward with balance testing accordingly. Let’s try to decide which of these changes would be the best, or if there is a better change to make instead.
Hydralisk buffs
We heard your feedback, and it sounds like majority of you would like to shelf the Hydralisk buff for now. We’ll revisit this discussion if concerns about the unit come up again.
State of the game
The overall quality of the events around the world seem pretty solid. Of course there will always be balance issues here and there that we will work on, but how the game’s show since the major patch look great so far.
Therefore, we wanted to congratulate everyone that has contributed towards making the game the way it is! Congratulations to the pro players out there who really push the limits of the game, the viewers who keep SC2 going strong, our community who work so hard to improve the game together with us, and everyone behind the scenes to make everything happen! Thank you!
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RIP hydras, rip my passion.
I can only play ling/bling/ravager so much  .
Man, how I would've loved to see lair tech hydras and hive tech hunter killers.
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nerf liberator, window mine shield damage and tanks lil bit. not one unit so much i think.
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So seems they are fine with carriers in ZVP? Makes me sad...
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Austria24417 Posts
reducing the +shield damage of Widow Mines
Do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it
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Liberators need to do less damage vs ground units.
Swarm Hosts needs to cost more resources.
The rest of the game seems mostly ok.
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Pretty boring update this week. At least they acknowledge needing a change for PvT, but we'll see what they come up with next week. I'm bummed about no Hydra buff though.
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Protoss has been being OP vs terran for months, terran should adapt with everything and for only 2 or 3 weeks it seems there is a bit too op for terran and immediately we are talking about nerfing Terran...
When Protoss was imba in multiple ways, terran should find strategies and adapt to survive.
I remember the time when Innovation TY and Maru got rekt by Zest stats and $o$.
And as a terran player, we lost tankivas for a damage buff and now what ? we won't have tankivas anymore and the buff will be cancelled ?
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Another feedback written on knee. Nothing about carriers, no love for hydras, and they started this feedback with sentence "Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixe"....Do they even play this game???LOL.
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Perhaps Liberators shouldn't 2-shot Stalkers without having to first invest in upgrades. I'd also like to see Stalkers given more wherewithal to clean out cleverly-positioned Liberators. If Zealots were just a touch better, that could also be helpful in those types of engagements, as well as encourage their usage in comparison with Adepts just a bit better. They die just a teeny bit too quickly.
I propose
Liberator ground damage reduced from 85 => 79
Liberator ground damage upgrade scaling 5 => 7
Stalker AA range 6 => 7 (ground range stays the same)
Zealot shields 50 => 60
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On January 20 2017 04:13 JayuSC2 wrote:
So seems they are fine with carriers in ZVP? Makes me sad...
Yeah i don't feel like the hydra HP buff would have broken the meta, but i had good hopes it helps to deal with skytoss better as zerg.
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Like I was just saying last week, instead of actually adding to the quality of the game, these updates and their development has just become PR, and this (yet again) confirms it.
Ever since summer they told us about their "Design update" (which was really just a balance update, not a design change...) where they would be bringing mech/siege tanks up to par, and making Hydra a core unit for Zerg again.
Now 5 months later, they want to scrap the tank upgrade, and they already have scrapped the Hydra buff....?
Sooo basically the 5 months was just another bait & switch? Just like the LotV beta...
Way to go Blizzard. After all the talk about putting in work to improve the game, once again it's all reverted to the same problematic SC2 we have been stuck with for years.
This is the exact reason Blizzard no longer gets my money for SC2. They claim they will do better, but the development team on this game never changes. They are still pulling the same crap, tieing the community up in months of PR only to effectively use it as a justification to absolutely nothing, and in the end, BLAME THE COMMUNITY as the reason for not doing anything.
On January 20 2017 04:36 hiroshOne wrote:
Another feedback written on knee. Nothing about carriers, no love for hydras, and they started this feedback with sentence "Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixe"....Do they even play this game???LOL.
I think this has always spoken for itself.
I've some experience in game design, as well as I visited places like Full Sail when a friend of mine was attending for his masters in game design. You would be surprised how many game developers don't actually play games... It's sad.
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Well at least we can be thankful they arnt buffing photon overcharge 
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I really just wanna write my post as a one liner and write: "the developers don't play their own game anymore."
But i guess i'll just elaborate as usual and write the same post i have for over 1+ yr now of problems that have not been addressed with the game and the latest problems / balance issues that aren't addressed:
-carriers too strong, interceptor cost needs revert
-3 rax reaper coinflip is still in the game for some reason
-invulnerable nydus worm still in the game
-new swarmhost is ridiculously broken versus both protoss and mech
-infestor burrow cast is perma cloak....that needs to be reverted
-baneling buff way over the top, unneeded
-BC teleport cooldown way too low
-tempest still an oppressive lategame unit vs all races
-warp prism pick-up range is still too much
Those are issues that need looking at. The priority being swarmhosts and carriers.
It's absurd to me that the update jay wilson I MEAN david kim just put out says nothing about addressing swarmhosts, and then in the same post wants to simultaneously nerf TWO MECH UNITS ROFL.
Mech was made near unplayable on patch 3.8 because of swarmhost/carrier. Now they wanna nerf tanks and mines for no reason? Disgusting.
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PvT winrates fell below 40% this week, making it the second most imbalanced matchup in SC2 history statistically. I would really like to see a immediate Liberator or Siege Tank nerf personally, but anything to help that matchup should be pushed out really quick.
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how the game’s show since the major patch look great so far.
=\ such low standards. sigh
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Hey blizz, what about PvZ being unplayable w/o carriers?
About pvt:
- remove advanced ballistics from the game
- remove + shield damage on mines
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On January 20 2017 04:42 Pontius Pirate wrote:
Perhaps Liberators shouldn't 2-shot Stalkers without having to first invest in upgrades. I'd also like to see Stalkers given more wherewithal to clean out cleverly-positioned Liberators. If Zealots were just a touch better, that could also be helpful in those types of engagements, as well as encourage their usage in comparison with Adepts just a bit better. They die just a teeny bit too quickly.
I propose
Liberator ground damage reduced from 85 => 79
Liberator ground damage upgrade scaling 5 => 7
Stalker AA range 6 => 7 (ground range stays the same)
Zealot shields 50 => 60
stalkers have one armor so 80 would still 3-shot, and +5 per upgrade is enough :p
as for zealot shield they would still die in one shot to WM with this value
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Maaaan again nothing on Carriers ?
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On January 20 2017 05:06 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
PvT winrates fell below 40% this week, making it the second most imbalanced matchup in SC2 history statistically. I would really like to see a immediate Liberator or Siege Tank nerf personally, but anything to help that matchup should be pushed out really quick.
Why should we nerf the siege tank when we want to make it viable? Liberators are a unit which deserve a nerf. A siege unit which flies with insane dps.
Again a bad community update imo, there simply isn't any meat to these. Meh
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I think reducing the dmg of the liberator and also the radius of the liberation zone would be a good approach.
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On January 20 2017 05:01 avilo wrote:
I really just wanna write my post as a one liner and write: "the developers don't play their own game anymore."
But i guess i'll just elaborate as usual and write the same post i have for over 1+ yr now of problems that have not been addressed with the game and the latest problems / balance issues that aren't addressed:
-carriers too strong, interceptor cost needs revert
-3 rax reaper coinflip is still in the game for some reason
-invulnerable nydus worm still in the game
-new swarmhost is ridiculously broken versus both protoss and mech
-infestor burrow cast is perma cloak....that needs to be reverted
-baneling buff way over the top, unneeded
-BC teleport cooldown way too low
-tempest still an oppressive lategame unit vs all races
-warp prism pick-up range is still too much
Those are issues that need looking at. The priority being swarmhosts and carriers.
It's absurd to me that the update jay wilson I MEAN david kim just put out says nothing about addressing swarmhosts, and then in the same post wants to simultaneously nerf TWO MECH UNITS ROFL.
Mech was made near unplayable on patch 3.8 because of swarmhost/carrier. Now they wanna nerf tanks and mines for no reason? Disgusting.
You are still here on this forum and in the game for some reason. Sanity house is nearby hopefully
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They neverrrr help zerg. Doesn't matter that carriers have no counter (even in PvP!)? Doesn't matter that TvZ is still favored for terran?
Here are a few of my balance fixing options that I don't think I've heard very often (besides what I have to say about carriers):
Carrier: Make interceptors 5 more minerals (again) and/or remove release interceptor ability
Liberator: Fucking do something finally! This unit takes 3 clicks from a terran player to shutdown mineral lines, they dont even have to look at it. Just queue its position. It also is absolutely incredible at zoning. My suggestion is to make it a tad less beefy because it takes way too many queen/stalker/pheonix shots to kill them and/or slightly reduce the "freedom zone" size.
And here is my big one (something to consider): Terran have been benefitting from imba medivacs since they got the speed boost. I see zergs/terrans/protosses spot the medivac before it even gets to its destination and still dont have time to defend because the boost is basically blink for medivacs. I suggest removing this ability entirely. I would even be fine with giving the medivac a VERY slight natural speed boost as compensation. P.S I also think medivacs heal waaaay too fast, but I'll fight my battles one at a time haha.
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My god what is this random "window mine too strong vs shields" and "tank is too strong" bullshit omg...
Seriously what the hell are they thinking?
Fix reapers.
Fix battlecruiser teleport.
Fix swarm hosts.
Fix carriers.
Fix parasitic bomb.
In fact, fucking put all caster units (infestor, viper, raven, high templar) on 3 supply so this mass caster bullshit can finally end and we can play a proper RTS?
Meanwhile... Starcraft 2 twitch numbers are laughable at best
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I think siege tank damage needs to be reduced slightly. I'm glad that the medivac thing was fixed and the damage was increased, but based on the TvP numbers and the fact that siege tank lines are so hard to break in TvT especially, the damage may need to be reduced. This wouldn't affect TvZ too much.
To nerf liberators is just going to gimp terran in late-game TvZ more than they already are (unless you're Maru or Innovation). And I don't see a balance issue with liberators in TvT.
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The above
User was warned for this post
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he he
User was warned for this post
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Don't touch the siege tanks, PLEASE!
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On January 20 2017 05:24 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 05:01 avilo wrote:
I really just wanna write my post as a one liner and write: "the developers don't play their own game anymore."
But i guess i'll just elaborate as usual and write the same post i have for over 1+ yr now of problems that have not been addressed with the game and the latest problems / balance issues that aren't addressed:
-carriers too strong, interceptor cost needs revert
-3 rax reaper coinflip is still in the game for some reason
-invulnerable nydus worm still in the game
-new swarmhost is ridiculously broken versus both protoss and mech
-infestor burrow cast is perma cloak....that needs to be reverted
-baneling buff way over the top, unneeded
-BC teleport cooldown way too low
-tempest still an oppressive lategame unit vs all races
-warp prism pick-up range is still too much
Those are issues that need looking at. The priority being swarmhosts and carriers.
It's absurd to me that the update jay wilson I MEAN david kim just put out says nothing about addressing swarmhosts, and then in the same post wants to simultaneously nerf TWO MECH UNITS ROFL.
Mech was made near unplayable on patch 3.8 because of swarmhost/carrier. Now they wanna nerf tanks and mines for no reason? Disgusting. You are still here on this forum and in the game for some reason. Sanity house is nearby hopefully
Ikr =/ like a lot of you fellow teamliquidians i'm a sucker for punishment it seems. Always hoping the blizz balance team will wake up. Then reality strikes and every update just hits hard knowing the devs don't actually play their own game =/
Just keep fighting guys...blizzard...they'll listen eventually...right? @_@
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Yeah that's pretty neat not gonna lie. First skin/announcer in sc2 i really want to have. Hopefully more other awesome stuff follows, they are a bit slow in that regard imo.
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On January 20 2017 04:02 Charoisaur wrote:
Hydralisk buffs
We heard your feedback, and it sounds like majority of you would like to shelf the Hydralisk buff for now. We’ll revisit this discussion if concerns about the unit come up again.
oh really? what a surprise, like who would have thought that terrans and protoss (approx. 2/3, therefore majority) would be against a zerg buff. as if it isn't always like 2 races against 1 for every nerf or buff. so please for every buff from now on lets wait first if we get a majority. good luck.
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It's pretty clear by now that Activision has no purpose of fixing the game, ever.
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I really would like having tankivacs back...
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Nerf the shit out of the Liberator, not Tanks.
- Libs an explosive issue with harassment (so we can nerf Queen range)
- Libs kill Muta play
- Libs are massable and bypass terrain, so they have ZERO of the drawback of the tank
Then when they're done nerfing Liberators the bandaid can be pulled off completely, and we can re-add the fucking Vulture to fix mech positional play
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They should nerf the liberator or the widow mine. The tank isn't even used that much in TvP. Maybe 1 or 2 at the start of the game, but the liberator/widow mine is much more used.
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On January 20 2017 06:29 Lunareste wrote:
- Libs kill Muta play
they don't, launch the game before you post
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On January 20 2017 06:52 Ej_ wrote:they don't, launch the game before you post
Or rather the right version 
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Perhaps they're waiting on the new map pool to kick in before making a final judgement on PvT balance
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State of the game
The overall quality of the events around the world seem pretty solid. Of course there will always be balance issues here and there that we will work on, but how the game’s show since the major patch look great so far.
Therefore, we wanted to congratulate everyone that has contributed towards making the game the way it is! Congratulations to the pro players out there who really push the limits of the game, the viewers who keep SC2 going strong, our community who work so hard to improve the game together with us, and everyone behind the scenes to make everything happen! Thank you!
They must have some really strong stuff over in California or heck maybe the water supply over here is full of LSD. I could not agree less and I think there is something completely flawed about the balance process and this community feedback.
Generally, right now T is clearly much stronger than P and Z and there are issues with PvZ. Statistics are misleading. Only top zerg players participate in most online tournaments making the statistics flawed. You will very frequently find Snute, Nerchio, Solar, Elazer, participate, while you will not find Showtime, Innovation, Marinelord, Neeb, Drogo, Major participating in such tournaments. Aligulac stats makes this even worse. The data distribution is unequal. You have to watch games and gather feedback from equally qualified players. Lets say - top 20 wcs players (Korea and Europe) and you will get the picture right.
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Leave the tank as it is and Let it perform the positional, area of control function. Instead nerf liberator or even better remove it from the game. It creates more stupid interactions than desirable ones.
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as i said many times before theres way to improve mech with cyclone, if Blizz doesnt want to buff damage overall of lockon pls, just pls short the time of shooting from 14 seconds to like so instead of 1 misslie doing 8 damage 1 shot would do 16 without changeing the damage overall. Also i still think hydras should get a buff, +10/15 hp seems good or +1armor at start or both even so unit is not that squishy as its damage is ok, nerf mines but buff cyclone AA . Also yeah libs should be nerfed a bit.
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I think they shouldn't nerf the tank honestly. Widow mine shield nerf might be decent but what i really want is a lib nerf like everyone has been saying on twitter/reddit/etc. I feel in current patch toning down the liberator is acceptable with how strong tanks are unlike in old pvt balance where you could practically a-move tanks.
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Lets reduce the damage of Libs but then give them back the karger Circle or more Range. Alternatively give them cloak.
I'm fine with less +shield damage on Widowmines, but then give them an effective cloak like other burrowed Units....
Reduce Tank damage is also ok if larvae will cost supply and Build Time of Probes will be 10% more
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Does anyone else wonder at this point if maps are not a more central issue?
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.. because the desire to start testing specific changes is there within the community...
Apparently the community believes that the game should be balanced at least for pros, and thinks that PvT at 42% is not balanced... Absurd! Irrational!
reducing the +shield damage of Widow Mines
This is the right call, liberators and tanks defend pretty good by themselves
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The problem with TvP, I think is that:
The units Terran cheeses with are also the units it defends cheese with
The units it harasses with are also useful late in the game (widow mine drop openings every game, anyone?)
Tanks/Liberators offer the best space control in the game and Terran bio is also the most mobile composition ******
Also, Liberators and Cyclones both beat the shit out of Stalkers. But unless you open Stargate (blindly) you can't deal with Libs.
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On January 20 2017 05:11 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 04:42 Pontius Pirate wrote:
Perhaps Liberators shouldn't 2-shot Stalkers without having to first invest in upgrades. I'd also like to see Stalkers given more wherewithal to clean out cleverly-positioned Liberators. If Zealots were just a touch better, that could also be helpful in those types of engagements, as well as encourage their usage in comparison with Adepts just a bit better. They die just a teeny bit too quickly.
I propose
Liberator ground damage reduced from 85 => 79
Liberator ground damage upgrade scaling 5 => 7
Stalker AA range 6 => 7 (ground range stays the same)
Zealot shields 50 => 60
stalkers have one armor so 80 would still 3-shot, and +5 per upgrade is enough :p as for zealot shield they would still die in one shot to WM with this value
Oops, my math is terrible. I wouldn't want to increase much health for Zealots unless they replaced charge with zealot legs. It definitely sounds like a reduction in WM shield damage would be the only appropriate solution. In an ideal world, the unit interactions would be adjusted such that Zealots can tank a single WM shot, but Adepts cannot. That might not be achievable wihout a major patch shifting around tons of different gateway units' strength.
I think the way I would do it would be to change the splash profile.
It is curently set to 40 + 40 shields in 1.75 radius
I would be interested in seeing it tested with 35 in 2 radius and + 3shields in 1 radius. This makes WM significantly less threatening against Probes, less effective against big clumps of Zealots and Stalkers, and helps to bring back Terran's HotS ability to pressure Zerg in the midgame, slightly compensating for the buffed Banelings.
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Norway839 Posts
bringing a matchup to +-10% on aligulac is a huge red flag and a feat in and of itself. even with the <insert your favorite aligulac flaws here>
surprised not to see it written out with a bit more concern for pvt
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Widow mines not doing bonus to shields would be a good place to start. Between mines, tanks, and liberators, space control is insanely good or the Terran.
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On January 20 2017 08:19 Liquid`Snute wrote:
bringing a matchup to +-10% on aligulac is a huge red flag and a feat in and of itself. even with the <insert your favorite aligulac flaws here>
surprised not to see it written out with a bit more concern for pvt
I feel like mentioning the matchup by name and saying there's a problem is already way better than they've done historically.
That's DK speak for WERE WORKING ON IT :D
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EDIT: accidental double post
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Just drastically reduce the WM shield damage on splash so that it's closer proportionally to the shield damage on the primary hit. Something like +15 or +10 to shields should make a big difference (goes from 3-shotting gateway units to 4-shotting, no longer one-shots sentries and templar).
The WM shield damage was a bandaid for HoTS TvP anyway. Now that Terran has other strong zoning tools there's no reason to keep it so strong--it makes absolutely no sense that the WM splash does MORE +damage to shields than the primary hit.
Tanks should be left alone, since they're only used in timings, not in macro TvP, and they are used in TvZ.
Protoss seem to deal with Liberators just fine once they get their colossus/disruptor deathball rolling, so any changes should be focused around nerfing their early-game potential (bring back ground-mode upgrade or add an armory requirement or reduce ground damage to 80 so it no longer 2-shots stalkers without upgrades).
But the WM change should definitely go in ASAP.
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I agree with the widow mine change, the liberator deserves a nerf as well though (or a removal from the game )
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I'd say removing (or significantly lowering) the widow mine +Shields damage on the splash and getting rid of the liberator range upgrade would be a good way to go. Maybe slightly nerf anti ground damage so stalkers survive 2 shots without upgrades.
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On January 20 2017 05:25 TentativePanda wrote:
They neverrrr help zerg. Doesn't matter that carriers have no counter (even in PvP!)? Doesn't matter that TvZ is still favored for terran?
Here are a few of my balance fixing options that I don't think I've heard very often (besides what I have to say about carriers):
Carrier: Make interceptors 5 more minerals (again) and/or remove release interceptor ability
Liberator: Fucking do something finally! This unit takes 3 clicks from a terran player to shutdown mineral lines, they dont even have to look at it. Just queue its position. It also is absolutely incredible at zoning. My suggestion is to make it a tad less beefy because it takes way too many queen/stalker/pheonix shots to kill them and/or slightly reduce the "freedom zone" size.
And here is my big one (something to consider): Terran have been benefitting from imba medivacs since they got the speed boost. I see zergs/terrans/protosses spot the medivac before it even gets to its destination and still dont have time to defend because the boost is basically blink for medivacs. I suggest removing this ability entirely. I would even be fine with giving the medivac a VERY slight natural speed boost as compensation. P.S I also think medivacs heal waaaay too fast, but I'll fight my battles one at a time haha.
Wait.... The release intereceptor ability is back ?
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I think Liberators without range are pretty interesting, and different enough from the tank to be worth keeping around. Especially the mechanic of having to constantly reposition the freedom circles while making sure that the Liberator itself isn't parked right on top of them (someone like Ty is really good at this). Plus the Terran late-game in both non-mirrors heavily depends on Liberators so you can't really nerf their raw combat power without overhauling the game.
So I would support removing the range upgrade, and maybe replacing it with a faster siege/unsiege upgrade for flavor (given that it's still on the fusion core it's going to be pretty niche). But I don't think Liberator range is the problem with TvP-- Protoss does fine when it comes to big army vs army fights.
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On January 20 2017 08:51 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 05:25 TentativePanda wrote:
They neverrrr help zerg. Doesn't matter that carriers have no counter (even in PvP!)? Doesn't matter that TvZ is still favored for terran?
Here are a few of my balance fixing options that I don't think I've heard very often (besides what I have to say about carriers):
Carrier: Make interceptors 5 more minerals (again) and/or remove release interceptor ability
Liberator: Fucking do something finally! This unit takes 3 clicks from a terran player to shutdown mineral lines, they dont even have to look at it. Just queue its position. It also is absolutely incredible at zoning. My suggestion is to make it a tad less beefy because it takes way too many queen/stalker/pheonix shots to kill them and/or slightly reduce the "freedom zone" size.
And here is my big one (something to consider): Terran have been benefitting from imba medivacs since they got the speed boost. I see zergs/terrans/protosses spot the medivac before it even gets to its destination and still dont have time to defend because the boost is basically blink for medivacs. I suggest removing this ability entirely. I would even be fine with giving the medivac a VERY slight natural speed boost as compensation. P.S I also think medivacs heal waaaay too fast, but I'll fight my battles one at a time haha. Wait.... The release intereceptor ability is back ?
It's not back.
The current Carrier is identical to the WoL/HotS Carrier other than Interceptor cost being reduced from 25 to 10 and Carrier health being reduced from 300 to 250. Reverting the Interceptor cost buff without adding another counteracting buff will make the Carrier worse than it has ever been, and it was pretty dang useless before.
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I still don't understand why liberators are even in the game to begin with tbh, but yeah removing units doesn't seem to be an option at this point so i am ok with a nerf. Not sure in what way though
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if you are going to alter Terran in any way please make ground units stronger and Air Units weaker.
so if you must nerf Terran please make it an air unit that you nerf.
if you must buff Terran please make it a ground unit.
now that the Tank is finally strong please do not nerf it. Nerf anything in the air or even some other ground unit, but please do not nerf the Tank.
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Norway839 Posts
On January 20 2017 08:59 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 08:51 FFW_Rude wrote:On January 20 2017 05:25 TentativePanda wrote:
They neverrrr help zerg. Doesn't matter that carriers have no counter (even in PvP!)? Doesn't matter that TvZ is still favored for terran?
Here are a few of my balance fixing options that I don't think I've heard very often (besides what I have to say about carriers):
Carrier: Make interceptors 5 more minerals (again) and/or remove release interceptor ability
Liberator: Fucking do something finally! This unit takes 3 clicks from a terran player to shutdown mineral lines, they dont even have to look at it. Just queue its position. It also is absolutely incredible at zoning. My suggestion is to make it a tad less beefy because it takes way too many queen/stalker/pheonix shots to kill them and/or slightly reduce the "freedom zone" size.
And here is my big one (something to consider): Terran have been benefitting from imba medivacs since they got the speed boost. I see zergs/terrans/protosses spot the medivac before it even gets to its destination and still dont have time to defend because the boost is basically blink for medivacs. I suggest removing this ability entirely. I would even be fine with giving the medivac a VERY slight natural speed boost as compensation. P.S I also think medivacs heal waaaay too fast, but I'll fight my battles one at a time haha. Wait.... The release intereceptor ability is back ? It's not back. The current Carrier is identical to the WoL/HotS Carrier other than Interceptor cost being reduced from 25 to 10 and Carrier health being reduced from 300 to 250. Reverting the Interceptor cost buff without adding another counteracting buff will make the Carrier worse than it has ever been, and it was pretty dang useless before.
also don't forget that the primary reason carriers were useless before (vs zerg) was the old swarmhost. without templar support and the ease for zerg to get static defense, carriers were useless compared to their superior tempest counterpart.
we might have seen some carriers towards the end of heart of the swarm, had not 200/200 protoss with tempest been the superior alternative that fit better into the standard game flow framework.
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I'll disagree with you here on a tiny point, with 25 mineral interceptor in a split map scenario fungal + wall of spores dealt with carrier just fine.
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Please leave the tank alone, we finally have a strong positional mech unit again. Nerf the Liberator's ground damage instead.
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On January 20 2017 08:03 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Does anyone else wonder at this point if maps are not a more central issue?
Yes. It feels like a lot of the maps were not fully ready for lotv, and so I'm hopeful that the new maps might be able to do SOMEthing.
But we'll see I guess, since nothing else is happening in the immediate future
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Hydras... no... not my hydras...
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Congratulations for making the game worse guys. We complained for 5 years about protoss being able to turtle into a deathball and amove, and now turtle mech and airtoss got buffed, which basicaly undo everything LotV was supposed to fix.
Btw, people wanted hydralisks to counter interceptors better, not leave the unit as it is. All you needed to do was adding a extra +1 armor upgrade for hydras or some shit. But i guess the children from balance team got mad we didn't like their idea and will give us nothing.
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On January 20 2017 09:52 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 08:03 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Does anyone else wonder at this point if maps are not a more central issue?
Yes. It feels like a lot of the maps were not fully ready for lotv, and so I'm hopeful that the new maps might be able to do SOMEthing. But we'll see I guess, since nothing else is happening in the immediate future
Agree, maps like echo had a lot of dead air space (and Echo is one of many), something which made libs and skytoss stronger (may be skyterran as well).
On this map pool I had many issues with libs even though they were nerfed compared to the pre-patch.
I guess thats why there is no hurry with balance at the moment, as it won't give that much info. The win ratios on these maps wouldn't have been similar to that with the maps of the previous pool (with the current version). I hope many of these issues will be solved with the following map pool.
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On January 20 2017 10:14 bulya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 09:52 reneg wrote:On January 20 2017 08:03 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Does anyone else wonder at this point if maps are not a more central issue?
Yes. It feels like a lot of the maps were not fully ready for lotv, and so I'm hopeful that the new maps might be able to do SOMEthing. But we'll see I guess, since nothing else is happening in the immediate future Agree, maps like echo had a lot of dead air space (and Echo is one of many), something which made libs and skytoss stronger (may be skyterran as well). On this map pool I had many issues with libs even though they were nerfed compared to the pre-patch. I guess thats why there is no hurry with balance at the moment, as it won't give that much info. The win ratios on these maps wouldn't have been similar to that with the maps of the previous pool (with the current version). I hope many of these issues will be solved with the following map pool.
The maps definitely make Raven mineral line harassment a lot more viable than it would be on a more normal map pool where you can't just fly them in and out with little chance of losing them except to air units.
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Are people really fine with blizzard completely ignoring the absurdity of swarmhosts and carriers while simultaneously saying they are going to nerf 3 mech units? @_@ i mean come on..."mech viability" right...
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NO
DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE NERF THE SIEGE TANK AGAIN
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CAN A PATCH BE OUT LONGER THAN 5 WEEKS BEFORE THERE IS A NERF??? Why does this always happen with Terran and not other races. Terran's are asked to "deal" with things like BL/Infestor, 8 armor ultra, swarm hosts, mass adepts, blink stalker all-ins - FOR MONTHS (in some cases entire expansions). Then one patch comes out, with very little data, then it's "Yup, we need to nerf Terran."
Do you people realize WM's have not been changed for YEARS? Liberator has been nerfed TWICE into oblivion and no longer counter any anti-air? Tankivacs were removed, so the balance was offset by a stronger tank. We haven't even seen a new map pool since this patch went live!
Why is there not talk about the cost of SH being the cost of a Maurader? Or Carriers dominating late game with inteceptors essentially being free? Deal with it kids. You sound like whiney brats; in which some people posting sound like they have not even played the game in months.
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On January 20 2017 09:44 PtitDrogo wrote:
I'll disagree with you here on a tiny point, with 25 mineral interceptor in a split map scenario fungal + wall of spores dealt with carrier just fine.
But do we really want that to be the way to beat carriers? How boring is that? For Zergs to have to sit on their asses with spores + fungal. Yeah it deals with it, but is it really how we want it to be dealt with? Anything that requires a specific race to turtle with static D + units to beat an army composition needs to be changed or that leads to boring games.
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With the new balance patch terran was mainly buffed in the early game (reactored new cyclones) while protoss was nerfed in the early game (adept shade vision, warp prism health). In the mid game there are changes but it seems like they favor terran (vikings viable vs most ground protoss units, ravens have use for not only scouting observers but harass and front on fights, tanks deal 70 damage to buildings and many protoss units) while protoss changed but there were no real buffs to the mid game (the charglot is the only buff, is it?, seems like there is no use for DT blink). The late game was changed for terran and protoss, both skytoss and skyterran were buffed, but the main protoss counter to libs and skyterran was nerfed (tempest is more supply and less ground range).
So it looks like as protoss it is mainly surviving the early game, getting to the mid game, either winning there somehow surviving till the late game while terran have even more tools to harass in the early game now.
I'm a zerg player, so I'm not biased when it comes to PvT, and I offrace with both.
I didn't see pro games getting to the late game in PvT lately.
A change which will effect only PvT games without interfering with TvZ and PvZ is a widow mine change which will nerf its splash bonus to shield.
So either the new map pool will show us that PvT is playable for protoss, or some change will have to be made.
Regarding the timing, hydras were already nerfed, carriers as well, the terran nerf is still considered (even though a nerf was actually reverted with the cyclone having its full range from the get go without an upgrade).
So I don't see anything wrong with the timing. I guess the only problem is the change of the map pool, and both changes can't be done together as it will not show us the real consequences of the balance change.
Thus, either protoss will find it easier in PvT on the new map pool or a change will be necessary.
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get rid of liberators altogether.. dont touch anything else
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It worries me a bit when Community / Balance Feedback Updates come out and it says "We heard what you said, and we're going to do what you said".
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Yeah basically all they do now it seems.
Community balancing the game seems good.
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On January 20 2017 11:20 SirPinky wrote:
CAN A PATCH BE OUT LONGER THAN 5 WEEKS BEFORE THERE IS A NERF??? Why does this always happen with Terran and not other races. Terran's are asked to "deal" with things like BL/Infestor, 8 armor ultra, swarm hosts, mass adepts, blink stalker all-ins - FOR MONTHS (in some cases entire expansions). Then one patch comes out, with very little data, then it's "Yup, we need to nerf Terran."
Do you people realize WM's have not been changed for YEARS? Liberator has been nerfed TWICE into oblivion and no longer counter any anti-air? Tankivacs were removed, so the balance was offset by a stronger tank. We haven't even seen a new map pool since this patch went live!
I can speak for the Protoss issues for Terran.
The widow mine was buffed late July 2014, which was after Terran had started to win again against Protoss through Protoss nerfs and maps that were not good for blink all ins. Actually, fun fact, Terran and Protoss both had the same number of mirror finals and a very similar number of premier tournament wins in 2014. If the first half was the blink era, then the second half was certainly the widowmine era. It took Protoss many months to fully deal with widowmines. (Though, it did culminate in Protoss in late 2015 completely shutting down widowmine drops)
And despite aligulac's flaws, there has been no recent period in LotV or HotS where Terran has had a matchup at a 40% winrate. In recent history, there have been two times where Protoss had around a 40% winrate (admittedly one of those times was when LotV launched, but that still counts). Also, it's been almost two months since the patch went live, and we've seen quite a few games since then.
This has actually happened a number of times with Protoss and Zerg, where they were asked to "deal with it." I can mainly speak to Protoss in that respect, but both the widowmine, the liberator, and the marauder (to a cetain degree) were all things that they had to "get used to."
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bring back the siege upgrade for tanks so maybe these plat whiners will stop lose to 1-1-1 in pvt, liberators should 3 shot stalkers, widow mines should be able to 1shot adepts and zealots after nerf tho.
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I'm for the Lib nerf. Leave the Tank and Mine alone.
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On January 20 2017 12:24 Phredxor wrote:
Yeah basically all they do now it seems.
Community balancing the game seems good.
Don't you see?
That's just PR talk to try to make the community feel like their being listened to.
In reality, they are doing whatever they want anyway.
If we're talking about feedback, they can say "we're listening to you" for ANY damn thing. Someone has said they want exactly what they are giving us, somewhere.
But in reality, they don't care. If a majority of the user base is unhappy, it hasn't made a difference. And they have made decisions and said they "listened to the community" with things you barely heard anyone say...
It's all excuses for them to not actually have to put in work make any progress in competitive SC2.
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i win my mech tvp because of mines more than libs but would rather libs get a nerf over mines. and plz dont touch the tank i like it finally.
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Once again, Blizzard gives Zerg and Protoss the middle finger. PvT is the worst any matchup has been balance-wise since early WoL and barely an iota of acknowledgement. David Kim has no idea what he's doing with this game, and he has too much ego to admit it.
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consider ZVP too pls.. nerf banelings and carriers pls..
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Aw, I think the hydra buff could be really amazing for new playstyles
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i miss state of the game
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Liberator need Cooldown in anti ground mode or less dps for the tank
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I personally feel the big problem is widow mines. Liberators are strong, sure, but an entire playstyle can't exist because of a 75/25 unit. I personally really enjoyed going zealot/archon/HT in WOL and would give anything to be able to do so again. It's simply a fun way to play the game.
Even if this playstyle were allowed to exist, the new tank + liberators would still be good against it. There's no reason to have widow mines do such insane damage to protoss.
I don't even mind liberators that much. They're strong, but they are able to be dealt with.
Playing against a huge terran army with mines feels impossible as Terran will simply scan until they can kill the observer(s) and then theres no way to engage without huge, huge losses.
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I think nothing about Terran need to be nerfed if you want any possibility of Mech works, especially for Mech with tank.
The problem is that Protoss lacks AA. Stalker just doesn't have enough strength to deal with Air. All the cancer like mass-Phoenix in PvP, Liberation of TvP, GGLords of ZvP, all arise from the faulty design of fearing mass blink stalker too strong whereas buffing Phoenix/Tempest way too strong.
Split the AA weapon of stalkers and gave Protoss more reliable AA in Gate units, in exchange of less reliance on the high-tier, single usage units (aka Tempest). Nerfing Tank/Widow Mine/Liberator, then we will just go back to Bio TvP. and also affecting the TvZ. Davyie please don't going the wrong direction.
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On January 20 2017 04:34 bObA wrote:
Protoss has been being OP vs terran for months, terran should adapt with everything and for only 2 or 3 weeks it seems there is a bit too op for terran and immediately we are talking about nerfing Terran...
When Protoss was imba in multiple ways, terran should find strategies and adapt to survive.
I remember the time when Innovation TY and Maru got rekt by Zest stats and $o$.
And as a terran player, we lost tankivas for a damage buff and now what ? we won't have tankivas anymore and the buff will be cancelled ?
I have to agree with this quote for the most part. Colossus were insane towards the end of HotS and that unit was never nerfed. Instead, it took innovative play from Maru and then the rest of Terran players (splitting your army up, doing multiple drops and pressure to try to pick off lonely colossus, sometimes pulling the boys for an army vs army fight) to re-balance the game and even then, Protoss had a huge advantage late game. Now everyone just wants updates after 2-3 weeks when they've barely even begun to figure out how to adapt to the new patch.
Tanks might be strong early-mid game, but it is cool to actually see them in the TvP matchup for once. It'd be nice to see them stick around. Protosses are also beginning to figure out how to stop 2 base tank and their late game armies are still pretty strong.
I'd say at least give it time before they mess around with nerfs. The community loves to QQ when they see imbalances, but this is without radically changing play to adapt to deal with it first.
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^^ The problem is that Widomines were buffed in HOTS to give Terran valid splash damage vs Protoss. In LOTV they introduced Liberators and buffed powerful tanks. Now Terran has 3 units with zoning/splash vs Toss and this is overkill. So i think it's pretty much logical to nerf WM when Tanks are viable in TvP now.
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On January 20 2017 16:41 iRope wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 04:34 bObA wrote:
Protoss has been being OP vs terran for months, terran should adapt with everything and for only 2 or 3 weeks it seems there is a bit too op for terran and immediately we are talking about nerfing Terran...
When Protoss was imba in multiple ways, terran should find strategies and adapt to survive.
I remember the time when Innovation TY and Maru got rekt by Zest stats and $o$.
And as a terran player, we lost tankivas for a damage buff and now what ? we won't have tankivas anymore and the buff will be cancelled ? I have to agree with this quote for the most part. Colossus were insane towards the end of HotS and that unit was never nerfed. Instead, it took innovative play from Maru and then the rest of Terran players (splitting your army up, doing multiple drops and pressure to try to pick off lonely colossus, sometimes pulling the boys for an army vs army fight) to re-balance the game and even then, Protoss had a huge advantage late game. Now everyone just wants updates after 2-3 weeks when they've barely even begun to figure out how to adapt to the new patch. Tanks might be strong early-mid game, but it is cool to actually see them in the TvP matchup for once. It'd be nice to see them stick around. Protosses are also beginning to figure out how to stop 2 base tank and their late game armies are still pretty strong. I'd say at least give it time before they mess around with nerfs. The community loves to QQ when they see imbalances, but this is without radically changing play to adapt to deal with it first.
there is nothing to figure out protoss units just cant trade efficiently 3.8 buffed terran and zerg and protoss got shafted. now that people are refining builds in 3.8 the balance difference is becoming more clear. carriers and all ins are the only things that are holding up pvz winrate otherwise it would be as bad as pvt
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On January 20 2017 09:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I still don't understand why liberators are even in the game to begin with tbh, but yeah removing units doesn't seem to be an option at this point so i am ok with a nerf. Not sure in what way though
Well Blizzard really wanted to be fair for all races when giving new units in LotV so they had to introduce second unit for Terran. Community was asking for strong tanks since forever so instead of buffing them they basically gave us flying siege tank. The idea was totally wrong because this way we have 2 overlapping units but at that time it seemed necessary due to TvP balance. Actually similar situation was with +shield buff to WM when Protoss was outperforming Terran so they overbuffed 1 unit to rebalance winrates but at the same time removing chargelot/Templar playstyle from the game.
I am on the same ground as You with liberator.
The best would be if siege tank take over the lib role of strong frontal siege unit and lib removed from the game.
However removing unit from the game would be probably impossible to force so at least nerf lib and buff the tank more if necessary.
I mean, please tell me fellow Terran players do you even like to play with liberators? Is it satisfying feeling to move them around siege here and there.
Is it FUN?
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Hated the liberator as a unit since Lotv day 1 and how it two shots a stalker, which is the main ground to air damage dealer for protoss (sigh), but I think it's time to nerf the WM. That bandaid bonus damage vs shield is not needed anymore because of strong tanks/libs.
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On January 20 2017 16:41 iRope wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 04:34 bObA wrote:
Protoss has been being OP vs terran for months, terran should adapt with everything and for only 2 or 3 weeks it seems there is a bit too op for terran and immediately we are talking about nerfing Terran...
When Protoss was imba in multiple ways, terran should find strategies and adapt to survive.
I remember the time when Innovation TY and Maru got rekt by Zest stats and $o$.
And as a terran player, we lost tankivas for a damage buff and now what ? we won't have tankivas anymore and the buff will be cancelled ? I have to agree with this quote for the most part. Colossus were insane towards the end of HotS and that unit was never nerfed. Instead, it took innovative play from Maru and then the rest of Terran players (splitting your army up, doing multiple drops and pressure to try to pick off lonely colossus, sometimes pulling the boys for an army vs army fight) to re-balance the game and even then, Protoss had a huge advantage late game. Now everyone just wants updates after 2-3 weeks when they've barely even begun to figure out how to adapt to the new patch. Tanks might be strong early-mid game, but it is cool to actually see them in the TvP matchup for once. It'd be nice to see them stick around. Protosses are also beginning to figure out how to stop 2 base tank and their late game armies are still pretty strong. I'd say at least give it time before they mess around with nerfs. The community loves to QQ when they see imbalances, but this is without radically changing play to adapt to deal with it first.
The Colossus was never nerfed because it couldn't be nerfed. Protoss had two (sort of three) aoe options: Colossus or High Templar. The problem with going High Templar was that it was generally more risky than going Colossus, and early game you could only go one path. Actually, there used to be Chargelot/Archon/High Templar, but the widow mine killed that.
Without aoe, Protoss units are incredibly fragile lategame. Protoss did not have a "huge" advantage. Were they more favoured late game? Yes, but they were also quite vulnerable to multi-prong drops.
Besides, do you remember when this patch came out? November 22 (aggregating from the 19-24), and that means that it came out nearly two months ago. So, it hasn't been out for two-three weeks, and people are complaining; it's been out for almost eight weeks, and winrates have not improved.
Also, I don't think it's really the tanks; from what I've seen, it's the liberators in combination with widow mines and tanks and the Protoss inability to engage the liberators without incurring heavy losses.
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i say nerf all air units and than work from there.
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On January 20 2017 17:34 starslayer wrote:
i say nerf all air units and than work from there.
I would really like to see something done about mobility and ignoring terrain, honestly. Love my ground positional play.
doesn't do much good to cry about how fast medivacs are as it won't ever change but it's something thats bothered me since hots came out.
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On January 20 2017 17:33 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 16:41 iRope wrote:On January 20 2017 04:34 bObA wrote:
Protoss has been being OP vs terran for months, terran should adapt with everything and for only 2 or 3 weeks it seems there is a bit too op for terran and immediately we are talking about nerfing Terran...
When Protoss was imba in multiple ways, terran should find strategies and adapt to survive.
I remember the time when Innovation TY and Maru got rekt by Zest stats and $o$.
And as a terran player, we lost tankivas for a damage buff and now what ? we won't have tankivas anymore and the buff will be cancelled ? I have to agree with this quote for the most part. Colossus were insane towards the end of HotS and that unit was never nerfed. Instead, it took innovative play from Maru and then the rest of Terran players (splitting your army up, doing multiple drops and pressure to try to pick off lonely colossus, sometimes pulling the boys for an army vs army fight) to re-balance the game and even then, Protoss had a huge advantage late game. Now everyone just wants updates after 2-3 weeks when they've barely even begun to figure out how to adapt to the new patch. Tanks might be strong early-mid game, but it is cool to actually see them in the TvP matchup for once. It'd be nice to see them stick around. Protosses are also beginning to figure out how to stop 2 base tank and their late game armies are still pretty strong. I'd say at least give it time before they mess around with nerfs. The community loves to QQ when they see imbalances, but this is without radically changing play to adapt to deal with it first. The Colossus was never nerfed because it couldn't be nerfed. Protoss had two (sort of three) aoe options: Colossus or High Templar. The problem with going High Templar was that it was generally more risky than going Colossus, and early game you could only go one path. Actually, there used to be Chargelot/Archon/High Templar, but the widow mine killed that. Without aoe, Protoss units are incredibly fragile lategame. Protoss did not have a "huge" advantage. Were they more favoured late game? Yes, but they were also quite vulnerable to multi-prong drops. Besides, do you remember when this patch came out? November 22 (aggregating from the 19-24), and that means that it came out nearly two months ago. So, it hasn't been out for two-three weeks, and people are complaining; it's been out for almost eight weeks, and winrates have not improved. Also, I don't think it's really the tanks; from what I've seen, it's the liberators in combination with widow mines and tanks and the Protoss inability to engage the liberators without incurring heavy losses.
You could never fight Protoss lategame in HotS, but I agree that it's more WM than tanks
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On January 20 2017 17:37 iRope wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 17:33 FrkFrJss wrote:On January 20 2017 16:41 iRope wrote:On January 20 2017 04:34 bObA wrote:
Protoss has been being OP vs terran for months, terran should adapt with everything and for only 2 or 3 weeks it seems there is a bit too op for terran and immediately we are talking about nerfing Terran...
When Protoss was imba in multiple ways, terran should find strategies and adapt to survive.
I remember the time when Innovation TY and Maru got rekt by Zest stats and $o$.
And as a terran player, we lost tankivas for a damage buff and now what ? we won't have tankivas anymore and the buff will be cancelled ? I have to agree with this quote for the most part. Colossus were insane towards the end of HotS and that unit was never nerfed. Instead, it took innovative play from Maru and then the rest of Terran players (splitting your army up, doing multiple drops and pressure to try to pick off lonely colossus, sometimes pulling the boys for an army vs army fight) to re-balance the game and even then, Protoss had a huge advantage late game. Now everyone just wants updates after 2-3 weeks when they've barely even begun to figure out how to adapt to the new patch. Tanks might be strong early-mid game, but it is cool to actually see them in the TvP matchup for once. It'd be nice to see them stick around. Protosses are also beginning to figure out how to stop 2 base tank and their late game armies are still pretty strong. I'd say at least give it time before they mess around with nerfs. The community loves to QQ when they see imbalances, but this is without radically changing play to adapt to deal with it first. The Colossus was never nerfed because it couldn't be nerfed. Protoss had two (sort of three) aoe options: Colossus or High Templar. The problem with going High Templar was that it was generally more risky than going Colossus, and early game you could only go one path. Actually, there used to be Chargelot/Archon/High Templar, but the widow mine killed that. Without aoe, Protoss units are incredibly fragile lategame. Protoss did not have a "huge" advantage. Were they more favoured late game? Yes, but they were also quite vulnerable to multi-prong drops. Besides, do you remember when this patch came out? November 22 (aggregating from the 19-24), and that means that it came out nearly two months ago. So, it hasn't been out for two-three weeks, and people are complaining; it's been out for almost eight weeks, and winrates have not improved. Also, I don't think it's really the tanks; from what I've seen, it's the liberators in combination with widow mines and tanks and the Protoss inability to engage the liberators without incurring heavy losses. You could never fight Protoss lategame in HotS, but I agree that it's more WM than tanks
Actually you can, and there are many good games that went to the late game with Terran and Protoss. I do agree with you that Protoss did hold a bit of an advantage, but they held no more of an advantage than Terran did in the early mid-game.
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Actually you can, and there are many good games that went to the late game with Terran and Protoss. I do agree with you that Protoss did hold a bit of an advantage, but they held no more of an advantage than Terran did in the early mid-game.
Taeja comes to mind. An absolute monster in Late game TvP.
Just required perfect decision making and control but it was always a treat to see.
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On January 20 2017 04:34 bObA wrote:
Protoss has been being OP vs terran for months, terran should adapt with everything and for only 2 or 3 weeks it seems there is a bit too op for terran and immediately we are talking about nerfing Terran...
When Protoss was imba in multiple ways, terran should find strategies and adapt to survive.
I remember the time when Innovation TY and Maru got rekt by Zest stats and $o$.
And as a terran player, we lost tankivas for a damage buff and now what ? we won't have tankivas anymore and the buff will be cancelled ?
This is so wrong. Protoss always have to wait and see and figure out the meta game first, before Dkim reacts. Zest, Stats and sOs is as great as Innovation, TY and Maru and Tanks have received a huge buff and will likely not have any nerf.
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Swarmhost nerf so i can play mech every game plsssssssssssssss
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Welcome to another episode of community balancing starcraft.
Email us your creative ideas to balance "insert unit" and while you are at it give us feedback on these community suggestions we saw on reddit just the other day. Bonus: This time we gathered feedback from our pro players, mind giving us feedback on the feedback the pros provided us?
So during my Christmas holidays i decided to browse teamliquid (yes i was bored) and i found this www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/153275-sick-new-unit-idea i was wondering what the community thinks. This could be a cool unit and would do terrible damage.
Love you all.
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Blizz pls do not nerf the TANK, do smth to lib and mine but leave tanks alone
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PvT is fine, toss just changing so often and not everyone can adapt that quickly.
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Why not add a poll to every feedback update? All things talked about should have alternatives similar to "don't change this", " change this" and "I have no strong opinion on the matter".
Hydra buff: don't change it by adding 10 hp, change it by adding 10 hp, meh
Widow mine shield damage: don't change it by lowering damage vs shield, change it by lowering damage vs shields, meh
Etc.
This way it will be way clearer what the team liquid community think instead of having to read through the comments and count the posts who are positive and negative.
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On January 20 2017 17:37 LHK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 17:34 starslayer wrote:
i say nerf all air units and than work from there. I would really like to see something done about mobility and ignoring terrain, honestly. Love my ground positional play. doesn't do much good to cry about how fast medivacs are as it won't ever change but it's something thats bothered me since hots came out.
I think that sc2 went spiral down just after introducing medivack boost. This one decision snowballed into many, many other bad bandaid decisions that ultimately broke the game. After medi boost, they buffed Mutalisks, and because of mutalisks they introduced widomines and so on and on. This one change provoked all this bad design problems changing real strategy game to "kill workers instant and win" game.
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On January 20 2017 19:34 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 17:37 LHK wrote:On January 20 2017 17:34 starslayer wrote:
i say nerf all air units and than work from there. I would really like to see something done about mobility and ignoring terrain, honestly. Love my ground positional play. doesn't do much good to cry about how fast medivacs are as it won't ever change but it's something thats bothered me since hots came out. I think that sc2 went spiral down just after introducing medivack boost. This one decision snowballed into many, many other bad bandaid decisions that ultimately broke the game. After medi boost, they buffed Mutalisks, and because of mutalisks they introduced widomines and so on and on. This one change provoked all this bad design problems changing real strategy game to "kill workers instant and win" game.
I have to agree. I find myself playing a ton of Wings of Liberty lately just to go back to a time before all of that was introduced and it's actually really fun. The WOL ladder isnt exactly a high-skill place to be and WOL has its problems but all of that side i've been really enjoying simply trying to get reads on my opponent and responding appropriately. That, to me, is fun. That's starcraft 2. Not "oh, i didn't see this drop coming and now i lose a bunch of workers and am basically out of the game".
I know it's a fair bit of nostalgia but I'm not trying to go pro and I want to have fun, and WOL is still heaps of fun to me. I never have to wait long for queues either.
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Now for something completely different, how about this:
Remove a unit from each race and change/ re-balance the game where needed.
Protoss: MSC. Have photon overcharge control relocated to the nexus. This will remove silly offensive pylon strats.
Terran: The liberator. This unit is badly designed. It causes problematic buffs elsewhere (queen) and overlaps with other units.
Zerg: The swarmhost (duh).
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On January 20 2017 20:03 Penev wrote:
Now for something completely different, how about this:
Remove a unit from each race and change/ re-balance the game where needed.
Protoss: MSC. Have photon overcharge control relocated to the nexus. This will remove silly offensive pylon strats.
Terran: The liberator. This unit is badly designed. It causes problematic buffs elsewhere (queen) and overlaps with other units.
Zerg: The swarmhost (duh).
The game would be infinitely better like this, but it ain't happening, they don't actually want the game to be good.
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On January 20 2017 20:07 ihatevideogames wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 20:03 Penev wrote:
Now for something completely different, how about this:
Remove a unit from each race and change/ re-balance the game where needed.
Protoss: MSC. Have photon overcharge control relocated to the nexus. This will remove silly offensive pylon strats.
Terran: The liberator. This unit is badly designed. It causes problematic buffs elsewhere (queen) and overlaps with other units.
Zerg: The swarmhost (duh). The game would be infinitely better like this, but it ain't happening, they don't actually want the game to be good.
pretty sure they said in the past they don't care about making the game fun or "good" but want it to be the most challenging game it can be, which is really a silly way to go.
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All blizzard games uninstalled. Only way to show them that iam serious, i dont found them any good at making games anymore.
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On January 20 2017 19:12 Drfilip wrote:
Why not add a poll to every feedback update? All things talked about should have alternatives similar to "don't change this", " change this" and "I have no strong opinion on the matter".
Hydra buff: don't change it by adding 10 hp, change it by adding 10 hp, meh
Widow mine shield damage: don't change it by lowering damage vs shield, change it by lowering damage vs shields, meh
Etc.
This way it will be way clearer what the team liquid community think instead of having to read through the comments and count the posts who are positive and negative.
I truly hope they don't do this. These threads are populated by the worst part of the SC2 community, people that are hear *only* con complain and that would not be happy with anything Blizzard could do.
The level of whining is equally distributed among the three races, so almost every buff to one race is fiercely opposed by the other two races (with more or less silly arguments) - same happens for every nerf.
For me these threads are nice to give us an update on what they are doing, and keep people that read TL posted on the work that is going into SC2, but I hope they don't collect feedback from here.
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Flat out nerfing mines or tanks has pretty catastrophic consequences for the different matchups. The main concerns are mostly that those units blocks spamming certain types of units which could be extremely oppressive.
The buffed tanks are really nessecary against ravagers. I think the current version of the tank is slightly easier to use but weaker overall against them and any nerf to the tank shohuld put tankvacs or ravager nerfs on the table to avoid making this easily accesssible and spammable unit too difficult to deal with.
Mines are the #1 counter to everyones favorite thing, adept spam. Please don´t do this.
Taking a look at the liberator is an interesting point but because of blizzards design policy we are kinda stuck with them. Lotv is a game of hard counters, you either have them or you don´t. Ultras, templars, swarmhost, broods, carriers collosus can also be added to the list of units that will destroy you unless you have the proper counters. If you were going to change the libs I don´t think changing it´s numbers is the way to go because it´s either "too good" or completely useless. Perhaps follow the same idea as with the ultras and change the timings. The protoss issue is mainly having to play builds that can hold the early tank lib pushes but still set up a midgame that allows you to get out tempest before too many ranged libs are on the field. Something like increasing liberator build time or putting them on techlabs might slow down the timing enough that protoss can transition.
But with that said the libs function as the main damage output of lategame terran armies because bio vs robo units and gateway units under guardian shield with storm backup is hillariously bad. Nerfing liberators should probably induce a look at buffing other parts of the terran army to give it more actual damage in battles.
On a small sidenote the patch hasnt been out for very long and my personal experiences on ladder is that protoss is in the middle of a huge experimentation phase in PvT because a lot of the builds that are being attempted are just flat out horrible.
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If they want to nerf the tank, just go back to tankivac please... good old days where TvT wasn't doomdrop fest and where you could actually move around the map
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The buffed tanks are really nessecary against ravagers. I think the current version of the tank is slightly easier to use but weaker overall against them and any nerf to the tank shohuld put tankvacs or ravager nerfs on the table to avoid making this easily accesssible and spammable unit too difficult to deal with.
in what way are tanks any better against ravagers than they used to be..? They still 4 shot a ravager regardless of if it were pre-patch or post patch.
35 damage siege tanks take 4 hits to kill a ravager. 40 damage siege tanks take 4 hits to kill a ravager due to the 1 armor that they have innately.
Ravagers aren't armored so they don't take any bonus damage, and if i recall correctly splash damage between patches isn't big enough to offset anything in terms of ravagers killed vs surviving.
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On January 20 2017 21:31 LHK wrote:Show nested quote +
The buffed tanks are really nessecary against ravagers. I think the current version of the tank is slightly easier to use but weaker overall against them and any nerf to the tank shohuld put tankvacs or ravager nerfs on the table to avoid making this easily accesssible and spammable unit too difficult to deal with.
in what way are tanks any better against ravagers than they used to be..? They still 4 shot a ravager regardless of if it were pre-patch or post patch. 35 damage siege tanks take 4 hits to kill a ravager. 40 damage siege tanks take 4 hits to kill a ravager due to the 1 armor that they have innately. Ravagers aren't armored so they don't take any bonus damage, and if i recall correctly splash damage between patches isn't big enough to offset anything in terms of ravagers killed vs surviving.
Uhm....
I think the current version of the tank is slightly easier to use but weaker overall against them
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Please, wait a bit before nerfing liberators and chaging tvp
Don't you remember the roc period where every Terran went for 1 base 1-1-1 cloacked banshees marines and tanks and totally destroyed protoss for some weeks or months. Though protoss found a way to deal with it (without any buff) and made this strategy pretty useless. I'm sure top Protoss will find a way to coop with Liberators and Innovation push.
By the way, nerf carrier, it is way too abusive in lower leagues and it will drive away promising players. Because towers + mass air strategy is not what sc2 needs and what people want for sc2. If we wanted to sit back behind towers regardless of what the opponent does, we would just play League of Legend.
Much love,
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On January 20 2017 21:38 SSMMA wrote:
Don't you remember the roc period where every Terran went for 1 base 1-1-1 cloacked banshees marines and tanks and totally destroyed protoss for some weeks or months. Though protoss found a way to deal with it (without any buff) and made this strategy pretty useless.
I am not sure, but didn't the immortal receive a range buff for this very issue? I might be wrong.
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On January 20 2017 04:34 bObA wrote:
Protoss has been being OP vs terran for months, terran should adapt with everything and for only 2 or 3 weeks it seems there is a bit too op for terran and immediately we are talking about nerfing Terran...
When Protoss was imba in multiple ways, terran should find strategies and adapt to survive.
I remember the time when Innovation TY and Maru got rekt by Zest stats and $o$.
And as a terran player, we lost tankivas for a damage buff and now what ? we won't have tankivas anymore and the buff will be cancelled ?
PvT dropped under 40% wirate. How many Protoss do you encounter on ladder? Me about 1 in 10 games.
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Who is that "majority of you" who dont want give some love to Hydras? Everything I see is asking for buff.
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remove lib range and it will be better for everyone, tvt, tvp and tvz. But ffs dont tone down the tank or widow mines. The tank is finally decent and mines are more less the only splash unit.
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On January 20 2017 19:34 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 17:37 LHK wrote:On January 20 2017 17:34 starslayer wrote:
i say nerf all air units and than work from there. I would really like to see something done about mobility and ignoring terrain, honestly. Love my ground positional play. doesn't do much good to cry about how fast medivacs are as it won't ever change but it's something thats bothered me since hots came out. I think that sc2 went spiral down just after introducing medivack boost. This one decision snowballed into many, many other bad bandaid decisions that ultimately broke the game. After medi boost, they buffed Mutalisks, and because of mutalisks they introduced widomines and so on and on. This one change provoked all this bad design problems changing real strategy game to "kill workers instant and win" game.
Totally agrees with this.
Things snowball when they start boosting the "speed" of units.
Being faster means players can forgo good positioning & escape bad fights due to bad positioning with little to no risks.
There's nothing your opponent can do to counter that when you have 1000x more move speed.
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first of all, i know my post here arent always formulated in a nice manner and im sorry of that. Still I want to bring my thoughts on this topic in here, since there already seem to be a lot of discussions regarding the balance changes.
To clarify things, i started playing SC2 when HotS launched and already back then, people said WoL or the old unit designs in general were more enjoyable to play. You see, its a common thing to claim "old is better". Although one can blame this on harrasment units beeing way stronger nowadays or the new worker count in LotV beeing higher than before (which in my opinion is the best thing that happened to this game in a long time, since you dont have to build up your worker count 2 minutes first, before making any adjustments to your build), those are still personal opinions. I dont think the game is ruined in any way yet but the fact that there dont seem to be effective changes incoming is a reason to be worried indeed.
I have spent a lot of time playing and studying this game. Its a masterpiece and despite may beeing a bit toxic ingames, I still care a lot about it and it beeing enjoyable. Therefore i understand why people are attacking the balance team. It really feels like they dont play the game at all. Or even watch tournament games. Their work (in terms of changing the game up) is nothing to be proud of in the slightest. I know that it requires a lot of technical skill to patch certain things and not make them buggy, but when I watch TL-threads or other forums about SC2 it SHOCKS me, that causal ladder players come up with TEN TIMES BETTER CHANGES than the balance team itself.
For example, i read something about a change to the Liberators attack in here, to make them 3 shot stalkers without an attack upgrade, but 2 shot them with the upgrade. a simple change, that doesnt give the terran the option to kill the toss with a lucky lib-rallying in the early-mid-game straight away, while also not killing its purpose in the late game entirely. As far as i have watched throught the units-guide, this shouldnt affect any other matchup or at least not give terran an/a advantage/disadvantage.
Compared to the changes blizzard implements (or doesnt), its reasonable that one gets upset with the team. just honest words.
And last but not least, I TOTALLY agree with the community claiming blizzard just makes us stay with their stupid PR shit. The "redesign" was not more than the mineral and the worker change. Sure, chrono doesnt have to be used every 25 energy and larva injects are queueable, but still.
-We didnt get the hydra as a key zerg unit, tanks get nerfed back, old collossus are pretty much back as they were (just that they deal less damage, but faster)
It feels like playing HotS again, having LotV just bought to spend money and beeing able to keep up playing the game (nobody really wants to get good at old expansions, right?^^) As dedicated player it makes me simply angry, to see blazzurd not giving a shit about their own game or the community. just PR, PR everywhere
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also i dont want to say, we have to work every community suggestion into the game, i just say that they are better than blizzards suggestions. (since they dont play the game)
also sorry for bad engrish
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We’ve been seeing more discussion regarding PvT. Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixed.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OsaR7XC.png)
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On January 20 2017 23:14 Tosster wrote:Show nested quote +
We’ve been seeing more discussion regarding PvT. Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixed.
when it will be at least few hundreds games in tvp then we can talk.
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On January 20 2017 23:28 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 23:14 Tosster wrote:
We’ve been seeing more discussion regarding PvT. Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixed.
when it will be at least few hundreds games in tvp then we can talk.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Y4NONSy.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/04gN2Ts.png)
What now?
Will I hear "People don't like playing protoss"?
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On January 20 2017 21:58 ioncreature wrote:
Who is that "majority of you" who dont want give some love to Hydras? Everything I see is asking for buff.
The people on the b.net forums - the forums that they posted that information on.
Though I do think it's worth noting that I feel those forums are heavily T - centric, and would have a disproportionate number of people wanting to continue to buff T for some reason.
On January 20 2017 23:31 Tosster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 23:28 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:On January 20 2017 23:14 Tosster wrote:
We’ve been seeing more discussion regarding PvT. Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixed.
when it will be at least few hundreds games in tvp then we can talk. What now? Will I hear "People don't like playing protoss"?
Well, technically, "People don't like playing protoss" wouldn't be wrong...they just don't like playing it because it gets stomped into the ground most of the time. 
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On January 20 2017 23:31 Tosster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 23:28 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:On January 20 2017 23:14 Tosster wrote:
We’ve been seeing more discussion regarding PvT. Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixed.
when it will be at least few hundreds games in tvp then we can talk. What now? Will I hear "People don't like playing protoss"?
it's just a matter of time, i've heard Stats feels not terrible in pvt, one man protoss as well as Dark for zergs.
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for crying out loud are those updates back to nothing but DK patting himself on the back? Only adressing the most urgent balance issue while completely ignoring the rest of the concerns the game faces?
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On January 21 2017 00:09 JackONeill wrote:
for crying out loud are those updates back to nothing but DK patting himself on the back? Only adressing the most urgent balance issue while completely ignoring the rest of the concerns the game faces?
Yeah it's really not worth the time it takes to write that down tbh. As i said in the last thread, i would rather see less updates but more detailed ones. I wanna see reasoning, ideas, goals so the community actually understands what is going on. I get that most people aren't interested in actual "meat" but the sc2 community has a few very dedicated people who would be happy to get more insight.
That's especially true because david now accused the community two times of only complaining and having no solutions. Well it's hard to make constructive posts when the updates lack any relevant information
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Oh, and one thing i still want to say. It seems to me like the patches often hit so late, that people most of the time already figured out how to counter a certain thing or play around it. And when the solution is finally here, it gets changed again. The best example for that was the cylone hellion style in TvZ i think. INNovatioN somehow made it work, then it got patched.
dont want to say it was perfectly refined already, but it was going towards a direction, causual players could use it as well.
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On January 20 2017 23:51 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 23:31 Tosster wrote:On January 20 2017 23:28 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:On January 20 2017 23:14 Tosster wrote:
We’ve been seeing more discussion regarding PvT. Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixed.
when it will be at least few hundreds games in tvp then we can talk. What now? Will I hear "People don't like playing protoss"? it's just a matter of time, i've heard Stats feels not terrible in pvt, one man protoss as well as Dark for zergs.
I take it you didn't watch Stats vs Innovation? Last time I checked, Stats had under 50% win rate on ladder, versus Terran. You making things up man?
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On January 21 2017 00:34 Dungeontay wrote:
Oh, and one thing i still want to say. It seems to me like the patches often hit so late, that people most of the time already figured out how to counter a certain thing or play around it. And when the solution is finally here, it gets changed again. The best example for that was the cylone hellion style in TvZ i think. INNovatioN somehow made it work, then it got patched.
dont want to say it was perfectly refined already, but it was going towards a direction, causual players could use it as well.
Perhaps that's the reason why you see such hesitation in actually putting out patches & updates?
They're trying to establish what actually is an issue, vs. what people just don't enjoy playing against right now.
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On January 21 2017 00:46 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 23:51 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:On January 20 2017 23:31 Tosster wrote:On January 20 2017 23:28 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:On January 20 2017 23:14 Tosster wrote:
We’ve been seeing more discussion regarding PvT. Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixed.
when it will be at least few hundreds games in tvp then we can talk. What now? Will I hear "People don't like playing protoss"? it's just a matter of time, i've heard Stats feels not terrible in pvt, one man protoss as well as Dark for zergs. I take it you didn't watch Stats vs Innovation? Last time I checked, Stats had under 50% win rate on ladder, versus Terran. You making things up man?
he beat maru very confidently previously, but innovation is a monster and for some reason stats played very bad vs him compare to vs maru, +1 attack for 4 phoenixes in 1st game, then couple of dumb allins, what was that lol. oh yes I watched that, every replay very attentively.
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We heard your feedback, and it sounds like majority of you would like to shelf the Hydralisk buff for now. We’ll revisit this discussion if concerns about the unit come up again.
...really? After all is said and done, this was the conclusion..?
Yes, shelf the wimpy hydra buff and go for something more extreme. Redesign Zerg AA across the board starting with a tier 1 hydra ffs. Also, fuck locusts give us scourge on the SH, just don't make them free. Opens up room to change the viper, queen, infestor and possibly corruptor (I seem to recall them wanting to make this unit "interesting", still waiting...) as well.
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On January 21 2017 01:17 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +We heard your feedback, and it sounds like majority of you would like to shelf the Hydralisk buff for now. We’ll revisit this discussion if concerns about the unit come up again.
...really? After all is said and done, this was the conclusion..? Yes, shelf the wimpy hydra buff and go for something more extreme. Redesign Zerg AA across the board starting with a tier 1 hydra ffs. Also, fuck locusts give us scourge on the SH, just don't make them free. Opens up room to change the viper, queen, infestor and possibly corruptor (I seem to recall them wanting to make this unit "interesting", still waiting...) as well.
Blizzard isn't willing to invest that much effort into the multiplayer part of the game. Well the competitive part, coop gets more love i think.
I said this half a year ago already, simply don't expect anything anymore (an advise i don't follow myself though ).
It's a bit disappointing considering that blizzard promised more, but that's how it is. Sc2 won't ever try to actually be "the best game it can be", there either isn't enough incentive for blizzard to test a lot of different things on the ptr, or the current team working on it isn't all that great. Probably a mix of both. I mean they should have done more with the expansions tbh, a lot of wasted time and potential there
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there either isn't enough incentive for blizzard to test a lot of different things on the ptr, or the current team working on it isn't all that great. Probably a mix of both. I mean they should have done more with the expansions tbh, a lot of wasted time and potential there
I mean, pretty much..
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My suggestions for making the game both funnier to play and watch, as well as more balanced.
I have been watching SC2 continously, daily, throughout its history of WoL, HotS and LotV. So even if I do not play it even though I have tried I like to think I have a good grasp on the game.
Something I have seen all through the development of SC2 is that blizzard wants to avoid using too much units from Brood War, instead introducing similar units, maybe even to different races. Often this has not been successful and the original unit would have worked well.
Terran:
1) Liberator is problematic mostly in TvP, low risk, high reward for harass, and in mass sieging up for me breaks balance as well as immersion due to beeing too powerful compared to other units. My ideas would be to remove liberator range since it is not necessary in any way, in addition I would like for the liberator to require tech lab, so it can not be reactored. How would this work in TvZ? Not sure if, but liberators are hardly the only counter to Ultralisks.
2) Slightly improve terran AA to lessen the necessity to rely on marines for this, when liberator are weak, and nerfed as above. Most popular would be to improve Cyclone AA, and/or slightly buff Thor AA again.
3) Would not mind seeing Hellbats buffed slightly, could be a core unit vs light, but beware of early Hellbat timings.
4) Mass Raven is not great watching, not sure how to nerf it, but honestly never liked autoturret, it has no real niche in the game, only for worker harrasment and pathing abuse, just give it defensive matrix instead.
Terran should still be strong without overpowered liberator.
Zerg
1) I think Zerg are in quite a good position, would be fun to see hydras and lurkers more, but buff in this tech path, could make hydras too strong vs Protoss. Hydra buff is more because I want to see this unit used more, rather than it is needed balancewise.
2) Blinding cloud, is a bit too much all or nothing in my opinion, with a nerfed liberator, and maybe slightly buffed hydra, blinding cloud should be nerfed, what about changing it into Dark Swarm!?
3) Swarm hosts, are still not fun, I suggest changing locusts into Scourge, maybe with a small mineralcost for each spawn! Could make for good mech games, Zerg has problems with maxed air armies, in my opinion they can handle ground well. In general, swarm hosts are very fast, making they difficult to catch, maybe reduce their movespeed.
Changes dynamic where units can do the job rather than all or nothing Viper being necessary
Protoss
1) Never liked the mothership core, overcharge is difficult to remove balancewise, my favorite would be to have chrono cost energy again, and beeing more powerful, but overcharge on nexus also costing nexus energy. No mothershipcore needed, has been my suggestion since its introduction....This is not absolutely necessary, cause it wont happen..
2) Carriers seem troublesome, maybe not for pros, but for everybody else... give interceptors a bit higher cost, nobody likes slow games with "free" units.
3) I would like to see the Zealot more, but we have the problem with protoss where early timings would be troublesome with buffed gateway units. Like other have suggested, give a cheap speedupgrade, but with some researchtime, to cyberneticcore and charge (at a lower cost) at twilight council. There are so many counters to Zealots in the game, so they could use a buff like this.
4) Adept, never understood the massive nerf to sight range, why not change it into something reasonable, say 5. And the increase the cooldown for shade. The problem has always been the shading back and forth into zerg mineral lines, where roaches cant keep up.
5) Protoss could use some buff to area attack. Disruptor is in my opinion not fun to watch every game, so please leave as is. Colussus is okey now, still usable, but not dominant. Why not slightly buff storm? High templar are expensive and slow and vulnerable, a buff here, combined with buffed hydra and strong counters in mine, liberator and tank gives the possibility down this path.
A slight buff to Zealots, and storm combined with a nerf to liberator, maybe slight buff to hellbat should be all that is necessary to balance TvP
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On January 20 2017 19:57 LHK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 19:34 hiroshOne wrote:On January 20 2017 17:37 LHK wrote:On January 20 2017 17:34 starslayer wrote:
i say nerf all air units and than work from there. I would really like to see something done about mobility and ignoring terrain, honestly. Love my ground positional play. doesn't do much good to cry about how fast medivacs are as it won't ever change but it's something thats bothered me since hots came out. I think that sc2 went spiral down just after introducing medivack boost. This one decision snowballed into many, many other bad bandaid decisions that ultimately broke the game. After medi boost, they buffed Mutalisks, and because of mutalisks they introduced widomines and so on and on. This one change provoked all this bad design problems changing real strategy game to "kill workers instant and win" game. I have to agree. I find myself playing a ton of Wings of Liberty lately just to go back to a time before all of that was introduced and it's actually really fun. The WOL ladder isnt exactly a high-skill place to be and WOL has its problems but all of that side i've been really enjoying simply trying to get reads on my opponent and responding appropriately. That, to me, is fun. That's starcraft 2. Not "oh, i didn't see this drop coming and now i lose a bunch of workers and am basically out of the game". I know it's a fair bit of nostalgia but I'm not trying to go pro and I want to have fun, and WOL is still heaps of fun to me. I never have to wait long for queues either.
Actually that is a nice idea. I looked over the differences and WoL does not seem half bad (except slow hydra)
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On January 21 2017 02:07 _fool wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 19:57 LHK wrote:On January 20 2017 19:34 hiroshOne wrote:On January 20 2017 17:37 LHK wrote:On January 20 2017 17:34 starslayer wrote:
i say nerf all air units and than work from there. I would really like to see something done about mobility and ignoring terrain, honestly. Love my ground positional play. doesn't do much good to cry about how fast medivacs are as it won't ever change but it's something thats bothered me since hots came out. I think that sc2 went spiral down just after introducing medivack boost. This one decision snowballed into many, many other bad bandaid decisions that ultimately broke the game. After medi boost, they buffed Mutalisks, and because of mutalisks they introduced widomines and so on and on. This one change provoked all this bad design problems changing real strategy game to "kill workers instant and win" game. I have to agree. I find myself playing a ton of Wings of Liberty lately just to go back to a time before all of that was introduced and it's actually really fun. The WOL ladder isnt exactly a high-skill place to be and WOL has its problems but all of that side i've been really enjoying simply trying to get reads on my opponent and responding appropriately. That, to me, is fun. That's starcraft 2. Not "oh, i didn't see this drop coming and now i lose a bunch of workers and am basically out of the game". I know it's a fair bit of nostalgia but I'm not trying to go pro and I want to have fun, and WOL is still heaps of fun to me. I never have to wait long for queues either. Actually that is a nice idea. I looked over the differences and WoL does not seem half bad (except slow hydra)
WOL is a lot of fun still to this day, i recommend everyone play it if you aren't enjoying LOTV. It's a much different game and comes down more to game knowledge and scouting/poking for information and responding as opposed to the way LOTV plays out. I'll probably never stop playing WOL, and if you're a tryhard at the top of the ladder there's actually a few really decent players.
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I'd like to address two units that I think Blizzard should look under the microscope.
The first is swarm hosts. I am not sure if they need any changes, but I do believe they are quite powerful. Their power comes from the safe zone they can attack/harass the enemy. In maps with many blind spots, SH harass is an easy tactic to use, compared to ling runby (simcity can take care of most ling harass), mutas (super fragile to 2 WM hits and a few turrets; have to babysit them), OL drops (vikings), and even nydus worm (maintain vision of your base at all times.
However, ease of use is balanced by deadtime; weaker main army; and vulnerability. These are the main arguments that SH doesn't need changes.
Deadtime is 43 seconds from locust wave to locust wave. 43 seconds is a long time. A lot of SH can die in 43 seconds if you catch them. That's also a lot of dead weight units, making the core army weaker. Each locust must do damage, but the question is can terran prevent the SH dmg?
In another thread, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/518001-community-feedback-update-jan-6-jan-10-update?page=16, Snute answered my question about how many SH does a zerg need to create, what he called, 'snowball effect'. His answer was 15-20 when things get out of hand for terran. I don't like snowball effects, because many times it prevents a reasonable comeback for the opponent.
So I think Blizzard should question the relative ease a zerg can get 15-20 SH. I'd imagine 15 can keep any terran pinned at home if you split the SH into 3 groups of 5. 3 points of harassment is incredibly difficult for a mech terran to deal with. I would argue too difficult. But the zerg shouldn't have much trouble doing it, as long as they have a bllind spot to safely release and retreat.
Snute did mention some counterplay, such as fast banshees can delay a zerg's SH snowball. He didn't say you can prevent a zerg from getting the snowball, but if a terran is going for mech he doesn't have many options to slow down the zerg's 15-20 SH.
Now carriers need to be addressed. That's another unit that causes a snowball effect, but for different purposes. No one would try to use a slow moving airship to harass, but the SH and carriers are designed quite similarly. They are both units that create sub-units to attack for them. Locusts are free but on CD. Interceptors aren't free, but a carrier doesn't have deadtime (except for times when all interceptors are killed.)
Instead of being a harassment unit, the carriers are essentially a siege unit or home defense. Most times they are used in both positions, usually defense first to keep the snowball carriers growing, and siege once a sufficient number is needed to push out.
Previous versions of SC2 put the carriers as an unviable unit. Design wise, Protoss could never achieve the number of carriers necessary to get a snowball going before they died. And the cost of interceptors made them more prohibitive.
But now we're at a version of SC2 where protoss can get enough carriers, and interceptors are dirt cheap. This combination gave protoss a unit that can be built and is sustainable.
I think Blizzard should increase the cost of interceptors. This will put a clock on a protoss to use the carriers. At interceptors current price, 10 mineral, the carriers aren't a huge mineral sink. This gives protoss more time to siege an opponent without fear of going mineral broke. Interceptors at the previous cost, 25 mineral, made cost very prohibitive. A fleet of carriers can very quickly put a protoss on welfare.
There is wiggle room. I think a test of 15 and 20 mineral for interceptors should be tried.
Units that spawn other units are difficult to balance. They easily become a binary design, nigh unstoppable or completely unviable, and there isn't much wiggle room to create a balanced unit. Both SH and Carriers have been difficult for Blizzard to balance, but I think they designed inherent weakness in both units. Is the weakness enough to balance them? That must be answered.
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So where is that huge redesign patch? I am waiting since last year and Zerg play did not change at all...
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On January 20 2017 21:44 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 21:38 SSMMA wrote:
Don't you remember the roc period where every Terran went for 1 base 1-1-1 cloacked banshees marines and tanks and totally destroyed protoss for some weeks or months. Though protoss found a way to deal with it (without any buff) and made this strategy pretty useless. I am not sure, but didn't the immortal receive a range buff for this very issue? I might be wrong.
This is correct, Protoss did never really figure out how to beat it so they upped Immortal range to 6.
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On January 20 2017 08:59 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 08:51 FFW_Rude wrote:On January 20 2017 05:25 TentativePanda wrote:
They neverrrr help zerg. Doesn't matter that carriers have no counter (even in PvP!)? Doesn't matter that TvZ is still favored for terran?
Here are a few of my balance fixing options that I don't think I've heard very often (besides what I have to say about carriers):
Carrier: Make interceptors 5 more minerals (again) and/or remove release interceptor ability
Liberator: Fucking do something finally! This unit takes 3 clicks from a terran player to shutdown mineral lines, they dont even have to look at it. Just queue its position. It also is absolutely incredible at zoning. My suggestion is to make it a tad less beefy because it takes way too many queen/stalker/pheonix shots to kill them and/or slightly reduce the "freedom zone" size.
And here is my big one (something to consider): Terran have been benefitting from imba medivacs since they got the speed boost. I see zergs/terrans/protosses spot the medivac before it even gets to its destination and still dont have time to defend because the boost is basically blink for medivacs. I suggest removing this ability entirely. I would even be fine with giving the medivac a VERY slight natural speed boost as compensation. P.S I also think medivacs heal waaaay too fast, but I'll fight my battles one at a time haha. Wait.... The release intereceptor ability is back ? It's not back. The current Carrier is identical to the WoL/HotS Carrier other than Interceptor cost being reduced from 25 to 10 and Carrier health being reduced from 300 to 250. Reverting the Interceptor cost buff without adding another counteracting buff will make the Carrier worse than it has ever been, and it was pretty dang useless before.
And they have a leash range which they didn't have in WoL and hots,
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On January 20 2017 11:20 SirPinky wrote:
CAN A PATCH BE OUT LONGER THAN 5 WEEKS BEFORE THERE IS A NERF??? Why does this always happen with Terran and not other races. Terran's are asked to "deal" with things like BL/Infestor, 8 armor ultra, swarm hosts, mass adepts, blink stalker all-ins - FOR MONTHS (in some cases entire expansions). Then one patch comes out, with very little data, then it's "Yup, we need to nerf Terran."
Do you people realize WM's have not been changed for YEARS? Liberator has been nerfed TWICE into oblivion and no longer counter any anti-air? Tankivacs were removed, so the balance was offset by a stronger tank. We haven't even seen a new map pool since this patch went live!
Why is there not talk about the cost of SH being the cost of a Maurader? Or Carriers dominating late game with inteceptors essentially being free? Deal with it kids. You sound like whiney brats; in which some people posting sound like they have not even played the game in months.
This is a very accurate post.
We've seen throughout the history of the game the other races get the most absurd things like perma cloak infestors, and swarmhost locusts that now fly into your base and run at lightspeed.
But Terran has to "adapt" to these things and win with superior skill and the top koreans somehow manage it.
But Protoss/Zerg never adapt to anything whatsoever. 1 week after changes they are spoon fed ridiculous buffs, and another round of 1000's of players quit SC2.
I know that sounds bad...but it's what's happened throughout the majority of the game's lifespan. Sad people still don't realize it yet.
Another point for this thread...i honestly think we should hi-jack this thread from the devs and just make this discussion about Swarmhosts/Carriers since the developers don't want to have any reasonable discussion about balance anymore and they've made that very clear.
Let's start talking about swarmhost and carrier balance which is impacting the game 100000x more than tanks and mines ever have lmao. A lot of people that are rational in this thread have already brought up these absurd units.
They definitely need changes, swarmhosts in particular are too strong versus both Protoss and Terran mech, maybe even in ZvZ mid/late game they are a bit worrisome. The unit just doesn't belong in the game honestly because it produces free units that don't even have an energy cost. The unit also is priced too cheaply.
As for carriers, i've played and seen games on ladder and pro level where the Protoss builds 2-3 stargate carrier, and essentially collects an autowin versus Zerg because there's no longer any counter play to the unit. Previously you could opt to go for the interceptors instead of suiciding onto the carriers.
With the interceptor change, you have no option - you must suicide onto the carriers themselves. Which then becomes theoretically and practically impossible due to archon splash and psi storm with the carriers.
These two units need to be looked at by the developers ASAP, along with mech anti-air problems.
Let's get the discussion trending on actual balance issues, rather than community fabricated ones on how to nerf Terran over and over.
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On January 21 2017 02:25 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:I'd like to address two units that I think Blizzard should look under the microscope. The first is swarm hosts. I am not sure if they need any changes, but I do believe they are quite powerful. Their power comes from the safe zone they can attack/harass the enemy. In maps with many blind spots, SH harass is an easy tactic to use, compared to ling runby (simcity can take care of most ling harass), mutas (super fragile to 2 WM hits and a few turrets; have to babysit them), OL drops (vikings), and even nydus worm (maintain vision of your base at all times. However, ease of use is balanced by deadtime; weaker main army; and vulnerability. These are the main arguments that SH doesn't need changes. Deadtime is 43 seconds from locust wave to locust wave. 43 seconds is a long time. A lot of SH can die in 43 seconds if you catch them. That's also a lot of dead weight units, making the core army weaker. Each locust must do damage, but the question is can terran prevent the SH dmg? In another thread, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/518001-community-feedback-update-jan-6-jan-10-update?page=16, Snute answered my question about how many SH does a zerg need to create, what he called, 'snowball effect'. His answer was 15-20 when things get out of hand for terran. I don't like snowball effects, because many times it prevents a reasonable comeback for the opponent. So I think Blizzard should question the relative ease a zerg can get 15-20 SH. I'd imagine 15 can keep any terran pinned at home if you split the SH into 3 groups of 5. 3 points of harassment is incredibly difficult for a mech terran to deal with. I would argue too difficult. But the zerg shouldn't have much trouble doing it, as long as they have a bllind spot to safely release and retreat. Snute did mention some counterplay, such as fast banshees can delay a zerg's SH snowball. He didn't say you can prevent a zerg from getting the snowball, but if a terran is going for mech he doesn't have many options to slow down the zerg's 15-20 SH. Now carriers need to be addressed. That's another unit that causes a snowball effect, but for different purposes. No one would try to use a slow moving airship to harass, but the SH and carriers are designed quite similarly. They are both units that create sub-units to attack for them. Locusts are free but on CD. Interceptors aren't free, but a carrier doesn't have deadtime (except for times when all interceptors are killed.) Instead of being a harassment unit, the carriers are essentially a siege unit or home defense. Most times they are used in both positions, usually defense first to keep the snowball carriers growing, and siege once a sufficient number is needed to push out. Previous versions of SC2 put the carriers as an unviable unit. Design wise, Protoss could never achieve the number of carriers necessary to get a snowball going before they died. And the cost of interceptors made them more prohibitive. But now we're at a version of SC2 where protoss can get enough carriers, and interceptors are dirt cheap. This combination gave protoss a unit that can be built and is sustainable. I think Blizzard should increase the cost of interceptors. This will put a clock on a protoss to use the carriers. At interceptors current price, 10 mineral, the carriers aren't a huge mineral sink. This gives protoss more time to siege an opponent without fear of going mineral broke. Interceptors at the previous cost, 25 mineral, made cost very prohibitive. A fleet of carriers can very quickly put a protoss on welfare. There is wiggle room. I think a test of 15 and 20 mineral for interceptors should be tried. Units that spawn other units are difficult to balance. They easily become a binary design, nigh unstoppable or completely unviable, and there isn't much wiggle room to create a balanced unit. Both SH and Carriers have been difficult for Blizzard to balance, but I think they designed inherent weakness in both units. Is the weakness enough to balance them? That must be answered.
I feel like you bring up a lot of good points - things that do need to be addressed, and how difficult it is to balance them.
I feel like SH can be in a situation where they're perhaps made a little more fragile than they already are, or give them a slightly slower off-creep speed or something to help counteract people running around the corner of a map, launching a bunch of locusts, and then bee-lining it back to their base.
Carriers, likewise, could probably use an extremely minor tweak. I feel the main issues with TvP right now is that the P doesn't have enough options to be able to deal with the myriad of openings that a T can do, and as a result, turtle up to carriers as a last resort.
I for one am interested to see how the new maps play out, and would like to see less dead space back behind each base for things like liberators to fly out and siege up in, but we'll see.
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On January 21 2017 04:38 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 11:20 SirPinky wrote:
CAN A PATCH BE OUT LONGER THAN 5 WEEKS BEFORE THERE IS A NERF??? Why does this always happen with Terran and not other races. Terran's are asked to "deal" with things like BL/Infestor, 8 armor ultra, swarm hosts, mass adepts, blink stalker all-ins - FOR MONTHS (in some cases entire expansions). Then one patch comes out, with very little data, then it's "Yup, we need to nerf Terran."
Do you people realize WM's have not been changed for YEARS? Liberator has been nerfed TWICE into oblivion and no longer counter any anti-air? Tankivacs were removed, so the balance was offset by a stronger tank. We haven't even seen a new map pool since this patch went live!
Why is there not talk about the cost of SH being the cost of a Maurader? Or Carriers dominating late game with inteceptors essentially being free? Deal with it kids. You sound like whiney brats; in which some people posting sound like they have not even played the game in months. This is a very accurate post. We've seen throughout the history of the game the other races get the most absurd things like perma cloak infestors, and swarmhost locusts that now fly into your base and run at lightspeed. But Terran has to "adapt" to these things and win with superior skill and the top koreans somehow manage it. But Protoss/Zerg never adapt to anything whatsoever. 1 week after changes they are spoon fed ridiculous buffs, and another round of 1000's of players quit SC2. I know that sounds bad...but it's what's happened throughout the majority of the game's lifespan. Sad people still don't realize it yet. Another point for this thread...i honestly think we should hi-jack this thread from the devs and just make this discussion about Swarmhosts/Carriers since the developers don't want to have any reasonable discussion about balance anymore and they've made that very clear. Let's start talking about swarmhost and carrier balance which is impacting the game 100000x more than tanks and mines ever have lmao. A lot of people that are rational in this thread have already brought up these absurd units. They definitely need changes, swarmhosts in particular are too strong versus both Protoss and Terran mech, maybe even in ZvZ mid/late game they are a bit worrisome. The unit just doesn't belong in the game honestly because it produces free units that don't even have an energy cost. The unit also is priced too cheaply. As for carriers, i've played and seen games on ladder and pro level where the Protoss builds 2-3 stargate carrier, and essentially collects an autowin versus Zerg because there's no longer any counter play to the unit. Previously you could opt to go for the interceptors instead of suiciding onto the carriers. With the interceptor change, you have no option - you must suicide onto the carriers themselves. Which then becomes theoretically and practically impossible due to archon splash and psi storm with the carriers. These two units need to be looked at by the developers ASAP, along with mech anti-air problems. Let's get the discussion trending on actual balance issues, rather than community fabricated ones on how to nerf Terran over and over.
U're so fucking full of shit...Zerg doesn't adapt? Zerg race is designed to adapt you fool. We adapted to every freaking shit that Blizzard threw at us with hands of Terran. Medivak boost, widomines, hellbats, mech. But sometimes they manage to give Terran so OP shit that adapting is not possible. And You...You of all Terrans are talking aboit adapting???TThat's jist hilarious. When did u adapt to anything???
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Avilo I agree that Blizzard should start looking at SH and Carriers, but your hyperbole explanations are way too extreme. And no need to use your aggressive tone (hi-jack this thread, spoon fed ridiculous buffs, etc.)
We can just calmly start discussing those units on any developer update thread, without resorting too aggressive and accusing tone. Just because Blizzard addresses one unit, doesn't mean they turn their backs on other units. You are making assumptions that aren't there.
I don't think Carriers and SH have more impact than tanks or mines. I think they just affect the game state very differently. However, I don't think tanks or mines creates a snowball effect, but carriers and SH are almost designed to be a snowball unit. These types of units can be balanced, but it's a question of how easy can a zerg or protoss reach a snowball of considerable threat, and is the snowball stoppable.
In my previous post I said I don't like the snowball effect. That doesn't mean it can't be implemented, but it does mean the snowball of a single unit needs to have a weakness that is exploitable by the opponent.
These are areas we should focus on about the SH and carrier.
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Lets have a closer look at these solid games Mr. Kim. For example let us take top 5 players of each race and see how they performed against each other in tournaments since the patch in late November, should be fairly balanced since these should be players on similar skill levels. Taking players and results from Aligulac we would have
Terrans: Maru, Innovation, Byun, TY, uThermal
Protoss: Showtime, Stats, Sos, Neeb, herO.
Zerg: Nerchio, Dark, Solar, Byul, Snute.
What have we been looking at in TvP.... map score 43-24 (over 64% Terran win rate)
lets see TvZ that must be balanced well, doesn't it.... map score 61-42 (over 59% Terran win rate)
PvZ map score 19-16 (over 54% Protoss win rate) - now guess why they played so little games between each other lol.
The state of the game is solid and fantastic. Apply changes next year.
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On January 20 2017 05:01 avilo wrote:
I really just wanna write my post as a one liner and write: "the developers don't play their own game anymore."
But i guess i'll just elaborate as usual and write the same post i have for over 1+ yr now of problems that have not been addressed with the game and the latest problems / balance issues that aren't addressed:
-carriers too strong, interceptor cost needs revert
-3 rax reaper coinflip is still in the game for some reason
-invulnerable nydus worm still in the game
-new swarmhost is ridiculously broken versus both protoss and mech
-infestor burrow cast is perma cloak....that needs to be reverted
-baneling buff way over the top, unneeded
-BC teleport cooldown way too low
-tempest still an oppressive lategame unit vs all races
-warp prism pick-up range is still too much
Those are issues that need looking at. The priority being swarmhosts and carriers.
It's absurd to me that the update jay wilson I MEAN david kim just put out says nothing about addressing swarmhosts, and then in the same post wants to simultaneously nerf TWO MECH UNITS ROFL.
Mech was made near unplayable on patch 3.8 because of swarmhost/carrier. Now they wanna nerf tanks and mines for no reason? Disgusting.
your suggestions make sense overall, but im fairly certain that nerfing swarmhost would make mech OP. good players playing mech would be too powerfull (blinding cloud nerf was huge)
and baneling buff was +5 hp only; it made bio more balanced
maybe if zerg wasn't hopeless vs sky terran or liberator ghost ( as well as sky protoss by the way), then perhaps a swarmhost nerf would make the game better overall.
the question is...how do you make the interaction between sky armies fun to play? It's been cancer since WOL. It seems very difficult to make enjoyable.
carriers/3 rax reaper/ warp prism pickup range/ burrow infestors are all things that need a nerf to adress balance.
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On January 21 2017 04:38 avilo wrote:
But Protoss/Zerg never adapt to anything whatsoever. 1 week after changes they are spoon fed ridiculous buffs, and another round of 1000's of players quit SC2.
Seriously, coming from the guy who decide against all odd he wants to play mech ? You playing mech to adapt to the playstyle of the other ?
As zerg,i've never started the game thinking : "Well i'd like to do this, so i do this", i'm just forced to play what i must do, oh the T want's to play the boring mech style, i'm forced to play the anti-mech way while i wanted to play LBM...
Terran is the race with the initiative, it's just your playstyle where your turtle at home and let the other do what he wants.
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But if nerfing SH makes mech OP, then perhaps look at something else for zerg?
What about burrowed roaches, there must be some potential here, right? ON top of my head (A FUCKING EXAMPLE ONLY), it can reduce then ext shoot that do 50+ in damage. Like the old immortal.
And maybe redesign SH completely.
AN EXAMPLE AGAIN: When burrowed it needs to stay burrowed for a long time. Perhaps add some very powerful siege ability(like spawns banelings once every 5th second so you really need to go there with your units.
COuld add some interesting shit.. AGAIN JUST EXAMPLES.
My point is, dont just write one liners like there is no tomorrow, eihter you discuss or you dont respond. There are possiblities around here, huge possibilities.
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On January 20 2017 23:28 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 23:14 Tosster wrote:
We’ve been seeing more discussion regarding PvT. Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixed.
when it will be at least few hundreds games in tvp then we can talk.
What about removing Innovation TvP games from the sample ?
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Please, nerf overloard speed.
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TERRAN
Reaper: grenades no longer deal damage OR unit redesign
Medivac: healing nerf (increase energy cost or decrease heal speed) OR speed movement nerf (reduce boost acceleration or boost now requires energy )
Liberator: require tech lab
ZERG
SH: Increase cost OR unit redesign
Hydralisk: Hp upgrade
PROTOSS
-Carrier: Increase interceptor cost
-Void Ray: Increase prismatic alignment cooldown
-Colossus: Increase damage
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Let's be honest here, without swarm hosts zerg has almost no potential to harass a mech terran. Mech terran composition can defend with impunity if zerg doesn't have SH.
Let's assume SH is completely removed from the game. There is nearly zero potential for a zerg to harass a mech terran fortification. Give me one viable unit or tactic for a zerg to harass a mech terran.
Zerg needs SH to poke and harass a mech terran, because all other options are either incredibly difficult, or easily countered.
But SH shouldn't be a harass unit that is risk-free, which I believe it currently might be. If a mech terran catches a SH hit squad, the zerg should be punished. I think reducing the health of the SH would make them punishable. It should be reduced to the point two banshees with +1 attack can one shot the SH. If someone can give me that number please
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Wow... i don't want be toxic but obviously this feedback is so pathetic..
"The overall quality of the events around the world seem pretty solid" : Really ? we lost a lot of big competition, all day all night people stop play Starcraft 2 and go on other games but yeah !! its look great !
"we wanted to congratulate everyone that has contributed towards making the game the way it is!" But the game sucks guys, wake up, we lost a big part of the community why say Thank you ? what did you change ? you listen the community ? When ? How ? If we were making a great job, Starcraft 2 will be come back on Twitch, a lot of people will come back on the game, where are these guys ? I was a big caster in France, i dont come back on the game... still no Tutorial... how u can be happy ? its unbelievable.
What is this new commucation about : Now we listen the community ? you input some old map cause you need to slow the game, cause you input +6 haversters with LOTV for no valaible reason, all the pro player stop the game cause we can't read the build order and we can't counter like on WOL/HOTS... game lenght is 13 min now, late game is 9 min now... what is this game ?
It's 6 month now, you communicate on how about you listen the community and what change ? that just proof that you don't know what to do, so you think if you do what "most of the people think" we good.. but no... Do exactly what you girlfriend want all day, and you will lost here, life is more complicated than this.
Like i said on a previous youtube video : /https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5xgjsv71y8&t=1s the BIG problem of Starcraft 2 is not the balance, you can buff or not Hydralisk, people will not come back on the game, the big problem is on the speed, you make a wrong decision with the 12 harvester start, that's broke the game, cause you can't have a good Esport game if casual player can't play it. And now, only Pro player, David Kim, Caster, and people who spend her life on this game can play it, for other people it's just too fast, too boring, one game it's 2 liberator at 3 min mark, an other it's a drop with a tank on your B1, you have no time to scout, to read, you need some good mechanics all the game, it's just stupid Blizzard.
Starcraft 2 is a copy paste of Starcraft Broodwar on a lot of things, but you add this 12 harvester and you kill the game sens that's all, so you can spend 3 years to congrats the community, you just kill the game to gain 2 min on early game for no reason, i was a caster, i see a lot of game, was my job, and even this slow start was cool, you have time to speak about the map, about the player, was interesting to watch the timing of the gas, of the scout, now you take your gas always at the same time, you dont lose money if you scout too earlier, sorry David, but this game now, was not the great game we had with wol/hots. You had just to add unit to open the valaible composition possible, and you choose to add 6 harvesters first... how to kill a game for nothing, for 2 min.. congratz.
Sorry for my english, was german first language in school, and i don't speak german too
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On January 21 2017 05:54 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 04:38 avilo wrote:
But Protoss/Zerg never adapt to anything whatsoever. 1 week after changes they are spoon fed ridiculous buffs, and another round of 1000's of players quit SC2.
Seriously, coming from the guy who decide against all odd he wants to play mech ? You playing mech to adapt to the playstyle of the other ? As zerg,i've never started the game thinking : "Well i'd like to do this, so i do this", i'm just forced to play what i must do, oh the T want's to play the boring mech style, i'm forced to play the anti-mech way while i wanted to play LBM... Terran is the race with the initiative, it's just your playstyle where your turtle at home and let the other do what he wants.
That guy is full of shit.
What "adaptation" is he talking about when Terran masses MMMM each & every single game?
The only time terrans need to "adapt" is when ultralisk/storms/collosus are on the field. But with liberators to counter everything z&p can throw at terrans.
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TERRAN:
Liberator: 85(+5) => 80(+5); ( stalker => 3 shot; hydra(+1 armor =2shot).
Siege Tank: Health 175 =>160 and 32s=>42s; or 150/125 => 200/150.
PROTOSS:
Colossus: 12(+1)x2 => 12(+2)x2.
Tempest: supply( 6)=>(4).
Zerg: keep stable.
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On January 21 2017 04:49 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 04:38 avilo wrote:On January 20 2017 11:20 SirPinky wrote:
CAN A PATCH BE OUT LONGER THAN 5 WEEKS BEFORE THERE IS A NERF??? Why does this always happen with Terran and not other races. Terran's are asked to "deal" with things like BL/Infestor, 8 armor ultra, swarm hosts, mass adepts, blink stalker all-ins - FOR MONTHS (in some cases entire expansions). Then one patch comes out, with very little data, then it's "Yup, we need to nerf Terran."
Do you people realize WM's have not been changed for YEARS? Liberator has been nerfed TWICE into oblivion and no longer counter any anti-air? Tankivacs were removed, so the balance was offset by a stronger tank. We haven't even seen a new map pool since this patch went live!
Why is there not talk about the cost of SH being the cost of a Maurader? Or Carriers dominating late game with inteceptors essentially being free? Deal with it kids. You sound like whiney brats; in which some people posting sound like they have not even played the game in months. This is a very accurate post. We've seen throughout the history of the game the other races get the most absurd things like perma cloak infestors, and swarmhost locusts that now fly into your base and run at lightspeed. But Terran has to "adapt" to these things and win with superior skill and the top koreans somehow manage it. But Protoss/Zerg never adapt to anything whatsoever. 1 week after changes they are spoon fed ridiculous buffs, and another round of 1000's of players quit SC2. I know that sounds bad...but it's what's happened throughout the majority of the game's lifespan. Sad people still don't realize it yet. Another point for this thread...i honestly think we should hi-jack this thread from the devs and just make this discussion about Swarmhosts/Carriers since the developers don't want to have any reasonable discussion about balance anymore and they've made that very clear. Let's start talking about swarmhost and carrier balance which is impacting the game 100000x more than tanks and mines ever have lmao. A lot of people that are rational in this thread have already brought up these absurd units. They definitely need changes, swarmhosts in particular are too strong versus both Protoss and Terran mech, maybe even in ZvZ mid/late game they are a bit worrisome. The unit just doesn't belong in the game honestly because it produces free units that don't even have an energy cost. The unit also is priced too cheaply. As for carriers, i've played and seen games on ladder and pro level where the Protoss builds 2-3 stargate carrier, and essentially collects an autowin versus Zerg because there's no longer any counter play to the unit. Previously you could opt to go for the interceptors instead of suiciding onto the carriers. With the interceptor change, you have no option - you must suicide onto the carriers themselves. Which then becomes theoretically and practically impossible due to archon splash and psi storm with the carriers. These two units need to be looked at by the developers ASAP, along with mech anti-air problems. Let's get the discussion trending on actual balance issues, rather than community fabricated ones on how to nerf Terran over and over. U're so fucking full of shit...Zerg doesn't adapt? Zerg race is designed to adapt you fool. We adapted to every freaking shit that Blizzard threw at us with hands of Terran. Medivak boost, widomines, hellbats, mech. But sometimes they manage to give Terran so OP shit that adapting is not possible. And You...You of all Terrans are talking aboit adapting???TThat's jist hilarious. When did u adapt to anything???
How Zerg adapted to LOTV:
-zergling adrenal gland buff
-nydus worm buff / re-design to be uncounterable/untargettable
-ultralisk +armor buff that ruined the first year of LOTV
-corruptor buff with added ability for free
-broodlord buff at start of LOTV + 1range
-arbitrary hydralisk buffs
-viper buff with added ability for free (para bomb), blinding cloud buff at one point early on in LOTV arbitrarily
-roach buff in form of ravager with free ability added
-arbitrary and most random +queen range buff after nerfing the liberator many times beforehand
-spore/spine root time buffs
-most current swarmhost insane buffs
-most current infestor insane permacloak buff
-most recent arbitrary and insane baneling health buff
How is that adaptation? That's not even an argument from me or anyone it's just me listing that every single Zerg unit in the game except for the drone was arbitrarily buffed before LOTV even began.
Historically, over the last year the only OP Terran unit in the game was the liberator which received many buffs to the point that it cannot kill corruptors/trade with anything anymore. And now people are asking for even more liberator buffs not remembering that things like queens were made completely bullshit with +range specifically to deal with liberators. Will the queen buff be reverted if liberators are further nerfed?
As the other poster i quoted in this thread said, historically, Z/P players have never adapted to the game or superiority of korean Terrans. At one point in time Protosses were even complaining about the 1/1/1 build which had a really easy counter from Protoss with their own 1/1/1 immortals/phoenix etc. But you remember what happened right? Blizzard hand picked an arbitrary immortal buff lol to make it so Terran no longer had any all-ins VS toss while leaving every single Protoss all-in still available to Protoss xD
The anti-Terran bias from the dev team has existed for years, and the community now is buying into it and spreading that Terran needs to be nerfed because of some mysterious winrate that people keep quoting.
There was one point at time in HOTS when 99% of the community was complaining Zerg has no counter to mech and 100% of the SC2 Zergs at pro level and on ladder refused to build more than 6 vipers per game, let alone some games build ZERO vipers lol.
Then on the other end of the spectrum, mech has been nerfed mysteriously 50 times throughout SC2's history, over and over, never given any anti-air, and finally the one time they decide to give in and buff the siege tank the buff is so irrelevant because they simultaneously buffed so many anti-mech things in the game like the current absurd swarmhost lol.
So now Blizzard puts out an update saying they wanna nerf 3 more mech units? Give me a break. Their update is laughable.
User was warned for this post
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On January 21 2017 15:12 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 04:49 hiroshOne wrote:On January 21 2017 04:38 avilo wrote:On January 20 2017 11:20 SirPinky wrote:
CAN A PATCH BE OUT LONGER THAN 5 WEEKS BEFORE THERE IS A NERF??? Why does this always happen with Terran and not other races. Terran's are asked to "deal" with things like BL/Infestor, 8 armor ultra, swarm hosts, mass adepts, blink stalker all-ins - FOR MONTHS (in some cases entire expansions). Then one patch comes out, with very little data, then it's "Yup, we need to nerf Terran."
Do you people realize WM's have not been changed for YEARS? Liberator has been nerfed TWICE into oblivion and no longer counter any anti-air? Tankivacs were removed, so the balance was offset by a stronger tank. We haven't even seen a new map pool since this patch went live!
Why is there not talk about the cost of SH being the cost of a Maurader? Or Carriers dominating late game with inteceptors essentially being free? Deal with it kids. You sound like whiney brats; in which some people posting sound like they have not even played the game in months. This is a very accurate post. We've seen throughout the history of the game the other races get the most absurd things like perma cloak infestors, and swarmhost locusts that now fly into your base and run at lightspeed. But Terran has to "adapt" to these things and win with superior skill and the top koreans somehow manage it. But Protoss/Zerg never adapt to anything whatsoever. 1 week after changes they are spoon fed ridiculous buffs, and another round of 1000's of players quit SC2. I know that sounds bad...but it's what's happened throughout the majority of the game's lifespan. Sad people still don't realize it yet. Another point for this thread...i honestly think we should hi-jack this thread from the devs and just make this discussion about Swarmhosts/Carriers since the developers don't want to have any reasonable discussion about balance anymore and they've made that very clear. Let's start talking about swarmhost and carrier balance which is impacting the game 100000x more than tanks and mines ever have lmao. A lot of people that are rational in this thread have already brought up these absurd units. They definitely need changes, swarmhosts in particular are too strong versus both Protoss and Terran mech, maybe even in ZvZ mid/late game they are a bit worrisome. The unit just doesn't belong in the game honestly because it produces free units that don't even have an energy cost. The unit also is priced too cheaply. As for carriers, i've played and seen games on ladder and pro level where the Protoss builds 2-3 stargate carrier, and essentially collects an autowin versus Zerg because there's no longer any counter play to the unit. Previously you could opt to go for the interceptors instead of suiciding onto the carriers. With the interceptor change, you have no option - you must suicide onto the carriers themselves. Which then becomes theoretically and practically impossible due to archon splash and psi storm with the carriers. These two units need to be looked at by the developers ASAP, along with mech anti-air problems. Let's get the discussion trending on actual balance issues, rather than community fabricated ones on how to nerf Terran over and over. U're so fucking full of shit...Zerg doesn't adapt? Zerg race is designed to adapt you fool. We adapted to every freaking shit that Blizzard threw at us with hands of Terran. Medivak boost, widomines, hellbats, mech. But sometimes they manage to give Terran so OP shit that adapting is not possible. And You...You of all Terrans are talking aboit adapting???TThat's jist hilarious. When did u adapt to anything??? How Zerg adapted to LOTV: -zergling adrenal gland buff -nydus worm buff / re-design to be uncounterable/untargettable -ultralisk +armor buff that ruined the first year of LOTV -corruptor buff with added ability for free -broodlord buff at start of LOTV + 1range -arbitrary hydralisk buffs -viper buff with added ability for free (para bomb), blinding cloud buff at one point early on in LOTV arbitrarily -roach buff in form of ravager with free ability added -arbitrary and most random +queen range buff after nerfing the liberator many times beforehand -spore/spine root time buffs -most current swarmhost insane buffs -most current infestor insane permacloak buff -most recent arbitrary and insane baneling health buff How is that adaptation? That's not even an argument from me or anyone it's just me listing that every single Zerg unit in the game except for the drone was arbitrarily buffed before LOTV even began. Historically, over the last year the only OP Terran unit in the game was the liberator which received many buffs to the point that it cannot kill corruptors/trade with anything anymore. And now people are asking for even more liberator buffs not remembering that things like queens were made completely bullshit with +range specifically to deal with liberators. Will the queen buff be reverted if liberators are further nerfed? As the other poster i quoted in this thread said, historically, Z/P players have never adapted to the game or superiority of korean Terrans. At one point in time Protosses were even complaining about the 1/1/1 build which had a really easy counter from Protoss with their own 1/1/1 immortals/phoenix etc. But you remember what happened right? Blizzard hand picked an arbitrary immortal buff lol to make it so Terran no longer had any all-ins VS toss while leaving every single Protoss all-in still available to Protoss xD The anti-Terran bias from the dev team has existed for years, and the community now is buying into it and spreading that Terran needs to be nerfed because of some mysterious winrate that people keep quoting. There was one point at time in HOTS when 99% of the community was complaining Zerg has no counter to mech and 100% of the SC2 Zergs at pro level and on ladder refused to build more than 6 vipers per game, let alone some games build ZERO vipers lol. Then on the other end of the spectrum, mech has been nerfed mysteriously 50 times throughout SC2's history, over and over, never given any anti-air, and finally the one time they decide to give in and buff the siege tank the buff is so irrelevant because they simultaneously buffed so many anti-mech things in the game like the current absurd swarmhost lol. So now Blizzard puts out an update saying they wanna nerf 3 more mech units? Give me a break. Their update is laughable.
at least they said: "Our current position on this matchup is that we aren’t seeing a specific problem that needs to be fixed"
maybe there's a good chance that not all 3 will be nerfed.
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I would like to add a topic to this massive whine. The problem is that Blizz wanted to make sc2 game of agression and they did, but not equally for everyone. They wanted to make sc2 a game with high skill cap but not equally for everyone. We focus on pro gamers but the game's core are casualss - diamond and lower league players. Lets take an example to ilustrate what i'm about here:
For example Terran and his double medivak, 16 marines with stim drop- Byun style. As in GM and pro its relatively easy to defend whrn u know its coming, in lower leagues it pretty much often ends the game for Zerg. Its because Blizzard decided that attacking must be easier than defending agression especially in matchups against Terran. Its easy to rush to 16 marines, 2 medivacks and stim- drop it in mineral line, stim and a-move everythingg even for low league players. But defending it is not. U need to have right amount of lings, banes and Queens. U nust hit every transfuse, snipe medivacks with queens and choose carefuly where u engage those marines (minerals blocking attack paths and shit).
U kknowwhat i mean? There are more examples. I feel like its the fault of design. In perfect world attacking and defending should be equally difficult for both players. Now, this example i made- is giving huge advantage to Terran. I hope it was clear what i ment, as english is not my native.
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I really don't know how to respond to this anymore. They aren't up to the task. They have a game that is already heavily in decline but won't accept any evidence that they're doing a bad job.
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On January 21 2017 18:26 Probe1 wrote:
I really don't know how to respond to this anymore. They aren't up to the task. They have a game that is already heavily in decline but won't accept any evidence that they're doing a bad job.
Yeah, this is kind of the last straw for me, honestly. I've doubted blizzards competence for a long time but have tried to bite my tongue and just hope they do something right. This update just shows they have no idea what they're doing unfortunately. Hate to say it. not everything is fine, this game is in the worst state its ever been. I almost feel bad for the guys over at blizzard. They're just trying to do their job and I know its a really hard job to do. But that doesn't change that the game is really bad right now, and pretending it's not doesn't do anybody any good.
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On January 21 2017 15:12 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 04:49 hiroshOne wrote:On January 21 2017 04:38 avilo wrote:On January 20 2017 11:20 SirPinky wrote:
CAN A PATCH BE OUT LONGER THAN 5 WEEKS BEFORE THERE IS A NERF??? Why does this always happen with Terran and not other races. Terran's are asked to "deal" with things like BL/Infestor, 8 armor ultra, swarm hosts, mass adepts, blink stalker all-ins - FOR MONTHS (in some cases entire expansions). Then one patch comes out, with very little data, then it's "Yup, we need to nerf Terran."
Do you people realize WM's have not been changed for YEARS? Liberator has been nerfed TWICE into oblivion and no longer counter any anti-air? Tankivacs were removed, so the balance was offset by a stronger tank. We haven't even seen a new map pool since this patch went live!
Why is there not talk about the cost of SH being the cost of a Maurader? Or Carriers dominating late game with inteceptors essentially being free? Deal with it kids. You sound like whiney brats; in which some people posting sound like they have not even played the game in months. This is a very accurate post. We've seen throughout the history of the game the other races get the most absurd things like perma cloak infestors, and swarmhost locusts that now fly into your base and run at lightspeed. But Terran has to "adapt" to these things and win with superior skill and the top koreans somehow manage it. But Protoss/Zerg never adapt to anything whatsoever. 1 week after changes they are spoon fed ridiculous buffs, and another round of 1000's of players quit SC2. I know that sounds bad...but it's what's happened throughout the majority of the game's lifespan. Sad people still don't realize it yet. Another point for this thread...i honestly think we should hi-jack this thread from the devs and just make this discussion about Swarmhosts/Carriers since the developers don't want to have any reasonable discussion about balance anymore and they've made that very clear. Let's start talking about swarmhost and carrier balance which is impacting the game 100000x more than tanks and mines ever have lmao. A lot of people that are rational in this thread have already brought up these absurd units. They definitely need changes, swarmhosts in particular are too strong versus both Protoss and Terran mech, maybe even in ZvZ mid/late game they are a bit worrisome. The unit just doesn't belong in the game honestly because it produces free units that don't even have an energy cost. The unit also is priced too cheaply. As for carriers, i've played and seen games on ladder and pro level where the Protoss builds 2-3 stargate carrier, and essentially collects an autowin versus Zerg because there's no longer any counter play to the unit. Previously you could opt to go for the interceptors instead of suiciding onto the carriers. With the interceptor change, you have no option - you must suicide onto the carriers themselves. Which then becomes theoretically and practically impossible due to archon splash and psi storm with the carriers. These two units need to be looked at by the developers ASAP, along with mech anti-air problems. Let's get the discussion trending on actual balance issues, rather than community fabricated ones on how to nerf Terran over and over. U're so fucking full of shit...Zerg doesn't adapt? Zerg race is designed to adapt you fool. We adapted to every freaking shit that Blizzard threw at us with hands of Terran. Medivak boost, widomines, hellbats, mech. But sometimes they manage to give Terran so OP shit that adapting is not possible. And You...You of all Terrans are talking aboit adapting???TThat's jist hilarious. When did u adapt to anything??? How Zerg adapted to LOTV: -zergling adrenal gland buff -nydus worm buff / re-design to be uncounterable/untargettable -ultralisk +armor buff that ruined the first year of LOTV -corruptor buff with added ability for free -broodlord buff at start of LOTV + 1range -arbitrary hydralisk buffs -viper buff with added ability for free (para bomb), blinding cloud buff at one point early on in LOTV arbitrarily -roach buff in form of ravager with free ability added -arbitrary and most random +queen range buff after nerfing the liberator many times beforehand -spore/spine root time buffs -most current swarmhost insane buffs -most current infestor insane permacloak buff -most recent arbitrary and insane baneling health buff How is that adaptation? That's not even an argument from me or anyone it's just me listing that every single Zerg unit in the game except for the drone was arbitrarily buffed before LOTV even began. Historically, over the last year the only OP Terran unit in the game was the liberator which received many buffs to the point that it cannot kill corruptors/trade with anything anymore. And now people are asking for even more liberator buffs not remembering that things like queens were made completely bullshit with +range specifically to deal with liberators. Will the queen buff be reverted if liberators are further nerfed? As the other poster i quoted in this thread said, historically, Z/P players have never adapted to the game or superiority of korean Terrans. At one point in time Protosses were even complaining about the 1/1/1 build which had a really easy counter from Protoss with their own 1/1/1 immortals/phoenix etc. But you remember what happened right? Blizzard hand picked an arbitrary immortal buff lol to make it so Terran no longer had any all-ins VS toss while leaving every single Protoss all-in still available to Protoss xD The anti-Terran bias from the dev team has existed for years, and the community now is buying into it and spreading that Terran needs to be nerfed because of some mysterious winrate that people keep quoting. There was one point at time in HOTS when 99% of the community was complaining Zerg has no counter to mech and 100% of the SC2 Zergs at pro level and on ladder refused to build more than 6 vipers per game, let alone some games build ZERO vipers lol. Then on the other end of the spectrum, mech has been nerfed mysteriously 50 times throughout SC2's history, over and over, never given any anti-air, and finally the one time they decide to give in and buff the siege tank the buff is so irrelevant because they simultaneously buffed so many anti-mech things in the game like the current absurd swarmhost lol. So now Blizzard puts out an update saying they wanna nerf 3 more mech units? Give me a break. Their update is laughable. User was warned for this post
Please keep your raging act to your stream and stay away from balance, you're just an awful barely 5.5k mmr player on Na, and when you want to prove how op zerg is you play your 5k zerg matches, wonder why you're not 7k mmr with zerg.
You say carriers have no counter when they are completely useless vs Bcs, Protoss cant do shit vs
Yamato PDd late game.
I'll stop here because you don't really deserve any attention, hopefully you'll be banned on TL as well.
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TY went for mech in gsl against armani, who built swarm hostsand killed ty no problem. Granted armani was already winning but if pro terran start to go mech and pro zerg start to shut it down with shs, maybe the issue will finally be acknowledged.
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Very funny as both Zergs in this group didn't advance. Yeah, let's nerf Zerg more and buff mech more. That will definitely make things better. You know...there are many game where pro Terran goes mech and Pro Zerg is trying to shotdown and fails to do so. Your argument is invalid.
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On January 21 2017 21:38 JackONeill wrote:
TY went for mech in gsl against armani, who built swarm hostsand killed ty no problem. Granted armani was already winning but if pro terran start to go mech and pro zerg start to shut it down with shs, maybe the issue will finally be acknowledged.
I hope so. It is unnecessary having a single unit preventing an entire playstyle. All Blizzard has to do is to increase the price of Swarm Hosts so that mass Swarm Hosts comes at a later timing.
Mech can deal with Swarm Hosts in the late game but the problem is that Swarm Hosts comes in mass to early before Terran has enough hellbats with bluflame to deal with the locust.
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On January 21 2017 21:47 hiroshOne wrote:
Very funny as both Zergs in this group didn't advance. Yeah, let's nerf Zerg more and buff mech more. That will definitely make things better. You know...there are many game where pro Terran goes mech and Pro Zerg is trying to shotdown and fails to do so. Your argument is invalid.
I love people focusing on balance instead of how the game works.
If reapers dealt 50 damage per shot but that mutas had 500 hps, would TvZ it be zerg favored? Probably not since they'll die before the 4 min mark. With doesn't change the fact that the design would be extremely stupid.
Armani choked hard vs TY especially in game 3, and TY completely outplayed Solar, especially on whirlwind. And no one talked about a SH nerf, but a redesign for it to be usefull in other roles than shutting mech down. So please cut the waterworks.
And please, show us the games you're talking about. Show us any pro mech game where terran hasn't already won with his initial harass phase and where the zerg goes for swarm hosts. I'd be extremely interested.
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On January 21 2017 06:39 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:But SH shouldn't be a harass unit that is risk-free, which I believe it currently might be. If a mech terran catches a SH hit squad, the zerg should be punished. I think reducing the health of the SH would make them punishable. It should be reduced to the point two banshees with +1 attack can one shot the SH. If someone can give me that number please
You're right on principle, but 52 health is unreasonably low for a SH.
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On January 21 2017 21:38 JackONeill wrote:
TY went for mech in gsl against armani, who built swarm hostsand killed ty no problem. Granted armani was already winning but if pro terran start to go mech and pro zerg start to shut it down with shs, maybe the issue will finally be acknowledged.
You say it yourself: Armani was already ahead. You're saying that if a Z sees a T player going mech, and is in the lead, then they didn't be able to do anything about it?
I don't feel like that's a very good way at looking at matchups add trying to find balance in the game. I feel like that's like those people who get their spire scouted, then proceed to be sad that the T poster put up defenses in their main and just shut it down.
There is supposed to be an answer to mech, and right now, that is swarm hosts.
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SC2 is doomed.
It is kinda obvious that SC2 is lacking the clear vision of one brilliant mind who has envisioned how every little detail and interaction must look like and subordinate everything else to it. Fixing SC2 can no longer be a group effort based on democratic decisions, making it this way one time and the other way the other time to make everyone happy and to take each narrative into concern. The issues are too diverse and overwhelming. Decisions must be made instead of holding discussions. Reasonability must be created instead of balance. Sources must be attacked instead of surfaces. The only thing that can fix SC2 is the route of highest risks and highest casualties but highest potential reward. And it still would only work out if everything would be subordinated to that one vision and narrative of SC2 no matter what.
The latest chance of a 3/4 year development recap was not only missed but heavily failed. Buffs over nerfs once again proved to be as wrong as they were in 2010. Community feedback will continue to show up issues of tiny nature about high level balance but they wont bring the great effort of a rounded construct, that SC2 requires to be in order to become a satisfying gameplay experience. That can only come out of a single mind or very few minds that think alike.
What SC2 is, is the consequence of mixing up different kinds of good ideas and approaches instead of strictly following one basic vision and concept and dissmissing others. It is the offort of making everybody happy. Games should not take longer than X amount of time. Game should have constant action. Buffs over nerfs. One unit must be cooler than the other. You got exactly that, nothing else is SC2 now.
Add to that that inner racial balance is fucked up and needs to be redone from zero. Hydralisk tier 2 is quite odd with no other real anti air than that. Terran building one kind of unit mix that is best in main army, best in harrassment and best in base def at the same time. Protoss being as bad that it requires first force fields and colossi in every mix and then nexus/pylon cannon and MSC teleport to stay competitive at all.
It is really not my thing to blame few single persons as SC2 was a group effort. But at this point of time personnel consequences are inevitable. What does Dustin Browder that crashed the whole C&C series into ground have to do with starcraft? Starcraft is the level he has never reached with about 10+ C&C titles throughout the years and continues to do so with SC2. DB is probably the right guy to make games look cool and sell them but not to give them a solid substance for years to hold. DK, probably not even responsible for the mess that SC2 is himself, is still not the right guy to pull it out of that.
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On January 22 2017 04:22 LSN wrote:
SC2 is doomed.
Man, I'm starting to actually love these threads, it's kind like watching a comical show
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SC2 is doomed to remain in the uncomplete state it has been in since the beginning. It cannot be fixed with current philosophies and ways of doing things. It is doomed to continue with what it is doing wrong.
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Except for all the people who enjoy the game.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's doomed.
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avilo should try playing protoss and just turtle hardcore to carriers vs zerg..swarmhosts wont be a problem
if ur like him and u just wanna camp hardcore and spam defenses everywhere and not move out till ur army is unbeatable pvz seems like ur best bet atm
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On January 22 2017 04:22 LSN wrote:
SC2 is doomed.
It is kinda obvious that SC2 is lacking the clear vision of one brilliant mind who has envisioned how every little detail and interaction must look like and subordinate everything else to it. Fixing SC2 can no longer be a group effort based on democratic decisions, making it this way one time and the other way the other time to make everyone happy and to take each narrative into concern. The issues are too diverse and overwhelming. Decisions must be made instead of holding discussions. Reasonability must be created instead of balance. Sources must be attacked instead of surfaces. The only thing that can fix SC2 is the route of highest risks and highest casualties but highest potential reward. And it still would only work out if everything would be subordinated to that one vision and narrative of SC2 no matter what.
The latest chance of a 3/4 year development recap was not only missed but heavily failed. Buffs over nerfs once again proved to be as wrong as they were in 2010. Community feedback will continue to show up issues of tiny nature about high level balance but they wont bring the great effort of a rounded construct, that SC2 requires to be in order to become a satisfying gameplay experience. That can only come out of a single mind or very few minds that think alike.
What SC2 is, is the consequence of mixing up different kinds of good ideas and approaches instead of strictly following one basic vision and concept and dissmissing others. It is the offort of making everybody happy. Games should not take longer than X amount of time. Game should have constant action. Buffs over nerfs. One unit must be cooler than the other. You got exactly that, nothing else is SC2 now.
Add to that that inner racial balance is fucked up and needs to be redone from zero. Hydralisk tier 2 is quite odd with no other real anti air than that. Terran building one kind of unit mix that is best in main army, best in harrassment and best in base def at the same time. Protoss being as bad that it requires first force fields and colossi in every mix and then nexus/pylon cannon and MSC teleport to stay competitive at all.
It is really not my thing to blame few single persons as SC2 was a group effort. But at this point of time personnel consequences are inevitable. What does Dustin Browder that crashed the whole C&C series into ground have to do with starcraft? Starcraft is the level he has never reached with about 10+ C&C titles throughout the years and continues to do so with SC2. DB is probably the right guy to make games look cool and sell them but not to give them a solid substance for years to hold. DK, probably not even responsible for the mess that SC2 is himself, is still not the right guy to pull it out of that.
Please get your facts right instead of spreading misinformation. Dustin Browder was only Designer of exactly two C&C titles, C&C Red Alert 2 and Generals. And those two were one of the most popular and most liked from the C&C franchise.
If anyone "crashed C&C into ground" it was EA. Especially ruining it with the horrible C&C 4 part.
While I can´t talk about balance and won´t do that cause I haven´t played it in months, not because I don´t like it but because I just can´t (crap PC otherwise I would love to play it again trust me), I don´t understand their decisions. They buffed the Tank in order to make Mech more viable with the Tank and the Cyclone being the core. Now they want to nerf it again? No wonder people say things like " they don´t know/have no clue about their own game" . But to be fair, Blizz brought this on themselves. When Players/viewers started slowly turning their back on the game during the Broodlord/Infestor era, that´s when they should have pulled the emergency brake and do something. But they rather waited months for the next expansion, same they did with the Mass Raven/Swarmhost era and waited AGAIN. People thought they wouldn´t do anything and quit the game. Now they desperately try to extinguish the fires they laid themselves.
Feedback is good and healthy for a game but Im unsure if they should depend only on players opinions. Devs should always know what is good for their own game themselves. Maybe a little bit more transparency would help.
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Are you serious? They're just going to shelf the hydra buff? Welp...looks like I'm not going to be playing for a long, long time...sigh...
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On January 22 2017 05:21 InfCereal wrote:
Except for all the people who enjoy the game.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's doomed.
While typically, it's true, and forums really are filled with people complaining and making the communities look a lot more negative than they really are.
But in the case of the SC2 community... I think there's actually some validity to the complaints. It's not just complaints about the design and development, but an aura that's all about the game. So many of the pros that are funnest to watch are gone. General morale is very low. Growth has not only stalled but seems like loss is at a peak of SC2 history.
I'm pretty sure there's more people now wishing competitive SC2 would make big changes for a comeback and be a fun game to play again, than players who are still playing and enjoying the game.
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On January 22 2017 04:22 LSN wrote:
SC2 is doomed.
It is kinda obvious that SC2 is lacking the clear vision of one brilliant mind who has envisioned how every little detail and interaction must look like and subordinate everything else to it. Fixing SC2 can no longer be a group effort based on democratic decisions, making it this way one time and the other way the other time to make everyone happy and to take each narrative into concern. The issues are too diverse and overwhelming. Decisions must be made instead of holding discussions. Reasonability must be created instead of balance. Sources must be attacked instead of surfaces. The only thing that can fix SC2 is the route of highest risks and highest casualties but highest potential reward. And it still would only work out if everything would be subordinated to that one vision and narrative of SC2 no matter what.
The latest chance of a 3/4 year development recap was not only missed but heavily failed. Buffs over nerfs once again proved to be as wrong as they were in 2010. Community feedback will continue to show up issues of tiny nature about high level balance but they wont bring the great effort of a rounded construct, that SC2 requires to be in order to become a satisfying gameplay experience. That can only come out of a single mind or very few minds that think alike.
What SC2 is, is the consequence of mixing up different kinds of good ideas and approaches instead of strictly following one basic vision and concept and dissmissing others. It is the offort of making everybody happy. Games should not take longer than X amount of time. Game should have constant action. Buffs over nerfs. One unit must be cooler than the other. You got exactly that, nothing else is SC2 now.
Add to that that inner racial balance is fucked up and needs to be redone from zero. Hydralisk tier 2 is quite odd with no other real anti air than that. Terran building one kind of unit mix that is best in main army, best in harrassment and best in base def at the same time. Protoss being as bad that it requires first force fields and colossi in every mix and then nexus/pylon cannon and MSC teleport to stay competitive at all.
It is really not my thing to blame few single persons as SC2 was a group effort. But at this point of time personnel consequences are inevitable. What does Dustin Browder that crashed the whole C&C series into ground have to do with starcraft? Starcraft is the level he has never reached with about 10+ C&C titles throughout the years and continues to do so with SC2. DB is probably the right guy to make games look cool and sell them but not to give them a solid substance for years to hold. DK, probably not even responsible for the mess that SC2 is himself, is still not the right guy to pull it out of that.
Man i love your posts
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On January 22 2017 14:00 Qwyn wrote:
Are you serious? They're just going to shelf the hydra buff? Welp...looks like I'm not going to be playing for a long, long time...sigh...
What? You don't enjoy going ling bane in every matchup?
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On January 22 2017 01:21 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 21:38 JackONeill wrote:
TY went for mech in gsl against armani, who built swarm hostsand killed ty no problem. Granted armani was already winning but if pro terran start to go mech and pro zerg start to shut it down with shs, maybe the issue will finally be acknowledged. You say it yourself: Armani was already ahead. You're saying that if a Z sees a T player going mech, and is in the lead, then they didn't be able to do anything about it? I don't feel like that's a very good way at looking at matchups add trying to find balance in the game. I feel like that's like those people who get their spire scouted, then proceed to be sad that the T poster put up defenses in their main and just shut it down. There is supposed to be an answer to mech, and right now, that is swarm hosts.
There's a huge difference between "having an answer to" and "shutting down" something. It's ok that banshees shut down roach allins. It's not okay that a single unit shuts down an entire playstyle.
Just ask snute, right now mech gets shut down by SHs. I'm just saying i'm glad armani used SHs in this game, and maybe when it becomes clear from pro games that SHs completely invalidate mech in the state they are, blizz will finally acknowledge it.
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On January 22 2017 22:09 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 01:21 reneg wrote:On January 21 2017 21:38 JackONeill wrote:
TY went for mech in gsl against armani, who built swarm hostsand killed ty no problem. Granted armani was already winning but if pro terran start to go mech and pro zerg start to shut it down with shs, maybe the issue will finally be acknowledged. You say it yourself: Armani was already ahead. You're saying that if a Z sees a T player going mech, and is in the lead, then they didn't be able to do anything about it? I don't feel like that's a very good way at looking at matchups add trying to find balance in the game. I feel like that's like those people who get their spire scouted, then proceed to be sad that the T poster put up defenses in their main and just shut it down. There is supposed to be an answer to mech, and right now, that is swarm hosts. There's a huge difference between "having an answer to" and "shutting down" something. It's ok that banshees shut down roach allins. It's not okay that a single unit shuts down an entire playstyle. Just ask snute, right now mech gets shut down by SHs. I'm just saying i'm glad armani used SHs in this game, and maybe when it becomes clear from pro games that SHs completely invalidate mech in the state they are, blizz will finally acknowledge it.
Kind of like of banelings shut down the entire bio playstyle amirite
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No wonder they don't talk to anyone from the community... SC2 might dodged the toxicity bullet (which is being raised Avilo anyway), but it is the most negative community in the gaming industry.
There is nothing that Blizzard can do because it's double edge sword, u satisfy one ppl and 10 other started flaming and being vocal.
At this point I'm glad they keep the money and casual updates rolling. But I would not be suprised that one day someone retired from Blizzard will publicly agrees with me with fact that working with this community which is like 95% negative about anything Blizz came with was "pain in the a*s"
I started playing in late hots, but I still belive the main source of problem for SC2 is the diversed and negative community..
P.S: I'm glad that at least BW guys working together and are somehow united and I wish same thing would happen to SC2 but at this point I almost lost all the hope
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Yeah, they asked what can be done so that PvT becomes playable with a decent win ratio, and I didn't encounter that many suggestions. Mostly complains, and most of them don't even consider the main issue.
Either the people commenting are in denial that even the best protosses don't find an answer to the current balance state, or they don't even know about it.
I think that something which can be done about it is delaying one of the routes which a terran player can go for in this match-up.
The main difference with the prepatch (where protoss doesn't really differs in the early game), is that terran has way more ways to harass early on and the protoss can't really scout what would that be. The new tools are the cyclone and the more powerful tank.
Therefore, I think an upgrade should be added to the factory tech-lab which will delay the use of cyclones (or widowmines). For example, either:
1. Roll back the range the cyclones had (4) and the upgrade which increased their range back to 6 in the factory tech lab, or
2. Remove the bonus damage widow mines do to shields and make an upgrade in the tech lab which will allow widow mines do bonus damage to shields. (it won't prevent them 1 shooting bunch of lings, banes, or probes)
I think both can help PvT. The second one considers only the PvT match-up so may be its the preferred one.
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So happy to see Blizzard trying to improve their game...
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Hopefully there will be some changes soon.
In my opinion Blizzard never really was brave enough to change terran. Just look at the "we want to make mech more viable" point. Maybe it is just not viable enough because bio is too strong? And blizzard never really did something about that.
I mean, zerg had times where some unit compositions were OP ... roach/ ravager in the beginning, BL/investor, swarmhosts ... what happened ... it got nerfed (and rightfully so).
Toss had some OP unit compositions ... blink stalkers, strong colossi in HOTs, adepts ... what happened ... it got nerfed (and again, rightfully so).
For Terran BIO was nearly always the more viable option.
So if Blizzard really wants to make mech more viable ... why they don't have the courage to nerf bio? Just like they nerfed Z and P playstyles?
I just don't get it. The only nerf terran got i can remember was the small marauder nerf with lotv ... but that's just irrelevant, cause marines are much more important anyways and on the other hand the mech units that were added over the time are working extremely good with bio style (especially widow mine and Liberator or tankivac ... which got removed i know, but you can't count that as a BIO nerf).
If Blizzard wants to make Mech more powerful, don't add units which work better with bio style anyways.
Zyclone was a step in the right direction, and i also think the actual tank is in an okay state.
But widow mines and Liberator are useless for a mech style, und in combination with themselfes - and with tanks and very mobile bio - its just too much.
Remove +shield damage for the widow mines would be a good first step i think. Also wouldn't affect the usibility against Z ling baneling styles.
But in the end Blizzard should remove the Liberator completely i think. It is just a bad designed unit which fulfilles a role other terran units already are fulfilling.
Maybe adding something like the BW Goliath instead ... that would really help mech style and wouldn't just be another addition towards a mainly bio style army
What i personally dislike the most about terran is the inbalance between tier 1/2 und tier 3 units. Protoss has strong carriers (and they should be as strong, i think), zerg has strong ultras and BL but thors and BCs are not good at all. Again, maybe that's also the case because a lot of the cheaper and faster-to-build tier 1 and 2 units are simply too strong .. but thor and BC could use a buff so we can see it more in high level games. At least reducing building time or something like that would surely help.
Just hoping there will be some changes soon ...
As much as i like the effort from blizzard to work und communicate with the community ... feedback updates like that one where not one change is done ... don't know, i just don't see any additional value in such postings.
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I think they should not change bio, not for the sake of change.
Because imo bio is one thing about starcraft that is great.
With good micro and multitasking you can make these units incredibly strong, while without good micro you will fall behind.
Give byun 16 marines 2 medivacs or give it to a random pro, that makes a huge difference (sure that can be said to many things).
The problem is that starcraft has too many things where just one race is able to micro and the other can just minimize the damage or take huge losses, which results in frustration.
These are for example: archon bombs or mmm vs lings at mineral lines.
Imo good things were tankivac micro vs ravagermicro, bling/ling splits vs marine marauder splits and early game micro fights where 3-5 units interact with each other. I think in tvt and pvp we see most of these.
And that is also what can make great VODs and is viewerfriendly.
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On January 23 2017 02:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:No wonder they don't talk to anyone from the community... SC2 might dodged the toxicity bullet (which is being raised Avilo anyway), but it is the most negative community in the gaming industry. There is nothing that Blizzard can do because it's double edge sword, u satisfy one ppl and 10 other started flaming and being vocal. At this point I'm glad they keep the money and casual updates rolling. But I would not be suprised that one day someone retired from Blizzard will publicly agrees with me with fact that working with this community which is like 95% negative about anything Blizz came with was "pain in the a*s" I started playing in late hots, but I still belive the main source of problem for SC2 is the diversed and negative community.. P.S: I'm glad that at least BW guys working together and are somehow united and I wish same thing would happen to SC2 but at this point I almost lost all the hope
Your point is valid if Blizzard did its job well or even semi-well by listening to the community. Hell, they have a mega long beta testing asking for community's input.
Instead of removing photon overcharge, they replaced it with pylon overcharge.
Instead of reducing libs range, they give z faster spore burrow time. When it is not enough, they buff queens AA range.
Instead of reverting marauders double attacks, Blizzard upgrade snipes to counter ultralisk.
And Protoss has been complaining about lack of dps especially from stalkers for ages, & they get DT blink instead.
DT blink, baneling +10hp, invulnerable nydus, perms cloaked investors, tankivacs, teleport BC, reaper grenades, 8armor ultra are some of the random bufffs that DK's team randomly pulls out of their asses without input from the community.
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"we wanted to congratulate everyone that has contributed towards making the game the way it is"
well, the game today is :
- if not dead vastly unsuccesful compared to where it used to be ;
- plagued with design and balance issues far worse than the ones we had in early HotS for instance. Each expansion solved some problems but came with a whole bunch of new ones, so that in the end the state of the game never really improved - and this was bound to happen since they decided to make 2 expansions and to add units for the sake of adding units with each expansion to justify the sell price. Who can say that the game wouldn't be better - or at least had any hope of reaching a succesful state - if we were working around a version without the liberator, the swarm host and the adept for instance ? Moreover, every big patch came with stupidly random things that just make the game so confusing you lose the will to play it even if you really love the game - I do, or at least I did, believe me.
so yeah I think we should all congratulate ourselves because we - the community with its constant whining and general bad attitude is at least equally responsible for all of this than the dev team - committed the perfect murder. And the victim is not just SC2, I think we're not going to get another good rts for quite some time now, if ever, which is a huge shame.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
i started playing bio + mech instead of pure mech recently and improved my win rate by like 50%
so yeah, mech should see some improvements again imo
one could star with combining mech&air weapon upgrades again
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to be honest i dont think siege tanks are the problem in tvp... nerfing terran at this point doesnt help the game in my oppinion. why not change/buff certain protoss things. for example change the sentry´s a bit, let them be a shield regenarator for example...
reducing the shield damage of widow mines brings us back to what we had with the nerfed mines in hots. protoss would just go mass zealot + archon again and terran cant get ghosts out early enough to deal with that.
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And one more time!
Protoss need reliable ground comp vs zerg! Nerf carriers but do somthing to zerg, cause baneling + w/e destroys everything. FF is unreliable and easily countered (too much gaz investement). Roach/ravager is cheap as fck.
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On January 23 2017 02:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:No wonder they don't talk to anyone from the community... SC2 might dodged the toxicity bullet (which is being raised Avilo anyway), but it is the most negative community in the gaming industry. There is nothing that Blizzard can do because it's double edge sword, u satisfy one ppl and 10 other started flaming and being vocal. At this point I'm glad they keep the money and casual updates rolling. But I would not be suprised that one day someone retired from Blizzard will publicly agrees with me with fact that working with this community which is like 95% negative about anything Blizz came with was "pain in the a*s" I started playing in late hots, but I still belive the main source of problem for SC2 is the diversed and negative community.. P.S: I'm glad that at least BW guys working together and are somehow united and I wish same thing would happen to SC2 but at this point I almost lost all the hope
I disagree with this, because ever since LotV beta, they have not even had a guiding light for their own game. They aren't working towards a design goal. This isn't growing pains. They have never worked on a solution to the problems. They don't have a long term plan.
They are simply trying to deal with balance issues as they come, and dealing these PR updates every week, disguised as working with the community, when in reality they do whatever they want in the end anyway.
The straw that broke the camels back was in LotV beta when the lead designer straight up said that he chose against the better design of the game in order to please "some people in the community that has a false perception". Its his JOB to give us the best damn design he is capable of. And he intentionally made the choice against doing that.
Since then, they have never came back on track. They promise us major "design" changes, and give us a half baked balance update where most the changes are reverted in the end anyway. They don't have any long term plan at all, and that's destined to fail.
Sorry, but there's no way in hell I'm going to support a development team that does not even take the time to develop a solid plan for the games future. I gave them more money than I should have, and will not be giving them anymore unless they somehow regain strong leadership. This team has proven their not capable. The leader designer did not give us the best design he could, and when that happens, everything else underneath falls apart.
You can say it's just "negativity in the community", but the level of incompetence that this team has shown, is unlike anything I've ever seen out of Blizzard. Ever.
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Besides, designers should not look at what the community want, they should look at the community for inpiration/ideas, nothing more nothing less.
Its THEIR JOB to design this game, not ours.
And, obviously since its the internet and lots of people are on the internet, its pure logic that alot of posts are "garbage" and not "constuctive", thats why they need to ignore stuff like that and focus on posts that matter - again, thats their job not ours.
Besides all of that, they can COMMUNICATE EVEN BETTER. For example, if they have an issue in their game that they think they have, they can communicate that, give some examples of gameplay issue with theory and how it works in practice and ask specific questions such as "If baneling was buffed in this sitaution, you think it could mean zerg can be offensive here", "Terran opens 1rax CC into 3rax marauder/marines with fast stimpack upgrade and then walks to protoss, if mothership core was removed here- What could be the options to do here for protoss to measure with terrans power?"
The more specific you are instead of asking very broad questions the better posts you get as well.
Right now when people answer in general all they need to do is put some emotion into it and express it. If the poster needs to think, you will get a post with more meaning and thought.
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On January 25 2017 05:26 Foxxan wrote:
Besides, designers should not look at what the community want, they should look at the community for inpiration/ideas, nothing more nothing less.
Its THEIR JOB to design this game, not ours.
And, obviously since its the internet and lots of people are on the internet, its pure logic that alot of posts are "garbage" and not "constuctive", thats why they need to ignore stuff like that and focus on posts that matter - again, thats their job not ours.
Besides all of that, they can COMMUNICATE EVEN BETTER. For example, if they have an issue in their game that they think they have, they can communicate that, give some examples of gameplay issue with theory and how it works in practice and ask specific questions such as "If baneling was buffed in this sitaution, you think it could mean zerg can be offensive here", "Terran opens 1rax CC into 3rax marauder/marines with fast stimpack upgrade and then walks to protoss, if mothership core was removed here- What could be the options to do here for protoss to measure with terrans power?"
The more specific you are instead of asking very broad questions the better posts you get as well.
Right now when people answer in general all they need to do is put some emotion into it and express it. If the poster needs to think, you will get a post with more meaning and thought.
Exactly.
These aren't the type of questions a development team would really ask if they were trying to do what's best for the game. That's one of the (many) reasons you can tell this is pure PR on Blizzards part, and not genuine.
What's best for the game isn't minimizing complaints, trying to make it look as if people are happy when they are not, or claiming theres no issues with the game.
People wouldn't mind the current state being bad if they were working towards something bigger. I work in software development and know this situation personally - sometimes you can be in the middle of growing pains where systems are only partially implemented, and things will not be ideal, employees will complain. But if you have a plan, management can simply tell them to simply be patient, and in time, once the vision is complete, they will see why things were implemented that way, and be happier in the end.
That's normal in software development. But if you look in their history ever since HotS, the SC2 development team has NOT done that. They do changes on a whim, not working towards a bigger goal, and tell people "just accept it", when the current situation is clearly not ideal.
If things are clearly not ideal, and developers claim to be working on it, we should be working towards a final vision.
After all these community updates, has DK showed any sort of vision of where he sees SC2 in a year or 2 from now? He doesn't even know what to do in this update and needs to ask the community for ideas....
This is exactly why I am upset with SC2's direction, and the developers. The game is not being treated like it should be if they actually wanted it to thrive. They are treating it like it is not a priority. They are leaving customers hanging, expecting more, IMPLYING that they will be giving it more, but not delivering, and blaming the community as the reason they do not do anything. Basically keeping the community on the hook, keeping their hopes up, but neglecting to take further steps.
You want to talk about causing harm in a community and making it negative? No better way to breed negativity than to blame your community for the feelings they are having. Negative feedback is often the most valuable feedback.
All signs say it's likely they are working on another RTS (or possibly the HD BW revival) for a competitive RTS game, and SC2 has been demoted to coop/mission packs, as that's where the bulk of development is going.
And with SC2 being a game that's intended to be primarily competitive, I can not support that at all.
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On January 25 2017 04:04 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2017 02:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote:No wonder they don't talk to anyone from the community... SC2 might dodged the toxicity bullet (which is being raised Avilo anyway), but it is the most negative community in the gaming industry. There is nothing that Blizzard can do because it's double edge sword, u satisfy one ppl and 10 other started flaming and being vocal. At this point I'm glad they keep the money and casual updates rolling. But I would not be suprised that one day someone retired from Blizzard will publicly agrees with me with fact that working with this community which is like 95% negative about anything Blizz came with was "pain in the a*s" I started playing in late hots, but I still belive the main source of problem for SC2 is the diversed and negative community.. P.S: I'm glad that at least BW guys working together and are somehow united and I wish same thing would happen to SC2 but at this point I almost lost all the hope I disagree with this, because ever since LotV beta, they have not even had a guiding light for their own game. They aren't working towards a design goal. This isn't growing pains. They have never worked on a solution to the problems. They don't have a long term plan. They are simply trying to deal with balance issues as they come, and dealing these PR updates every week, disguised as working with the community, when in reality they do whatever they want in the end anyway. The straw that broke the camels back was in LotV beta when the lead designer straight up said that he chose against the better design of the game in order to please "some people in the community that has a false perception". Its his JOB to give us the best damn design he is capable of. And he intentionally made the choice against doing that. Since then, they have never came back on track. They promise us major "design" changes, and give us a half baked balance update where most the changes are reverted in the end anyway. They don't have any long term plan at all, and that's destined to fail. Sorry, but there's no way in hell I'm going to support a development team that does not even take the time to develop a solid plan for the games future. I gave them more money than I should have, and will not be giving them anymore unless they somehow regain strong leadership. This team has proven their not capable. The leader designer did not give us the best design he could, and when that happens, everything else underneath falls apart. You can say it's just "negativity in the community", but the level of incompetence that this team has shown, is unlike anything I've ever seen out of Blizzard. Ever.
Yep, exactly. It's not the community being negative in response to changes. It's the community responding to terrible change, after change, after change that doesn't impact the game or address blatant issues.
Enough with the SJW: SC2 edition please. If someone is doing a terrible job call them out on it.
Why are swarmhosts not addressed yet after the "mech viability" patch?
Invincible nydus?
8 armor ultras left in game for 1+ yr.
Warp prism pick-up?
Parasitic bomb?
Mass ravens?
3 rax reaper?
List goes on. We've gone in circles for years now. Myself, you, others have tried the nice guy lovey dovey approach MANY a time. It falls on deaf ears and every now and then SC2 blizzard will simply put out a "PR community update" that essentially says a whole of of nothing and then they do a whole lot of nothing.
How else should the community respond when the updates/patches are infrequent as hell and when they do come up they always miss the mark every time?
This game has no direction in terms of balance and it hasn't for years. The fact we're all destined to watch the same 16 marine drop game ever since the swarmhost patch proves they have no idea what they're doing and a refusal to listen and acknowledge the problems.
I mean if it wasn't clear enough that they don't want to listen - i was banned from the battle.net forums for posting feedback about 3 rax reaper a while ago because they don't want your feedback or mine anymore. They (meaning dkim?) will patch balance as they see fit, regardless if the entire community wants things like mech viability for years.
That is the honest to god truth. It's depressing, but oh well.
The most recent "huge game update" for "mech viability" made mech worse than it ever has been and should more appropriately be called the "swarm host patch."
A lot of other people that play mech have tried for years to ask for mech viability and this entire last 1-2 months try to get blizzard to acknowledge swarmhosts are ridiculous vs mech atm. Still no word after 3 community updates. How do we even know some of the developers play their own game atm or get feedback from playtesters when they don't even acknowledge how ridiculous swarmhosts are?
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
